it's for sale over on the turbobuick website:
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/sho...ght=camaro+z28

 

guessi've just gotta say thats the best looking 'vert i've ever seen, maybe my '91 z28 'vert will look that good one day.

 

That's absolutely disgusting. To take such a rare car and turn it into a complete custom job. Jobs like this should be performed only on dime-a-dozen cars, not rare classics. (Excuse me while I go throw up.)

There is nothing original about this car. What's ashame is that the customization is so nice that it probably will never be brought back to original. In fact, today if this car were in this good a condition but original, it would be worth more than his asking price of $12,500. Go to NADA if you don't believe me. It is worth $16,100 in excellent original condition.

What I find curiously interesting is that it does not have the original rear spoiler, including the side quarter extensions. Note that there are no spoiler door extensions that were original in 1987?

Check out this pic. Note the "odd" dimple above the door handle? This could be the location for one of the two studs that mount the door extension, BUT you've got to ask yourself why it shows so prominently, considering the quality of the paint job.... Then again, it might be a reflection.... but it sure doesn't look like a reflection...

Does anyone have the VIN? I'd like to know if it truly is a 1987 Z28 with a TPI and 5-speed (originally). It would make it #3.

 

I've been thinking more about this car. The owner's asking price is based on the mods, not the rarity of the car itself. Funny how he believes it's worth $12,500, yet if it were original, it would be worth up to $16,100. Therein lies the quandry.

I wonder if he still has the original engine and transmission -- Obviously the engine is different -- Notice it's now an automatic? I wonder if he still has the original seats or if they were covered?

Hypothetically speaking, if he were to have all the parts that could make this car all-original, he could sell it for $16k (say) and he could sell all the aftermarket bolt-ons (and the engine too) for more. He could probably pocket up to $20k+ if he were to do this. Kind of ironic, isn't it.

Jim, could you please post over on that board again with a link to this thread? The owner of this car, as well as prospective buyers, need to know this information.

Of course, this is assuming the car IS a Z28, not an IROC-Z. Sometimes it's hard to tell, but I believe the seller needs to state that no B4Z code is listed on his SPID. I would feel much warmer and fuzzier if he stated this.

Willie

Owner of an original 1987 Z28 Convertible with a 305 TPI / 5-speed valued at $16,000.

 

For those who haven't seen. Take a close look at the side spoiler extensions on my door above the door handle. That's original to 1987 and very early 1988 Camaro convertibles.

Yeah, yeah I know. I don't have the original Z28 wheels. I do, just not on the car!! Like those polished IROC-Z wheels much better.

 

Willie, I sent him a private message. Hopefully he'll come over here. It'll be fun to learn about how the car was originally equipped.

 

*****, i must say you are an ***. This camaro is a pristine example of a beutifuly restored custom show car. It has one over many local shows and drawn attention from every other car around. Every single peice of this car was done PROFESSIONAL and RIGHT ! No expense was spared and no corners were cut. I undertand where you are comming from by saying it is a rare car but you must understand that it is not very desirable with a 180hp tuneport 5spd. I have a 98 Ls1 camaro 1 of 378 cars in its color scheme. If i had the chance to do a complete custom LS6 conversion i wouldn't hesitate for a minute. nobody's Jumping over each other to get it the way it is.
anyway, I just wanted to tell you that you are ignorant and disrespectful and full of ****. the owner of the car couldn't get registered.
thank you
have a nice day!

 

*****, i must say you are an ***.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, so I will not edit comments like this out (this time). All I ask is that you be fair and objective -- open minded. And you really don't gain any points for name calling. It tells me something about your character. I never stoop this low. Evidence: Read on. I will only state my opinion or fact (if I can cite references as proof).

This camaro is a pristine example of a beutifuly restored custom show car. It has one over many local shows and drawn attention from every other car around. Every single peice of this car was done PROFESSIONAL and RIGHT ! No expense was spared and no corners were cut.

There is no disagreement here. The fine line I draw is what kind of car to mod. I am a purist and know that you do not mod super rare cars. They should be left original, period. Let's use another example, a 1988 1LE IROC-Z. Would YOU mod one of only FOUR produced? I hope not. Ask any restorer of classic and rare vehicles. You do NOT mod super rare cars. To date, only TWELVE 1987 Z28 Convertibles have been confirmed to exist. The subject car may be 13, but I need proof of this. Because GM did not keep track of option combinations, no one knows how many of the 744 Z28's had the IROC-Z option. Speculation is that most did.

Speaking of mods, I know better than to mod a rare car. That's why I have not done so with my convertible. Instead, I bought a dime-a-dozen 1987 305 TPI IROC-Z and have been working on it for years. It is now a 12-flat, daily-driven, emissions-legal 305. So I also happen to know about how to mod cars.

I undertand where you are comming from by saying it is a rare car but you must understand that it is not very desirable with a 180hp tuneport 5spd.

Why not tell that to the researchers at NADA? See what they say. In it's day, it was top of the line in terms of drivetrain desirability. Even today, the 305 TPI with 5-speed is one hot ticket in terms of people wanting it. They are the hardest to find. It would be unfair to compare it with today's cars.

Oh, and I need to state that you should research your facts before posting them. This only causes you to look bad. We wouldn't want that, would we? In 1987, the 305 TPI with automatic produced 190 hp. The 305 TPI with 5-speed was rated at 215 hp. Where do you get the 180 hp figure? Cite references please.

My original 1987 Z28 convertible was appraised two months ago at $16,000. Two years ago, I was offered $30,000 for it. I declined. Money was not the issue. Rarity is. I will keep this car as long as I'm breathing and will pass it along to my daughter one day.

I have a 98 Ls1 camaro 1 of 378 cars in its color scheme. If i had the chance to do a complete custom LS6 conversion i wouldn't hesitate for a minute. nobody's Jumping over each other to get it the way it is.

A couple of comments here. In the third gen years, GM did not keep records of option combinations. In other words, color schemes were never officially recorded -- too many combinations of options/colors to keep track of. Only the number of individual options were recorded, never combinations. If GM changed their ways and do this today, please let me and everyone else on this board know. Otherwise, please cite the reference indicating your spec.

Secondly, a 1998 Z28 is not rare. Another example: 1992 Z28 in Bright Metallic Teal. It was the only year third generation Z28's were produced in this color. Rare? Probably. But would this car be listed separately by publications such as NADA, Old Car Price Guide, etc? The answer is no. It would be the same for your '98.

Conversely, the 1987 Z28 convertible IS listed. Therein lies the difference between the '87 and '98. Did you check out http://www.nadaguides.com ?? You won't see the 1987 Camaro convertible listed under "Used Cars". You will however, see it listed under "Classic, Exotic and Muscle Cars". All other third generation Camaro convertibles are listed under "Used Cars".

anyway, I just wanted to tell you that you are ignorant and disrespectful and full of ****. the owner of the car couldn't get registered.

Ignorant? Regular members of this board know better. I see how this is your first post so you would not know this.

So I really would like to know about the "dimple" in the pic I posted above. Also, why does this car not have the original rear/side spoilers? I'm speculating here, but you've proved by your "180 hp" statement above that you do not know all your facts. Did you even know the rear spoiler is not original? Please reply in a civilized manner. No profanity on a public board either. This world would be a better place if people did not resort to this awful mannerism. If you resort to that again, I WILL edit your response.

Willie

 

Two very separate and distinct topics:

1)
It is one thing to attack another's opinion. It is a completely different topic when one attack's another's person. While it is perfectly fine to attack one's opinion, the person above attacked me on a personal level. I could have easily edited (or even deleted) his post but felt compelled to leave it untouched so all could see a perfect example of unacceptable behavior. I believe I responded maturely and in a civilized manner. Reiterating what I said above, I will not tolerate this type of personal attack and if it occurs again, I will either edit or delete the response.

We are all here to help one another and to discuss third gen topics. We are never done learning and I personally will acknowledge when I've made a mistake. I believe in this case I've asked some valid questions pertaining to originality about this car. I have yet to hear any answers.

2)
Other prime examples I thought of through the night that clarifies one of the points I attempted to make above:

1970 Challenger, 318 or slant 6
1970 Hemi Challenger

Which one "should" be modified? Which one should remain bone stock?

1970 Mustang Fastback, 302 or 351
1970 Boss 302 Mustang

Again, which one?

Get the point? Rare cars should not be modified. Only not-so-rare cars should be. Yes, the 1987 Z28 convertible is in the same class (rarity wise) as the two cars listed above. All you have to do is look at its value today to see that. Obviously the person who replied above has never seen Dream Car Garage or knows what "numbers matching" means.

I really hope he replies in a civilized manner to my questions.

Willie

 

Wow. Never did I think I'd see somebody call Willie ignorant.

Anyway... I have somewhat mixed feelings about modding rare cars. I think it sucks, but I realize that others don't feel the same way. I saw a 30k mile LS6 70 Chevelle that received a complete drivetrain & suspension update and it made me want to cry. The car was stunning: 502 big block, completely updated suspension to improve handling, 4 wheel disk brake upgrade, etc. It's a chevelle that I'd love to own, but it's an LS6 that I'd be embarrassed to be associated with. I guess this is the same situation. That 'vert is beautiful, and I'd love to own a Camaro 'vert that looked & performed like that, but I think it's a terrible shame that it was an 87 Z28 that was the foundation of that customization.

Well, off to Wal Mart I go. I'm almost done painting my 4 speed 71 Hemi Cuda convertable & I ran out of krylon.

 

Jim, this guy even misspelled my name!! I highly doubt he'll answer my questions. He came over here to specifically call me a butthead because I stated my opinion and that I have no clue what I'm talking about. Amazing there are people out there like this...

Krylon? You gotta use Walmart brand spray paint, dude!

Willie

 

Very interesting topic. I totally agree with Willie. I would never do anything to my 92 Z28 convt that would ruin its originality. Sure, I have an aluminum drive shaft but I also have the original steel unit sitting in my shed, complete with green factory paint mark.
Only 1254 92 Z28 convts were built. How many are wrecked and crushed after 10 years? How many are beat and beyond restoration? How many are already in boneyards or have been parted? 1254 may seem like a lot but remember, Chevy made I believe over 3000+ SS Chevelle convts each year. How rare is a nice unmolested version of those? What about the thousands of 64 Impala SS convts that were built?
That's why I have the 89RS convt to play with! (Though only 3245 V8 RS Camaros were built that year). Keeps me from messing with car that has things going for it in the future.

 

oh my lord.....


If that was what I think it was then Willie has everyright to react he way he did... as well as I do.

If the car was origionally a Z-28 with a 5-speed then it WAS worth more than what he is selling it for now when it was in its origional state, a bunch more, and it was EXTREMLY rare to boot. I know, I have seen ******* vert. & his appraisal.

would have been no. 3 Willie, no.3.

 

Good golly, Miss Molly! This guy does not know what he is talking about, let alone WHO he is talking about!

I do think people should do what they want with their cars. If that was ME, than I would have sold the 87 'vert (for a nice profit) and bought something else to mod.

I just found out the GM only made +/- 3000 of the car I have, but that is not as rare as the 87.

Willie, if this guy cant talk in a mature manner, please ban him. We dont need this kind of troll around the boards. Thomas

 

I'm sure Mr. "Fast LS1" is reading all this. But I seriously doubt he'll post again because he really doesn't know much about third gens, much less the history behind the 1987 Z28 convertible.

To Thomas,

You better believe this guy will be thrown out if he posts even one more message with this "attitude". I've already warned him. Maybe he did not notice that I moderate this board and have the power to do so. I don't think he's coming back. But in case he does>>>

To Mr. "Fast LS1",

When it comes to third gen Camaros, I possess a vast amount of knowledge, most of which is backed up by references. FYI, the most desirable drivetrain in a third gen is either the 305 TPI / 5-speed or 350 TPI. My absolute specialty is the 1987 Camaro convertible. I have been researching this particular vehicle since 1988. I have owned three 1987 Z28 convertibles (one was an IROC-Z). I searched for years looking for the person who could supply me information about this car. I found little bits of information from dozens of sources, but never did find the ONE person who knew about them. Eventually, I became that person. In addition, I've been keeping a registry of 1987 Z28 convertibles, not IROC-Z's, since I discovered the first one in 1994 (mine).

Last month, there was an article in an English automotive magazine. This article was on this particular car. My name was mentioned in the article as the source of most of the information.

You sir, are dealing with the wrong person on the wrong topic. You've made your "factual" statements which are inaccurate. You have proven you really don't know anything about third gens.

I have a gut feeling that the owner does not know how rare his car is, assuming he can prove it is what he says. I would be willing to give him the history behind the car. One thing really bothers me though. Why would you replace a unique (one-year only) rear spoiler with one manufactured for all the other year convertibles (1988 - 1992)?? The only conclusion I can draw is that the car was wrecked, the spoiler(s) needed to be replaced and a 1987 piece could not be located because of its rarity. OR IT'S NOT AN '87. Prove me wrong. Also the "dimple" in the pic. That appears to be one location where a hole was filled, a hole used for the side door spoiler extension. How could such a beautiful paint job have such a flaw?

As I mentioned, I keep a registry of 1987 Z28 ragtops (no IROC-Z's). I have located over 100 1987 IROC-Z's, but only 12 Z28's. Of the 12, only two with the most desirable TPI / 5-speed combo. Your buddy's could be number three if you can document (prove) it. Although I'm hesitant because of your attitude, have the owner e-mail me with the VIN and RPO options. This will be proof. I will then supply the owner with all the information I have on the remaining 12. You see, you've insulted me and my integrity, yet I still want to do this for the owner because of the extreme rarity of this car.

Where are you Mr. "Fast LS1"???

Willie

 

Geez Willie, sometimes you can be a real ****!

I'm only kidding of course. I like to stir the pot!!! I agree with you 100%. Your attitude towards this person was very professional and mature and also very refreshing to see. I'm glad thirdgen.org has someone with yours and Drews (where is he?)knowledge and ability to help "the other guy"

Also, to show this person has no clue, where did he get the information on 1 of 378 in his color scheme. I have the exact breakdown of colors on ALL 98 Camaros and absolutely none of the colors had 378 done in it. They range all over the place, but none exactly 378.

Lastly, As you are aware, rare options can become a $$ issue down the road when the car itself becomes rarer. Certain cars are worth more when the car is 1 of only 3 made in that color and the it's the only one left. Case in point, a certain green or blue Yenko Nova that was shown on My Classic car was appraised at astronomical amounts because it was the last one in that color scheme. If this guy wants to talk rare color for 98, look at the Teal SS convertible. Only 1 made. Or the gold SS convertible, only 7 made. Where did he get 378 from?????

 

Gee Willie; you're really giving me a complex on 87 IROC vert's. Just kidding, I know you're making the point of the rarity (aledged) of the modified vert in question. Reason I say aledged is that it seems you have reservation about it's authenticity. I can't open the site to see it; not sure why.

By the way, the wife and other reasons are forcing me to sell mine. I posted it the autotrader.com. I know I'll regret this, but maybe it's for the best because I wholeheartedly agree that these cars should be left original and I'm more of a street rod type of guy. Believe I'll look for 3rd Gen I can tub and put a 502 in it. This will make for a heck of a project and I can spend money over time on it.

 

First off I would like to say that I have seen this car in person a few weeks ago and it is a very very nice car. There are very few third gen camaros that I like but I am in love with this car. If I had anywhre near he amount of money that this car is worth I would gladly buy it. Whatever gets done to whatever car is the owners right and should not be discriminated against. Who actually collects the rare 3rd gen camaros? Who would actually pay 16k for any 87 camaro? If you dont like the way its built, buy it and restore it the way you want to. A 305 TPI engine is dirt cheap, as are most parts for a 3rd gen camaro.

Im sure there are going to be people asking what Im doing here if i dont like third gen F-bodies. I had a caprice cop car with a TBI engine I had some questions about a supercharger for it.

Peace out.:lala:

 

As Bill Murray said in Caddy Shack, "I have to laugh"
305TPI engines may be dirt cheap. The original, numbers matching engine in any collectable car is priceless, period. Regardless if it's a numbers matching 4 banger or ZL1.
Have you ever priced thirdgen convertible parts lately? Oh, they aren't available from GM anymore so you are at the mercy of some guy who bought up all the remaining stock. The plastic trim piece that hides my convt top headerbow/latch handles was listed at over $300 when it was available from GM!

 

I'd really like to see this stock vs. modified pissing match come to an end. It's not doing ANY of us any good. Willie and I want information on his car, and he seems unwilling to share it, no doubt because he has no interest in listening to the criticisms and flames from those of us that wish he kept it stock. It's time to put that crap to bed so that we can learn about his car.

I couldn't agree more. It's obvious that Mr. "Fast LS1" will not respond. This guy has formed an opinion, and is not open minded enough to accept the fact that he's wrong on many points he made. He's probably just walked away from this thread with his nose up in the air.

In any case, I believe the information on NADA, along with the asking price of the subject car verifies what I've believed all along. In other words, if you take a rare car and modify it, it LOSES value. This can also be verified at car shows -- that's why there are different classes!! The owner of the subject car is asking $12,500. This car has thousands of dollars in mods. My car was appraised by a Senior Appraiser, accredited by the American Society of Appraisers at $16,000.

On the other hand, if you take a common car and modify it, its value RISES. If the subject car were a coupe, for example, it's value would be ~$3,500 in top condition (NADA). Add thousands in mods and what do you get? A car that's worth much more than $3,500.

I genuinely believe the owner of the subject car did not know the value of his car before he started modding it. If he had, I'm sure he would have thought twice. It is for this very reason why my 1987 Z28 convertible remains original and my 1987 IROC-Z coupe is modded to the hilt. BTW, my coupe was appraised at the same time as my convertible. It came in at $10,000. I feel this proves my point.

Also, because I have not been contacted by anyone verifying authenticity that this car is an original 1987 Z28 convertible with a 305 TPI / 5-speed, I cannot add it to my registry.

Willie

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mygrain
First off I would like to say that I have seen this car in person a few weeks ago and it is a very very nice car. There are very few third gen camaros that I like but I am in love with this car. If I had anywhre near he amount of money that this car is worth I would gladly buy it. Whatever gets done to whatever car is the owners right and should not be discriminated against.

that is sound.

Who actually collects the rare 3rd gen camaros? Who would actually pay 16k for any 87 camaro? If you dont like the way its built, buy it and restore it the way you want to. A 305 TPI engine is dirt cheap, as are most parts for a 3rd gen camaro.

ummm hmmm gee I don't know....rare Third Gen Camaro collecters I guess. And who would pay 16k for a beautiful Cherry red ALL ORIGIONAL Camaro Convertible? why a true Camaro lover. and 305 TPI are dirt cheap huh... as are most 3rd gen Camaro parts you say, yea maybe if most of those the parts were still in production & there is only one TPI engine that goes with a car numbers mean everything.


Im sure there are going to be people asking what Im doing here if i dont like third gen F-bodies. I had a caprice cop car with a TBI engine I had some questions about a supercharger for it.

Then make you presence here not felt and get your a$$ in the power adder section. Then leave. Oh and get a TPI, there dirt cheap so you can afford one to swap with your nappy TBI.

 

Jim,

I SCREWED UP!! I accidentally edited your post above when I meant to use some of your comments to quote to.... Sorry, but I cannot undo this once I submitted it.... Sorry, dude..

Willie

 

My caprice was totaled by a drunk who slammed into it while it was parked outside my sisters apartment. It wasnt worth doing a TPI swap because I didnt want to. I found a used 144 blower for it for 300 dollrs and was going to buy it and put it on. But the car was totalled before I got a chance to buy it.

I came here to defend this cars owner because he is a great guy to deal with and he has a very nice car. He told me he bought the car in a million peices and the v6 swap was already started.

I am leaving now, never to come back and defend myself to you people anymore, so dont bother tying to pick on me or my old busted *** caprice. I drive a 1998 dodge dakota now if you realy care.

Farewell

 

wait a sec. v6? what are we talking about here? you confused the hell out of me

 

He swapped a Grand National motor into the car.

 

I'd have to agree with Willie as far as modifying rare cars. There's no reason that I can think of to do this. Incidentilly, there was a post on this site about TTAs, GNs and GNXs. Someone left a link to a "really cool" 10 second GNX,( I believe they only made about 800 of those). So this modifyed collectable had a 4.3 w/larger turbo and a lot more crap. What I didn't understand is why this character decided to pick-on a rare GNX ? Wouldn't any turbo Regal do for a 4.3/turbo transplant? It boggles the mind. It boggles the mind.

PS. I have a feeling that Fast LS1 and Mygrain is the same crouton.

 

I can't imagine that the GNX had a 4.3. The 4.3 is a MUCH less stable platform than the 3.8 for a high power buildup. If you can even get a 4.3 to run 10s, it's not going to last long. I'm sure he modified the 3.8. There are a ton of 10 second 3.8 Grand Nationals. Parts are readily available, 10s are pretty easily accompished, and a properly built 3.8 can handle that much power very gracefully.

 

Neat discussion. Neat car too! Couldn't find the pics though

But after reading I think that car is too rare to
substantialy modify from stock.

My favourite car is a 74 455 SD Formula (or T/A if I can't find a Formula) I always wonder if I got bored with it, if I'd modify it.

Yes, but just some bolt ons, maybe a Ram Air IV cam, headers, intake- but i'd keep all the original parts.

 

I got an 88 iroc convertible, maybe she kinda rare maybe she
isn't. I know this... try to find some 'vert parts.
and as to keeping a car in stock condition. I'm all for it, I haven't
done anything to my roc vert that cant be undone so it'll look
like it came from it's original dealer in honolulu, Hawaii. (gotta luv it, first it was in Hawaii, then southwest FL.... no rust)

people thought I was nutz when I bought the car. they are too
caught up in the 'latest and greatest' ... forget about what is a
rare AMERICAN car.

Every one comes up to my vert and wants to know what kind of
car she is. I love it when the ricers hear i havent done much to
the car. they say 'you gotta see my (acura, honda, etc.) it's got
all kind of mods.' (i'm real happy for ya, yakimoto.. see ya at the
light... (why is it the guy driving the ***** won't look at me, but his
girlfriend always smiles at me???))

 

P.S. forgot. as far as a vert thirdgen goes... hear in Naples, FL
I can park the iroc vert on third street shopping district, (next to
ferrarri's, lambo's, porsche's (which are as common here as an old
vw bug) and people (some of them drive the aforementioned
old continent vehicles) ask what year it is, etc.

my thirdgen is more rare here in Naples than any combination
that mercedes or porsche can think up. (there are a few exceptions i wont mention.... I captain their boats..)

 

Willie, if you're looking to spot another 87 IROC-Z vert, there's a gentleman by the name of roc87 on turbobuick.com who has a LC2 Buick motor in one.

 

I could only look at the first pic before giving up on looking at this car...it makes me absolutely sick. To think this was the result of an '87 Z28 convertible is unreal. As time goes on, I see more and more third gens getting rarer by the day, and clean ones getting modded like crazy.

I'll tell ya, if this guy thinks Willie is ignorant, he'd REALLY hate me...I'm more of a purist probably than anyone on this board. I haven't even changed the shifter in my 30th because I don't want to wreck any of the originality!! And I hate the stock shifter too I was glad to sell my Formula to someone who all they wanted to do was put an exhaust on it, paint it and leave it alone. No 350 swaps, no wild paint, no 17" chrome wheels...because I'm telling you guys, mod cars all you want. Its the stock ones that really get attention, especially when it comes to third gens.

And as for the other guy's feeble attempt to say this guy is a "good guy," who cares? He did what he did, and it can't be undone. He may be the greatest guy in the world, but now a truly rare car has been wrecked. Yes, I said WRECKED...sue me.

 

And to think I thought my 88SC vert was gonna be worth something by the time my 12 yr old son gets it..Just kidding..I got it because I LOVE to drive it..Just wish I knew where the DIRT CHEAP parts were at..like the weatherstripping new top etc....

 

Hope you all don't hate me...............

Just for the record though, I tried selling it back in '95 before the real mods began. I do still have the stock springs, driveshaft, dash cluster, a/c components, and the 100k 305 is in the garage.