Is anyone really interested in adding a reliable (NOS of anykind isn't completely reliable) dry nitrous kit to their TPI F-body? Most people see dry mustang kits amd LT1 kits, but no dry tpi kits! I worked with NOS (well they worked with me) in designing a dry system for our f-bodies. It's cheap, easy to install, and best yet if you already have a wet kit (bottle, solenoids, relay, micro-switch, and assorted line) your talking about maybe 100$. The system I have is completely adjustable from 75-200 horsepower using a throttle body plate designed for tpi's. The part nuymbers can be ordered individually through Holley (yes I have the list) and depending on stock can be to you in one week! My system is rather unique because it employs various kit parts to achieve the same thing LT1 cars have been using for years. Mind you the 200 hp level requires moderate performance upgrades to an otherwise stock block. If your interested I've got pics, part no., schematics, diagrams, and 4 years of tuning the system. I also have 1/4 slips to show just how effective it can be if care is taken to properly tune it. Drop a line and I'll be glad to provide you with all you need to know! Peace!

 

I'm not messing with you guys all you have to do is ask and I'll be more than happy to elaborate with all the specifics you want. It really is easy. Here is a time slip of my setup with 100 shot on street tires. I know my reaction time sucks, and my 60 ft looks like a Honda, but street radials are a less than optimal setup. The Corvette in the next lane got the time but not the power. Believe it or not I pulled him back. The bottom line is reation time and traction mean everything. Enjoy!!!

 

If it costs less than 500$ (assuming you start with nothing) and adds 100 hp without a hickup It's worth every penny in my book. The system is simple and can be adjusted to 200 hp levels if needed. Keep in mind stock bottom ends can only safely handle an extra 125-150 hp before modifications are necessary. The system runs on my car and 3 others I've personally done this year. Some of them ran 150 on a stock block, computer, and PROM last season only to smile every time they saw me. Guy's if your interested the stuff is readily available and I can help with all the part numbers, just ask. Peace

 

Here this is a picture of a similar kit on a F@@d M@@@@@g. Its similar and can be easily hidden for those of you that think others won't know.Peace

 

OK if none of this peaks your interest maybe you want something to compare with the nitrous assisted run, like a run under the same conditions with the same tires and restrictive intercooler plumbing. Here it is. As you can see it really does provide a significant gain. Like I said before it's cheap affordable and best of all completely tunable. My facination with N2O runs deep, but I can only answer questions if you guys reading this post them!!!
I'm about to go to bed so speek up!!!!!!!!

 

These runs were only using a 100 hp shot. I do have runs showing the gains possible with the 200 hp level. But, since you would rather read and leave, It will only be available if you post a reply asking for it!!!!!!!!!!!!! LATER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

originally posted by Kendol:
It's just that you're not the first person to do a dry kit here (I think the NOS part# for a dry kit for multiport EFI systems with a manifold presure referenced fuel pressure regulator was 5115 if I remember right and they made a TPI specific kit that I don't remember the # for, that used an electronic module plugged into the stock ECM to increase the fuel injector pulse width while the system is activated for the needed fuel. The Accel DFI system also increases the fuel injector pulse width to support up to either two or maybe even three stages of dry nitrous injection). lol, and as far as any body here liking to be slow, I'm far from having the quickest thirdgen camaro or firebird here, but my heavy *** IROC (with my heavy *** self in it) runs the 1/8th well into the 7s on radials without nitrous and reaches for 6.9Xs with a 50 shot. :lala:
I figure that some of the guys with dry systems will be interested in trading tuning info though, and some of the guys with wet kits may be interested in info too. It'll just take those interested a while to run across this thread.
As for myself, I'll just stick to my wet kit with a 50 shot for the added intake charge cooling the fuel provides me with since I have no intercooler.

Welcome to thirdgens power adder board.

 

First, just so there's no confusion, the intercooler is of the supercharger variety. I'm not saying most people won't know that, but the last thread read as if you were saying it was for NOS specifically. It and the plumbing are, when the blower belt isn't on, a restriction in the intake tract. Secondly, as for people doing my version of the dry kit---I think most people don't want to pay the exorbant costs of buying an LT1 dry kit and adapting it. Moreover, if they already have an old wet kit they can retrofit it for pennies on the dollar. Your right, I'm sure other people are using dry technology on their 3rdGen TPI cars, but how many of them are sharing with the newbies? DFI has the capability to augment nitrous injection, but who has the money to buy DFI, the harness, and nitrous upgrades just to install their nitrous system? Mustangs routinely add dry kits to their cars for under $450, don't you think some of the newbies would like to know how they can do the same for their TPIs?

 

Well dry parts will be in my future but im planning on adding the fuel via PE table in my prom.
And get away much cheaper ,2 dry nozzles and some line
and a day with a WB o2 and im good to go.
I have 30 lb injectors running a 67% duty now,so ill take them to about 85% and start adding the spray.
This way i only need 1 selonoid and drill just behind my throttle
body .
Trying to stay away from a plate due to slealthness and room.
What ya think kendol?

 

Even I commend those times, but this isn't the street racing board. I just posted some indicative time slips of what performance gains a person with NOS could expect. If you want a better time slip to play with here! Its indicative of my combination on ET Drags not exactly 7s in the 1/8 is it? Later!!!

 

Most people on the juice hide it if there ashamed, LOL!! But if your wanting to use the prom VE tables or enrichment tables to do it I have an old bin that you might be interested in. Most of the kit i'm talking about can be hidden just as easily as what your planning, so I see vary little difference. It uses a standard dry NOS injection nozzle plumbed into the intake tract 2 or 3 inches in front of the throttle body. As for 2 dry nozzles, why? A single NOS dry nozzle has the ability to flow up 250 hp levels, though I personaly wouldn't push them beyond 200. What kind of intake are you using if room for a plate is an issue? Your idea can and will work but for the time investment I think adjusting fuel pressure when the system activates is more economical. Your definetly right a W/B is a must for your approach, not much leway for mistakes other than adjusting fuel across the board. If you need help I can at the very least point you in the right direction. Later!

 

Im using a mini ram,the only reason i wanted to use two is because i dont believe there is a central place to mount one
aside from in front of the throttle body.
I was trying to avoid that because it would just add to
difficulty and neatness.
Do you know of any way to calculate the pulse width desired
to add with say a 100 shot ?
Or how to calculate the amount of fuel needed?
And i havnt yet ruled out the pressure adding,i still have to weigh
my options and prices.
What kind of nozzles do you suggest for just nitrous flow?
Im still waiting for my catalog.

 

the 5115 is the exact one I used on my original 415 tpi

 

originally posted by Kendol:
Lets see...
In the first two slips you posted, you marked that you were car # 04. The pass you made at 9:16PM against car # 40 is supposed to be no bottle. The pass you made at 10:19PM against car # 627 is suposed to be with a 100 HP shot of nitrous. OK, I'm with you so far.
Now you post a slip and say it's your same car except with ET drags???
So how come this slip (the one you ran at 7:04PM against car # 04.) Hey wait a minute you are car # 04, so how come you marked that you are car # 67 now? and since when does bolting on a set of slicks onto a 13 second car running 114.81 MPH increase the trap speed to 129.96 MPH??? In most cases bolting slicks onto a 13 second car will drop ET but actually slow down trap speed a little. On rare occasions you might see, a mile per hour or two gain, but not 15 MPH.
We might not be the smartest guys around, but we're a little sharper than a bag of wet cotton *****.
<hr>
And I wouldn't have said anything, but with the BS rolling, why not. The ET gain from the 9:16PM run (13.666) to the 10:19PM run of 12.922 is nice but not really up to par for a 100 HP shot. For a 100 HP shot on a 13 second car you should be seeing closer to a full second improvement if the tune is right.

Who ever really was in car # 67 has a badd azz ride,:hail: running 10.592 @ nearly 130 MPH. Car # 04 saw only tail lights.
So, what kinda car was # 67 really?
Looks like his suspension could use a little tweeking. His 60' is kinda week for a mid 10 second car.

 

Well the year is different ,but the same exact day?
My mid 10'S car only 60 ft.s mid 1.6's also but its due to only running a 3200 converter but i pull 128 mph ,i think thats should be good for a higher 10.4 et with a 4500 stall.
Just trying to keep things streetable tho.
Oh well back to nitrous........

 

As I've said to numerous people in the past, times are indicative of the mods on a car. Personally, I think throughout this post I've been pretty clear that the car has an ATI Procharger with a 2 core intercooler mounted on it. It happens to be the 12 lb. P1-SC model and for both previous runs I specifically noted that the runs were with the belts off (i.e. remember the restriction in the intake?). Never said I was running a 100 hp shot on that run either. Though getting mad about the fact people just can't read gets you no where, I would like to have the opportunity to defend myself. As for the last slip I think date and time speak for themselves. And by the way, digital media is available as well.
the car is that fast except it and move on!!!! It seams to me alot of people like talking sh@t, but never are willing to show proof. I personally have given you all need. As for the less than one second gain on the 100 hp shot, I think mph more than justifies my claim. After all, mph is the hp available and e.t. is the amount put to the ground. A gain of 10 mph in the quarter is nothing to sneeze at JACK!!!! Show me a slip with that 50 shot doing the same thing and I'll let you have the board to yourself, until then get real!!!! Be happy others enjoy just as much, or even more, success as you with their cars. By the way, ET DRAGS make a world of difference, just ask the torque arm that broke on that run!!!!!! As for the poor 60 ft., never said I ajusted anything, thats not true. After the slicks, and 10 psi in the passenger side air bag, the car responded well. If you want a picture of car #67 here. Later!!!

 

As for you 87_TA, it seems as though the your the only one who pays attention to details, i.e. different years. I'm glad to see you read first, and question later. Sorry about the date, I've gone to the track every weekend its been open for the last 3 yrs.. It was an oversight of mine that the dates were the same. I'll give you one more slip to smooth things over. Not exactly the same but close enough to prove the cars are identical.

 

No Need Kendol,
Ive been acused of not having a 10 second car before but i never
really blame people, when you take into consideration the amount of people who "say" they have a 10 sec. car we are just 2 of a million.

 

I believe the original topic was dry nitrous systems not time slips. As for you 87_TA I think adding pulse width can get real tricky unless your careful to do it across the board after enguagement. Even then, if your wrong about the amount your motor will fry. As for the amount to add, this depends largely on the position of the nozzle and how much power you intend to add. Using the dry 5115 setup, like mentioned before, you can't just throw in the jets NOS specifies because of the differences between the fuel pressure regulators Ford vs. GM. I've found they don't provide the necessary fuel pressure to support our TPI applications. Assumming you can calulate flow increases as a function of pressure (i.e. F2 = F1 * sqrt( P2/43.5 ) ) you can calculate the amount of pressure needed to support any level. As I made mention to earlier, all of this assumes your car isn't already flow limited on the fuel side. Personally, I think an auxillary fuel pump mounted in line, off of its own relay, is a great form of insurance. Considering, increasing fuel pressure on a stock pump can prematurely lead to its untimely demise. Unless you are already over 550 hp, the stock diameter fuel line will work. As for the amount of fuel to add, most nitrous injected cars run a .55 BFSC (i.e. they consume .55 lb of fuel for every hp they produce), so you can plan on adding a great deal of fuel pressure if you surpass the 150 hp level. The same formula for calculating injector sizes for normally aspirated motors applies to the nitrous application as well, because after all your adding all of the supplemental fuel through the injectors. Most people will say the injectors are not made to handle pressures above 65 psi, but I've managed to push them to 85 with an upgraded fuel pump and lines. NOTE! I would not try anything over 100 hp without an inline fuel pump, not only does this put severe strain on the intank unit, but also as fuel pressure increases flow volume decreases. The jets for the nozzle vary upon actual testing, but as a guideline a 42 roughly adds 80 hp, a 67 roughly adds 150, and a 82 roughly adds 200. Keep in mind actual testing of the bypass jet size under load is absolutely necessary. By this I mean there is no way to test fuel pressure increases caused by the bypass jet while not under load. I suggest filling your bottle, disconnecting the nitrous line ( leaving the rest of the system intact ), and at WOT activating the system to see actual pressure increases. This is where a hood mounted fuel pressure guage is of great help. For the 150 hp levels I currently use a 102 with the vacuum lines in a reversed arrangement as those in the above picture. This is partially because I could not gain enough fuel pressure with NOS's specified arrangement, and because this allows greater room for tuning higher levels. I added a picture, the arrows show the new positions. I also run a wet plate mounted behind the throttle body for injection ( the fuel fitting is plugged). Picture included as well. If you still need more help with the math for required pressure increased let me know. Later!!!

 

Here's the picture with the arrows.

 

As a guideline, if I remember correctly your using 30 lb. injectors, I would suggest a pressure increase of 15-18 lb for 80 hp, 34-36 lb for 150, and for 200 hp an increase of 48-51 lb. I would like to point out these numbers are approximate and will change for different vehicles. If the car is already running a little rich go on the low side of these numbers, if lean on the high side. I did allow for a slightly richer mixture to prevent leanout, so if your car is running lean already it WILL NOT run leaner using these numbers. Another good point to remember, if you are using an AFPR then every time you manually change fuel pressure, the settings will change. Remember colder spark plugs too!! To hot and they WILL CAUSE DETONATION! As for the possible nozzles, I'm a dealer for NOS and therefore don't stock anything else. NX, Nitrous Express, Zex, ect. are suppliers that offer great products as well. Personall, as for NOS, I love their wet plate when its converted for dry operation, but nozzles like what they include in the Ford EFI kit aren't bad either. I've included a picture of whats included in the 5115 Ford kit. However, I've only tested these to 150 hp levels.

 

87_TA, if you still intend on adding the fuel by adjusting pulse width, I would like to point out what the actual gains of nitrous oxide are. Most people assume a car that puts out 350 hp naturally aspirated will run close numbers to that of a car producing 350 hp with nitrous oxide, NOT TRUE!!! The car running nitrous oxide will experience tremendous low RPM torque gains unlike the NA car. This means the area under the torque curve will be greater and therefore its performance on the strip. To make a long story short, this means adding fuel needs to be across the boards, from moment of enguagement to the traps. This also means when you increase pulse width pay special attention to low RPM fuel demands, this is where problems will be extremely obvious. As for tuning a system employing this method, I wouldn't even try unless I owned an accurate W/B O2 sensor (my 7 wire NGK works great for this). Keep in mind by burning a chip for this, your car will perform like a switch either "ON" or "OFF" depending on when you use the nitrous. That's just one of the many advantages a pressure system has. While not in nitrous mode the car runs well, and while activated even better. Not to mention the fact that most people while driving their cars won't have an opportunity to change their chips to accomodate the bottle. Just thought you ought to know! Later!

 

hey you guys that like to run a dry shots, consider replacment of those crappy gm injectors with some affordable ford units. 19#'ers for you 305 guys or 24#'ers for you 350's (some do 24# in 305's and 30# in 350's). the stock GM injectors are prone to a threshold pressure lock, in other words when subjected to the higher PSI increases associated with FMU's on blowers or pressure risers on dry manifold nitrous systems the injector will close during a normal pulse and fail to reopen every time and some times fail to reopen at all until pressure goes back down. this causes a dangerous lean condition. I hate to admit it but the ford ones have a higher threshold than I have been able to beat. with prices on gm injectors being close to $500 and the ford ones being about $200 it is sad to admit needing a ford part for your chevy.

 

I can't be specific on what you need unless your specific on what you already have. I have a lot of used parts lying around and I'll be more than happy to save you money. Personally, I wouldn't sale used solenoids to my worst enemy, so don't ask. If you already have some, but they're old, just specify a size and design and I'll gaive you part numbers for the rebuild kits. The rebuild kits come with a new plunger, rubber dimple, spring, and tool for disassembly. Another point I forgot to mention earlier, If you insist on burning a PROM, becareful to remember bottle pressure is constantly changing based on ambient air temperatures and will make electronic tuning extremely difficult. You might be able to get your correction tables dead on at one pressure, but change the bottle pressure and your asking for disaster. Therefore, to do it this way you must include a bottle heater for those cold days, a pressure guage ( preferrably where you can see it while driving, not mounted directly to the bottle), and purge kit to attain consistant results. A lack of time or money to do these minimal additions could spell DOOM for your project. By the way I've included a chart showing the relationship of temp. on bottle pressure. Enjoy! Later!

 

As for the injectors, B4CTOM1 is right. I too hate admitting Ford injectors are better, but for the price you can't beat them. However, I've still had the injectors lock open, and worse yet closed, even with the SVslow injectors too! But, this is usually because I run pressures in the 90-95 psi range. To combat this, you could opt for a set of Lucus plate style injectors, or just try to stay under 75 psi and go with larger injectors. I've also had great results with Accel's line of injectors, though the problem of them freezing up still exists. They're not Ford and the price is about the same so they are an alternative. Later!!

 

What do you do to bump your fuel up when you are on N2O exactly?

I looked over the 5.0 diagram, I dont get it, how does it work?

 

Well, between the two solenoids there is a pressure diverter valve. This valve allows some of the pressure behind the nitrous in the bottle to be directed into the fuel pressure regulator. This is where basically you can liken it to an FMU, much like what you would find in a supercharger kit. It puts pressure on the return spring in the regulator which inturn increases fuel pressure. If you look close at the picture you'll probably notice the jet required to limit the pressure the regulator sees. This arrangement as desribed by NOS was originally designed to work with Ford EFI cars. The problem with using this kit, as is, for TPIs lies in the fact that the jet calibrations given for the Mustang won't provide adequate fuel pressure increases for nitrous on TPIs. That's why I reversed the vacuum lines and used a bigger jet. This bigger jet allows for a greater range of tunability and higher levels of N2O injection. As we all know, our intakes were originally designed to only flow dry mixtures of air. Up until the past 10 years NOS only offered wet kits (i.e. inject both nitrous and fuel into the same orifice). When people realized the advantages of nitrous port injection technology, they coupled it to the newer port injection vehicles that use injectors to fire fuel directly into the combustion chambers. The result is the modern dry injection kit which gives us the best of both worlds. We get to inject the supplemental fuel through the existing injectors (which is how it should be done) and inject only a gaseous mix of air and nitrous into the manifold (which in most cases was only designed to flow gaseous mixtures in the first place). All said, this techology can be used to add an additional 150-200 hp on any TPI vehicle while using every part as the factory intended for it to be used. Hope this clarified things. Later!

 

The pressure diverter valve is number 11 in the drawing, the pressure tee part number 18 houses the variable pill jet, and the two lines coming off the tee connect to the fuel pressure regulator and intake manifold. The tee allows, with a given jet, for only a limited amount of pressure to be directed into the regulator and the rest is vented into the intake. As for nitrous, it is injected through line 12 into a nozzle (part number 14 and also shown in picture right after the schematic) located just in front of the throttle body. The nozzle itself contains a pill jet, part 13 in the drawing, which allows for various hp levels. Hope this clarified things a little.