Hey everyone,
Well my car is in serious need of tuning, and I'm really excited for these two technologies that are coming out here on the boards, but I'm not entirely sure of the differences/similarities between the two of them. As far as I can tell, here's what's up:

Autoprom:
-Device that burns chips for your ECM, except that it can only burn certain types of chips (AT29C256 & AM29F040B), which may or may not work in your ECM (?)
-Not permanently left in your ECM case
-It is however in the ECM case when you're running emulation
-Able to log "ALDL" data, except much faster than the standard rates (?)
-Three extra inputs for whatever you want, but not currently sofware supported

Prominator:
-A Device that's more or less a replacement for the chip in your ECM, so it stays in the case, and you just write to it from a laptop
-On the fly updating is available in the pro version, but for the standard version you have to shut off the car while it updates
-Uses the parallel port on the computer, so that the serial port can still be used for ALDL logging
-I assume it doesn't support higher speed logging of ALDL data
-Might need a Moates adapter to install it into your ECM (8746??)

Trust me, I've read and read, and this is what I can pull from it, but I'm just wondering if I'm correct in my assumptions. I don't want to buy something and find out I was completely wrong about it. Basically which one will allow me to keep my dash together and not have to keep yanking the ECM out? How is each one installed in the ECM (and more specifically the 8746?)?

Thanks so much for your patience guys!
Tony

 

Wow, Tony. I was just going over in my head how I was going to post a similar question!

I'm totally new to all of this stuff, and need advice on what will work better for me.

I just recently completed converting my truck from an 8747 ECM to a 7060 PCM.

I will be using the following:

http://www.efi-tuning.org/forum/inde...=ST&f=17&t=98&

So, will the Prominator or the Autoprom be best for me?

Thanks

Bill

 

Well the autoprom is a great all in one device. its nto stuck in one vehicle. and your friends could split the cost should they need prom work done. It does everything at once very well. The prominator is a single use type of dvice designed for permanent instilation. good product.

It boils down to versatility. So thats what yu get. I prefer the autprom although i knwo that the prominator is a quality device. i just have to many cars running retuned ecms to not have the platform style versatility to move it to whatever vehicle im working with at the time.

PS sorry for my abscence guys. been busy with alot of BS.

 

So if I go with the Autoprom, I'd have to keep taking chips out and putting chips back in the ECM? How do you set it up for emulation? Does it do highspeed ALDL like lockers?

 

You pretty much nailed it on the head! Autoprom is good for later model ECM's that you can use the ALDL functionality with. There's no such functionality at all with the Prominator. There are distinct advantages and disadvantages to each. The choice is up to you!

Also, the latest revision of the Prominator will have a "bin switching" setup where you can load up multiple images and switch between them on the fly. (i.e. track, economy, valet, etc.) We've already got the switch and even the mounting figured out.

 

AWESOME! That is way cool. This means I can have a WOT spark advance for the track and another WOT spark advance for the street. Definitely cool! Now I might actually be able to get some traction on the street.

t

 

Hi Ken,

It seems that in the spirit of collaboration, nobody wants to step on anyone elses toes. However, it would be beneficial if one of you four could outline these "distinct advantages and disadvantages to each."

It may be uncomfortable, but for those of us who are new to the tuning game, it would be most beneficial.

Thanks!

 

Why? TonyC has listed them right there for you! That's why I was saying, he's hit the nail on the head!

 

Okay, I didn't understand that the Autoprom could be removed and thought that Tony was mistaken on that point. I went back and did some rereading and that seems clearer now.

I understand the other points illustrated by Tony in his original post. However, I don't have the experience to really appreciate what these differences translate to... the subtleties, if you will. As it stands, I'm not really sure why I wouldn't buy the Autoprom since it's only $50 more than the Prominator Pro.

Thanks for your help.

 

Let me see if I can shed some light, and correct me if I'm wrong, on the big-item features list:

Prominator:
- CPLD/Flash-based equivalent to a chip. You can solder it in where your old chip went, or you can plug it into a chip adapter or chip socket.
- You can reprogram the device with a cable that goes to a PC parallel port. Software's real simple, just upload the new binary and it's there. You do this with the key on, engine off. On the Pro version, you can do this while the car is running without interruption. However, you have to upload the whole BIN. It's pretty fast, like a couple of seconds, so that's not so bad.
- You can have multiple binaries on the Prominator. You can switch between them with a remote switching unit.

AutoProm:
- All-in-one device, which programs 29C256 and 29F040 chips, reads any 24/28/32-pin memory chip, performs as a stand-alone datalogger for 8192 and 160 baud, does real-time emulation/on-the-fly tuning for up to 4mbit memories. Also has 3-channel A/D converter.
- You can do ALDL datalogging (8192 or 160-baud), A/D conversion (3-channel 0-5v or 0-15v), and emulation/tuning all at the same time through the same com port at the PC.
- There's no 'acceleration' of data, since the ECM still only supplies it at a given rate, either 8192 or 160, so it's not like Lockers in that respect. However, the A/D channels can be sampled at 500 Hz or so if you want.
- Compatible with TunerPro and TunerCat R/T. This means you can use existing TDF files for editing/realtime tuning.
- All functionality supported by Mark Mansur's TunerPro software. The 160-baud and A/D stuff is working fine, along with everything else.
- If you want to use it to do ALDL-based PCM updates on a 94/95 LT1, it will work for that also.

So, pros and cons? I don't know. Here's a shot:

Prominator:

Pros: Easy to use, allows a 'chipless' system, can update programming with a remote cable, install service available. Pro version allows updates while car is still running.

Cons: Sort of a 'single-user' device designed for permanent install (not necessarily a bad thing), may require soldering. Functionality limited to utility as a chip replacement option.

AutoProm:

Pros: Very versatile, combines many functionalities into a single device. Other than a chip adapter or socket, it comes with everything you could need. Does ALDL communication, chip burning/reading, A/D datalogging, and realtime emulation.

Cons: Has a pretty steep learning curve, and requires a fair amount of knowledge of how things 'need to be'. Cost is a little high. Not a permanent install, so you'll still need chips (it does the chip burning for you though). Pretty new product, so not too much to pull from in terms of user experiences yet.


Hope I haven't confused things too much!
-Craig

 

That helps, Craig. Thank-you.

 

Just thought I'd chime in and add something regarding the autoprom:

- though craig might not recommend it (I'm not sure, really), you can run the car indefinately off of the autoprom. This means you could potentially hook it up to the ECM and mount the AutoProm under the dash. I've been running my car off of it for a number of days at a time and no reason to believe it wouldn't work perminantly. I plan to try installing just above the kick panel, such that I can still access the AutoProm easily. This would eliminate the need to to have the ECM on the floor, have an additional ALDL cable to plug/unplug (Just wire it to the AutoProm and you're done), and allows you to have only one single umbilical (the serial cable from the AutoProm to the Laptop) required to tune.

I know little about the Prominator other than what is posted. Hopefully one day (given the resources) I'll make TunerPro compatible with it. From what I do know, the Prominator is a *very* convenient device for people who will only be tuning/playing with their own, single car.

just my $.02.

I'm extremely happy wit the way Craig and Ken/Bill have been working together trading ideas and hope everyone recognizes that they/we all have the same ultimate intent: to further the DIY community and make tuning-goodness accessable to everyone interested in it. Why is it done? Because its fun. (hey... thats good. I should write that down.)


M

 

Hmm, yes. That cord IS rather inconvenient. Hmm...

 

Thanks for the explanations guys! And not only thank you for that, but an enormous thanks for the time and effort you guys have put into creating solutions for nagging problems in the DIY community. You guys really do rock, I just wish I could give the DIY community something like this. Thanks So much!!!


:hail:

 

Thanks for all the responses.

Everything is much clearer now

I'll be using the AutoProm, as I use a 29C256 chip in the 7060.

Also, the custom calibration ($85) I'll be using has a TDF file written for it.

 

Hey Guys.

I really have not posted much on this forum but I wanted to let you all know that I have been working with Bill using the Prominator and it works great. I have an 84 Vette and I am using the 7747 version. I would like to see some integration with TunerPro. It is somewhat of a pain to flip around three programs - TunerPro, WinALDL, Prominator. But I am sure it will be worked out over time. The Prominator is the simplist out of the three. Select bin and download. I spent about 40 mins yesterday getting rid of an off idle stumble. I got more done yesterday than I would have if I had to burn proms. But this is the point.

I wanted to let you know that the Prominator is moving along swimmingly and I for one am a happy user. (sorry but I needed to put in some good words for Bill - I hope you don't mind) :hail:

 

Couldn't have said it better my friend. There's no competition here, one product is ideal in certain situations, the other product is ideal in other situations. We do need to talk about software compatibility. Shoot me an Email when you get a chance.

To address a couple of Tony's points...

Is the Autoprom compatible with the 8746's 27C32 EPROM?

For the prominator you do not need a Moats adapter with the 8746. You only need that with the ECMs that have the combined memory module (MEMCAL?), or whatever that thing is called. In the 8746 the EPROM socket is removed from the ECM and the Prominator is soldered in its place. Here's a picture of one sitting in a 7747 (which is almost identical physically to your 8746):



The parallel port connector in that picture is sitting a little higher than it normally will sit. The connector should be flush with the housing of the ECM. In the final version there will be another 10-pin connector to the left of the parallel port connector to go out to a rotary DIP switch.

There is a little info at http://misterbill.homeip.net/aboutprominator.asp It needs some updating, but maybe that'll help. Suggestions always welcome!

 

Couldn't have said it better my friend. There's no competition here, one product is ideal in certain situations, the other product is ideal in other situations. We do need to talk about software compatibility. Shoot me an Email when you get a chance.

To address a couple of Tony's points...

Is the Autoprom compatible with the 8746's 27C32 EPROM?

For the prominator you do not need a Moats adapter with the 8746. You only need that with the ECMs that have the combined memory module (MEMCAL?), or whatever that thing is called. In the 8746 the EPROM socket is removed from the ECM and the Prominator is soldered in its place. Here's a picture of one sitting in a 7747 (which is almost identical physically to your 8746):



The parallel port connector in that picture is sitting a little higher than it normally will sit. The connector should be flush with the housing of the ECM. In the final version there will be another 10-pin connector to the left of the parallel port connector to go out to a rotary DIP switch.

There is a little info at http://misterbill.homeip.net/aboutprominator.asp. It needs some updating, but maybe that'll help. Suggestions always welcome!

 

Bill,

What are you going to do about the remote switch? You might want to take a look at what I already have put together and consider something compatible. I can send you a couple if you want. It's pretty slick and real basic. A small box with rotary 16-position 4-bit DIP, feeding into a quad inverter and a TIL311 (sweet display device!) that shows 0-F hex. I've got a handful here, and have the pinout posted at moates.net under 'Switcher info'. It's just a 10-pin IDC header /w/ ribbon. Works real good. It does, however, pick up interference for some reason on the address lines. I ended up adding 10pF caps at the adapter board by the ECM and that took care of it. I could probably have just used some harder pullups instead. You'll likely have some sort of similar experience in this regard.

Anyways, figured I'd throw that out there. It's the 'EX' product.

 

*IN*convenient???? Is that a hint to wireless, or a typo?

Hmm.. bluetooth?

 

Craig,

Right now its just a simple single-sided pcb with the switch and a 10-pin header on it. It will be panel-mountable, but no display or anything. I did lay out the new prominator board to accept decoupling caps on the address lines (been there done that!), those are being made this weekend.

I'll have a look at your setup when I get a chance and give you a ring if need be.

Thanks for the heads-up!

 

Ok, I will make the remote DIP switch header on the Prominator board compatible with your little box...piece 'o cake. That will give folks one more option for the remote DIP.

 

Ok, I also have some questions. Thank you guys for explaining it this far, but Im still confused on some of the tech talk? I think thats where I get caught up and my mind wonders off to its happy place.
still I have zero clue on what emulation is. From what I read, it has something to do with instant tuning where you dont have to burn a prom, you just plug and chug.
Dont know what bin is. I am going to guess a bin is a file that stores the PROM information. Reading on in that thread, it looks like one can switch bins. Is that somethng like Bank's 6 shooter system for diesels?

So you CANT do ALDL datalogging with Prom, but you can with Auto?
Looks as if Auto is a bit more for the advanced crowed in chip burning, but PROM also looks as if you need to know what your doing.
I like the idea of PROM's direct link to the ECM, even if you might have to put in an adapter. Im still very worried about soldering anything into the ECM, but I guess you would have to do that with a chip anyway right?
I belive I have a MEMCAL and I would need to put in an adapter either way.
I was really getting into this, and then I stopped visiting the site. I have a lot of catching up to do. Thanks guys
Alex

 

I will try to explain what emulation means based on my experience.

With an embedded system, like an ECM, you have a microprocessor controlling some external hardware. During the design phase engineers will typically use an emulator to debug the design. What the emulator itself will do is attach to the board in place of the microprocessor and allow the designer to step through the microprocessor code one line at a time and monitor the system operation...one line of code at a time. Thus by "definition" an emulator is a tempory item. When all the bugs are worked out, the emulator is removed and the normal microprocessor is installed for normal operation.

How this translates to tuning...

Think of the EPROM that stores your engine calibration data as the microprocessor in the above example. When you "emulate" you are temporarily replacing the EPROM with an emulator. You use the emulator to quickly and easily modify the contents of the EPROM while monitoring engine performance, essentially working out the "bugs" like in the above microprocessor example, until you are happy with the results. Once you are happy with your modifications, you remove the emulator, program your new data to an EPROM, and install your EPROM back into the ECM.

As I understand it, ROMulator and AutoProm are emulators, AutoProm having an EPROM programmer and ALDL scanner integrated (Craig please correct me if I'm mistaken here). Prominator does not do ALDL scanning/datalogging.

How the Prominator differs from an emulator...

When you are done "emulating", there is no need to burn an EPROM. The Prominator keeps the data that you program it with. The Prominator completely replaces the EPROM chip itself. That's where the name comes from...PROM elimINATOR.

The "bin" file is indeed the file that gets "burned" into the EPROM (or Prominator). This file is typically in binary format (not viewable in a text editor), thus the .bin file extension.

Prominator does support storing multiple .bin "images". There is no "stacking" required (stacking is combining multiple .bin files into a larger single .bin file). You simply set the switch to the position that you want to load your .bin file to, or that you have already loaded a .bin file to and want to run from. The "default" switch setup will provide 8 positions, but we can go up to 16 if so desired. Think of it as having 8 EPROMs that you can just turn a switch to select from.

Hope this helps.

Bill

 

thank you very much Mr.Bill. I was almost right!
All in all, im still very confused on exactly what to do. I know im gunna need some serious tuning coming up with the head and cam swap along with TC and rear end gears to dial it all in for a good run. I like the idea of having multiple programs or bins, and like someone said in another thread, the ability to run many levels of performance.
thanks again, and in advance to anyone else that adds more info to this.

 

I have them all of them, Romulator, AutoProm, and Prominator.

And it's just like having a complete tool box. Each has it's own strong points.

The Romulator thou, is dated, and has a few issues, ie disconnects with the later PCMs.

The AutoProm is great for ecm bench developement work, or when close and just fine tuning the last few details. But, it's meant as an emulator, so when done, I really feel best about burning a prom, and then packing it all up.

The Prominator, I can install into the ecm, and just let the cable hang down, for further accessing. So when the weather changes, and I want to change the tune for summer/winter gas, with one connection, I'm up and running.

With Autoprom you can do instant tweaks, where as with prominator you have to reload the .bin after editing. But, for me and doing notes, either will suffice.

The only gotcha in all of this is that with the Prominator, it uses some really stout legs, so you have to use a leaf type 28 pin socket, rather then the machined pin type. But this is a non issue if your using one of the Moates adapters.

If you using a C3 ecm with the 24 pin sockets, then you have to have Bill modify the ecm, to use prominator, and you can't interface the Autoprom with a C3, as far as I know.

For the mention of 7060, I haven't tried the Prominator with it, but the AutoProm was hiccup free with that PCM. Maybe if it ever thaws, I'll get the Prominator rigged in it one day.

And if you work with Source Code, then you have to reload the new .bin either way.

I think that covers all the details.
Either one has excellent support, and all the prices are reasonable. No ones getting rich off of any of this, there's been a ton of R+D by all parts concerned from what I've seen.

 

I'M kinda lost on the NON ALDL fuctionality of the Prominator?

Does that mean I can not use the ALDL for data logging anymore?
Does it data log right from the prominator?
Is it just as fast ?
Sorry If I don't quite understand.

 

The Prominator isn't an ALDL interface, it is a chip replacement. Therefore, if you install a Prominator, you just have to log data like you always would, with an ALDL cable and the appropriate software.

Preferably an ALDL cable running off your USB port

 

where can i get a USB to paralell adapter and will this work with XP?

 

Prominator is parallel only, no USB.

Yes it will work with XP.

 

now do you have to keep the ECM connected to the laptop or do you just adjust what you need, unplug, and then drive?

 

Unplug it or leave it plugged in, doesn't matter.

The only thing that could cause a problem by leaving it plugged in is if there are any programs running on the PC that might try to manipulate the parallel port.

 

ahh ok. Thank you.

 

Thank you.
But why off a USB Craig? Because its faster?
So does that mean that the prominator slows data stream?
I could not see how it does.... My think pad has no USB.

 

no, not faster. no, the prominator doesn't slow the datastream. Just more convenient

i think he's just excited about the fact the he now offers a USB ALDL interface. =)

If you ask me, it is pretty damn cool (and about time!)

If you only have serial, then you need a serial ALDL interface (or serial AutoProm).

 

The nice thing about USB interfaces is the ease of use when configuring the software. Serial is a dated technology and many new laptops do not even come with a serial interface. USB simplifies the process espically for those with newer operating systems such as XP or 2K.

I say USB all the way!

 

Thanks for clearing that up, I have serial and com just no usb.

When the autoprom was introduced I thought , it would be nice but not really needed.
Well today after running in and ut of my house and taking rides for an hour or more... I want one

Last question, Will my 120 MHZ/80MB ram win 98 thinkpad run it?

 

sure will.

 

I have been hearing you guys are making software for the prominator. I was wondering how realistic it would be with this hardware that software be written where one can literally be able to make changes and save all in one instance. For example I make a change to a certain rpm and instantaneously it will make a change in the prominator bin. Maybe an editor that would do all the leg work of saving the bin then auto flashing it to the prominator. This is strictly for the pro version since it has the on the fly capability. Im just dreaming here again but was wondering how possible it would have in future development of this project.

 

No reason it couldn't be made to work. A Prominator reflash only takes a few seconds. Just gotta watch you don't reflash it too many thousands of times! Flash memory specs are such that you get an endurance of at least 10,000 reflashes though.

 

100 is a hobby.

1000 is an addiction

10,000...seek medical attention!



Also just FYI....there is now a prominator discussion forum at http://prominator.homeip.net

I'd like to get a good database of info here, so whoever doesn't mind registering on another forum...please do!

 

Hell.. if some of you burned as many proms has you have posted, you would be the masters (or just messed up the burn WAY too many times)

 

I agree with the global sentiment that it would take a few years to burn through the 10000 cycle life limit of the flash chips, but...

I'm not sure I entirely agree with the details, especially when it comes to emulation and the "pro" version.

When I sit in the car and emulate, I may make an *uploaded* change maybe 25 times in a session. 4 emulation sessions and thats 100 reflashes (in Prominator terms). 4 emulation sessions is about right for a weekend of tuning.

Multiply that by the number of times you may change a major part or tweak your tune for the track (or a good canyon run with a buddy) and you can get to 1000 pretty easily.

So, I'd alter it to:

100 is a weekend or two
1000 is a serious hobbyist over a year
10000 is still insane.

 

There is a Flash part that I believe is compatible that's good for 100,000 writes and data retention is guaranteed for 100 years. I don't use it cause it's more expensive, and the majority of users just don't need it.

But...it means that even the really insane are covered.

 

OK this is my opinion about PROMinator vs. AutoProm.

- Are you new in the DIY PROM? -->; Go for the PROMinator.
- Do you have some experience with tuning your EPROM? (1 year at least) -->; Go for AutoProm.

So far what I know:
The PROMinator will be connected to the Laptop via a Parallel Cable to load only the BIN files that you have tuned and the Datalog happens via the Serial port and both cables can be hock-up at the same time.

If you don’t have a Serial port like me, Craig Moates has just made a new device USB to ALDL (ALDLU1) that together with a (CABL1) OBD1 to ALDL cable connector will hock up your laptop for Dataloging.

I have ordered one of this baby’s because I am tired of buying USB to serial connectors, as sun as I get it I will report my experiences.

One other possibility that was not mention about the PROMinator is that you are able to switch between the BIN files during driving, but if you want to load a new one you need to stop the car.
This will be insane, “Drive the car and load with the laptop a new BIN” even if it takes a couple of seconds.
Cobra289

 

Ok in the near future I am going to buy a Prominator, Was going to buy one next week but I have a few things I need to do to the car first like Change my 870' To a 165' plus add a head mounted thermostat fan switch. So the car actually hits closed Loop. BUT since I am waiting awhile I am wondering I there is a chance that the PROMinator will Offer USB. I have one lap top I own and another one I can Borrow but neither of them have a Parallel port.

 

That only applies to the Standard version. With the Pro version, you can load a new bin any time you want to, be it stopped with engine off or at 200MPH...just PLEASE have a buddy if you're re-flashing while driving!

No USB for Prominator. Sorry.

 

Since there is a reference to me (dummy) in the title, and am using an Autoprom, I figured this would be a good place to ask this question.

I'm using TunerCat RT with the AutoProm. I pull up a bin file and make changes and save the file to a new name. With the file open, when I initialize "Program Romulator", is it burning the bin file to the chip in the AutoProm? If so, how do I verify?

BTW, I am trying this with the AutoProm not being attached to the 7060.

 

Which one (Prominator, Auto) works best with an 870' ECM in an '85 Iroc?

 

Since I have had it done to me a thousand times I want to be the first to do it here

GET rid of the 870' and get a 165'

Depends on you going to be using it for and and Knowledge.
from what I can see.