This is on the '88 car in my sig (2.8L V6).

The idle is very erratic, and I think the timing chain probably has a lot to do with it (car has ~127,000 miles). Also, I've got a coolant leak from the water pump and a very slight oil leak from the front seal, so I'm hopefully going to be fixing a lot of things tomorrow.

Anyway, I've been reading my Haynes manual, and it looks pretty straightforward. A couple of things it didn't mention, though: how much of the accessories will have to come off (I have A/C, and it's a serpentine belt system)?

Another thing that it mentioned was that the water pump bolts also hold on a lot of the timing cover. It said there is a risk of the coolant getting into the oil, so I need to make a special "bracket" type thing to keep the timing cover on as I pull the water pump off. Is this really necessary? I've never dug this deep into this engine before, but it looks like there would still be a few bolts holding the timing cover on, even with the water pump off.

I just want to make sure that I can get this done tomorrow without any unexpected hangups. I've devoted all day to doing this; I can't have the car in pieces at the end of the weekend or else I won't be able to get to school.

Thanks for any tips/advice!

 

Nah, don't worry about making the metal bracket. That warning is for if you're just changing the water pump- and I never made the bracket, either. All the top bolts of the water pump do go through the timing chain, and if you were pulling on the pump, you might break that seal.

BUT- there's also a handy spot in there for a crowbar to pry the top of the water pump off and -away- from the timing chain cover. Make sure you work the crowbar so you pull it towards you, so the "pivot" is actually against the water pump. Since you'll be yanking the timing chain cover anyway, it won't matter if you break that seal; you'll be breaking it anyway.

 

Right along with tomp. your gonna be pulling that seal apart anyway. Just once your all done, very last thing, change the oil. Then change it again sooner then usuall. That way, if you did get any crap in the system, you will be getting it out ASAP.

My engine was in a crate, on the floor when I did it. So not sure as to what all accessorys come off. I DO know FOR SURE, the power steering bracket comes off.

Becareful when you scrape the surface to get old gasket off. Any nicks in the surface, you have a leak. Makesure you are #1 TDC BEFORE pulling the old chain off. The came turns twice to 1 of the crank correct? Or exact opposite. But if its not right, you get screwed FAST.

People are always on the board. If you have any questions or doubts, STOP, come ask!!!

 

Thanks for the replies!

Your responses make me think of a couple more questions...

First off, as part of my "major tuneup", I planned on finally switching my oil over to synthetic (I'm sold on either Mobil 1 or Amsoil). So, while I do plan on changing my oil after this chain swap, I do not want to be wasting expensive synthetics because I'm trying to flush coolant out of the oil.

I had a bad experience with getting coolant into good oil this last fall; luckily, I never ran the engine with any coolant in the oil. But, even after a *LOT* of flushing hot, clean oil through that engine, I can tell you that after I took the engine out and pulled the pan there was still notable evidence of coolant all over the engine.

So, what I'm basically getting at is that I would like very much to *not* ever even get coolant into my oil. Like I said, I've never gone this deep into this engine; I'm comming from working on a small-block Chevy, where this wouldn't even be an issue for changing the water pump. But the pump/timing chain cover seem to be a whole different beast on this car. Is there any way to avoid having coolant get into my oil?

Also, with regards to the timing chain... I've installed timing chains in SBCs before, and I understand the theory behind positioning the sprockets and what not. However, when I was doing it before, the lifters were not loaded. This time, though, the heads will obviously staying on, which means the springs will be putting pressure on the lifters and, ultimately, on the cam shaft. Will I be running into any issues with needing to rotate/hold the camshaft, or should it still be easy enough to hand-turn even with the force of the springs still on it?

Thanks again for the help...

 

You're going to far into theory.
IF ya done other before these tips help w/V-6.
Get the original chain, dot to dot & keep in position for all changes.
Fluids in oil.
No worry as ya drain the water first.
Pull bottom rad hose off the pump, let water out that way.
Go get a SLEEVE for the balancer, they cost $4.
DO a search about timing chain swaps.
I list all part numbers from Fel Pro & another brand for the balancer sleeve, timing chain kit, too.
It's 1:30am & cold out, not into searching for the parts in garage.
When seeking to remove the timing chain cover, there are two wonderful tiny bolts down on front of pan. I believe 10mm or 8mm. MAKE SURE you reattach those to chain cover so no stripping the threads.
I wouldn't use sythetics as with age of this engine, doubt if do any big deal dif for the cost.
NEW ENGINE now ya talking.
Change oil frequently equals engine longevity. 1 quart of synthetics equals whole cost of cheap oil engine & filter job.
Removal of stuff.
Unbolting AC compressor, lift and push aside, alternator, same story, PS stuff, same story.
Ya can leave all attached real easy, keep unbolting stuff and push aside, continue down path to:
smoother idle
Better power
better gas milage
better emissions
cooler running engine
YA MAY NEED to also rebuild the distributor.
Checkout search for tips how to accomplish that, too.
With good friend help, did chain swap in 4+ hours.

 

I wasnt refuing to coolent in the engine. It should be fully drained before you get that far. I was talking gasket scraping landing in that little lip of a pan that will be exposed.

I didn't know you had changed chains before. Sorry for the long explenations.

My engine was fairly easy to roll over. I would use the key to "bump" the engine, then take ratchet and socket to crank tell its right.

 

Sounds good.

I'm getting ready get started on this right now, but I've just got one last question (you might have already answered it): would it be okay for me to pull the water pump and timing cover as one piece? Then, I can worry about getting the water pump off outside of the engine...

I might have more questions in a little while, but I expect that things should be pretty straightforward...

 

NOO. If your worried about antifreeze in the engine. Pull the pump first. Then cover later.

 

Do what I said to do- upper-passenger side of the water pump, there's a spot where you can put a crowbar in. When all the pump bolts are out, put a pry bar in that spot, and pull the top of the pry bar towards you. Off pops the pump.

I think the Haynes manual scared you with the way they worded it- it's not a touchy operation!

The worry here is that someone will try to change their water pump, and break the seal between the timing chain cover and the engine block. Then they'll put a new pump on, without realizing that the cover-to-block seal is shot.

The pump circulates water THROUGH the timing chain cover and into the coolant passages in the block.

If that cover-to-block seal was disturbed, coolant would go through the timing chain cover, [i]leak out into the timing chain cover because the seal was broken[i], and then into the coolant passageways.

Hopefully this diagram will explain the timing chain cover seal, and how it could affect a car if the seal was broken, never fixed, and the engine started up with a new water pump.

 

Good diagram tomp.

Reason I say no is that the bottom of that timing chain cover goes/flanges with oil pan. If you break apart where tom showed, it would leak that fluid down into your oil pan. Which you stated above you DON'T want.


I just realized, this is like 7 hours later. Hope you got it done, and to your satisfaction!

 

(laughs) Thanks, Dale. That's about the extent of my drawing skills (straight lines)!! And I definately agree; water pump, THEN timing chain cover. And yeah, the job should either be done or almost done by now, eh?

 

Yeah, one would think that I would be done by now. But you all know how it goes: the deeper into your engine you dig, the more stuff you find that you need to "fix" along the way.

Actually, the real reason I'm not finished yet is that, for <i>whatever reason</i>, GM decided to put only one 12mm 12-point bolt in the driver's side accessory bracket. Of course, I only had 12-point sockets in 10mm, 11mm, 13mm, 14mm, etc... So, I had to go chase down a new socket, and by the time I got back home, there was only a little daylight left. That's the first 12-point bolt that I've ever run into, and I have no clue what constituted the need for it.

By the time the water pump was off, I decided that I didn't want to change a timing chain in the dark, so I'm closing shop until tomorrow.

The water pump change was long-comming, though: I didn't even need to pry on the water pump. The gasket was so saturated that the pump just fell off after the bolts we out, and most of the bolts felt loose to begin with. I'm toying with the idea of just returning my rebuilt pump and just putting the old one back with the new gasket; all of the leakage was from around the gasket, anyway. That, and I got the replacement "Valucraft" pump from AutoZone--there's just something about a company with the word "Valu" in the name that makes me suspicious about the quality of the product...

Anyway, I'll finish it up tomorrow. Thanks for the replies.

 

Glad its just the lack of tools holding you up.

 

STRONGLY DO NOT SUGGEST YOU REINSTALL THE OLD PUMP.
Do it smart & right.
12mm bolt is there as that's what some engineer thought would be correct.
I still curse the engineer that designed the heater core swap for a BMW 2002!
Or maybe GM bought a bunch of 12mm bolts and found a way to get rid of them.
On my set up I have 11mm, why not?
BEST TIP TO ALSO OFFER IS TO let all the seals dry overnight overnight after job is done.
Hope you found a balancer snout sleeve.
PS the end result is very worth it.
Next to do is distributor rebuild to enjoy the whole ignition system like it was on day one.

 

i started mine this evening (in garage with lights) anyways, problem i am into is taking off the balancer pulley. i don't have the right scoket for the center bolt..(anyone know waht size it is?)
and how do you turn the center bolt without the whole pulley turning with it???

thanks guys

 

I belive mine was like a 17 or 19mm.

I was able to losen w/o engine cranking.

To tighten, I used impact.

 

You have an automatic trans? If you had a manual, you might've just gotten away with leaving the trans in gear with the engine off.

You'll need to drop the flywheel cover. This has two 10mm screws at the bottom, and two 15mm bolts near the top. Once you do that, wedge a screwdriver into the flexplate so it will wedge against something. I believe I stuck our screwdriver through one of the holes in the center of the flexplate. If you have a friend nearby, you could have them try to jam the screwdriver into the flywheel as you turn the crank pulley.

I'm 99% sure that I was able to turn the motor by hand, by grabbing onto the torque convertor, while wedging the screwdriver in.

 

thanks guys

yeah dale, i measured the bolt...i figured either 19mm or 11/16". figures, i have 18, 20mm, 5/8, and 3/4. oh well. so when i go pick up a socket at the store tomorrow, should i get the metric or the standard??

yes tom, i have auto. i am hoping that once i get the right socket, i can get it loose with out having to do what you said. fingers crossed.

thanks for the help guys.

 

A 1988 car will be metric.

If you had like an 82 or something, it would be standard.

 

See if ya can borrow a 19mm 1/2" set up with breaker bar.
To your advantage.
Breaking the balancer loose is sometimes a challenge.
Have the big toys available right away to help in this mission.
Ya need 8mm, 10mm, 13mm, 15mm, 17mm, 19mm.
And be prepared for the odd sized one.
Really is a worth while mission.

 

RE: Balancer Removal...

If you have an impact wrench, it will probably make quick and easy work of the bolts.

If not, you can either do what TomP said, or it becomes a two-man job. For my part, I didn't want to take the inspection cover off. So what I did was to get two breakover bars, each with 1/2" sockets. I got my dad to put his on one of the bolts to stop the crank, and I put mine on the bolt opposite of his. This, of course, while loosening one bolt, makes the other tighter. So, you'll probably hit a point when you get 3 bolts loosened, but you're always tightening another. When that happened, I was ready to remove the center bolt, so I had my dad change his socket to the socket for the center bolt, and we did a similar thing, except this time we stuck a crow bar between the two sockets to stop rotation.

Anyway, that's what I did. It sounds complicated but it really isn't--took less than two minutes, and I didn't have to pull the inspection cover or do anything around the flexplate.

Like I said, though: the impact wrench would make it a quick job.

 

RE: Timing chain swap…

Well, I finished the job up yesterday. Man, that timing chain was floppy—it probably had more than an inch of play, and it felt like I could have just pulled the chain off of the sprockets without even removing anything else. The sprockets were pretty chewed-up, too. The new chain is much tighter—it “hugs” the tensioner in the middle nicely with barely any slack. Definitely needed to be changed a long time ago…

The only thing that I wasn’t prepared for was the oil pan gasket. First of all, I never read in my manual (nor did I see it anywhere on the boards) that I was going to be messing with the oil-pan gasket. Also, when I talked to my machinist at the machine shop, he said that I wouldn’t need to break the oil-pan gasket. So I was a little surprised to find that the timing cover was stuck on something when I was taking it off. It wasn’t stuck on those bolts (my car didn’t have oil-pan to timing-cover bolts at all), but it was glued to the lip on the oil pan gasket. So I ended up tearing that gasket off accidently. Plus, I later learned that my year comes with one-piece gaskets—so I couldn’t just replace the lip part of the gasket.

I just ended up RTVing the heck out of the rip in the gasket, so *hopefully* it won’t leak. But, with the exception of that, it’s gone pretty well.

Thanks for the help, guys. I’ve heard nothing but praise about doing this swap, so I can’t wait until tonight when I get to test it out (hopefully I didn’t screw anything up ).

 

It's 1:30am & cold out, not into searching for the parts in garage. When seeking to remove the timing chain cover, there are two wonderful tiny bolts down on front of pan. I believe 10mm or 8mm. MAKE SURE you reattach those to chain cover so no stripping the threads.


I guess you missed this part.

I used a timing chain cover gasket & cut the remaining on engine block one piece, before I replaced T. cover on the oil pan lip. Definetly used Black RTV. Worked ok.
I have to go back in, tho.
My Firebird, I have to replace the tensioner (that I neglected to!) & add a balancer sleeve to the 3.4 balancer.
Mine leaks from front slightly.
Oh well.

 

Karl, actually those bolts are missing in 87-up 2.8's, when they started using the 1-piece rubber oil pan gasket. 82-86 2.8's used a two piece oil pan gasket; the rear section around the main seal was rubber, then the rest was cork- all the way up from the rear back of the oil pan to around the front of the pan... like a streched out "U".

Sancho, I doubt you'll have any leaks, as long as you used enough RTV, and you wiped off the pan flange and bottom of the timing cover flange so they were free from oil. Glad to hear all went well! How was it pulling the gear off the crank?

 

TomP: I actually didn't have any problems getting the gear off of the crank. It's probably because I've had so much practice on my L98 (gone through three chains) that I've learned some tricks. For example, the bolt heads like to pop out from underneath the gear teeth once they feel some pressure from the puller. So I like to get a big C clamp to put across the two bolts and press them into the gear. After that, I used the old gear along with a big socket and hammered the new gear on. The actual chain swap probably only took like ten minutes.

--------------------------
I just got back in from test-driving my car for the first time with the new chain. Man, it's so nice not having to see my tach needle jump around all over the place. It definately helped the idle a lot, which was mostly what I was going for. I could even feel a power increase--nothing night-and-day though (and I guess I shouldn't expect that from this engine). I still can't even squeak the tires, even if I punch the accelerator from a stop. Gotta be in reverse to do that even a little.

But there's still room for some tuning up. I should probably still rebuild the distributor. I put the timing light on it, and the timing mark would "disappear" ever so often--like a plug is not firing or something). Also, I've had to advance the timing by a lot just to get it to run decently (almost off of the scale on the timing cover). Of course, that might just be the balancer slipping.

Another big thing that would affect the idle quality is my injectors. As it is, they're not a matched set (4 are original, and 2 are new). I'm not even positive that all of the old ones are flowing like the should. I put in some injector cleaner, so hopefully that should help.

But, other than that, it's kinda nice to breathe some new life in to this car. I just wish I could do something about my transmission (OD is probably about to go, and I just don't have the money to rebuild it)...

Thanks again for all of the help!