Well, glad to see that you still have V6 turbo dreams; Fieros aren't that bad!!

I want to address just a few issues with what I have read in this post. I am not understanding why there is such a stigma against the 3.8, versus the smaller 60 degree V6 engines. I mean, the 89 Turbo Trans Am was just the fastest 3rd gen at the dealership, no big deal...

With a new cat-back system, a wastegate mod, and a better air filter you can bust out a 12.99 1/4-mile in a TTA. Why can't you do that in any other third gen, if you use the same engine?

Anyway, I guess how deep you are trying to go is the limiting factor. It would seem though that the amount of time/money to get a 60 degree V6 to roll up with a TTA isn't that far off. Consider also that the parts needed to duplicate the TTA engine are not exotic or excessively high priced. Most of the stuff you can piece together from eBay or junkyards still.

Block - 78 and up even fire 3.8, preferably RWD so you can use the bigger flywheel if you go manual trans (although no one ever does)
Crank - Stock turbo 3.8 crank, 79-87, or RWD 4.1 Buick V6, with rolled filets on the rod journals. You can buy these reground from the auto parts store, or you can get a cheapie forged unit off of eBay. Either piece is equivalent to the TTA/GN piece and can get you a 12 second 1/4-mile time.
Camshaft - Stock GN/TTA grind
Heads - Stock 1988 Buick LeSabre 3.8 or Pontiac bonneville 3.8 heads, pushrods, rockers, etc. These heads were not extensively modified, are readily available in the junkyard and flow better than the RWD heads that Buick had been using on the GN! Pontiac only did it to fit the engine in without modding the heater box too much. It really worked out!
Intake - You can use a stock GN intake (eBay) or aftermarket. My engine is going to use a stock FWD intake from 85-86 time frame, with mods...
Exhaust - Aftermarket headers are available for the TTA, might as well use them
Turbo - Stock GN/TTA piece, reman or off of eBay

The transmission is a GN spec 2004R. You can have your junkyard 2004R modified to take the heat or run a 700R4 with a trans adapter, like this guy did:
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tran...0r4-200r4.html

The TTA fuel pump is the same spec as a late model Vortec pump used in a 97 Suburban with a Vortec 350. Its the pump I run in all my third gens. It does very well.

The ECM is a stock GN piece (same part number) that you could buy from the auto parts store or eBay again. You could also EBL it or Megasquirt it if you wanted to.

My point with all of this is to say, that you don't NEED super expensive black magic parts to make this combo go fast. Most of it will be elbow grease and ingenuity, which you also have to use with your 60* project.

You can also fit this engine in your fiero if you get the trans adapter from West Coast Fiero, and they even make a super duty 5 speed transaxle that will take whatever engine you throw at it!!

Good luck, and keep your options open!!

Here are some other Buick combos:

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/engi...v6-hybrid.html

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/engi...ck-hybrid.html

Yes!!

 

The biggest reason to not go 3.8, is because the cars that have the 60 degree V6 that people will add a turbo to, already have the 60 degree V6 installed and require no hard to find mounts, oil pans, headers/manifolds, or tranny swaps.

When similar performance can be obtained from 1L less displacement with less work, why would you go to anything else?

 

Well, YOU said it; I have not seen similar performance from the one liter less engines. Are there many 60 degrees breaking below the 13 second 1/4 mile?

If they DO break the barrier, what is the REAL cash outlay?

Don't get me wrong; I am a big supporter of you guys. I read lots of what you post up and I learn lots from it. Keep going!

It just seems to me that it can be done with the Buick as well, and more on the downlow with more off the shelf or junkyard parts. I have started gathering up the parts, but I am back in Afghanistan finishing off my house payments first. I will post up what I get done so we can compare all the notes!

Oh, and the oil pan doesn't need modified to fit. The RWD stock pan is good to go. The intakes will fit under the hood stock. The headers ARE aftermarket, but so what? Not many of you guys will be running your stock manifolds either.

The motor mounts are as easy as any other swap, but I do understand that not everyone can fab motor mounts. Once I get mine done I'll start selling them hahahahah.

The tranny doesn't HAVE to be swapped; The 700R4 can be retained with an inexpensive adapter plate or if you DO swap it, SPOHN sells the proper swap kit pieces.

I know its a lot of talk, and I don't have pictures of my stuff, but since this is a forum, talking seems right. Plus it helps to flesh all this stuff out before cash is laid out, no?

Anyway, keep up the good work!

 

Um theres a basically stock(If I recall correctly) 3.4 iron head turbo running 12s, with higher boost and aluminum heads a 60/6 could probably break into 10s, and unlike the 3.8 a 3.4 bolts right in, people don't swap the 3.8 because its as much work and trouble as swapping in a v8, and truthfully the best GM v6 to swap in would be an llt or a 3.9, former will probably be done a couple times once some idiots total their shiny new camaros or CTS's, that and once theres more of an aftermarket for that engine.

 

the buick is a better motor ( dont kill me guys lol)

2 stock motor fbodys going below 13's mine at low boost and 3.4 grape i think is the other guy high boost on a 3.4

buick motor can go into the 10,s/9's on a mostly stock engine ,home ported heads/some intake work turbo/intercooler and meth injection upgrades

the buick combos are well documented pick an et u want to run and u can look p exactly what u need to do to go that fast and there are premade proven chips for just about every combo


not to mention no need to swap heads till u break 9/s

 

Thanks for the solidarity, project 89!

That was the point I wanted to prove, especially on the heads.

Now, since you have some experience with this, why is it that Buick guys don't ever run a clutch pedal. The original poster has a clutch pedal (and so do I) so I think its a valid area to explore...

Thanks!

 

2 reasons come right to mind, when talking about the turbocharged 3.8 n gn ever came with a 5speed so why hack up something worth money to put in a 5 speed and have it be slower at the track

the auto is faster behind a turbo motor period

#2 thrust issue with the buick 3.8
manual transmissions wear out the thrust bearing surface/crank really fast

 

I knew about reason number 1; no turbo Buick V6 ever came with a clutch pedal

No.2 I have to think over carefully. In my Buick Power Source manual there are plenty of stick applications listed in competition form. There are specific settings for thrust listed, and maybe there is an extra good bearing listed too...

Back to the books for me! Thanks!!

 

There hasn't been as many people build the 2.8L as there has the 3.8, so you won't see as many results that show that it is possible, and not very difficult to do so.

Curtis Walker built a 3.1L Iron head turbo back in the mid to late '90s that propelled his Cavalier to 12 second passes, with much more left in the engine, the transaxle couldn't take the 7000+ RPM shifts and getting a street driven 600+ HP FWD Cavalier to hook up proved to be difficult, so the boost was lowered and would use about 400 HP.
89jyturbo has, or maybe had a 12 second turbo 3.4 (internally stock) in his Cavalier.

There have been many turbo 3.1s that have ran in the 13 second bracket, with not very much work, as in bolt on turbos and no internal work.

IIRC that was a gen2 2.8L turbo in a Cavalier that also ran 12s.

Purple86ta (or whatever his handle is on this site) had an N/A 3.4L that went 13s and knockin' on the doors of 12 second passes IIRC, if he broke into 12s in the Cav he'll have to correct me, I know he's shooting to better his time with the same engine in an F-body now, since the RWD will allow for better launches.

If you want to go real wild look at the 2.8L and destroked 60 degree V6s at 2.5L that are making tons of power N/A in midgets and hydroplane boat racing.

I would say that there is no barrier.

Most of the american public is stuck on this "more is better" mentality when a proper selection of of parts in a smaller package can be just as, if not more effective.

 

king bearings has special bearings with larger(wider) and or thicker thrust surfaces, might be worth checking out

 

Nope, they're not bad at all! Even with the stock 2.8 it's a blast to drive and a big head turner! Most people don't know what they're looking at. Now that the project has switched to a different car, I've given the 3.8 a bit more thought and still don't think it's for me, seems like a waste to have all that engine there and not use it lol. A 3500 swap isn't a big consideration, I want it, but I need to read into it a bit more before I can make a decision.

 

its been a long time since ive messed with a fiero, what does one of thse things weigh again?. i know it wasnt really heavy.

im willing to bet if u port matched the intake, ported the heads and threw a cam at it u would be happy as hell with it

if the guy doing the m62 supercharger mount ontop of the stock intake gets it finished that would be a bad lil upgrade for the fiero,

 

They weigh about 2500 to 2800 lbs, I would love to have one, would maybe even replace my camaro with one if I knew they could match it in the bends but idk what their handling is like, in theory it should be good with mid engine rwd layout, but then again all of them but the 88s got suspension components lifted off of family cars...

 

Mine handles alright, tight, stable at high speed. No power steering makes low speed turns a pain at times when having to shift the clunky transmission. My biggest complaint is with the brakes, they SUCK!! With all that it's still fun to drive, a 3.4 with a 5-speed and some suspension mods would make a really fun car to drive from A-B. It's great for a car produced on a very tight budget, if the '88 model would have been the what they produced from the start, they would have sold a lot more. Not to say they didn't sell, they still made money in '88 when it was un-fairly killed off. Idiots...........

 

I wish we would've seen the fiero with a DOHC 3.4 like the protoyopes...

 

Weren't they putting a 305 v8 in them as well?

 

Autozone has an option for a v8, they never came with them, odd. Car pros my butt. Still haven't been able to test fuel pressure under load but I'm sure its a bad pump.

 

bad pumps are pretty common on these cars, even when they still run...=/ Had mine die on me from dead fuel pump yet it still kicked on audibly.

 

I've had 2 walbro pumps die on me within a year, one was a recall that they wouldn't honor a return on and the other was a "good" one. Been running a parts house pump with no problems. The Fiero has a new parts house pump, but it has to be the problem, the thing is very loud too

 

Supposedly it was designed with a v8 in mind from inception, but gm axed that because it might overshadow the vette.

 

Which wasn't very hard to do back then LOL!

 

Finally got to test fuel pressure while driving and saw what I already knew, fuel pressure droped to 10psi under normal driving conditions. Is there anything else I should look at before I pull the pump? An a side note, riding in the trunk is FUN, almost like a roller coaster.

 

Check FPR, the vac hose that goes to it, and the fuel lines and fittings for leaks, beyond that though only thing it could be is the pump.

 

If the line is disconnected, the fp regulator will go to max fuel (just like wide open throttle with no vacuum.)

Which pump will you get? As I said before, I recommend the Vortec 350 truck pump, but you can get the 255 lph pumps like the walbro (different brands) for 50 bucks! The Vortec pump on ebay I got for 25.

 

Looks like I'm gonna have to bite the bullet and replace the pump lol, can't be any harder than our 3rd gens. It'll be a while before I can do it, so I'll check out the regulator, the vac hose and see if there isn't a voltage drop. I'm still open to any suggestions though, sure would hate to replace a good pump just because I didn't check everything.

 

Thank you, I'll give that a try! As for the pump, I'm not sure what I'm going to use, the pump that's in there is only a month old, but I'm pretty sure he installed the cheapest one and I bit me in the butt. The Vortec pump sounds like it should be enough for now and will handle future upgrade

 

Since the car changed, the project did too. I want to avoid the nightmare of fabricating a turbo system in that engine bay, so natural asperation it is. The company I work for is moving 20 miles away in about a year, so reliability, gas milage and emissions are top priority. There are so many possibilities for this car that it's hard to choose lol, but the one that's been in my mind is the LX9. It has a good blend of economy and performance, plus it's a very reliable engine.

 

I have seen the L67 3800 supercharged engine in that bay, and it fits just fine. That roots blower setup replaces most of the intake manifold, so it's not any higher up. The transmission bolt patter is the same GM Metric FWD bolt pattern as all of the car's transaxles.

If you google search the swap, you'll see its pretty straightforward, reliable, fast, and economical.

You can get near 30mpg with those engines in big cars, I bet you can really do well in your little car. For the best economy, you need an overdrive trans. If you go with the 5 speed standard you can bolt on a 4th gen 3800 flywheel, as both engines use the 8 bolt crank flange.

Good luck!!

 

The l67 is a well documented swap, I had to weed through them to find the lx9 stuff! When I have time I'll look at the l67 vs the lx9 swap and take notes. Haven't really gotten that far into the lx9 swap really.

 

An L67 would be a fun motor in a fiero! I would imagine fairly simple too. Look for a wrecked ss monte and nab the powertrain if you get a chance. An LX9 would be fun too but it's grunt vs zip.

 

Most of the fun with this car is the manual transmission. There are no manual transmissions rated to take that much torque. The F40 (6speed) is rated at 260, but it's almost like putting a t5 behind an L98. An L36 would be a good alternative to the LX9 though, now that I think about it.

 

Yea it's hard to find a good transverse transmission.

 

West Coast Fiero sells a modified 5 speed that will take 500 ft lbs

So.....

Anyway, the more I look at it, I am thinking the L67 might go in MY firebird before the turbo 6 does. The flywheel is easy to get, and it will bolt to my T5 bellhousing...

Hmmm...... I might just have a 95 Supercharged Riviera up in Ohio at my disposal...

 

The F40 should handle about 300lb/ft, at least, thats its rating. I've flogged mine at Road America and the track. Its not a great feeling shift action, but you can learn its quirks (Absolutely HATES fast/hard 2-1 downshifts, NEEDs a rev match bad for that). But I easily heel/toe it at Road America.

Also the 06' F40's have a long 2-3 gear. My 06' G6 GTP traps in 3rd gear. On RA I wasn't upshifting into 4th till about 105mph or so. 1st is over by 40, 2nd over by 65 or so, then it carries 3rd to about 105mph, and I've never topped 4th out, brakes gave out long before I reached those speeds so I didn't try. I kept it to about 125mph on RA's main straight. This is with the 3.55's that come with the 06' G6 GTPs

 

Finally replaced the fuel pump and got to feel the full power! Well, now I can get up to speed in a faster manner than before to say the least. Also did some research on the F40 transmission and found out it's a piece of crap (no offence Thirdgen89GTA), which is why it was only produced for a couple years then dropped. Did find out that my 282 can handle 200-275 ft lbs of torque. The rating is a little broad, but shows it can handle an LX9 swap.

 

I'd love to have that, exept the swap alone is $3400, not including the NSX transaxel which has to be quoted because of the variations through the years. I guess if I want power I'll need an automatic..... Then again, if I make the Fiero faster than the Iroc, the Iroc will become useless to me. My plan is to have the Fiero for a peppy, fuel efficient everyday driver to replace my Durango (getting up there in miles) and have the Iroc as the muscle when I want it. So, I'll have my truck (back up), eco car and the muscle car(back up's back up lol), they all would have a purpose. Otherwise I'm just giving money to the insurance company, like I'm not already lol!

 

No offense taken. I never said it was a great transmission. The shift action is clunky and sucks, but its not as bad as most make it out to be. Its a workable transmission. During one 20 minute hot-session at Road America I only mishifted once on a 2-3 upshift coming out of corner 8 going into the carousel. Can't upshift in the carousel so you have to upshift to 3 early thanks to the long 2-3 split.

Its just one of those transmissions that doesn't feel natural, it has to be learned, and man handled.

 

Just said that because some people are touchy when it comes to their cars. I have that problem with the 4speed in the Fiero, racing through the gears will sometimes leads to a scratch, gotta "feel" it into gear.

I'm going to let this thread die off, it's cool to do a thread on the Fiero, but this isn't the place for it and I don't want to get anyone's panties in a bunch over it, even though a mod has posted and is well aware of it. Plus, I can't ask about anything but the engine and most of those questions can be found by searching anyways.

I recomend this car to anyone that's looking for something different. It turns heads everywhere it goes and the greatest thing about it is, not everyone can say the have owned one, heck rode in one! It's a totally unique experience that can only be appreciated by getting behind the wheel and driving the crud out of it. I've gained a new respect for you V6 guy's and now I'm a proud V6 owner. Like some of you guy's have said, you have to drive it to know why you guy's do what you do.