I know alot of you are running the MSD boxes, and I'm in the market for a new ignition. Is there anyone using the Crane or Accel? How do these stack up against the MSD stuff? Has anyone switched to Crane or Accel from MSD? Suggestions, opinions please!

 

No opinions? That's GOT to be a first here!

 

I'd also like to know. It seems like everybody is going with MSD but is there a good reason? What doesn't Accel have (not including the butt ugly brown distib cap) that MSD offers?

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, Jon (350 TBI!)
91 Red My website

 

i havent bought it yet but after researching i prob going to go with the accel 300+ ignition system. its smaller and produces more spark and doesnt draw form the battery alot. ITs more expensive the msd nad crane but keep in mind is new technology as well. I think mostly people go with msd b/c is cheaper and it has a built in rev control.

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91 camaro RS
- 305 TBI
Mods: Performer TBI intake, 1" TBI spacer, K+N, jet fan switch ,160 thermo,Accel control module, Jet Stage 2 chip, edelbrock TES headers, Compleate 3" Flowmaster exhaust, Edelbrock springs, KYB struts and shocks, 700R4 built by TSI, SLP tq converter, b+m trans cooler, white guage faces, megashifter..
next month: spohn LCA's and panhard rod, BMR relocation brackets, 323 gear

 

I have the same question posted on the electronics board and noone really seems to know,Crane claims they have 3 times more spark gap energy then MSD,the MSD has 158 milliamps and the Crane has 510 miliiamps,i dont know about Accel,but they claim to be the best.

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www.rearman.com/camarokid.htm

If it aint a V-8 that $hit aint fast!,unless its a GN,lol!

305 tpi,700r-4 with shift kit,My mods are minimal,just a bunch of little $hit.Anyone know where to get underdrive pulleys for a v-belt set up?

 

I have to say the reason I went with the MSD 6 Series was the fact that Nascar Cup & Busch series uses them. Now I'm not saying that the teams where given a choice of other system (Maybe Jacobs), but hey if it's good enough for Cup, them it's good enough for me.
MSD also has a hell of a lot more race experience then any other ignition system on the market. Two words - "Race Proven".

My hardest decision was between MSD and Jacobs, I'm sorry guys I didn't even consider Accel, Holley, or Crane.

I'm sure that if MSD wanted to put out 50 zillion volts or provide umpteen amount of crank rotation degrees and what not they would, but they don't, and there's research to that reasoning. I hope

I think Cup uses the MSD-6TN ???
I went with the MSD-6AL (yes this one does have the built in rev limiter, and I proscribed it a 6700RPM Pill !)

Now every thing I said is based on my opinion, and my MSD equiped car('82 TA) will be used for racing, not straight line, but road. There not much left on the car that is stock.

To be honest, and fair to the others I'm looking hard at the Accel 300+ for '94 Vette (daily driver).

Good Luck,

Ron




------------------
'82 Trans Am
'81 Camaro Z-28
'94 Vette LT1 Coupe

 

Just to give you guys a heads up, I have personally had bad experiences with MSD boxes, to the tune of 3 in a year. Yes they were hooked up right, and they were mounted where the battery used to be so they had plenty of cool air. It may just be that I had a streak of bad luck, I am switching over to a Holley Annilator. Of note, Summit always stood behind the MSD's, and I have heard that MSD does have great customer service.

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Black 89 IROC...Mods: 355, 10.5:1 comp, Big Solid Crower Cam, TFS heads, Victor Jr, Holley, and a 5 spd...12.72@ 116.9 with a 2.16 60ft time on BFG radial TA's

 

Gentleman,

First I hope this does not over step any bounds or come across the wrong way. If it does I apologize. You have to understand how they are getting this number. As apposed to rating their unit using the single spark output which is how it should be they are rating it counting the peak number of multi-sparks. Basically what I mean is that the unit will multi-spark at low RPM, below 3000. What is being done is when the unit fires the most times, they count the number of sparks and total that number. Most units will multi-spark 5-6 times around 400 RPM which would give them the total you see. Each spark is between 85-102 from their unit. If you want to compare apples to apples, our unit produces 575-690 in this area. If you really want to do a fair comparison and compare our digital box to theirs, then our unit would produce 675-810. We rated our ignitions like this a number of years ago, and ended up changing it to the more realistic real world number. It was misleading and we did not want that. Unfortunately they are doing it as a sales technique comparing to us(apples to oranges I might add), which is very misleading. Our biggest claim to fame if you want to call it that is our ignitions are used by more professional racers in all facets of racing then all other ignition companies combined. These racers do not care about price only about function. If there was an ignition that was better and cost five times as much they would use it. They use MSD because we do what we are designed to, we do it reliably and consistently. If you have any other questions let us know, and I hope this clears this up for you.

BOWTIROC,
I don't have a reason for the multiple failures on your car. If the units had come in we could have diagnosed what was failing and given a reason for them. It is very uncommon to have multiple failures on an application. The dealers are great as far as helping and we stand behind our product 100%. Good luck with your new purchase hope you have better luck. If there is anything I can help with let me know.

Thanks,

Joe
MSD tech

 

Hey Joe,

What will a 6AL ignition do for me? I currently have a 1984 Trans Am with a stock LG4 305. I do have an Accel supercoil with Accel wires. I expect it to give me noticeably better throttle response. Can I expect more than that? I have heard that there is a harness to directly wire it to my distributor without splicing the wires; is that so? Will the 6AL allow me to maybe tweak my timing to give more power? Thanks in advance.

Paul

BTW, do you know anywhere I can find the box cheaper that $170?

 

Yeah, I'd get MSD.

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89 RS

Looking For:
87 IROC-Z28 350 TPI

 

I had an MSD6A that lived for 15 years. Their real lifetime is probably somewhere between the two extremes.

 

Basically what the MSD 6 series ignition will do is produce a more complete fuel burn in the cylinder. By doing this you will increase performance, mileage, throttle response, starting and over all driveability. The amount will very from application to application but you will see a gain. You may be able to add some more fuel and or timing, this is really something that has to be tuned once the installation is done. The plug in harness for your 84 should be the 8876. You have the external coil and it should be the small e-core coil. My oldest personal box was built in 79, the oldest functioning customer box I have seen was a MSD 2 which was build in 72-73.

Thanks,

Joe

 

Thanks for your help Joe! I think it's going to be a 6AL for me.

 

All of these companies have spent years and a ton of money doing there research. In my opinion, they will all produce a good product. Me personally, I went with Crane HI-6 with their LX-92 coil. I am extremely plesed with the way that it installed, and with the way it runs. Before when at idle, my engine had a very rough idle now (if it weren't for the exhaust) you can barely tell its running. Also it pulls very strong to 6500 RPM. Before it struggled to get to 5900 RPM. If I had it to do over, ther would be no doubt in my mind to go with Crane!

 

Guys, I've tried both the Accel 300+ and the Holley Annihilator systems and had negative experiences with both.

I purchased and installed the Accel 300+ system. The car felt stronger at WOT but the Accel box created a miss at cruising speeds. I called their tech support line. HORRIBLE. Eventually I was told "well, that happens a lot with the Mustang guys." I was then told to flip two switches on the box in order to turn off the multi-strike function. The car ran worse.

Took everything out and sent it to Accel. They sent me another unit, which did the same thing. I put everything back in the box and returned it to the place I bought it from. Used my credit to buy a Holley Annihilator system. Car ran fine for a week. Saw no real improvement in performance. After a week my car started sputtering and running like crap. Took out the Holley system and the car ran fine.

So I put the system back in its box and returned it. Used my credit to purchase a Meziere water pump, because I was tired of dealing with ignition systems.

This summer I'm buying an MSD.

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Jed
89 Formula 350

 

This type of statement infers that EVERYONE will "see a gain". Please refrain from making claims as this as you are only setting yourself up.

I did NOT see any improvement whatsoever with a 6A box (performance or mileage). In fact, I noticed absolutely nothing. I could not tell the box was functioning at all, so I sold it two months later for $30. I have used Jacobs products since with the Pro Street my choice today. I saw an improvement of 0.2 seconds with this being the only mod a couple of years ago on a nearly stock engine. Today, I can't imagine what my improvement is on my highly modified 305.

Granted everyone has different opinions and or results. I personally know a former employee of MSD (who has a Ph.D. in physics) and with the information he has told me about the company, there is no doubt in my mind I will never buy MSD. Sorry guys, but I will not go into specifics. I will never condone a company or their products based on what my friend told me, but it was enough for me to shy away from MSD. I will however, state my personal experiences, which I've done.

I also asked a friend of mine with a BS in Electrical Engineering (a former MSD user) to check out Jacobs and their products. Needless to say but he now runs a Jacobs Pro Street. Enough said.

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Willie

Supercharged 1987 305 IROC-Z, Daily-Driver, Emissions-Legal.
Former Paxton (6-psig): 12.57 @ 111 mph.
Former Paxton (6-psig) & former 50-hp nitrous: 12.04 @ 114 mph.
Current ATI D1SC (Initially 10-psig): Projecting high 11's.
Future ATI D1SC (15-psig): Gotta catch them pesky 26-psig boosted TTA's!!

http://willie.camaro-firebird.org/

1987 "20th Anniversary Commemorative Edition" Z28 Convertible -- Super Chevy Show Class Winner, 1998.

 

Willie,
From your experience, what does Jacobs offer that MSD does not? I'm not asking you to bash MSD, or give a third party rendition of what your friends have said, but would like to know why you've chosen Jacobs. I only want the best for my car and if you've got ideas of what that may be, I'd like to hear them.

Thanks,
Paul

 

Paul,

It is not in my nature to bash anyone. I merely stated what I was told about MSD. I also stated my opinion, which anyone can disagree with.

When I am looking for an aftermarket part, I do a ton of research before I buy anything. I do not listen to anyone who typically says, "I felt a seat of the pants difference." Being an engineer, I want cold, hard figures. I want facts. And I am willing to pay to get the best.

That being said, I found that Jacobs ignitions are unique. They are not considered capacitive discharge as all the others are. Jacobs' boxes are microprocessors. They use the spark plugs as in-cylinder sensors. This is accomplished by noting the amount of resistance it takes to fire a plug. On the next revolution, this information is used to make the most optimum spark for that cylinder. By tailoring spark voltage, duration and phase angle for each cylinder on every stroke, this results in complete combustion. Jacobs holds a U.S. patent for this. And in case of a flame out, the microprocessor senses this and reignites the flame. No CD ignition can do this. Impressed? I certainly am.

Also, Jacobs' coils are the variable magnetic type. This type of coil regulates spark intensity and avoids a too hot spark which may cause knocks. Even with variable spark intensity, the voltage remains nearly constant throughout the rpm range, causing your engine to function more efficiently than any other stock or aftermarket coil.

Jacobs' ignitions are pricy, but I believe you get what you pay for. And their customer service over the years I've owned their ignition systems has been excellent.

If you'd like to contact the person I know with a EE degree and switched from MSD to Jacobs, send him an e-mail asking specifically why he chose to make the switch. He's our illustrious moderator of the Electronics Board, Tim Burgess. Tim knows far more about the intricacies than I do.

Willie

[This message has been edited by Willie (edited May 27, 2001).]

 

Just for the record! I talked to the MSD main office and they don't even have a Tech named "Joe" working for them!! Just thought I'd let you all know since we have all obviously been mislead!!

 

Willie,
I think my post came accross differently than I meant it to. I didn't mean to flame you, and I apologize if it seemed that way.I just wanted your opinion. Thank you for that, and you've certainly made me think twice about this.

Paul

 

Paul,

No need to apologize. I cannot be insulted very easily. I did not misinterpret your post, I just wanted to make sure everyone understood what I meant. Sometimes its hard to read between the lines.

I'm glad I've made you think more about what ignition to buy. All I'm suggesting for you (or anyone else) to do is to research throughly. Then make the most well informed decision you can. Knowledge IS power!! Good luck in whatever you decide.

Willie

 

Willie,
Glad there's no hard feelings...

I'll let you know when I get the cash what I've got!

Hey, if you don't mind would you send me an e-mail and let me know what your friends that you spoke of have said about MSD?

Thanks,
Paul

 

Yeah, I'd like to know more on this too.

------------------
89 RS

Looking For:
87 IROC-Z28 350 TPI

 

Willie,

You sound like you sell Jacobs. I am not going to get in a pissing fight over this I do not scan these boards to sell stuff, but try and answer questions when they come up. Willie you bought into their sales gimmicks, if you feel/are seeing the gains they claim I am happy for you. I knew when I first posted on this topic that it would appear I was trying to push MSD, I hesitated but still did. If you guys buy Accel, Crane, Jacobs mallory etc. great and I wish you the best and hope that the product you purchased works out for you. FYI, if these companies are so superior to MSD, then why is it in EVERY sanctioned racing series does MSD out number all other manufactures combined. Look at NHRA, IHRA, NASCAR, BUSCH, Score, NMRA, NSCA, just to name a few. These people look for 1/4-1/2 horse power, if these companies provided what they claimed, these racers would be using their product not MSD.
86TpiTransAm,
I do not know where you called, but it was not here to MSD ignition. I have been here for 10 years, and as for there not being a Joe that works here there are three in service alone. Our direct tech line is 915-855-7123, front office number is 915-857-7123, and my e-mail address is msdtech@msdignition.com, my extension is 186. SO BY NO MEANS HAVE YOU OR ANYONE ON THIS BOARD BEEN MISS-LEAD!! If you feel I have been a bother or miss-leading I will gladly stop posting. There has been numerous accounts on this board alone that people have requested parts wires instructions and I have sent them. If there is any question about it, call the numbers listed or go to MSD ignition and type tech. I have raced for a number of years and would prefer to be told something realistic rather then some sales HYPE. Like anything take what is said with a grain of salt, do your own research on top of what is said. I came onto this post to clear up how the numbers where seen, if this was taken any other way it was then taken out of context.

Thanks,

Joe
MSD Tech

[This message has been edited by MSD tech (edited May 29, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by MSD tech (edited May 29, 2001).]

 

MSD for a long lasting unit that can take a beating. I have the AEL and have had no probs, but wish I bought the MSD. Why, well it seems to be higher quality, my Accel was a gift one christmass...

 

I for one DON'T want to see 'MSD tech' leave the board or stop posting. Your information is just to damn valuable, and I think a lot people should be privileged for the fact that we have such representation from company’s like MSD!
Keep on posting Joe!

Ron



------------------
'82 Trans Am
'81 Camaro Z-28
'94 Vette LT1 Coupe

 

I used to have a Hi-6.I had it for 3 years.Sold it to my brother and it sranded him on the highway after only 3 months on the car,the car died on him and he called me not knowing what to do,I had to go and bypass it for him to get him going.My friend had a Jacobs on a Import Izuzu.It crapped the bed after 2 years,and they would not replace it for free,he paid $300 for it,plus he bought their $100 wires,the ones you push the ends on,well for a $100 bucks they sent him the wrong boots and sent him the new ones and he had to put them together himself.I have always run MSD wires on my car,the blue 8mm and now the red 8.5mm.I make my own.I always saw a gain with my ignition box on my supercharged car,especially when I ran the big gaps on my plugs.If i ever removed it,I noticed a bit of a difference,not 100hp difference but it was noticable enough to get my attention.Every box does the job just others do it cheaper and more reliably then the next.Just one more thing about the MSD boxes,please get rid of us having to buy rpm chips and put some rotary dials on the unit to save us car guys some cash.

 

In my experience, if you have something fail that was working or have a new high-quality MSD product fail Or other ignition or EFI, for that matter), it can be traced to shoddy installation. Ie, non-permanent/poor connections, bad vehicle ground(s), gound loops, improper power supply (bad wires/reg/spikes/etc), etc.

MSD and Jacobs have both worked well for me. Just make sure your installation is TOP NOTCH with no crimp terminals and otherwise poor "down-the-road corrodable" conections. Shoddy installation show up down the road. And for hella sake, don't let system wires dangle around in the engine compartment. wire movement will lead to some sort of failure SOONER, not later. Zip ties, convoluted tubing and soldering, that's the key.

[This message has been edited by FastBroker (edited May 31, 2001).]

 

Procharged89Z,

They do make rotory dials for the MSD ignitions. It's the MSD Digital 6 Plus, and it's a damned beauty lemme tell ya! Start retard, top-end retard in 1^ and .1^ incremements, rev limiter, and a 2-step rev-limiter to boot!


Joe (MSD tech)

I've had a very small problem with my ignition that I've troubleshot for around 3-4 months. My cap/rotors are fouling quickly to the tune of 2-3 days. The -ONLY- thing not MSD in my car is an Accel Supercoil and I've had problems before I added anything MSD to my HEI setup with it. Since adding it on an otherwise stock HEI setup with nothing more than Accel 8.8mm wires and an Accel cap/rotor it fouled the cap/rotors in a matter of 2-3 weeks.

When I yanked all stock crap and the Accel wires and cap/rotors for the MSD Digital 6 Plus, MSD 8366 distributor and the 8.5mm wires I thought for sure that problem would go away....I was dead wrong. Now cap/rotor life expectancy has dwindled to 2-3 days. Ever heard of this happening with the Accel Supercoil p/n 140008?? I have heard of instances that lead me to believe that this Accel coil is my problem.

Thanks,

Brian P
89 IROC-Z 355
Too many mods to list.....