87_TA

Hey all,
Its been recently brought to my attention that when disabling ccp forces ECM to stay in cell blk 4, that would explain my terrible gas milage since ive gone to 7730 before I had the tune closer.
Anyway back to my question,Is there an ill effect to enabling the CCP? mine is no longer in the car.
Or should i just let it stay in cell 4 and dont worry as long as my BLM's are all good?
I had always thought that it was supposed to stay in cell 4 and never even worried about it,I thought I had heard somewhere prior to install that was a special cell and ECM spent most of its time there.

Could really use some help on this matter ,especially for search purposes.
Grumpy,Trax,Doc,RRob,Smaterson,Any of you other good Hackers
I amy have forgotten?


Thanks for any help.

TRAXION

FWIW - I don't have the Charcoal Canister either. I have elected to keep the code for the CCP (don't disable it). I'd rather have the BL Cells swinging as necessary than to disable the CCP.

Tim

SMasterson

There is probably a way to disable the CCP and still be able to use all the available cells I'm just not far enough advanced in my tuning and bin hacking to do it. I've done a couple of other things I wanted and someday will tackle figureing that out. Actually, if the amount of CCP% was edited to enable the cells to change it would probably work, but that's another day for me.

I wasn't sure how I got it stuck in cell 4 at first. I make the mistake of changing too many things at one time. Started over and figured it out.

I believe, (from my tuning and driving experiences) that having the ECM use as many of the available cells as it can allows the engine to run considerably smoother for daily driving. With my cam, (CC306) I actually edited the BLM tables for MAP to force the ECM to use more cells. I spend most of my time between 50-100kpa, where I used to run between 30-100.

My observations are on cells are: When running in cell 6 at say 130 BLM and the conditions change and I go to a different cell when the ECM returns to cell 6 it will enter that cell at 130 BLM's, the amount it had learned. Eventually, with enough tuning, things stay closer to 128 and that's what I'm shooting for.

Trying to tune with just cell 4 just didn't work well for me.

In my drag race only chip I actually lock the BLM's at 128 but I'd consider it risky if your tune isn't close. I'm jumping straight into WOT conditons and don't care about the cells, or BLM's. All I'm interested in in consistency, (and eventually better performance.)

I also have not yet, (although there may be), found anything negative about the CCP being active even though I don't have one hooked up.

Keep on Tuning, and let us know if you learn anything new.

Synapsis

In the ANHT_HAC.pdf file, on page 222, there's (Force idle cell learn if canister purge duty cycle is less than 51%). I went through this same thing a year ago when I pulled my canister, I just leave the wiring there and have no problems. I'm a tad too lazy to change that 51% to 0%.

87_TA

Thx for the great help guys,
Its always appreciated.
Soon as weather gets above 10 degrees here ill give a try with CCP enabled.

TRAXION

Whooooooop - there it is. That's the key. However, the stock AUJP is set to 23.4% ... not 51%. I just verified this using old data from several diacom readings. As soon as the CCP went greater than 23.x% then the Block Learn Cell moved out of 4 and into whatever cell needed to be used. The Hex address is 522.

Tim

87_TA

Well I had a chance to enable CCP today and got out of cell 4
Car really does seem to drive alot smoother as master mentioned.

Thanks for the help guys.

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

So just by changing that value to 51 % will force ECM to oscilate cells ?

TRAXION

No - you set it to ZERO ... 0%. Basically, the stock AUJP will force the idle cell (cell 4) if the CCP is less than 23.4%. When you set it to 0% then this forced idle cell will never happen ... hence the reason that I don't idle in cell 4 any longer.

Tim

Grumpy

Get a WB, go open loop, tune for what actually makes the car happy.

Getting overly concerned over MPG in a hotrod can cost more in engine life than in gas savings.

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

I could care less for MPG !! I just want the most power I can squeeze out of it with-out going too lean.

Grim Reaper

Also, be careful. I recently had a friend running the AUJP without the CCP and it was dropping out of PE. We had to force it to stay in Cell 4 to keep it in PE.

This is something you need to watch VERY carefully. We discovered this with WB btw.

novakm

In the sticky's at the top of the board there are a couple of threads that deal with this. CCP duty cycle can get you stuck in cell 4, and it can also prevent highway mode

Everything you ever wanted to know about CCP:

BLM stuck on cell 4
CCP and how it affects highway mode

TRAXION

Glenn,

FWIW, I have never observed this ... and I have put myself in a perfect condition to observe it. I am never in cell 4 anymore. AFAIK, I never hit cell 4 at all ... ever. Maybe this is why my car idles so well with the big phat cam. Anyhow, at WOT in datamaster I can see the INT jump back to 128 and the bit status for BLM Enb (enable?) goes to 0. My BLM cell immediately jumps to 15. I've been searching for both the Learn Control flag and the PE Mode flag in Datamaster but I can't find them. Do you know where they are? Knowing how those are named in datamaster would help me to provide more information. Also - mine was verified via WB also. Changing the PE tables produces the expected change with regard to the WB at WOT.

Info concerning where to find the PE Mode bit and the Learn bit ...
PE Mode: L0046, bit 5
Learn Mode: L0047, bit 1

EDIT - Nevermid. I was informed (thanx a lot MD) that it's a RAM address and that I would have to "remap one of the ALDL words to read from memory location 46 and then interpret the bit". ouch. FURTHERMORE, I did some research and discovered that you definitely can view the Learn Control flag in datamaster. To accomplish this you must use the "View->Custom Data" option and add the Fuel/Air Mode WD. This is located in 0047 which is output via the ALDL on byte 66. So, configure your Datamaster Custom Data as shown in the following picture (which I had to attach later in this post because you can't attach a picture when editing a post). The Learn Control bit is the second bit from the right.

FWIW - Learn control DOES go off on my setup at WOT ... at the same time that the int goes back to 128 and at the same time that the BLM enable turns off.

Tim

Badas.sbird

What are you changing to make this stay out of cell 4. I dont see a referrence to CCP or Canister Purge in any tables in TunerproRT.

TRAXION

I am not intentionally trying to MAKE the ECM stay out of cell 4. Here is what I think is happening ...

1) I modified the BLM MAP and RPM boundaries to more closely represent the true boundaries with my current camshaft.
2) I disabled a FORCED idle cell based on CCP.

I think this is causing me not to be forced into cell 4. Furthermore, my cam idles in the mid-70 kPa region so this puts me in BLM cell 12 (high MAP, low RPM) given my new boundaries. Cell 4 for me would be low MAP, low RPM which I never hit. I do hit cell 5, 6, and 7 .... but mainly on a deceleration. I hit most of the mid MAP / mid RPM BLM cells during normal part throttle driving.

Regarding TunerPro ... you are either looking at the wrong constant or the constant "Force Idle Cell when CCP %DC is less than" is not yet defined in your ECU file.

Tim

87_TA

I have posted something about this before but nobody
responded, My car idles in cell 4 but also goes into 15 when @ wot.
CCP Is still active in code.
I have also seen weird BLM activity on occasion where the intergrator goes way south and BLM does not follow.
So intergrator will hit somthing like 102 and stay there for atleast 5 or more seconds while BLM is still at 125.

TRAXION

I should clarify something here. My CCP is also still active. It just has a minimum speed of ~50mph. Thus, CCP doesn't actually command until ~50mph. Why did I do this? I explained in a previous post but ...

1) I tried disabling the CCP using the flag for CCP but it didn't work.
2) I then used the speed setting and set the speed to 254. Great! CCP wasn't commanded but then Highway mode would not engage.

I got around this by only enabling CCP right before the speed for highway mode engagement.

SO - that leads to the next question. GLENN ... what did you do to disable CCP. Maybe that is what is affecting things????

Tim

TRAXION

Viewing Learn Control in Datamaster ...

Scott_92RS

Can you explain what's going on in that screen? What is byte 66? Is that byte 66 in the data stream? I thought there were only 63 bytes of info per data packet from the ECM, in mode 1.

Grim Reaper

That's just the point, initially the CCP wasn't disabled. It had all the settings for a stock CCP in the AUJP but didn't actually have a CCP.

This was a ZZ4 with a Stealth Ram installed in a 32 Ford Coupe. The whole thing had been setup by the people that put the ZZ4/Stealth Ram together including the ECM & $8D. They just couldn't get the engine to run right. It was a friend of a buddy and they came to me in desperation.

Dropping out of PE because of the CCP was just one of the many problems with the eprom - but it was the biggest problem of why they just weren't getting the power out of the setup.

I will have to look at all my notes and documentation that I did to get the eprom to remain in PE. I'm old and I don't remember ALL the details - anything beyond yesterday is too long ago for me.

It was one of the screwiest setups I've ever seen. I am stunned that there is a company that is actually marketing this as an "EFI package".

11sORbust

The only thing I have to add is how I learned to disable it. I go through "custom" chips that I pulled and replaced with my tune. Here is one of em,it's from a custom mail order $640 chip.....

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

Ok, now what one of those constants need to be set to 0 in order to stop the forced cell 4 idle ?

There's a ton of purge canister constants in tunercat, I'm still a little confused on what one to zero out.

TRAXION

Dude - I told you via e-mail EXACTLY the name of the constant to change ... the exact name. The name I mentioned matches none of the constant labels above.

Tim

92 zzz28

Could you tell me how to disable CCP. I have been having weird problems with getting knock retard and it seems to be related to the CCP is some way. I tried to disable it with the constants like in the image above, but it didn't work. IF you could fill me in on your secret method, maybe it could help me. Thanks in advance...

Ryan

Scott_92RS

Is this the one?

Scott_92RS

Oops, forgot to attach image:

The last item in the picture: "FORCE IDLE CELL LRN IF CCP DC LT 51" In the AUJP bin, the value at the same location is 60, not 51. Am I looking at the right value? Thanks!

TRAXION

Ok guys,

We are talking about 2 different things here. Some want to know how to disable CCP. Others want to know how to disable a forced idle BLM cell based on CCP. These are 2 totally different things. I'll start with disabling CCP. To disable CCP you want to set the Canister purge vehicle speed enable to 254mph. You then want to set the Canister purge vehicle speed disable to 253mph. Here's a picture from tunercat with the stock AUJP settings. PLEASE keep in mind that if you totally disable CCP then highway mode will not work. I currently have the speed for CCP enable 1mph lower then my speed for highway mode enable ... and my speed for CCP disable at 1mph lower than the enable setting.

Tim

TRAXION

To stop a forced BLM idle cell just set the "Forced BLM Idle Cell CCP %D.C. Threshold" to 0. The stock AUJP setting is 23.4% as shown in the following picture from tunercat.

Tim

Stevie

I think we are all on the same page. The byte is at $8522. AUJP shows it as 60 which is 23.5% of 255. I gotta try this one, I hate cell 4.

Steve

92 zzz28

Thanks for the info Tim...

Scott_92RS

Sweet! Thanks for the confirmation! I'm sure this will help a few people out! Please note: That constant is not in the "Stock" $8D TDF file (Not in mine at least), you'll need the TDF editor to add it to the constant list, using the location listed above by Stevie.

92 zzz28

That would explain a few things!!!

I guess I won't play with that then after all. Well, not until I feel comfortable enough to play with the TDF Editor. Thanks.

TRAXION

Guys,

These constants are definitely in the stock $8D TDF. If you don't see it then e-mail TunerCat for an updated TDF. Keep in mind that he updates the TDFs all the time. If you don't keep watch and ask for the updated TDFs then you will always be out of the loop and not realize that you actually have an outdated TDF. In Stevie's case - he has an outdated TDF because everything I posted is in the stock $8D TDF.

Tim

92 zzz28

Well, then... Ok. My TC is about 1.5 years old and I never got any upgrades. Do you think it is possible to upgrade now after all this time? Hope so...

Thanks again Tim

TRAXION

If you have a legal copy of the $8D TDF then all you have to do is e-mail tunercat and ask for the upgrade along with telling him who you are.

Tim

92 zzz28

Hey Tim,

I went ahead and got the upgrade off of TunerCat. Version 2.00. I had 1.73 before. Well, I loaded it, alls well there, but I still don't see that constant. What do you think?

BTW, just in case. Are we talking about the Tuner program or the TDF Editor program? I ask because I noticed in previous posts the mention of "$8D TDF" used often. I just want to make sure I am on the same page as you guys...

Thanks

91L98Z28

you have to email them to get the updated definition file for $8d. there is the tuner program itself, then the definition file for each mask.

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

Traxion -

My $8D tdf did not have that constant. That's why I was a little confused on what to change. My new TDF does, so now I am able to change it.

Now that I wont be in cell 4 anymore, what should I set my MAP and KPA boundaries to, to more fit my motor's needs?

I'm still a little in the dark on this one.

Sorry for being a "tard" !

THanks again!

Mike

TRAXION

First, I can't guarantee that you won't be in cell 4 anymore. This is just what worked on my setup.

Second, I can't tell you what MAP and kPa boundaries to use. They are going to be different for different modifications. You're going to have to do a little work on this one. Drive your car around and record data. Analyze it as I told you in the previous e-mail.

Tim

92 zzz28

Okay, so I need to email TC and ask them for the updated $8d mask. Is that correct? Thanks

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

Yep