ok tell me what it would take to do a 3.8 v6 gtp motor with the sc

 

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/sear...archid=3416841

 

Umm, link not working.

Do you want to cut a hole in your firewall for an air filter? Cause that's the first thing you need to do.

 

Here's another dumb question, does the transverse mounted gtp engine bolt up to a 200 or 7004R? My 89 Turbo T/A has a front wheel drive transverse 3.8 block done up similar to the grand nationals (the gn V6's were too wide to fit between the strut towers, that is why front wheel drive blocks were used). I thought that would be a cool conversion on a newer 4th gen.

 

They didn't use a FWD block in the TTA, they used FWD heads...

 

Better check again buddy!!! Why do you think the oil dipstick is under the firewall? I have had both the engines out of my gn and tta out side by side and they are not the same

 

No idea

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/engi...nal-3-8-a.html

Or

What makes the 20th Anniversary Turbo TA so special is that it is a complete mechanical package, and not just some tape stripes. Starting with the engine, Pontiac borrowed Buick's 3.8 liter (231cid) V6 turbo powerplant from the fabled 1986-87 Grand National. Some difference exist between the TTA motor and the GN version. Different heads were necessary in order to squeeze the motor between the strut towers. These heads, adapted from the transverse FWD version of the 3.8 liter motor, have the added benefit of improved exhaust flow and combustion chamber design. Subsequently, different pistons were required in order to maintain combustion chamber volume. Other changes to the TTA motor are a cross-drilled crank, larger 12 fin/inch GNX-style intercooler in place of the GN's 10 fin/inch design, specially-designed stainless-steel headers, higher-pressure Bosch 237 fuel pressure regulator, and a recalibrated engine control module.

from http://forums.finalgear.com/general-...and-pic-10223/


Please find me a single reference to the TTA motor being a FWD block.

 

It's the same block......

 

He won't because he has no idea as to what he's talking about.

 

Me and my dad had both powerplants out around 12 years ago. The gn had a rope style rear main seal, and tta had a rubber one. Also the pistons were different, heads were different. It was a long time ago, the blocks may have been the same, but they were not identical motors by any means. Seeing the rubber rear main seal I assumed that this was a newer generation 3.8 block. I bought an 89 turbo t/a from St. Louis my dad wrote it off and we had everything changed over onto an 86 Firebird. Cut the roof, put the t-tops in and everything. My dad was rebuilding his Grand national at the same time. We had them side by side and seemed to me that they were similar but different, the different rear main seal made us think that the tta was a different block all together, we did'n't tear the tta motor down past the short block. If I am wrong then my bad, up here in Canada no one knows what this car is and we had a heck of a time trying to get parts for it. It is not my intention to lead people on or misinform anyone about it.

 

Talk in circles more. So which is it? A FWD block or the blocks are the same?

THE BLOCKS ARE THE SAME THING, PERIOD, END OF DISCUSSION. No one is debating the pistons, main seal, crank etc are the same or different. We all know they're different. You keep saying they used a FWD block because it wouldn't fit between the strut towers. The TTA motor used FWD heads.

 

When I seen the newer type rear main seal, I assumed it was a front wheel drive block, because I know that GN's used the older style rope seal for the rear mains and they didn't have the newer type rear main seal in rear wheel drive 3.8 V6 til the 4th gen F-bodies came out. If I am wrong than like I said before my bad, I am not going to get worked up over it, as I am clearly not an expert and I didn't take the TTA motor down to the bare block. My TTA wasn't original anyways, it had a rough life before I bought, being stolen twice and crashed once.

 

Of course you're not gonna get all worked up because you were easily proven wrong. Sorry for being a dick but someone with 6 posts comes in here puffing out their chest like they know something when they don't. You tell a senior member who knows a thing or two to go check his info again, like you know some top secret information that know else knows when everyone and their grandmother knows they're the same blocks...

Just saying....

 

I learned a long time ago, not everything you read or find on the internet is fact. When someone thinks they are right they are gonna argue. I am not a professional mechanic and to me the two blocks looked different in fact there were bout half a dozen of us who concluded it was the front wheel drive block because of the rear main seal. When I try to order parts up here (hickville Canada) for the TTA the parts guy refuses to believe that the 3.8 was put in at the factory and not a conversion. I heard about the car before I found one for sale and thought I was looking for a camaro at first. It is my pet peeve to read wrong info, and now I gotta tell everyone I told it was a different block that it is indeed the same thing. Anyways sorry for the confusion I was mistaken.

 

*shrug* **** happens. For a long time, in the v6 section, we were told that 1.6 rockers wouldn't clear our valve covers. Like, 6 years later, it turns out that's not the case.

 

lol na i want it to be kinda like that new storm ls9 camaro no cuting

 

Someone did the 3.8 S/C V6 swap in an Oldsmobile Cutlass, I don't remember the link but they had to cut and beat the living crap out of the firewall just to get the engine in there. It is WAY more hassle than it is worth. As for the TTA powerplant, The blocks are indeed identical but they used the FWD Buick cylinder heads to shoe horn the engine in there as some have already said. This is indeed fact. I believe it was the Lesabre that they borrowed the heads from, but do not quote me on that. The 3.8 S\C is a good engine in its own right but it is going to take a tremendous amount of work just to get it to sit between the frame rails. A normally aspirated 3.8 would be much easier. That is why most people just give up on these ideas and put an LSx/LTx or hybrid in instead. Less $$$ and hassle. For that matter, you could probably turbo your 3.4 for less $$$ than the 3.8 swap, and more than likely put out more power than the S\C'd 3.8 with a good tune.

 

Here's the link....http://www.grandprixforums.net/1986-...7-swap-36.html


notice the extensive firewall mods.

 

An Oldsmobile Cutlass and a 3rd gen are way different.

If folks can put big blocks in a 3rd gen, you can fit any 6.

 

No doubt they are different, just saying its crap loads of work to do.

 

TTA heads have a specific casting number # but are identacle to 3.8 heads found on -

86/87 Buick LaSabre
86/87 Buick Riviera
86/87 Buick Electra
86/87 Olds Cutlass & Tornado
86/87 Delta 88
87/88 Pontiac Bonneville

as well as a few other 86/87 3.0 FWD BOP's

 

There is the list I was looking for and I knew the Lesabre was one of the cars that used those heads.

 

If you're really interested in a supercharged 3.8 why not look into a paxton charger? That would be an interesting combo in a 3rd gen.

 

well i got two 305s a lt4 383 and a 400 sbc that i could put in there but then thats no fun im kina diging th tta what will still work when i but that motor in i want my ac ps and pbs i want it to look stock kinda like a what if the 25 anvesry car was like the tta

 

Lol, I never heard that, my V6 has 1.6 roller rockers too.

 

So you have a 400SBC and a stroked LT4 laying around and you're going to waste your time and a ton of money on a L67 swap? It's your money but dude, it's a bit foolish. A TON of work and $$ for half of the results of a good SBC swap. Being different can be cool...but at what point is it just better to take a lighter to a big stack of $100 bills?

Even doing a TTA motor swap is costly and not worth it...trust me, I've done one on a previous car.

Any SBC swap will allow you to retain all of the amenities. You want a stock look and you're thinking L67? Really? There will be nothing stock looking about that swap or any 3.8 for that matter.

 

Shouldn't the bellhousing bolt pattern be different between the old 3.8 GN RWD block and the FWD metric block?

 

I want to say it is, I want to say the RWD is a 90* pattern and the FWD is a 60* pattern but I'm not 100% sure.

 

fly, I think your correct because the L67 is put into fieros day after day, and that trans has the 60* pattern.

I think some of the northstars do also.

 

Last time I had one out of a lesabre it looked like a 60* bolt pattern. Trying to picture it right now...

 

the GN/TTA 3.8 should have the BOP pattern, the FWD 3.8's and the 4th gen 3.8's all have the metric corporate pattern which is the same as the 60v6 engines.

 

Yeah, that's actually correct.

 

I had to log out so I could read your post, so I could member why you were on my ignore list.

What ever your still smoking, stop.

A TTA motor isn't worth it, do a SBC????

Put down the pipe.

1 engine will easily run 9s with little work, no V8 front end push, still can be a daily driver and the other engine will not run 9s without lots of cash. Where if you take that cash to make the SBC run 9s, Hello 7s in a Turbo6


Gen1 SBC are boat anchors compared

You have to go BB or LS+ to get the same ammount of grins a turbo6 will serve up. Even all bone stock.

[music stops half way through, then its mostly Turbo6 spool......]
http://www.buickthunderforum.com/files/Burnouts.wmv

 

LOL, a LC2 will "easily" run 9's with a "little work"? Are you seriously on crack? I've DONE the LC2 swap. It is NOT easy NOR cheap. BTW, have you owned one? No, so please have a warm cup of STFU. Those motor don't "easily" run 9's with a "little work" It takes A LOT of work to make ANY motor consistently run and reliably run 9's. Can they easily run 11's? Sure, it doesn't take much but they're still not as reliable, pound for pound as a SBC, PERIOD. But back to your baseless and fact-less claim that they easily run 9's. Build one, list mods and prices that will "easily" get you into the 9's. No really, list the mods, parts and work that would need to be done to get you into the 9's with that motor. You'll see how easy it "isn't". BTW, should I bring my buddy Steve into this discussion, you know, the guy that's owned 4 TTA's and has a high 9 second LC2 powered GTA...he can tell you EXACTLY how "little" it costs to go 9's. I'm sure he'd love to share that with you and show you the receipts and the amount of man hours he's had to put into that car to get it consistently running what it was.

BTW, where did I mention Gen1 SBC? YOU said Gen1, not me. The LS1's and variations are still considered small blocks, I didn't specify Gen1, 2, 3, 4 etc. You want to assume I meant Gen1 because it supports your ridiculous argument. If you notice he also has a stroked LT4 which...OMG, ISN'T a Gen1(so you're grasping at straws here in order to make me look bad, for whatever reason you don't like me(which is fine lol)). You're absolutely right, the way to go is LSx, they're better than any motor out there, they are THE perfect balance of power, MPG and street-ability . But, since your reading comprehension seems to be lacking he did say he had 2 nice motors already, hence me stating what I stated. Follow along please. We're in absolute 100% agreement about a LSx swap.

So please, stop with your BS, keep me on ignore. I've done the LC2 swap, you haven't. I've owned one of the motors, you haven't. You can go back to your regularly scheduled program now, stop coming in here with your chest all puffed out and let us guys talk about this, kiddie play time is over. I've been wrong plenty of times, will admit when I'm wrong but dude, you're WAY off on this, completely off in every bit of your argument(aside from the LSx point). You can post as many cool little videos as you'd like, facts and dollar figures don't lie.(and LOL@running "7's"...again.....what are you talking about? You have no concept of racing or money do you? Have you even been to the track to truly see and appreciate the $$ and time spent to having a REALLY fast car????)

Though I am envious of you, I've never seen hood pins on a hatch before....I'm very jealous.

 

No a TTA motor isnt worth it, after 11 years of messing with turbo buick engines I got my first LS1 and realized what I had been missing. And will never go back, and I sold off all but one of my TTA's lol.

What little work will it take to make a TTA go 9's? It's never been done with a stock block or even with stock TTA heads, takes a stage motor or at least aftermarket heads and a big pair of ***** hoping that stock block stays together. And 7's in a TTA? As far as I know its never been done, fastest I know of has gone 8.15 in a twin turbo powered stage 2 block and heads car and there's more in that car than in my house.

Not saying they cant run good, my GTA has a TTA motor in it that was bored .020 over, stuffed with JE pistons and a billet roller cam conversion, ported and polished TTA heads with larger valves, 1.7 roller rockers, ported lower intake with precision plenum and 65mm throttle body, large front mounted air/air intercooler, 83# injectors, a precision 70mm h-cover turbo with a precision .63 housing and a p-trim wheel. Backed by a turbo 400 with a converter that would push well past 4K on the transbrake, and a 3.42 geared 12 bolt pushed my 3600lbs GTA to 10.50's at 129mph. And it was one of the fastest TTA powered cars around. I dont know about you but that doesnt seem like only a little work, and if you want to run it like I do the maintinence is a pain too. But then most turbo buicks dont see 200 passes at the track in their lifetime, I put 200 passes on a year.

If your gonna swap engines, there is no reason not to put an LS1 in it. In fact you'd be crazy not to. I know people will say but everyone is doing it, well there is a reason Hot Rod magazine proclaimed it to be the hottest engine in America. And it's lightweight, ease of making power, driveability, reliability, and fuel economy are all part of it. Not to mention GM and the aftermarket are going full steam ahead making tons of parts for performance and replacement. Try getting parts for a TTA, I have it's not fun.

It's your car and your choice, but please dont make the same mistake I did lol

Steve

 

And Tony, get your facts straight I've had 5 TTA's lol #124, 850, 861, 884, and 1461 Now only 884 remains.

 

That's wrong, and your forgetting about the total weight factor of the vehicle. An LC2 can be made to run into the nine's, yes, but your not going to get there at under 20-psi of boost in a full weight vehicle, its just not going to happen. So what does that mean for the LC2, it means constant head gasket issues because of the 20+psi needed to get you there, and trust me, its a pain in the @ss every other weekend, even with cometics. A V8, depending on how it is worked, can run nines at 15-psi, with some being under. Have you ever looked at an LC2 cylinder head? The intake valves are very limited in size, a crappy 1.84" SBC intake valve would be considered a "big block" valve in comparison to the LC2's 1.71" valve, and speaking of the 1.84" SBC valve, as crappy as it is, it isn't too far away from the best head offered in the Buick world, the Champion GN1 which has 1.90" (so you can imagine the power to be made at 2.02" plus in the V8 world). The only disadvantage the SBC has is the weight of the engine and gas consumption, but the power that can be made at such lower boost levels more than makes up for the weight. Remember that cubic inches makes for more torque, and more torque equals to more calculated horsepower depending on the amount of air you can squeeze in. There's just no way around it. Think of it this way, would you rather make 800HP at 30-psi, or 800HP at 15-psi? Not to mention, think of the air temp factor, even when using alky. That is the difference that cubic inches can make....

 

EDIT: Never mind, I'm retarded(which I'm sure everyone already knows lol)

 

I think we can conclude that getting into the single digits certainly isn't easy or cheap (particularly the latter) as anyone that has track time can attest. Running that fast gets exponenitally more expensive. LSx motors have some killer heads that need little work to run some great #'s too but that not relevant. So how 'bout swapping in a fwd 3.8 and turbocharging it? Anyone have guesses at how much pressure the plastic manifold would take before cracking?

 

The l67 has been done in 4th gen f-bodies and it's not easy. the "easiest" way is to strip down the S/C casing, cut the TB snout off and weld an elbow on it to get the TB to face forward - much like the Aussies got in the Commodore(? I think).

To get any car in the single digits is going to cost some coin. I just sold the fuel pump off my friend's GN that was running 9's on a stock block.

As far as the whole "swap in a v8" well, that's just to each their own - after all this IS the v6 section!

Someone tried that at the Grassroots $2010 Challenge, copied our car except instead of using a 2.5l inline six with a big turbo, they put in an lm4 with Camaro ls1 intakes on it, and we blew their doors off. This is a fact, I was there and worked on the 2.5 car, check it out in the April 2011 issue of Grassroots MotorSports mag. We had a 5 page spread in Feb 2010 issue as well. Dollar for dollar, we had the better car as our budget came in at $1960 for all the parts bolted on the car, they were right on the allowed budget. Didn't help that thier car weighed over 500lbs more than ours either...

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/med...30-pregame.jpg

I know for a fact we can easily get 400+hp from a turbo FWD 60v6, also done that. We put a turbo 3400 on the rollers and the trans spilled it's guts at 350whp and no where near the redline. Not bad for an engine that weighs just a hair over 300lbs dressed

Oh, and a turbo 3800 has gone 8.90's, that's proof enough for me.

I agree on he cent supercharger, much easier to get in the f-body chassis. We built 10 supercharger kits for the 3800 4th gens, it's a bolt-on at that point, modding the firewall won't work well unless you are drawing your intake through the cabin, or like I said before, weld a new elbow on the supercharger case.

 

You already have a 3.4 and you're thinking of swapping it out for something else? I'd say you got a good motor, think about doing a trans swap for a 5 or 6 speed. Of course that's a completely different area and we're talking about motors here, so my take on this is keep the 3.4 because it sounds like way more work to put in a 3.8 than I'd be interested in.

 

The only way I would consider swapping a V6 into a car is if I had a spare one lying around and the engine that was in there was either too small or a blown V8 that wasn't rebuildable. You can go to a junkyard find a 400 small block out of an old motorhome or van or whatever they put them in pull it out buy a nice cam find a set of vortech heads or use your own top end if the old motor was a V8. There are more of them out there than you think and they will bolt right up. If you go with a carb it is one of the easiest swaps you can do. Even going with a big block isn't a hard swap with chevy stuff. Going with V6 is much more complicated and expensive and if you are keeping it stock you are not impressing anyone forced induction or not. If you are an eccentric millionaire than why not, things need to be thought out or you will end up like me many different projects in various stages of completion and don't back to them for years....

Did they put Northstars in FWD cars?? What was the motor in the Oldsmobile Aurora?

 

Northstar motors came almost only in FWD cars.

 

Not only that, but using FWD heads will make a much much stronger engine than the 3800. The 3500 was rated at the same power as the l67, only the 3500 weighs about #250lbs less.

Again, this is the v6 section, the OP is talking about swapping in a v6 for a v6. The Aurora engine is dubbed the "ShortStar" since it was a v6 variant of the Caddy NorthStar. That engine was put in a RWD Cavi, twin turbo'd and ran a mid-6 second ET with the Summit team a few years ago. That's impressive for even a V8 to run

To convert a v6 to a v8, it's more than "bolting the engine right up" since the transmission bellhousing for the v6 (well since the 3.8l was nixed for the 3800) and all 4cyls use the GM small corporate pattern, the trans would also have to be replaced, along with all the regular stuff like the accys, motor mounts etc etc. And so yeah, let's go to a carbed early v8 that made what 250bhp over a lighter 200+hp v6? Adding 300+lbs to a car to add a couple of HP seems like a waste of time to me. If you want a v8 car, buy a v8 car, why hassle with a swap?

Don't get me wrong, I have a small shop and have done conversions and even own a v8 car and truck, as well as a v10 truck, v6 car, and an i6 car (I know, I know, why do I need 5 cars...). Anyways, just last summer I took a wrecked '95 GT 5.0 and transferred all the parts over to a donor v6 car, but why the client did all that was beyond me. Took me almost 40hrs, charged him $1400 (plus another $300 on various parts), he had to buy a clean v6 car that cost him $2000, and he had to buy the GT back from the insurance company that cost him another $800. SO, was it worth it to spend over $4k on a car that he could have probably bought for the same price (or less) without the hassle? Even if he didn't pay me and did the job himself, which would have taken forever in a back yard without a lift among other proper equipment - he still could have bought a decent v8 car for a little more than the $3100 he paid just for the vehicles/parts.

 

He could bolt a 3800 (corporate pattern) to his existing trans. Figuring out the motor mounts and acessories is another problem, but swapping in a 3x00 60* would have similar challenges, unless you swapped everything to a rwd block sans cam & oil pan. A rwd block dressed with fwd stuff would pretty much plop in. I only put ~$1700 into my motor so far, another $3-400 and I'll have twin turbos on it. Then the trans becomes the weak link.

 

What are you gonna do for tuning your fuel curve? Those rising rate adjustable fuel pressure regulators are not enough. R U gonna go with auxilary injectors on your twins? Will it be intercooled? Just curious.

 

You can tune the ECM to handle it, just need big enough injectors to handle the fueling needs.

 

Does the fuel pump need to be upgraded too? Does the prom chip need to be replaced or does he have an ecm that can be reflashed? If you can reflash, what do you need to do that and can you get fuel curves from the net? What about the sensors if you are pressuring an N/A 3800? Sorry bout the questions, I have a 95 V6 camaro that I was going to drop a 383 into, but a turbo 6 is more fun to drive; especially with a laggy oversized turbo Plus I got a ton of turbo stuff lying around, Just need exhaust manifolds.

 

95 Camaro is very different then what we have.

 

ok one my dad has a ls2 gto i did the moto up in that for him and i had a 11s trans am sold i have my 10 supra for all the killikg its a 86 mk2 supra not the nice big ones lol and i want to stay v6 i just like it cuse im not a nother camaro with just a v8 loo at the new mustang v6 the yellow and black ones
any why i want to see 12s that it its my dd i still want good mpg out of it nd want the 3.4 to last long time and two i dont want to drop alot of money in to the 3.4 and then it blows up thats the only thing thats worrying me i have fully bult 700r4 and 373 pois rearend so all thats done i woud like to superchagr the 3.4 but theres nothing out there it seem paxton made a kit back in 89 i have the book one that and i have some ?s one the 82-84 z28 cf hood is it litter then the stock steel hood and two why want no one tell me what the pizza box intake cost and fly89gta i have dont alot of motor and i got stuff that would most lily make u cry when u seen it i worked on every thinf form dsm to ford cobras to turbo thunder coups and i am selling my 400 if any one is looking for one is just the block and carnk thow