Ok i bought a new timing light and finally got to check my timing, it was on 4.5 (between 4 and 5, lol).

So I know stock is 6 Degrees, but due to talk on this board about advancind to 8 Degrees improving low end response, I want to set it to that, and see what happens.

#1 Since im only advancing 2 degrees from stock, 4 degrees from where I am, should i be on the look out for anything? I dont have a knock sensor or any fancy equipment, so take that to mind.

#2 It's been a while since I changed my timing so, which way do I rotate it? CW or CCW. And does the hold down clamp use the same size bolt as a v-8? (have a nice dist. wrench)

Thanks!

 

Timing on these is 10
Bolt is 17mm
Nope need swivel head 17mm socket & lots extensions

 

But everyone else on here says "6" and 10 is alot of timing for them to handle

color me confused

 

It's 10.
They are wrong for the V-6 60* mill.

 

if thats correct damn is mine way off! almost 6 degrees! no wonder the take off and performance sux!



Sure it's not 6? lol got a link?

 

look at the sticker on the front underside of the hood, it should say 10*TC

 

Oh so when people say they set to 10 or 8 or even 6, they are talking about "retarding" it? I was under the impression it was the other way around!

If mine is on 4 or 5 BTDC , that explains much about the motor, don't it?


(BTW) I know about the sticker but it's been tore off since I bought the car.

 

Yeah, v8 guys will run at 6 advance. BTDC = advance. The deal is that the piston goes much faster than the spark, so you need to fire the spark "before" the piston gets up top. But factory spec for the 85-up 2.8 multiport v6's is 10 degrees advance. Some guys have tried 12 and saw an improvement. Some guys can't run at 10 degrees or the motor acts up- all I can figure is that the mark on the balancer has moved. Check your balancer here: https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=121177 I tried running at 12 and didn't notice anything except a heavier smell of gas.

And Karl, your '85 uses a 17mm bolt for the dist hold down? My '86 uses a 15mm. I wonder if that's another difference between 85 & 86!

 

gotcha tom, ill try that after "work" lol.


If the balencer is "wide" at TDC and checks out, should i adjust timing in 2* increments working my way up to 10*and check how it runs each time? Or go to 10* and try it and go down?

Thanks!

 

My 2.8L was supposed to be set to 10 as per the dealer. The factory sticker is gone. We had to set it to 14 to get it to run right. It fixed the sluggish starts and gave the car its pep back. It possible my balancer has walked though. We are able to run 14 on 87 Octane with no pinging.

 

so when i screwing with my timing tomm. how can i tell if it's knocking? would i hear or feel it? I just wanna get this car off it's fat rump. I know its a 2.8 but damn there are pintos beating me and 30,000 pound SUV's!!!

 

Yes and No , that just means your timing chain is wore. Your distributor runs off the cam gear , when the timing chain is worn it will retard your cam and distributor timing . Thats why you have to adjust the timing up . The best remedy to that is to just replace the gears and chain . they are cheap enough to do.

 

Hey, Tom,
I believe on that detail I may be in error.
Give a try to 15mm, but I kinda recall 17mm also.....
Yeah, here's how I set timing on these cars, seems to work great.
Loosen distributor bolt, while the car is warmed up, idling "strong" (like won't die).
Take distb and twist toward the firewall.
Hear how the engine sounds, when ya wack the firewall with the connections.
Twist the distb, EVER SO SLIGHTLY, back toward the radiator.
Hear it "slow" down the revs?
Make the final resting point, smooth, slow idle.
Tighten down the bolt, NOT CRANK IT DOWN.
go for a short drive. Include a slight long incline.
IF you hear any ping, SLIGHTLY back the distribtor toward the radiator again, tighten down try the bolt, same test drive.
Should do ya fine.
I set timing by ear, now. Your chain is stretched and if you tr to do it "proper" way, it will be still sluggish, I bet.
One must "advance" the "factory timing balancer mark" to compensate for a stretched/old timing chain.
When do you plan on changing the timing chain?
Receipe-
One balancer sleeve, One Fel Pro Timing chain gasket kit, one V-6, 60* timing chain (any brand-les$ the better!), one water pump.

Remove all parts, mix new with the old, bolt back up, go have a better performing engine.
More detailed, sure, but, yep, that easy.
AND very beneficial.
Add the distributor rebuild into the mix, with new ignition parts and you have one very cheap engine rebuild!
Lots of effort, some money, MAJOR PERFORMANCE GAINS! especially from the point you are at, now.

 

How does the balancer get out of whack like that? Maybe my timing mark is off?

Oh, BTW, with the tip that TomP gives for checking for TDC with a screwdriver, make sure two things, the screwdriver does not sit crooked in the hole, because it might get stuck or bend, or crack the piston or mess the threads on the hole, or soemthing worse. Also be sure that the screwdriver is not too long because when I did this it got caught on the AC canister when I did it and it could have done nasty things if I had not noticed while sitting there turning the crank... oops...

Also I think mine has a 17mm bolt also... 88...

 

10 is stock....my uncle set it at 22 by accident b/c he dindn't disconnect the EST and he set it by ear....(old school mechanic). I have it now set at 16...I run 89, and i also have the Jet Stage 2 chip...I haven't had any problems.

 

BTW Tom, I believe not only is the mark engraved on the balancer, but also the balancer only goes in one way due to the groove it fits in.......that's how mine is at least, so it's impossible for the mark to move.

 

i have mine advanced to 12 with my spark plug gap at .050

 

Yeah old school stuff like TDC I know, it's just the dang computer crap i dont know. Thats why i yanked my last V6 + Computer combo in favor of a 400 SB with old school ever'thang.

Balencer Sleeve? that a new thing (must be) I believe I will replace my chain if it's not alot of money, then Im sure to be on the mark with timing. Why would i need a water pump though?
I have a gear and balencer pully for the removal, anybody know what size bolt i would use in my puller for the balencer? I also have a "tick" or "clack" in my passenger side head, I suspect a loose rocker. So thats next when I take my injectors out and replace them.

And as far as a ignition rebuild goes, I have already got new wires and plugs with a little thicker gap, just need the cap and rotor. the wires arent great but there waaaaay better than the old stock ones, 3 of them werent even connected to the damn plug!

 

Hehe, that's how it would seem, right? The balancer dampens harmonics by it's rubber isolation ring. There's three parts to a balancer: A metal center core, a rubber ring, and then a steel ring. The timing mark is etched on the outermost steel ring. If the rubber deteriorates, the outer ring can slip. You can visually inspect your balancer for a bad rubber core- look at the balancer from the top. The rubber ring should not be poking out of either side of the balancer. The rubber should be flush with the center hub and outer ring.

I'll see if I can get a pick of my old "falling apart" balancer tonight. If you guys use a mirror to look at your balancer head-on (oh, youd have to remove the crank pulley to see it), you'll be able to see the metal core, with a middle rubber ring, and outer steel ring. That's why aftermarket balancers are better; they use fluid instead of rubber to absorb vibrations. They're sealed, and the timing mark absolutely can not move in relation to the center hub, because there is no outer ring. Just a case, and fluid inside. Hm; are there any pics on the net?

I'll do a search and see... maybe I can find a factory balancer vs a Fluidamper.

Well, can't find a picture, but here's some info on what I was talking about; proper name for that rubber ring is "inertia ring"- sorry 'bout that. Here's the link, I'll see if I can get my old balancer's pic up. http://www.fluidampr.com/problem.html

 

Oh and thanks, nj88v6, I edited my post, and added your comments. Thanks for pointing out those details to me, always good to hear feedback about one of my tips!

The balancer sleeve that KED talks about is to fix any groove in your balancer flange. The balancer rides inside the front crank seal- and over years and years and miles and miles, the rubber crank seal can actually wear a groove into the balancer flange! The sleeve is a thin (very thin) piece of metal that gets tapped over the flange of the balancer, where the balancer goes into the front seal. If you have no groove in your balancer, you don't need one. If you have a very very light groove, you could try letting it slide, or, polish it out with very fine sandpaper. But imagine tearing your motor apart and finding out you need one, and the stores 10 miles away! Ouch.

89RSowner, do you have a gear puller or an actual balancer puller? Absolutely, positively, DO NOT use the center crank bolt to pull the balancer back onto the crank!!!! The bolt will overstretch and snap, and you'll wind up with no way to secure the balancer to the motor. How do I know? I did this. Cracked the damn bolt off in the snout of the crank, with nothing to grab with vise grips. It's better to use the hammer/block of wood method, and risk damaging the balancer, than to risk damaging the crank!

You can make a balancer installer yourself, you just need a long piece of metric threaded rod (I think 12mmx1.50, can someone verify this for me?) to fit into the snout of the crank. Then slide the balancer on. Then put a big washer over the rod, and spin a nut down. Spin the nut to tighten the washer/balancer onto the crank. This way, you at most will damage the threaded rod, and NOT the crank.

 

Thanks, tom.

yeah i have a balencer puller for late model engines, it has tons of widgets and other such stuff.

BUT:


I just went outside and checked my balencer, it's bad, very bad. I can see almost the whole inner ring untucked. So how do i make sure that my timing is right, when my balencer is bad and my chain might be stretched? and i found out I have to take the whole front of the motor off to get to the chain? ouch! How can i time it now? It runs ok but i know it's at least a little off, it has to be.

HALP!

 

in other words, how far off is the timing when this happens and is it worth putting it in time without repair of those items.

 

Youd have to check to see if the balancer mark did move... if it did, you could make a new mark on the balancer for the actual TDC of the motor's #1 cyl (front PASSENGER side cylinder for the 2.8/3.1/3.4 V6). I got my 2nd balancer from a junkyard. I think GM wanted $60 for one, which isn't really that bad. http://www.gmpartsdirect.com might want even less, but you'll need a part # to order it. And yeah, you have to pull the whole front of the motor off. The worst part? Scraping the damned aluminum timing chain cover of old gasket material. Since it's aluminum, it gouges easily, and you have to be careful to not ruin the cover. I use Permatex #2 gasket sealant, in a little metal can with a brush in the cap, on the gaskets. You'll also have to pull the water pump.

Do you have a Haynes manual? I have both the Haynes 82-92 Firebird book, and the 1986 GM Service manual ( http://www.helminc.com ), compared the two, and found out the procedures were almost 100% identical. So I brought the cheaper Haynes out to the garage, and went by that one instead. If you want the best timing chain, Cloyes makes a true dual roller for the 2.8, it cost me $90 from Summit a few years ago. But a regular timing chain should work just as well. Someone on here said to be prepared to buy a new timing chain tensioner in case the original is shot- I didn't have to worry about that with mine; the roller chain sprockets are too large to use the chain tensioner with; the Cloyes instructions say to remove the tensioner.

Also make sure that when your local store sells you a timing chain, that you also get the cam sprocket and crank gear with it. The Cloyes is the full set (chain, cam & crank gears).

It's not a technically hard procedure, but oh man, is it a pain.

 

Oh and you could always replace the balancer later, it doesn't have to be done with the chain.

 

Yeah, i have done it with v8's many-a-time.


Okay, so i use the wide mark to put it on top dead center? how would i know how much it's off if it's wrong? with the screw driver method? to test when the piston is at compression?

 

UPDATE:

Turns out the Distrib. Bolt was 15mm. Used TomP's advice on checking TDC with a screwdriver, turns out it was either 2* off to right on. So I guess the Balencer looks worse than it actually is. So I loosened the hold down clamp and adjusted timing to 10* instead of the 4* setting previously. Ran great! idle improved, and no more knock/tick from engine bay!!! BUT I realised that I had FORGOT to disconnect the ECM to distr. wire. DOH! I unplugged the wire and the STATIC timing was 0*!!! So making sure to unplug the wire this time, I adjusted the STATIC timing at 10*, idled slightly better, knocking started up again. But sounded better the more i retarded it. Hooked the wire back up and listened, still knocking a little but sounded better than before. went on road test. It was like I had gained 10 horses under my ****!!! WoW!

BUT it sounded sooo much better and the idle was soooo much better and not ot mention NO KNOCKINGwhen i did it the first time around!! I want to set it back to that and test drive it tomm. or would that be a bad thing? I was going to do that and then if that didnt work out keep adjusting it to get it perfect. Im just worried that 0* is incredibly odd.

Ny opinions TomP? anybody else?? Im not working on it anymore tonight.

 

IF you have rubber slipping outta a balancer, you are in some danger.
That balancer can separate and fling across many distances and possibly kill.
My balancer was going on my 1974 Corvette at 125,000.
My 211,500 Blazer 2.8 balancer came apart (all two pieces, hub still on the block) in my hands.
The sleeve is only $4.
Cheap insurance to bring back to zero tolerance for leaks.
Oh water pump.
They cost only $19 and the thing is off in your hands.
WHY NOT replace it?
Cheap insurance, again
Why run right at "0"?
Everything is off proper mark and the chain is stretched.
You set it by ear and it runs "right". You found the "sweet spot"
Good!

 

1. Yes you could be right. I can afford the sleeve, but not the balencer that's why

2. True on the water pump too, but see #1

3. I want to but i just get this eery feeling, im going to adjust it to 12 tomm and see how it acts (maybe 2* off) and if it doesnt run like the first "mistake" i will turn it back to 0* and enjoy. But even now the low end response is breathtaking! Even with my 300 pound father in the passenger's seat.

4. *** I hope so, im usually not that lucky!!!

 

I remeber that balancer you showed me. I looked at my frineds on his nova and his is doin the same thing but he wont listen to me about it the rubber is comming out of it. What is the differnece between the stock harmonic balancers and then the ones you see in jegs or summit that have liquid in them?

 

Usually just the "Fluid instead of rubber" option. I have bought aftermarket balencers (as said before, in more $ days) and the only difference was they can take higher RPM's and were more compact than stock ones. I remember thinking hey this thing is too small to be the rigth part, but sure enough it was. But now that my job g/f and luck have gone out the door, I can't afford the $$$ right now.

 

It was pointed out to me that a balancer with the rubber section failing is like a grenade with the pin pulled.
It's only a matter of time before it explodes and exits any way it wants to.
Imagine the balancer spinning at say 3500RPM and BOOM! Imagine where it may "go".
And I am not kidding.
One can EASILY find ANY mass producing engine rebuilder and obtain a decent balancer for cheap. Like $20 or so.
One can easily find NEW balancers (many version V-6/V-8) for under $100 also (Northern Auto Parts)
I hear ya on funds.
But I would STRONLGY find an alternative, cheap & fast.
Before you have a big mistake happen.
One doesn't need a fluid balancer, jsut a stock unit is fine.
You make a stroker engine & you need a "Fluid Balancer" type & the associated bucks.
Your friend with the Nova, Send him to me, I'll show him my left over Corvette balancer.
You are playing with a grenade with the pin pulled, it's only a matter of time until....

 

Allright "mom" I'll see what i can do to get a new balencer.


TIMING UPDATE # 2:

Looked at the timing st by my father this morning, told me he had adjusted it while i was sleeping, oh *** I thought. Went out and he hadn't put it on ten, but 8*. He has been looking at the white out mark next to it. So, it was on 8*. I know that 10 maybe 12* on this car so I ran it up to 12* and ran it. Then went back and changed it to 10*. Di second test run and car didn't have that same kick in the *** feeling, like I had suddenly choked it down. But I still hear that noise from the valve cover passenger side area. So one more 10* test run in about an hour, and if it doesnt work still. Im going to try the first timing method, and see how it runs like that. If it doesnt knock or run bad, it's staying.

 

Long time ago, while driving, I had my wheel come off & luckily
The tire
Didn't hit another car
Didn't hit a person
It did cross the highway.
Just hoping you avoid a bad situation that's preventable.
For like $20 or so.
Twisting distb. toward the firewall makes the engine run stronger.
Is that correct for your car, too?

 

Yep 12* is the sweet spot