I just finished putting my car back together from my clutch install, i bought spec stage one clutch kit, install took a few days i also did a tune up.
Anyway, the car runs great, but i cant put the tranny in gear when the car is running only when it is off. what might this mean?

When the car is off i can easily put the car in gear with the peadal down, just not at idle.

Flywheel was machined, disc was installed useing alignment tool, the trany was bolted to the motor after getting all the way flush, i did kick it flush though it was very hard to do.

Only other thing that is different from before the install is the new crossmember from an automatic 6 cylinder camaro,it seems like the tranny is a little higher could this be my problem?

 

I haven't posted my famous pic in a while; so here's a fresh copy.

Which way did you put your throwout bearing on the fork? Like the top pic, or the bottom one?

If it's like the top one, then that's why your clutch doesn't work.

 

im gonna go play in traffic now...

i saw you famous picture, yes it is very famous, i didnt read to hard... i did recreate the first pic and now im gonna explode cause i didnt read close enough, only reason im mad is cause it took all day to get the tranny off and another day to get it back on, what a pain...
oh well at least i know how to fix it, thanks guy your post helped me get this far cause i had many other problems over the past few days and searching saved my butt...

ill check back after i re-assemble it.

 

Bummer.

Well that would do it, I'd be inclined to think it will work great when you get that handled.

 

up top i typed about a new crossmember, i made another post but no one responded, any one know any thing?

 

The crossmember will have nothing whatsoever to do with clutch engagement. Might either cause or cure a vibe problem, if it has any effect at all; that's about it.

 

thats what i gots on now, by looking at you picture this looks to be right, hope it works, what else can cause my t5 to not go in to gear if this donts work

aslo whats the hump thing do, does it have a place to go?


also this is the presure plate so if anything is wrong in this pic let me know.


thanks for any help

 

Your pilot bushing doesn't look too exciting..... looks very thin. Here's a bearing, same dimensions, should give you some idea of how much material is worn out of yours.

Other than that, your pic looks fine.

The "hump" in the TOB doesn't really go anywhere in particular; it just kind of gets stuck on the fork, and keeps the TOB from spinning on the fork.

 

on the pilot bushing, it is new, also my brother said it fit snug on the end of the shaft.

when the tranny is in does the shaft stay in the pilot bushing all the time to keep it lined up? i dont think i could have messed up the new bushing yet, i poped the old one out with the grease trick and tapped the new one in with a large socket and a hammer. i got it to where the old one was and quit.

right now im waiting for another person so i can have a little help with the heavy part, i have been useing a jack to hold the tranny up off the clutch disc and other parts so i hope this is the end and it works today.

 

A jack?

I usually just lay (or stand, if I'm lucky .... which is not bloody often) under there and stab a T-5 in by hand, then hold it up with one hand while I start a couple of bolts with the other. IMHO a jack makes it harder and take longer.

 

You should also grease the inside of the bearing, and the fork groove in it, as well as the ballstud the fork rides on.

Your release problem: probably need to bleed the hydraulics.

 

am i suposed to bleed the system when changing my clutch or and hydro clutch set up?

Because i put it all together and it still does the same thing...

The fork move about 20mm when i push the pedaland my brother thinks thats not far enough

i did take that cylinder of the bellhousing and these two plastic staps that once held on a plastic cup for the rod that pushes the fork fell off letting the rod extend fully, i wasnt worry and dont understand how i should need to bleed if now fluid escaped.

side note - my clutch kit is a spec stage one sc191 i called spec they said it work, there for i bought it, but the presure plate is bigger around than my fly wheel but still bolted on fine any problems there?

 

what's the clutch for? the fingers dont' look like a V8 10.5" pp.

 

specs site says its for 82 to 92 camaro with 5.0 or 5.7

 

I spent the evening bleeding the hydro system from the allen key bleeder on the push rod cylinder that is attached to the bellhousing. I took it off the bell houseing and pushed the rod in and opened the valve and closed it before releasing the pushrod, this looked like it was helping but i noticed no change in any thing.
The pedal still feels light and squishy and i cant go in to gear at idle. can still shift in to gear when the car is off.

Whats left to check or recheck? Did i even bleed it right? The pedal feels different than before i started the new clutch install, but feels the same as it did before i bled the system.

is the 84 t5 set up different than say 85 and up or are they all the same except for the mechanical set ups from 82 or so?

edit - just wondering saw it in another post, could my clutch disc be on the wrong way? or does that matter

 

When you beed it, you need to leave the slave cylinder bolted up to the bellhousing and the rod attached.

Ideally, you want one person working the pedal, and another person under the car working the bleeder screw. Pump the pedal a few times then hold it down, crack the bleeder open then closed, repeat until all the air is gone.

If you're lacking the second person, you can simply "gravity bleed" it - open the bleeder and let the fluid run. Close the bleeder once or twice during this operation and give the pedal a couple of pumps to help dislodge any trapped air bubbles, and then open the bleeder again.

Be sure not to let the reservoir run dry or you'll have to start all over.

-Bob

 

THey rarely need bleeding, unless the hydraulics were disassembled. Most likely that's not the problem. I can't recall a single instance posted on this board, out of all the times people have tried it, that it ever fixed any clutch disengagement problem at all. In the entire life of my car, which includes about 300,000 miles since I swapped in the hydraulic system to replace the mechanical linkage re-using the same clutch that was in it, BTW) and 5 or 6 clutch replacements and probably 20 to 25 engine or transmission R&Rs, I've had to bleed mine exactly once..... which was when I swapped the slave cylinder by itself. And it bled quite easily, didn't take 5 minutes IIRC.

Yes the disc abslutely has to go in the right way. There is a definite right way and wrong way. THey are nearly always marked somehow: a stamp, a label, something. On most discs of stock-type design, the hub and springs face away from the engine, and the flat side goes toward the engine. Unfortunately if it's been put in the wrong way, it's probably destroyed (turned into a saucer shape instead of flat). I've never seen that kind of disc so I can't tell you whichi side is which.

Slave cylinder travel spec is about 5/8", which is around 16mm. Sounds to me like yours is fine. I'd leave the hydraulics alone and look for mis-assembly.

 

things i have thought about,


I can tell the clutch disc is in right from the pictures i took i can see the springs of the disc through the presure plate. We just put it up there with the alignment tool and bolted down the presure plate, and that was that tq spec was like 55lbs if i remember correctly.

The throwout bearing is on the way you said in the picture.

the pressure plate it bigger around than the fly wheel, where as the one i took off was not, could i have the wrong one, there for it wont fully disengauge when the pedal is pushed?

pilot bushing fits snug on the end of the shaft and is new and it was aligned fine or well enough that the tranny could go back on.

the only thing i ever greased was the input shaft all the way to the tranny.

later im gonna check the disc, im tired of this crap, its my only car. blarg!

 

True enough, but when you consider what has already been done in terms of bleeding, I believe that doing it properly at this point is not only a good idea, but also necessary. At any rate, I certainly wouldn't rule it out.

A good argument for just doing it anyway so that it can be ruled out

-Bob

 

Can you post the brand of clutch and the part numbers you used?

-Bob

 

i did, but here it is again

i did call spec they said its fine, and on their web site it also says it will work, but i ordered from thunder racing, and on their site it says 85 to 92 instead of 82 to 92 like spec says, anyway way back when i got this stuff I made sure it was the same part numbers as spec had and then ordered it, it came strait from spec too. this is gonna fry me the wrong way if its wrong parts.

spec page

thunder racing clutch page

 

83-92 is all the same clutch; maybe 82 as well. I can tell you just FYI, I have a 83 car, which came with clutch linkage instead of hydraulics; with the same clutch still on it, I put a 84 bell housing and hydraulics on it; I've gone through countless T-5s of various years over the life of this car; I have a 91 BH, which is identical to the 84; I have a 91 flywheel, which is the same as the 84 except for the crank flange bolt pattern, but it's the same thickness and all that; the last T-5 that was in the car was a 91. At various times I've gone to the dealer and tried to get the hydraulics; once I got the 84 hydraulics and they worked fine; another time I tried to get those, they were out of stock; so I tried for 92, and the number they showed for that year was out of stock too; so I started having them go through the listings year by year, and when I got to about 87 or 88, they had that one in stock so I bought it. If 87 or 88 hydraulics fit a 84 BH with a 83-92 clutch in a 83 car with a 91 trans, I can't feature what could possibly be different about them over the years; maybe the shape the line is pre-formed into. That 87 assembly has been in my 83 car since about 1998, up until a few weeks ago when I swapped in a T-56.

All that stuff from all those years, no matter which ones I've ever used, fits and bolts up the same, and mixes and matches with no incompatibility that I've ever been able to detect. Therefore I can safely conclude that year model doesn't matter, for any of those parts: hydraulics, flywheels, bell housings, transmissions, or clutch.

I would not worry about the OD of the clutch. If it bolts up to the flywheel, it's correct, as far as size goes. A little metal hanging over the edge of the flywheel doesn't matter.

I still think it's an assembly problem, or a damaged part from a prior incorrect assembly. Take your car apart and lay all the parts out carefully, and inspect them, especially the disc for being warped into a saucer instead of a flat surface. Look for any signs that anything has been hitting anything else such as the clutch disc hub against flywheel bolts; etc. etc.

 

You did, sorry.

After re-reading the entire thread, I'm not too sure what else could be going on here. The information posted above re slave cylinder travel is correct - if you're getting 20mm travel, that's more than enough to fully disengage the clutch.

With the clutch fully assembled and the transmission and slave cylinder in place, is there any front-to-back play whatsoever in the clutch fork? Have you verified that the ball stud is screwed in all the way/hasn't backed out?

If everything still checks out, (and you have verified that everything is assembled correctlyas mentioned above), it could be entirely possible that you were given either bad or incorrect/mis-boxed parts.

-Bob

 

pretty sure there is no play because i couldnt move the tob when i had the hydro stuff all hooked up. i had to take the slave off the bell housing to move the clutch fork.

ball stud? what would that be, the pivot point of the fork? if so ill be looking at it in the next few minutes, i didnt touch it and im sure my brother didnt touch it but that means nothing till i look at it.

 

just thought to ask

can some one show me a pic of where the fork is suposed to be?
i just want something to go off off when i look at mine

 

The mushroom shaped tip of the ballstud is against the backside of the fork. The 2 clip fingers are underneath the tip of the stud. There's not much way to screw it up.

 

nono
i mean i think the fork it self has slid out of the bell housing some, i dont know how but it looks like it. i called spec and he told me when i asked, that the tips of the fork should go all the way to the other side of the t.o.b. and mine dont even go half way around it.
if this is good info i think im gonna go out and undo the slave and hit the fork in toward the t.o.b. and the try this crap again.

im gonna inspect my master cylinder, its original, maybe its not up to par on drepressing the spec pressure plate?

sorry if it seems like im beating the bush, but i cant take the thing apart to check the disc until thur or friday and im going nuts. franky if i dont have to take it apart ill jump for joy!

 

There's an indent in the fork where the ballstud rides, and this "indexes" the fork. It won't really slide out unless the clip is junk.

The two tips of the fork are supposed to ride in the fork groove, and be 180 degrees apart like 12:00 and 6:00. (in the case of third gen, more like 11:15 and 5:45 but you get my drift.) If they're far off of that, might you have a mechanical fork w/ hydraulic bellhousing? I don't know if the V6 forks differ from the V8 forks.

Calm down.

 

OK...since this has yet to be asked......

Since it runs great, I assume you can come to a stop without killing the engine when in gear. How does it shift, easy or hard?

Tom

 

sorry if i confused any one with my words

the car runs great, on the drive way, not moving, i can start it and push down the pedal and it wont let it go into gear, meaning from what i have learned so far that the pressure plate isnt getting squished far enough to let the disc spin?

as of right now im holding three options,

master cylinder is not working to full normal potential and not pushing the pressure plate all the way down, and or the system has air in it.

the disc is bent and there for never able to disengauge.

the fork is not in far enough, this one is iffy. i doubt it is the case but if it is itll be easy as crap to fix!

thats my thought as of now
after my semi vacation with my girlfriend tue wed and thursday morning im going right back under the car.

thanks every one for giving me things to check guys like me need a board like this for problems like this, glad its here.

 

I feel your pain, Man...I am going thorugh the exact same issue with my brand new clutch. Clutch disk will not spin with pedal depressed.

I am out of ideas and it looks like you have checked the same items as I have...I'd go with the slave cylinder actuator throw not being long enough to disengage the clutch. How to fix it, I am clueless.

 

today im going back out to fiddle with it so ill post what i find out

 

the rod nor the hydraulics have anything to do with it, the setup is defective or mis installed, put the car in gear with it off and try to turn it over, does the car try to move? if so the disc is definately in backwards and you can now buy a new clutch, when you were using a jack to hold the transmission did you bend the clutch disc? i think it was a bad install and now you must start over and do it correctly, the transmission must go all the way in straight and be bolted, not left hanging or jiggling it in.

no offense intended, i've been there and done the same, then i bought a centerforce d/f with the stock flywheel turned, and had nothing but GOOD luck and feel

 

actually they do have something to do with it, the clutch master cylinder if it is not functioning to its full normal potential wont be able to push the pressure plate down all the way, as according to spec, they told me the stage one plate was made to work with a good master cylinder not an sub par one.

but yeah im thinking the disc is bent or backwards, if so i just have to send it back to spec and get the to replace the center section. and wait more than i have.

 

I wouldn't bet my money on the disc being the problem. I have a Centerforce DF and have the same problem, but have also triple checked all components for correct installation...It is almost impossible to install the disc backwards...at least on the Centerforce...

The statment about the hydraulics needing to be up to the task is right on...question is, who makes a better slave cylinder?

 

about the better cylinder autozone carries a new unit that is all aluminum, spec said you dont need a better one just a stock one that isnt crappy or old and worn out.

i have got pics now, the first is this the fork... it wasnt on its little pivot ball, off by about .25"

here is the disc from the side

and from the other side

only unusual wear marks anywhere

pressure plate looks fine too


all pics here, clutch install page

im out of ideas, the only thing i have to do now is put the fork back together the right way and check the master cylinder which i cant figure out how, i dont see any fluid comeing out anywhere.

Is the forks placement that big of a deal?

 

The placement of the fork on the pivot ball is DEFINITELY important. With it off in the direction you had it off, you had more mechanical advantage on it than you were supposed to; so it was easier to push, but moved less.

The spring clip thing is there to hold it in the right spot. It's supposed to retain it. Having it like that any have bent it up, and now it has no tension, so it won't really try as hard as it should to stay where it belongs. Might be new fork time.

When you put it back together, make an effort to be sure it's cliped on the way it's supposed to go.

I assume you wiped off all your new grease that you put on that pivot, before you took the pic.

It's impossible to tell in the pics whether the disc is flat. But, if it had ever been put in upside down, it probably would have left a mark on the damper springs; they would have got smashed up against the flywheel on the side that's "up" in your 3rd pic. That generally leaves telltale signs.

Don't blame the hydraulics when you can see so obviously that something was assembled incorrectly. I'd be willing to bet that if they worked right before, they'll work just fine now, once whatever else is wrong gets fixed.

 

where can i get a new fork? can i fix my fork(that clip)?
i did wipe off the pivot ball before the photo, i didnt have the disc on backwards,

so if the fork goes on right it should fully dissengauge, there by letting me drive out of the driveway and out to have some fun....

 

that would for sure explain why the pedal was easier to push

 

it works now guys and thank goodness
it was the fork the whole time, i modified it with a nut and bolt to keep the pivot ball from being able to slide up that far.


drives nice the engauge point is to the floor a little bit more than before nothing bad, and reverse is harder to get into, so far no problems with the new crossmember... thanks guys!

 

Glad to see you got it going!!! Success stories are always good.

It's amazing sometimes how a little detail can cause such grief.