EFI data newbie here,
1986 tpi trans am, automatic with new mild 305 rebuild. I tried WINALDL and it seemed to work ok, I configured it for my original ECM number 1227165 I found this on my old broken ecm and set it to that ecm number. But......I am now runnung a replacment ecm that Advanced Auto sold me: Cardone part # 777165, I assume this is the same ecm. My old one went bad as soon as I tried to start the new motor and ruined my IAC for sure and made other sensors / relays go nuts. The new motor would not start till I replaced the ECM.


WINALDL works, but I had to use a 10k ohm resistor jumper from diagnostic port A to B.
My readings are listed below

Thanks in advance,
Mark

 

Flag Data Results:
MW2:
/ ALDL MODE 10K OHMS
/ DRP OCCURED
/ OVERDRIVE OK

MWAF1:
/ CLOSED LOOP
/ RICH FLAG (ON AT FIRST THEN FLASHES)
/ EEC SLOW 02 RICH LEAN FLAG (FLASHES WITH RICH FLAG)
/ BLM ENABLE FLAG

MCVIO:
/ NO A/C REQUEST
/ FAN REQUEST
/ EGR DIAGNOSTIC SWITCH CLOSED
/ OVERDRIVE REQUEST
/ PARK NEUTRAL

I have all EGR and Charcoal canister vaccum lines removed and plugged up because I had some gas coming out of the canister after running the car with the new ECM. I got a new canister valve and solenoid but I am afraid to put them on till I find out what caused it.

 

SENSOR DATA:
RAW----------------------CONVERTED
PROM ID 8291-------------------------0X2063
IAC 59----------------------------59
COOLANT TEMP 171--------------------------190.9F
SPEED 0---------------------------0
EGR 0-------------------------------0
RPM 41----------------------------1025
TPS 28-----------------------------.55
INT 128--------------------------128
O2 28 TO 186------------------.2 TO .82 AVG .56
MAT 158--------------------------148.7F
OLDPA3 1-------------------------------1
BLM 116-----------------------------116
RICH/LEAN 9 TO 249 THEN REPEATS CYCLE
MAF 2337 TO 2450-----------9.46 TO 9.55 G/S
BPW 102 TO 109---------------1.56 TO 1.67(MS)

The O2 will also run a little leaner whit the ESC unplugged with a AVG of .536 but thats still too high from normal .45 I get a little white smoke from the tailpipes when it runs either way and my plugs are getting some carbon on them.

The car heats up slowly at idle (takes 1/2 hour idle to get to 200F) till it starts to overheat, it heats up quicker when driven or reved up.

What do my readings look like to you guys???
Any ideas???

 

With the blm at 116 it is running rich. I noticed this is standing still, with the tps at .55 I can assume your foot is off the throttle but the 1000+ rpm is a bit high? Have you set the min idle air and timing correctly?
What bin code are you using?
Do the fan(s) come on when the car gets hot? Stock bins usually have a 200+ temp setting, so this could be normal.
Are you able to burn chips?

 

I did set the minimum IAC setting via an old Vader post with instructions and pictures. The idle in drive is approx 650rpm and it will fluctuate 75 rpm or so. I have swaped prom chips (both were stock chips for my 86 tpi)and other stuff since then, so I am not sure if I need to repeat the process to let the computer know what is going on.

I have the timing dialed in at stock 6*BTDC setting, I have tried anywhere from 4*BTDC to 10*BTDC and it seems to run the coolest at 6*BTDC, so thats where I left it.
All those readings were with no throttle so the .55tps looks good to me.

I have a dual electric fan setup wired up to a adjustable on / off temp switch. The stock fan wires are taped off and unused.

I do not have the chip burning stuff but I did just get a laptop and the WINALDL diagnostic program running on it. I think I will call Comp Cams and see if they have had problems with my tpi engine kit and stock proms. I can try to lern to burn proms but I will be starting with little knowledge. I have read the intro posts on the prom message boards, they help a little. Its still hard to believe that a few mods to a 305 would be too much for a stock prom. Funny thing is that I went a little more on the mild side of what I wanted to keep myself from having chip problems. The "compatible with stock" claim on the Comp kit was a real selling point for me when I bought it.

***UPDATE***
I called Comp Cams and they said my 86 has a slower reading computer (duh) and that it could run rich with stock chip and computer. He mentioned places like FastChips that can make a good chip that will make the car run ok.
I called FastChips and the guy said that the stock chip would make my car run rich with my mods.

 

The guy that mentioned the slower reading computer will cause a rich running motor is full of ( I have been waiting to have a chance to use that!)
You have the 165 ecm correct? Same one used from 86-89 I believe. I have this ecm on my 305 and have no problems tuning the motor. The 85 ecm had problems with the type of mask used on the bin code for the chip and other issues so most people I believe switch the 85 ecm to the 86 and up version.

Anyway, on the camshaft what are the specs? Duration at .050 lift for intake and exhaust is the most important.
On the chips you are using there is a 4 letter code stamped on them. You can take that and with a little searching here you can see what the original application it is for. If you give me the code I can open up the stock bin and see what the settings are.
But to really get this motor to run right you are going to have to do some burning, its not that hard and when you get it you will be hooked.
What are the blms/int when you are driving around?

Once you get the min air set it should be fine even with a chip change. 6 degs of timimg is good to start with. I would be curious to see what the timing table on the chip has for idle advance.

 

It was the guy at Comp cams who sais my older TPI ecm / chip was slower and would not be as compatible as the newer faster ecm/chip. Im not sure if I agree with his statment 100% either.

well, I went with a 212 218 cam that gives .449 .456 lift, and 112 seperation. I had bigger 1.94 intake valve put in so that will chang things too. Oh, and the 1.52 rocker ratio I have is a tiny bit more than original.
My car is at a friends place so I will get a chance to check chip #s when I get back there this saturday.

The dilemma is:
Fastchips price for a custom prom for my car is $350. That ammount would also buy the DIY equipment to get me started, but I dont have the experience yet to get it running ok. Getting it to run ok could take a while. I will check into the chip #s I have.

 

That camshaft should be fine, I am running a Crane with 204/204 and have no problems tuning it, idle is great and throttle is very crisp on accel.
As far as buying a chip, I have not heard of anyone who was 100% satisfied unless the company is willing to make an unlimited amount of changes for free to the chip they send you. Hard to tune a car when you are not able to drive it and log some data. Ignition advance timing is usually the problem, every car likes something different.
And there is so much you can do on your own! It's unbelieveable!
The $350 for the chip will cover the cost of burning equipment.

 

yeah, I was planning on sticking with this hobby so burning my own chips would be the way to go.

I want to get the car to run cool before I start on chip programming.
I have had 3 people tell me me running too hot problems are probably unrelated to it running rich. I have replaced the radiator, thermostat, waterpump, cooling fans and hoses so those all look and work good. I have been told by 3 shops that the next thing to check is the intake manifold gaskets, heads for cracks, and head gaskets to see if they are bad or put on wrong or are the wrong ones.


Im ashamed to say I took it to a shop and had them look at it. The guy said he didnt want to work on it because I have gone too far and it is not in stock condition. LOL This is the second shop that told me that, at least they are being honest. I have changed so much and done it myself, so he didnt know where to start looking for problems.
Im sure their eyes popped out when they saw all my loose wiring hanging out from under the dash and the ECM on the floor. The fuse box is just hanging there too, I have not bolted it back in yet (it is easy to test hanging out) hahah

Im gonna pull the heads off and take them to a shop to have them tested again and see what my gaskets look like.

 

There is an easier way to check head gaskets for leaks before you pull the heads off.
If intake gaskets where leaking you would have a low vacuum reading at idle, and the O2 sensor would show a lean condition which the ecm would try to compensate for buy adding fuel, but the blm would be lower than the 116 you said you had. And it may 'pop' in the intake on accelleration
What exactly is the temperature the engine is running at to make you feel it is too hot?
The winaldl program will show water temp. What is the highest that it gets up to?

 

temp just keeps going up, 235+ is where I shut it off. I verified the temp with a digital thermometer and the winaldl reading matches, also the gauge in the car seems to be accurate within 5*. You will burm your fingers trying to touch the valve covers when it says its 220*. At least the accurate temp gauge is 1 plus that the car has going for it.

The old block ran nice and cool but this new one does not. I re-used all the cooling equipment I had on originally and it overheats. I replaced it all with new stuff and it overheats. I tested both sets of radiators, waterpumps, thermostats, hoses, cooling fans set to come on at 160* and it still overheats. I am left thinking it is a gasket, head or block problem that causes it.

I am out of any other cooling problem ideas

Several people have told me that I may have put on the wrong gaskets or put them on upside down, bad heads, cracked block or whatever. I doubt that, but I can redo it with a 65$ gasket set and $50 to have my heads tested again. At least that will give me a yes or no answer on the gasket / head possibility.

I dont want to take it apart, but I am out of any other ideas.

 

Before you disassemble it try this: First do a compression check all the cylinders should be within 10% of each other, if that passes then do this to check for cracks/leaking head gasket.
You need an air source like a air compressor up to 100 psi and you need a screw in compression tester fitting so you can pressurize the cylinder. Remove the upper radiator hose, thermostat housing and thermostat. Leave the block full of water, do not drain! Water should be in the intake manifold up to the thermostat hole. Now with all the spark plugs removed and any cylinder at TDC pressurize the cylinder with 100 psi of air, watch for bubbles in the water, bubbles are bad!
One problem you will encounter, when you pressurize the cylinder if the piston is not exactly at TDC the motor will want to turn over and this will cause a valve to open, so you may have to loosen the rockers enough to stop that from happening, then when you but air in it will not matter where the piston is.
If you are set on tearing it down for head gasket R&R you can do this test first and you may find the problem is on only one head.
Another thing on overheating, timing can cause a problem, when you assembled the motor did you check that the dampner mark was aligned with the TDC pointer with #1 piston at TDC, sometimes the dampner can slip on the rubber insert. Also cam timing, correctly aligned marks on the gears?
Also have you tested the thermostat? Throw it in a pan of water on the stove with a thermometer in the water to see when it opens.

 

yup, boil tested 2 thermostats with a candy thermometer, opens and closes like normal.

I have a new vibration dampener the same size as the original, so I dont think its slipping or the wrong size. I tried a range of timing settings fron 5* more to 5* less than stock setting and it heats up the same. I reused the same timing cover so I know the pointer is in the same place.

I put the cam and crank gear on where the dots lined up facing eachother. Turned the motor 2 rotations and the dots lined up perfectly again. The chain felt like it had the same ammount of slack on each sede of the gears.

It seems like it runs too good to be that out of time. Idle is smooth and it allways starts right up, hot or cold, no backfires. It would still run at 500 rpm when I was setting the minimum idle settings (it died when I tried to get it lower). I followed Vaders instructions to set the minimum idle.

Good idea on the pressure test, will that will tell me if I put the wrong gasket on or had them on upsidedown? I got a full Head set for 86 tpi and want to compare them to the gaskets I used on the car from an open 84 LG4 set. I used those 84 gaskets because they were felpro's and so I only had to buy a upper plenum gasket set.

 

The pressure test will tell you if combustion pressure is entering the cooling system, the compression test will check if there is a leak between two cylinders and not into the coolant system.
You said you have vortec heads on the 350 block correct? I know this sounds lame but with all the work you have done and things you have tried sometimes it comes down to something really easy or over looked.
You are not running a 400 block? You do not have the reverse flow gen 3 or LT1, I think(?) heads. I forget which years they were used. Water jackets in heads/base manifold line up and are clear of obstructions. Bypass in the water pump/block mounting is not plugged by a inncorrect gasket? Thermostat is installed in the proper direction pellet is facing towards block. If you had a leak or crack you would lose coolant, are you?
What happens if you run without the thermostat?
Sounds like the timing is correct if it will idle at 500 rpm O.K.

 

It is a 305 block with stock 305 tpi intake with the 416 style 305 heads. All gaskets looked ok and were on correct, all the water jackets were open and unobstructed. I had the correct gaskets.

Unfortunatlet I found 2 scratches in # 7 cylinder bore. I must have had a sharp edge on one of the rings or on the side of the piston. I am going to put the old motor back in for now just so I can have the car to drive around while I check out the new motor for any more problems. The old motor is in great shape, It only needs like 100$ in parts, and it still has the wimpy girly-man cam in it that the stock computer likes.

 

Besides the pressure test I described you can also try this. I amm guessing you have a cross flow radiator, drain the fluid down enough so you can see the ends of the cooling tubes, with the motor running and warmed up and cap off you should see fluid pumping out the end of tubes at least 1/4 - 1/2 inch. Also are you using a clutch fan or electric? Do you have a fan shroud?

 

Thanks! I did not get to check the radiator flow like you said yet because the 2nd rebuild motor I put in has not gone much over 200* yet. It likes to run 190 to 205, I have put 1 hour run time on it at idle to 2500 rpm. I broke in the new cam and lifters and then got 30 miles run on her. Some of the running time was in the garage at various rpms to check the computer data. This type of running would have got the other motor way over 220*, the only changes I made were a different short block and a new radiator cap.
I had both electric fans on the entire time and the hood is still off, (LOTS of airflow)

BLMs for this new motor started off at 118 and then go to 112, it then hoverd around 112.
My other block with the bigger cam went from 118 to 110 then stayed at 110 (110 is rock bottom from what I have heard) The BLMs on this new motor were not much of an improvment so I changed my adjustable fuel pressure regulator from 42psi to 37psi and then the BLMs changed.
It now runs between 115 to 118 and steadies out at 118.
I will go back and lower the fuel pressure again to see if the BLMs get even closer to 128.

Is it going to be ok to run it around town at 118 BLMs for now?

EDIT:
I cant get any better than 118 BLMs, it goes from 114 to 118.
I put another 12 miles on her and it ran 195* to 205*, sofar shes roadworthy.

Odd enough, it runs worse with the laptop hooked up. The 10k ohm resistor and cable running WINALDL seems to make the idle a little unstable, it will fluctuate around 100 rpm only when the laptop is hooked up, and the exhaust makes a small poping noise when the computer is hooked up and the motor is reved. The exhaust does not make the noise any other time.

 

You should be able to remove the 10K resistor after the data is streaming to your laptop, this will put it back to normal running mode.
Driving around with 118 blm should be fine. It's not set at the best mixture but rich is better than lean.
The popping you mentioned, from intake or exhaust?

 

Excellent!!!! I never tried to remove the 10k resistor after it was working, I will try that.

The 10k resistor / hooking up the computer seems to make the exhaust from the tailpipes go put-put every now ant then.

It seems to do just fine and dandy without the computer / 10k resistor hooked up, no put-puts then.

This 2nd short block cost $450 total with gaskets, fluids and everything, I think this was a much better investment that the $350 chip that I could have had made for me. HAH! Now I have two motors to tune a chip for.

I just looked over tunerpro the other day to get a feel for it. The tunerpro real time version looks even better.

Thanks again,
What are you using to burn yours?

 

As far as I know the 10K resistor will only add some timing, like 6 degrees, could do more but I am unaware of anything else.
TunerPro RT is the software you want for logging data and it can be used to modify bins. The guy who made that is very helpfull when you have problems, goes by the handle of Magnus on this forum, also has his own forum for tunerpro software users. He keeps ungrading the program when problems arise and the download is free. You should really pay the $30 fee after you use it awhile and get the hang of it, its money well spent and Magnus deserves it!
You need the pocket programmer2 to burn chips.
I also use TunerCat to modify my bins.