Sierra6

A while back I bought a set of iron heads that were ported from a friend on facebook. Recently I took them to a local machine shop to have some stainless valves put in them. Intake are Ferrea 1.77" and exhaust are Manley 1.52". These should do well on my turbo setup.

midias

Did you have them flow tested?

Sierra6

no unfortunately. they will just have to be good enough.

Sierra6

(flame suit on)

Sierra6

machinist said he had to "cut a lot of the throats out" on the intake side.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Did he mention deshrouding the valves at all. This will help 2 things. Drop comp ratio just a tic which will actually help and allow much better flow and combustion. Sometimes larger valves on these heads will not help because of the turbulance when leaving the valve port so close to the cylinder walls.

I'm happy to see your results though. I ported polished deshrouded the snot out of my iron heads back in the day with some success especially with turbos. I will add that sadly the best ported gen 1 iron heads in the world will not out flow stock gen 3 large port alum. Heads.

Sierra6

Yes he mentioned valve shrouding, and said if we went larger on the exhaust side they would be shrouded. I know about how much better alum heads are, I've been reading your posts for years.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Well either way those heads you have should flow really well. Stock iron is horrid. But I'm sure you'll have some good results with what you have going on. A nice 270ish duration @.050 cam with a split will help a ton. What cam size and turbo are you planning to use?

Thanks. I try to make some threads that would help people on here. It's not every day you see a built up 660 or a turboed one at that.

3.4 grape

iTrader: (1)

I spent many years supercharging and turbocharging the 3.4 iron heads. I always removed the intake port bump. Although it is needed in the naturally aspirated set up to help bend the air down to the intake valve. I felt it was a big restriction in a boosted application. Since the air is being forced down the throat anyway, there is really no need of it. I also liked to gasket port the heads to really open up as much of that port as possible. Good idea to use a 160 degree thermostat with a fan controller to turn the fan on sooner. Those iron heads are slow to remove heat compared to an aluminum head. The cooler temps will allow you to run more timing without knocking. Good luck with the build.

Sierra6

this is John Rothlinger's old turbo kit. it's a t3 or whatever. But I am using my driver's side pacesetter header instead of a factory manifold like him. I have a comp260h cam and 1.6 roller tip rockers.

Sierra6

thanks for the advice. I posted the question about the intake divider on an engine building forum and everyone said that everything that helps an NA engine flow better also helps a boosted engine. I looked through mark's posts to see if he removed it and I couldn't tell. If nothing else it will help my low end torque off boost. now that the heads are all clean and the valves are in i'd hate to start grinding on them again.

Sierra6

I do of course want to make enough power to make all this money and work worth it, but i'm not concerned with breaking records. I just want it to make about as much power as a stock 200k mile 5.3 everyone says I should have put in it.

And I do have a bet with a coworker that it will make 350 rear wheel foot pounds lol.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Ahh du I know that. I'm sure with some good tuning you can hit 300hp 350tq crank. Didnt you get the gt3582r t3/4 turbo then? 61mm. That's my fav turbo for a hybrid or iron head 660 v6.

Sierra6

yes it is the gt3582r. Probably was recommended to him by you i'd assume. I have a pretty good tuner who owns a dyno and it's going to be tuned on megasquirt II

Sierra6

I know my car is still a long way from running decent times at the track. I need a locking rear diff and i'm worried about how my transmission will hold up to the power (stock 700r4 rebuilt last in 1995). plus i'll need some sticky tires. I saw someone selling an S10 2800 stall the other day and i'm tempted to get it but idk how it would do on the street?

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

yea I reccomended the gt35 to John. Its an perfect size and you'll love it.

Here is what I would do with the whole converter deal. Buy this exact one. Its what I ran for years and ended up selling to John. It's a great street converter and will work much much better. It's under a 2.8l v6 s10 but same as what we have. I actually ran a best of a 11.70@115mph with thos converter and a somewhat stock 700r4. 3.1/3100 turbo hybrid. With your hp expectations it will stall at about 2800-3000 max which is about perfect on the streets and with the turbo cam package you have.
https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/...02-P?searchTer

As for the trans it will hold up quite well long as the tv cable is adjusted well and you make damn sure to never let the torque converter lock up or let it go into overdrive while under boost. There is set points in the $59 mask for this so I'm sure there is in ms as well for the tcc lock up

I used $59 mask and a 7730 stock ecm to tune so I'm no help when it comes to mega squirt.


If you feel up to playing with the transmission there is a few things to help it survive the long haul. Such as a new boost and intermediate valve, and a vette servo. Make the line pressure much higher, eliminates flares between shifts and overall just shifts better. Also a spring kit which will not allow 4th gear shifts under wot.this stuff is really cheap. Mabey 75 bucks total?

Sierra6

Awesome, thanks! I really have no idea what driving a stalled auto is like. But I hear it makes it more fun.

Sierra6

I just read this.

"Whenever you install a higher stall converter, be sure you use some sort of an external tranny cooler. When you are "stalling out" your converter, such as being at the line at the drag strip ready to launch, they build up a LOT of heat from hydraulic friction. "

what do you think about adding a transmission fluid cooler?

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

I always recommend adding a cooler even just a small one. I have always ran one but I also raced the snot out of the car.

any small air to air cooler off summit or something would work great. Keep in mind flash stall is based off of tq. So that's why i say itll stall from 2800-3000. My guess iron heads... when I was running 12.80s@105mph delta 260 cam gt 3582r turbo 15 psi. Ported the snot ot of the heads... it was flashing at 3100 rpm at the launch on the data logs but driving it arround town gently you really didnt notice the larger converter stall.

Sierra6

I imagine since my car being a firebird is a 100% bottom feeder, a transmission fluid cooler would be competing for surface area with the radiator, AC, and intercooler. I wonder where I could mount it. I'm not running AC at the moment but I want to leave the option open

Sierra6

also, can you tell me what your best 1/8 mile ET and MPHs were with iron heads? we don't have quarter mile tracks around here unfortunately.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

My best eighth mile with iron was right arround 8.30s. Which isnt too bad but when I had the hydrid in its hay day it ran 7.40s

I stacked the radiator then intercooler and tossed the trans cooler in the area not taken up by the intercooler. Dependent on your ic size exc you should have plenty of room to toss a trans cooler in there.

Sierra6

8.30s at what MPH?

Sierra6

and did you ever work on your old intake manifold any? (for the iron heads)? I know there's not much you can do and they are very restrictive but still. I have done a good gasket match on mine.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

I gasket matched them really well also knifed the throttle body. I did about anything possible to open up the air flow and help it.

added a few pics I'm spt 191
a 8.19 at 83.5mph 1/8 mile. High 12 sec pass. 15psi delta 260 cam stock trans and rear minis that high stall converter.

Sierra6

nice! one more question: when you ported your heads did you A: leave the intake port divider alone, B: fin it. or c: remove it completely? If B or C, have any pics?

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Hard to find old pics but I got these puppy's off my facebook page.

So we've got the hogged out heads intakes and tb. Also I ran alky injection only when i made the 12 second passes. So the motor pic is with no ic... just meth/alky injection.

Best thing on our heads imo.... the guide area, pocket port them or really hog them out but the guide in there does help flow. I basically ran a 3/8 carbide bit right up the sides of the vane. Seemed to work great for me.... Also hog out the exhaust port. Polish up the exhaust side as well.

I would def keep the guide, just narrow it down alot and smooth it but leave a clear vane in there to keep flow moving along under control.

Sierra6

i'm trying to add a pic of the exhaust work he did on the heads but it won't let me "browse my computer" for the attachments. But he did. And you didn't show your fins in the pics

so my question now is, should I work on them further than how they are in my first post?

Sierra6

here they are

Sierra6

well nevermind it wont upload from my phone either

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

2nd pic down to can see the fins..

post up some pics of yours if you can

Sierra6

um... no sir you can't? lol. unless we're talking about different things. the only pic that shows your intake ports is not a good angle to see your fins.

robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

I ported those heads

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Mabey we are talking about different things? Hows the build coming along?

Sierra6

It's coming along extremely slowly. I'm dropping off an old head to my brother in law who is a TIG welder. He's going to replace the log manifold with a header style on the pass side. Now i'll have header style on both sides. I believe he will be using stainless as well. (I don't know much about welding).

BTW I mean the fins in the intake side of the heads. i'm not sure what else could be mistaken for fins lol. I believe maybe you think you posted a pic that you actually did not.

1slow8t3

I would have left the stock intake valve and just went bigger on the exhaust myself. Is this going on a 3.4l or a 2.8/3.1l?

here is a thread on another board from years ago when I did a quick port test on a carbed iron head. I just wanted to see what I could pick up with out spending too much time on them.

http://www.fullthrottlev6.com/forums...-Head-project!

i still have the head, i should knock out the vane in floor one day and see what the difference is!

Sierra6

its going on a turbo 3.4 . theres a fiero on you be that claims 250 whp with these valve sizes. he also has the vane knocked out and a custom intake manifold. look up 3.4. fiero supernatural or something

1slow8t3

Lot of work in that thing to get to that power level!

he is shooting for 300whp now http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/140750.html

I would do more work to them while they are off, just don't hit the valve seats!

Sierra6

I'm tempted to knock the vanes out but i'll probably let them ride. they're already clean and I don't want to mess them up. I think Robert did a really nice job as they are.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

I would leave them in there you don't need to knock those puppies out they really do help keep the air going where it's supposed to.

Sierra6

that's what they say but dude got 250whp N/A without them lol.

Sierra6

you have to wonder why even the mythical Ryan Falconer removed them.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

I easily made 300 350hp crank with them. Stock trans stock rear end stock bottom end only engine mods.... ported the heads and intakes delta 260 cam walbro 255 pump and a gt3582r turbo. 12.88@104mph trust me it doent take a rocket scientist to make these little motors run great...it just requires boost. About 15spi of it lol

I'm sorry but to get 250 rwhp na would be way too wild with one of these tiny motors for the street. Boost would be so much better just because it's still a sleeper and steetable.

here is a 12.90 vid.

Sierra6

let me ask you this. if his car really makes 250 whp NA without the fins, do you think it would have made even more power with them?

Sierra6

she seems to run pretty good on the street.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Without a flow bench who knows...but my opinion is leave it in there. It just needs massaged alot


My personal opinion isn't what most wana hear but I've built and raced these engines for many years.

The first thing to do with iron gen 1 heads... throw them in the trash. They will never flow as well as some good ole gen 3 large port alum heads. No matter what you do and how much you spend on them the junk yard 3400 heads that cost 100 bucks for a assembled pair will flow more and be faster either na or boosted. I get that stock stuff like gen 1 heads is fun to push but I've been there and done that. If your a real gearhead youll go hybrid eventually If you want some real hp out of the 2.8 3.1 or 3.4. I could easily build a na 3400 hybrid 3.4/3400 with 9.6:1 compression and get it to have 250hp na so easy it's not funny. Let me toss rwd pistons in run 12.5:1 comp and use e85 and itll really run hard. Which I've done before while it was turbod as well.

And obviously I've proved that about 450-500hp easily can be had with a 3.1/3100 turbo hybrid low 9.6:1 compression 93 octane and 15psi of boost though a s366sx just watch the crank and rods... that tune better be perfect

Sierra6

If I blow this engine up and have to rebuild the bottom end I might go that route. But this is a brand new short block and i'm not going sky high compression + turbo with it. And if I have to choose turbo or hybrid i'm picking turbo. I want that whistle.

Everyone who says how crappy the iron heads are, are also the ones who say leave the vane. The two guys I've actually seen delete the vane have cars that run really well. One being this fiero, the other a Chevette that screams.

I'd also like to point out that the one who got the most power out of these iron 60v6 engines of anyone, Ryan Falconer, deleted the vane in his heads. The same guy who built ITB intakes for them and had a 700hp twin turbo 60v6 back in the mid 80s. Sounds like he knew something the GM engineers didn't. I've recently read that the vane really helps an EGR function efficiently. I suspect this could have been their main concern in reality.

I say this with all due respect because your posts through the years are probably my biggest inspiration for building this car. I didn't know I was gonna go boosted when I ordered my short block.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Well to all their own. I only say all of this because I've been there done it.

I wouldn't ever do the whole high compression hybrid again. I only did it because why not.. and it was a success with a best of 11.23@123mph on a measly 8psi of boost but it was very hard on the engine and ended up breaking a crank not once but 2 cranks opps. That's when I learned what the limits are on the stock 3.1 3.4l cranks about 500-550hp when you race it week in and out.

Comparing a 700hp build in the 80s is hard to compare to now because honestly anyone who just wants a fun v6 can turbo it, leave the heads as they are, toss a 260-270 adv dur. Cam in, a gt3582r and have 300-350hp with ease. Me project 89 and others have all proved it with time slips and videos. Proof is in pics and vids....lol

Oh and a hybrid with the same as above add 100hp on top. That's why I push for a hybrid. So much bolt on power. And the heads and intakes are where it is at. I'll have to find the thread of where they compared some high end porting on gen 1 heads compared to stock gen 3 heads.. on a flow bench at 28" not just some guess work... not even close, the gen 3 heads blows them away period!

Sierra6

I hear you. I just have to wonder if you and project 89 might have went even faster with iron heads had you deleted the vane.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Welll that's a good point I would think that if someone just had a set of heads and flow tested them with and without.. I'd be curious of the results.