89 gta 5.7, runs too rich, won't rev, stalls instead
09-09-2015, 11:32 AM
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89 gta 5.7, runs too rich, won't rev, stalls instead
Thanks for you help in advance...
Any ideas what you might start testing first?
New parts: new ECM and new factory settings chip, no VATS security issues, ignition control module, distrib pickup, wires, cap, plugs, bosch southbay refurb injectors, air filter, fuel filter, fuel pump (clean tank too), cleaned fuel lines, but now its been a couple months with seafoam though, added a couple gallons of new 93 fuel
never tested the egr valve, which was disconnected when I got it and drove the car for three years that way...never looked. I reconnected it and replaced all the vacuum lines too. I hooked it up according to the many photos from here and checking with a 1988 manual.
Disconnected that brown/black wire connector on passenger side
to set the timing
Got it at 6 degrees, although occasionally rough and bounces to 8
Sounds decent, seems ok for a bit, no weird noises or anything
If you try to rev it, it goes up some and dies off...
If you reconnect that brown and black wire, it runs terribly, if at all, and doesn't stay running.
Running it for several minutes and it goes to 200 quickly,
shut it off before reaching 220... ex manifolds were glowing
fans did not kick on as they used to
Not sure where to start checking... I don't have an ODB diag tool
Fuel Circuit:
where that round plastic **** has the big positive battery wire to starter (I think) and a smaller wire coming out to a connector,
I found the wire flaky, cut it off and soldered, thought I repaired it, nope... anyway, if you let it sit in the right position, it seems ok (or is that the problem? can't pass enough current to keep up with fuel demands?)
there was also non-factory fuse holder corroded, replaced that and soldered back to the wire near the nub- seemed clean enough,
noticed that wiggling it cause the fuel pump to not prime (from jamming my hand down in for cyl 1 to remove plug and shove a rubber plug to find TDC, the fuel priming disappeared and reappeared from wiggling it)
Did I put the injector wires on the wrong ones? How do you tell? I didn't label them, went by where the wires naturally sat ...what else? seems like it wouldn't run like it does if they were wrong
Any ideas what you might start testing first?
O2 sensor shot?
hand feel at the exhaust seems even, hot, and very fuel smelly, black
plug 1 is now very black, hasn't even run 20 minutes since new
Also, I think I'm off a tooth on the distrib gear,
To get it to 6 degress, the cap/distrib is turned around counter clockwise as far as it will turn.
Can't I just pull of the wires and rotate to the next hole to provide more adjustment past 6? should be no difference, right? getting the oil pump thing to line up is a bit of a pain... had it out at least a dozen times and still not right...damn
On the fuel circuit wire issue:
Obviously must fix that, but how? Dealer part to get a nice new wire with those "fusible links" or third party replacement?
Can't I just cut out the rubber nub and solder it all back together, if there's enough wire length to do so? Seems like that might be ok with some shrink tube after and then wrapped in electrical tape...
money is getting tight...already dumped $1200 in parts and uncounted hours ... frustration is mounting
and now the cooling fans don't come on:
damn, I replaced that sensor on passenger side, it is grounded to the block even though I put some teflon on it.
I had already cleaned all the grounds on the fan circuitry I noticed and didn't expect a fan problem. The fan failure caused the head gasket problem, and had that fixed at a garage where they wired up both to run whenever one runs, so that secondary switch might not be even doing anything anyway, but it worked before I started.
All this after the last time I was about to set the timing...starter went, replaced that, but not before slipping off a jack (bump in driveway wouldn't let it roll, harbor freight jack doesn't have as big a lip as the leaking W&S jack).. mashed the center link into the pan...
Just got done replacing the center link and oil pan, crank was fine.
oh what fun that was.
Thanks for any help or ideas... exasperated...
Any ideas what you might start testing first?
New parts: new ECM and new factory settings chip, no VATS security issues, ignition control module, distrib pickup, wires, cap, plugs, bosch southbay refurb injectors, air filter, fuel filter, fuel pump (clean tank too), cleaned fuel lines, but now its been a couple months with seafoam though, added a couple gallons of new 93 fuel
never tested the egr valve, which was disconnected when I got it and drove the car for three years that way...never looked. I reconnected it and replaced all the vacuum lines too. I hooked it up according to the many photos from here and checking with a 1988 manual.
Disconnected that brown/black wire connector on passenger side
to set the timing
Got it at 6 degrees, although occasionally rough and bounces to 8
Sounds decent, seems ok for a bit, no weird noises or anything
If you try to rev it, it goes up some and dies off...
If you reconnect that brown and black wire, it runs terribly, if at all, and doesn't stay running.
Running it for several minutes and it goes to 200 quickly,
shut it off before reaching 220... ex manifolds were glowing
fans did not kick on as they used to
Not sure where to start checking... I don't have an ODB diag tool
Fuel Circuit:
where that round plastic **** has the big positive battery wire to starter (I think) and a smaller wire coming out to a connector,
I found the wire flaky, cut it off and soldered, thought I repaired it, nope... anyway, if you let it sit in the right position, it seems ok (or is that the problem? can't pass enough current to keep up with fuel demands?)
there was also non-factory fuse holder corroded, replaced that and soldered back to the wire near the nub- seemed clean enough,
noticed that wiggling it cause the fuel pump to not prime (from jamming my hand down in for cyl 1 to remove plug and shove a rubber plug to find TDC, the fuel priming disappeared and reappeared from wiggling it)
Did I put the injector wires on the wrong ones? How do you tell? I didn't label them, went by where the wires naturally sat ...what else? seems like it wouldn't run like it does if they were wrong
Any ideas what you might start testing first?
O2 sensor shot?
hand feel at the exhaust seems even, hot, and very fuel smelly, black
plug 1 is now very black, hasn't even run 20 minutes since new
Also, I think I'm off a tooth on the distrib gear,
To get it to 6 degress, the cap/distrib is turned around counter clockwise as far as it will turn.
Can't I just pull of the wires and rotate to the next hole to provide more adjustment past 6? should be no difference, right? getting the oil pump thing to line up is a bit of a pain... had it out at least a dozen times and still not right...damn
On the fuel circuit wire issue:
Obviously must fix that, but how? Dealer part to get a nice new wire with those "fusible links" or third party replacement?
Can't I just cut out the rubber nub and solder it all back together, if there's enough wire length to do so? Seems like that might be ok with some shrink tube after and then wrapped in electrical tape...
money is getting tight...already dumped $1200 in parts and uncounted hours ... frustration is mounting
and now the cooling fans don't come on:
damn, I replaced that sensor on passenger side, it is grounded to the block even though I put some teflon on it.
I had already cleaned all the grounds on the fan circuitry I noticed and didn't expect a fan problem. The fan failure caused the head gasket problem, and had that fixed at a garage where they wired up both to run whenever one runs, so that secondary switch might not be even doing anything anyway, but it worked before I started.
All this after the last time I was about to set the timing...starter went, replaced that, but not before slipping off a jack (bump in driveway wouldn't let it roll, harbor freight jack doesn't have as big a lip as the leaking W&S jack).. mashed the center link into the pan...
Just got done replacing the center link and oil pan, crank was fine.
oh what fun that was.
Thanks for any help or ideas... exasperated...
09-09-2015, 12:43 PM
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Car: '91 Firebird Formula
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Transmission: Tremec T56
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Re: 89 gta 5.7, runs too rich, won't rev, stalls instead
Holy Molly!!!
So you have a 350 L98 TPI with 7165 ECM with MAF and automatic tranny I assume?
You need to take a break or you will go crazy
You're all over the place. No mean to be rude just concern about your well being. TPI trouble shooting can be very frustrating, costly and nerve racking if you approach it with trial and error changing parts.
I suggest you check the basics like fuel pressure, vacuum and voltage (need gauges). Have you mixed up the firing order and timing? Also if you could monitor the ECM and sensors with a software like Datamaster that would help you see what's going on.
Best of luck!
So you have a 350 L98 TPI with 7165 ECM with MAF and automatic tranny I assume?
You need to take a break or you will go crazy
You're all over the place. No mean to be rude just concern about your well being. TPI trouble shooting can be very frustrating, costly and nerve racking if you approach it with trial and error changing parts.I suggest you check the basics like fuel pressure, vacuum and voltage (need gauges). Have you mixed up the firing order and timing? Also if you could monitor the ECM and sensors with a software like Datamaster that would help you see what's going on.
Best of luck!
Last edited by SbFormula; 09-09-2015 at 12:55 PM.
09-10-2015, 05:40 PM
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Re: 89 gta 5.7, runs too rich, won't rev, stalls instead
Thanks. No doubt.
Today I repaired the power wire from the alternator with the fusible link and two smaller wires coming out of the black nub. Clean 10 gauge wire, silver soldered the other two circuits (fuel and I don't know what)... to be clamped into a gold plated 200amp fuse (amazon part $12 to arrive tomorrow). Better than no fuse, wasn't sure if 100amp would be enough, although probably, I guess. That should semi-permanently end the fuel pump circuit problem, I expect.
Only ODB code was 42... EST disconnected. I forgot you can just count the blinks.
I do hear what sounds like an electric motor somewhere in the engine compartment when you turn on the key, and its not the fuel pump I'm hearing... is that the IAC doing something like being stuck? (not the electric antenna, that's disconnected)
I work on it when in the right frame of mind, then something pisses me off (every basic task on this car seems to have it's own special little surprise), so I stop for a while.
Been doing that for three years now...
It sat for nearly ten as I avoided doing the head gasket job. *during that, a bolt broke off flush in the block next to the firewall...it sat for a year after that (I greased the cylinders and taped it up with plastic bags...didn't finish that until 2014, made a wooden jig for a drill and used ablue point remover ...and it worked)
Really, the only thing hooked up differently than before was reconnecting the egr.
I suppose sitting ten years must have screwed up one or more sensors.
Any clue as to which one you'd check first? Seems like IAC might be next, as the car won't run long if you step on the gas... it bogs down and dies right quick, although it will idle no problem and let you rev it up to maybe 2000 - that's where I set it to 6 degrees with my cousins foot on the pedal
Maybe it wasn't hot enough to kick on the fans... I couldn't recall what temp it comes on... saw on here 222, 220, 235... should have tried the AC, that used to work, should at least kick on the fan? (fans wired together by a garage that ran a new set of wires and a new relay (ten years ago)...but I did have all that apart and cleaned grounds when the radiator was out...
Thanks for looking...
Today I repaired the power wire from the alternator with the fusible link and two smaller wires coming out of the black nub. Clean 10 gauge wire, silver soldered the other two circuits (fuel and I don't know what)... to be clamped into a gold plated 200amp fuse (amazon part $12 to arrive tomorrow). Better than no fuse, wasn't sure if 100amp would be enough, although probably, I guess. That should semi-permanently end the fuel pump circuit problem, I expect.
Only ODB code was 42... EST disconnected. I forgot you can just count the blinks.
I do hear what sounds like an electric motor somewhere in the engine compartment when you turn on the key, and its not the fuel pump I'm hearing... is that the IAC doing something like being stuck? (not the electric antenna, that's disconnected)
I work on it when in the right frame of mind, then something pisses me off (every basic task on this car seems to have it's own special little surprise), so I stop for a while.
Been doing that for three years now...
It sat for nearly ten as I avoided doing the head gasket job. *during that, a bolt broke off flush in the block next to the firewall...it sat for a year after that (I greased the cylinders and taped it up with plastic bags...didn't finish that until 2014, made a wooden jig for a drill and used ablue point remover ...and it worked)
Really, the only thing hooked up differently than before was reconnecting the egr.
I suppose sitting ten years must have screwed up one or more sensors.
Any clue as to which one you'd check first? Seems like IAC might be next, as the car won't run long if you step on the gas... it bogs down and dies right quick, although it will idle no problem and let you rev it up to maybe 2000 - that's where I set it to 6 degrees with my cousins foot on the pedal
Maybe it wasn't hot enough to kick on the fans... I couldn't recall what temp it comes on... saw on here 222, 220, 235... should have tried the AC, that used to work, should at least kick on the fan? (fans wired together by a garage that ran a new set of wires and a new relay (ten years ago)...but I did have all that apart and cleaned grounds when the radiator was out...
Thanks for looking...
09-10-2015, 05:56 PM
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Re: 89 gta 5.7, runs too rich, won't rev, stalls instead
(every basic task on this car seems to have it's own special little surprise)
Oh yeah!!! I call them hybrid because old school mechanic but EFI on top of it. Furthermore they are old and were not meant to last that long. But we love them so much!
Really, the only thing hooked up differently than before was reconnecting the egr.
It's worth unplugging it but make sure you cap the vacuum hose.
I suppose sitting ten years must have screwed up one or more sensors.
Not necessarily. They are pretty basic. You need to monitor with software to see what they are doing and reading. That's the not old school part.
Any clue as to which one you'd check first? Seems like IAC might be next,
Again a software to monitor. You would not believe what you could solve with it. You could remove, check and clean the IAC and observed if it's working.
Oh yeah!!! I call them hybrid because old school mechanic but EFI on top of it. Furthermore they are old and were not meant to last that long. But we love them so much!
Really, the only thing hooked up differently than before was reconnecting the egr.
It's worth unplugging it but make sure you cap the vacuum hose.
I suppose sitting ten years must have screwed up one or more sensors.
Not necessarily. They are pretty basic. You need to monitor with software to see what they are doing and reading. That's the not old school part.
Any clue as to which one you'd check first? Seems like IAC might be next,
Again a software to monitor. You would not believe what you could solve with it. You could remove, check and clean the IAC and observed if it's working.
09-11-2015, 10:52 AM
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Re: 89 gta 5.7, runs too rich, won't rev, stalls instead
Thanks for the response.
which software do you recommend? Is there any open-source free stuff that will do the job? Which cable? Are there some sort of connectors that go between the sensors and the ECM? rephrased: any way I can get software and make a cable and be able to do this without spending hundreds more?
which software do you recommend? Is there any open-source free stuff that will do the job? Which cable? Are there some sort of connectors that go between the sensors and the ECM? rephrased: any way I can get software and make a cable and be able to do this without spending hundreds more?
09-11-2015, 12:55 PM
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Re: 89 gta 5.7, runs too rich, won't rev, stalls instead
update:
after fixing the main charge wire that has the fuel circuit and something else... I noticed, the cleaned ground I did months ago didn't look so clean
so I cut that wire back too, soldered on an extension, cleaned the hell out of the metal next to radiator, cleaned the sheet metal screw on wire wheel bench grinder, used a crimp connector on the wire, and caulked it with 30 year caulk, wrapped with tape, screwed it in, then caulked all around it on both sides, wrapped in electrical tape...
connected the EST, why not, should be at 6 already
fire it up and voila... revs wherever and sounds strong, still a bit rough at idle which seems low - it drops to like 750, even 500
still no fan at 220... that's next
also noticed my tranny oil line to rad is leaking
and must have forgotten an exhaust pipe hangar, as it was sitting low and nearly caught a piece of cardboard on fire
but whatever...whoo hoo! hearing it makes me like it again
after fixing the main charge wire that has the fuel circuit and something else... I noticed, the cleaned ground I did months ago didn't look so clean
so I cut that wire back too, soldered on an extension, cleaned the hell out of the metal next to radiator, cleaned the sheet metal screw on wire wheel bench grinder, used a crimp connector on the wire, and caulked it with 30 year caulk, wrapped with tape, screwed it in, then caulked all around it on both sides, wrapped in electrical tape...
connected the EST, why not, should be at 6 already
fire it up and voila... revs wherever and sounds strong, still a bit rough at idle which seems low - it drops to like 750, even 500
still no fan at 220... that's next
also noticed my tranny oil line to rad is leaking
and must have forgotten an exhaust pipe hangar, as it was sitting low and nearly caught a piece of cardboard on fire
but whatever...whoo hoo! hearing it makes me like it again
09-11-2015, 04:53 PM
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Re: 89 gta 5.7, runs too rich, won't rev, stalls instead
Bad ground... That's it? Awesome
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09-11-2015, 04:56 PM
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Re: 89 gta 5.7, runs too rich, won't rev, stalls instead
Thanks for the response.
which software do you recommend? Is there any open-source free stuff that will do the job? Which cable? Are there some sort of connectors that go between the sensors and the ECM? rephrased: any way I can get software and make a cable and be able to do this without spending hundreds more?
which software do you recommend? Is there any open-source free stuff that will do the job? Which cable? Are there some sort of connectors that go between the sensors and the ECM? rephrased: any way I can get software and make a cable and be able to do this without spending hundreds more?
Well you need an ALDL cable like this http://www.aldlcable.com/, a laptop and you could get a free version of DataMaster for trial. There are others out there with free trial versions. With DataMaster, you have up to 20 data logging trials. Not sure if that includes monitoring. http://www.ttspowersystems.com/DataMaster.html
09-11-2015, 11:18 PM
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Re: 89 gta 5.7, runs too rich, won't rev, stalls instead
yes, bad ground, must have messed up all the sensor signals, I assume
- runs totally different now, feels like it has lots of power
was a bit weird though...around 2500 as I was waiting for it to warm up for the fan to turn on, occasionally it seemed like the computer must have been adjusting something, as it would seem extra smooth and zip higher without moving the gas pedal
even the oil pressure gauge showed higher...ha...it isn't like my 1983 c20 oil pressure that is barely 15psi at idle, it's over 30psi at idle and goes past 50 when I rev it. I wonder if that gauge is accurate.
it did light up the service engine soon light after a while though
will check the code with the A to B jumper blink codes first and order that cable
I think I'll trace the fan before running it again though, I can't imagine how I'd feel if I blew the head gasket again due to a bad fan ground or whatever it is this time
- runs totally different now, feels like it has lots of power
was a bit weird though...around 2500 as I was waiting for it to warm up for the fan to turn on, occasionally it seemed like the computer must have been adjusting something, as it would seem extra smooth and zip higher without moving the gas pedal
even the oil pressure gauge showed higher...ha...it isn't like my 1983 c20 oil pressure that is barely 15psi at idle, it's over 30psi at idle and goes past 50 when I rev it. I wonder if that gauge is accurate.
it did light up the service engine soon light after a while though
will check the code with the A to B jumper blink codes first and order that cable
I think I'll trace the fan before running it again though, I can't imagine how I'd feel if I blew the head gasket again due to a bad fan ground or whatever it is this time
10-03-2015, 11:45 PM
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Re: 89 gta 5.7, runs too rich, won't rev, stalls instead
all right now... well, close enough.
what is next:? check engine light: oh fun... change that ...threads ****ed with 3/4 drive removal...remove ****in mANIFOLD...NO ROOM OTHERWISE... THEN THE THREADS?...WTF...AND THEN THE BOSCH O2 SENSOR IS BIGGER? WTF?
TOOK ME AN HOUR OF DUMB IRRITATION...TO REALIZE IF i CLIP AN INCH OFF THE HEAT SHIELD, IT WILL NOW FIT WITH THE BOSCH O2 SENSOR...INSTEAD OF THE AC/DELCO O2 SENSOR... **** ME...
RUNS MUCH BETTER NOW THOUGH...
WHO SAYS BOSCH O2 SENSOR IS NO GOOD? IT IS GREAT!!!!
what is next:? check engine light: oh fun... change that ...threads ****ed with 3/4 drive removal...remove ****in mANIFOLD...NO ROOM OTHERWISE... THEN THE THREADS?...WTF...AND THEN THE BOSCH O2 SENSOR IS BIGGER? WTF?
TOOK ME AN HOUR OF DUMB IRRITATION...TO REALIZE IF i CLIP AN INCH OFF THE HEAT SHIELD, IT WILL NOW FIT WITH THE BOSCH O2 SENSOR...INSTEAD OF THE AC/DELCO O2 SENSOR... **** ME...
RUNS MUCH BETTER NOW THOUGH...
WHO SAYS BOSCH O2 SENSOR IS NO GOOD? IT IS GREAT!!!!
10-03-2015, 11:52 PM
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Re: 89 gta 5.7, runs too rich, won't rev, stalls instead
AND WHILE YOU ARE FILTERING...
the big change that did it? what was it? mostly bad ground, but also I changed "NOTHING"... how about that? some two shitty grounds up front...the back ones by the engine and firewall looked good... the front two sucked, looked ok... but no cross beam on the struts... and ... all the front shake shook the **** out of everything, in front of the radiator...cracks on the cross piece on both sides... dude, was that all that was doing
"hold it steady" ????
I will rip off the nose, and notice the bracket in front of radiator broken off...
looks like it wiggled off the sheet metal...
and caused the cracks in the cross member...
wtf? makes me want to dis assemble front nose altogether....
anybody? wtf? I drove it like this for like 50k highway... though...
ain't selling to some idiot... must know wtf!!!!
the big change that did it? what was it? mostly bad ground, but also I changed "NOTHING"... how about that? some two shitty grounds up front...the back ones by the engine and firewall looked good... the front two sucked, looked ok... but no cross beam on the struts... and ... all the front shake shook the **** out of everything, in front of the radiator...cracks on the cross piece on both sides... dude, was that all that was doing
"hold it steady" ????
I will rip off the nose, and notice the bracket in front of radiator broken off...
looks like it wiggled off the sheet metal...
and caused the cracks in the cross member...
wtf? makes me want to dis assemble front nose altogether....
anybody? wtf? I drove it like this for like 50k highway... though...
ain't selling to some idiot... must know wtf!!!!
11-28-2017, 10:12 AM
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Re: 89 gta 5.7, runs too rich, won't rev, stalls instead
AND WHILE YOU ARE FILTERING...
the big change that did it? what was it? mostly bad ground, but also I changed "NOTHING"... how about that? some two shitty grounds up front...the back ones by the engine and firewall looked good... the front two sucked, looked ok... but no cross beam on the struts... and ... all the front shake shook the **** out of everything, in front of the radiator...cracks on the cross piece on both sides... dude, was that all that was doing
"hold it steady" ????
I will rip off the nose, and notice the bracket in front of radiator broken off...
looks like it wiggled off the sheet metal...
and caused the cracks in the cross member...
wtf? makes me want to dis assemble front nose altogether....
anybody? wtf? I drove it like this for like 50k highway... though...
ain't selling to some idiot... must know wtf!!!!
the big change that did it? what was it? mostly bad ground, but also I changed "NOTHING"... how about that? some two shitty grounds up front...the back ones by the engine and firewall looked good... the front two sucked, looked ok... but no cross beam on the struts... and ... all the front shake shook the **** out of everything, in front of the radiator...cracks on the cross piece on both sides... dude, was that all that was doing
"hold it steady" ????
I will rip off the nose, and notice the bracket in front of radiator broken off...
looks like it wiggled off the sheet metal...
and caused the cracks in the cross member...
wtf? makes me want to dis assemble front nose altogether....
anybody? wtf? I drove it like this for like 50k highway... though...
ain't selling to some idiot... must know wtf!!!!
08-11-2019, 11:16 AM
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Re: 89 gta 5.7, runs too rich, won't rev, stalls instead
Have you checked fuel pressure upon acceleration.
Last edited by maninacoupe; 08-11-2019 at 11:44 AM.
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