ChevyKen

iTrader: (1)

Some of you may have read my posts a couple of weeks ago about all the problems I've been having with the car running like crap until warming up.

Well, this weekend I found the main problem. There was something wrong with one of the Accel shorty plugs that caused it not to seat properly so it was leaking thus naturally causing problems! I replaced all the plugs with a set of splitfires which was the only other plugs I could fine locally that wasn't too long, and that took care of that problem.

SO, now the problems are a little bit clearer at the least. Let me describe the problem at this point:

I am still having problems at start up. It WILL fire almost instantly, but will NOT run on idle when it is all cold (like in the morning). It will run but I have to keep pumping the gas varying the RPMs in order for it not to die.
So, I do this and trick it into gear without killing it and get out on the road. As SOON as I get on the road and can get the rpms up some and start driving, it'll run perfectly fine. The problem is ONLY at startup on cold engine. The rest of the day when I start it every few hours going here and there, I just have to touch the key and it starts right up AND idles just fine.
I have noticed that if I give it a bottle of injector cleaner at night, it will start much easier the following morning.

The other problem is when flooring it, it will hesitate when passing about 2000 rpms, then start picking up - and then throw a code seconds later. The code is usually 43, but sometimes 44 in addition.
I have also noticed when it is REAL cold, it starts EASIER, and Im thinking that is because the cold start injector is activated?

SO, here are my questions:
1. I did install a new TPS, and Im not able to adjust this one either to reach 4v at WOT, it will be 3.7-3.8 at the most. How is the TPS related to the rest, is it possible that since its voltage to the ECM (I assume?) doesn't indicate WOT, when it actually is that the timing will be off or something?

2. Considering the fact that the injector cleaner AND cold start injector activation helps, that the problem is with the injectors?

3. What are common problems with a faulty fuelpump relay?


Thanks a lot for any thoughts and/or inputs!


Ken

ChevyKen

iTrader: (1)

No one has any good ideas for this one?
My car is getting ready to be put up for adoption if I can't get it straight soon. I've spent all my freetime and a cr@pload of money on it since September, and it is still not running right.....


Ken

IROCThe5.7L

I dont know but I'll give you a bump ^


Don't give up so easily

Hellraiser

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ChevyKen


SO, here are my questions:
1. I did install a new TPS, and Im not able to adjust this one either to reach 4v at WOT, it will be 3.7-3.8 at the most. How is the TPS related to the rest, is it possible that since its voltage to the ECM (I assume?) doesn't indicate WOT, when it actually is that the timing will be off or something?

----
I think you're ok with the tps.... thats just about where you want to be, and as long as the readings are nice and smooth not jumpy while opening the tps/throttle its fine.



2. Considering the fact that the injector cleaner AND cold start injector activation helps, that the problem is with the injectors?

You can do a simple check on the injectors by measuring the resistance across each one with a digital voltmeter. I don't know the proper value, but maybe someone else can fill us in??


[quote]er problem is when flooring it, it will hesitate when passing about 2000 rpms, then start picking up - and then throw a code seconds later. The code is usually 43, but sometimes 44 in addition.
I have also noticed when it is REAL cold, it starts EASIER, and Im thinking that is because the cold start injector is activated?
[quote]

My only other thoughts here would be to check the condition of your ignition module (if you havent already), and to do a fuel pressure test on the car to see if the injectors might be leaking down. This is usually done with the key on and the engine not running. It should hold fuel pressure indefinately... (my book says 34-47 psi??). If it seems to be losing pressure over time, suspect the injectors. Good luck

Hellraiser

ChevyKen

iTrader: (1)

Thanks a lot for your inputs Hellraiser!!

1. No, it is very smooth and nice, but just doesn't go over 4v like suggested in the tech article.

2. I'll try to find the specs for the resistance. Thanks for that idea, I didn't know about that!!

3. The timing unit is new, but I might replace it again to make sure. It is warranty on it anyways!
I will get me a fuel pressure gauge and check that, that sounds like another great idea to check out the injectors.


Thanks again,
And keep your ideas and thoughts coming.


Ken

ChevyKen

iTrader: (1)

Just scooting over from the DIY PROM board as we were getting a bit off topic:


Okay, so is the volume test is done by disconnecting the fuel line and simply measuring how much it'll pump out in 30 seconds?

Yes the plenum, runners and base were all replaced, so it has all been apart. And yes, after all the mods I've had problems. As you may have seen in the initial post in this thread - I found a faulty plug causing a leak that was the reason for the more substantial problems I had initially.

When installing the runner gaskets I want to believe I got it right as I carefully checked it out - but don't we all? If that is a common mistake, I will check that out for sure. I will get me some carb cleaner and do some checking this weekend. I'll try to see if I can get a new set of gaskets for the base/runners and swap them if needed when I take off the plenum to install the AFPR. It came with new upper gaskets, so I already have those.

I appreciate the explanation of the usage of the carb cleaner. I will do that check this weekend as well. And yes, I'll be careful with the headers etc. that get real hot

I will also check the brake booster. You are talking about the fat vaccuum hose going to it, right?

So, do you think that the WOT surge around 2500-3000 rpms is also related to vaccuum problems, or do you think that is an electrical/fuel problem that is separate from the startup issue?

Thanks,

Ken

8Mike9

Ken,

Is TPS voltage at .54vdc at idle?

TBI305Camaro

my car was doing the EXACT same thing it would start fine but i would have the rev the crap outta it and if i could get it into gear and moving it would run fine after awhile it was the fuel pump... if its the pump when you get it fixed your gonna crap your pants itll run so much better. hope this helped...pump and strainer run 35$ but you have a 1-2 full day job ahead of you

ChevyKen

iTrader: (1)

Mike,

Yes, right on the mark!


Ken

grumpygreaseape

so....is the pump pressures good or bad? volume check? is it fixed? PLEASE as soon as possible remove splitfire plugs and install them in the shi-can then put a\c delco regular old plugs in the car. gotta do say byebye to them and dont do that again-slap-did you feel that-slap- there there much better--- last post has left me befuddled, is it fixed??? carb spray will ignite with sparks that are not happening in the chamber too be safe-power booster line is the big one, yes

grumpygreaseape

one more-- upon replacing ign module-did an ac delco factory part go in the dist? was the pickup in the dist.showing its age? wire pigtail insulation brittle? cracked? cloth covering falling to bits?

ChevyKen

iTrader: (1)

TBI305Camaro,
Thanks for that input - it ties together with grumpygreaseape's fuel pump questions!

grump,
Well, I don't know - I have not checked it yet, I was wondering if the way I described it is the way to check this? I've never done it before so I don't know how to.

The splitfires are the only plugs other than the accel shortys that I have found that fits under the headers. There is no way the reg. plugs will fit. Any other short plugs I can use? And what is wrong with split fires?

Last post was to Mike who was wondering if the TPS voltage was .54V, and I was just stating that it is right on .54v. Sorry for the confusion.

No Im 95% sure the ign. module is not a factory part, but I'll check the box - I still have it in the car.

Not following you 100% here - are you talking about the pickup coil? If so, it is 2 years old at the most, so it is not real old. However, I was not specifically looking at it so that I can say if it looked bad or not.
Wire pigtail insulation? Which wires do you mean, and the same for the cracked and cloth covering question. Im not sure exactly what you mean.

Thanks again, I have a feeling we're getting somewhere with this systematic error tracking!!


Ken

grumpygreaseape

are we looking at a small cap\remote coil type dist. or a big cap\coil on top distributor? the wires on the pickup im asking about are the 2 small ga.ones that send the rotation signal to the ign module the 2 wires are terminated in a plug together and attach to term "p" and "n" on the ign. module. are they ok? and there is a yellowish cloth covering the pickup coil windings(cloth starts life as a clean white) is it generally intact? are there many miles on the distributor? ohm out the coolant temp sensor at cold and hot and let me know those resistances also splitfires are poop-nuff said to recap ac delco module go get accel shortys gotta go for now

Vader

GGA,

The '86 TPIs were equipped from the factory with the coil-in-cap distributor. Because of this and the clearance problems with the plenum and extension, the '85 and '86 TeePee Eyes used a lower, different HEI cap and rotor than the other coil-in-cap engines. They can be a real sumnabich to find, since they only ran a couple of years and many auto parts "grocery stores" have inferior cross references. They always want to hand out the standard height parts that don't fit. DOH!

Ditto on the P.O.S. "ShlitFires". They make great river sinkers for snagging salmon, though. You can braze a huge treble hook to the end and, oh, never mind...

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Ken,

I just finally noticed your location. How are things at EIEIU since I left there? (We won't go into the details, but we were using sliderules instead of handheld calculators at the time.) Is the Barn still there? Better yet, where are you finding parts and tools? Champaign? Terra Haute?

Forget about the TPS voltage at WOT for now - that's not even an issue at startup. As the "Ape" suggested, check the fuel pressure at idle, then with the FPR vacuum hose removed and capped. We're all waiting to see those numbers. That and the fuel flow to an open container will tell us a lot. But even the pressure for now would be great. If you can get your hands on a gauge, it will only take about two minutes to get a reading.

(HINT: A refrigeration gauge can be used as long as you clean and dry the hoese when finished.)

And to satisfy the question of the CTS, check the resistance and compare it to this table:



If there are any large differences, you could have a CTS issue contributing to the problem.


I think I see where the "Grumpy Ape" is going with this, and he's all over it man. He suspects a lean mixture from poor fuel delivery. This would explain the poor cold starts, poor throttle response and hesitation under load, and occasional DTC 43 and 44 (detonation from a lean/hot combustion chamber and lean O² sensor indication). I'm guessing he's seen this before and already has some really good guesses about the solution.

While you are still fighting this problem, I would advise you to keep your right foot off the floor if possible, since too much of that lean operation at heavy throttle openings could induce lean backfire. That can toast your MAF hot wire before you know it, and you don't need to add to your problems right now.

ChevyKen

iTrader: (1)

First of all, you guys ROCK! Im finally starting to feel like it is possible to get to the bottom of this mess.

grump,
Vader is right, it is the dist. cap with the coil in it. However, I never knew there was anything special with the 85/86, and to my knowledge I've gotten generic ones several times that fit with zero problem - or, have I just been lucky and found AutoZone dudes that know what they're doing?

I will check the wires you're talking about - I thought those were the ones you meant but I cannot recall their condition. However, I do recall that the little plastic (bakelite?) "clamp" right on the inside of the dist. was cracked.
I'll also have to check on the cloth. Will do that too tomorrow/saturday (won't be too popular around here if I start working on that thing on val.day ).

The distributor itself is the stock one, so it has right around 80K on it. The cap/rotor has less than 1K on them.

Where is the easiest place to ohm the coolant temp sensor?

Im getting the hint that the sh!tfliers need to go ehe? Well, it was a last resort when I got them. So, Im up for another set of Accels then, which gave me the Major trouble as this thread initially shows.

So, I have to buy Yet another ign module so that I get the stock one?

-------------------

Vader,

Yeah, EIU is hangin' in there. I've got two more months and till graduation!! Cool to find a fellow Panther on here!!
What barn are you referring to? The old one out in the field? If so, yup - still here. If it is/was some kind of...uhm..establishment, then nope, not here
I buy most of my parts through Summit and occationally eBay, but smaller everyday parts I get in Mattoon at AutoZone. Tools is just anywhere nearby. Im not really familiar with Champaign that much, and not at all with Terre Haute.

Okay, so I won't think about the TPS voltage @ WOT now then, I thought maybe it *could* be related to the hesitation, or that there was a link between that and the code 43...

As for the FP, I've got a gauge now and have checked it at idle but only with the vaccuum hose on. It was right about 42 psi. I'll check it with the hose off and capped in a few, and post it.
I will also do that flow test tomorrow if I can't get to sneak out tonight LOL.

Thanks for the advice on keeping my right foot calm. I certainly will!

And, thanks so far!!

Oh, BTW Vader - Im not sure if you caught the thread on the prom board that got us on a roll, so here it is in case you wanted to see:
https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...threadid=83116


Ken

grumpygreaseape

heya-i was gonna crawl up in 'em last nite when reading sentences with wot in them and felt at this point i was already shouting orders enough. but really that wot behavior isnt "prudent at this juncture" so we fixie car first and enjoy wot hammer time when she (read car) regains her health. thanx, vader seeya- if i had that car in front of me it would be done, i can tell ya that. and again---typing sux

:rockon:


"river sinkers for snagging salmon" o man im fuc-in rollin here vader the quintessential eloquence of the words you put to keyboard fu---n classic that phrase is a keeper. i will give credit when asked though, ok?

Vader

I suspected you would. I think we're both on the same page on this one, but it's more fun to walk them through it so they learn something.

ChevyKen

iTrader: (1)

Due to this val.day crap I didn't get anything done tonight - not even check the fp without the vaccuum etc, as it was pitch dark when we came home. I'll do it tomorrow!

BTW, I've been "walking through" this POS car since august, and walked through my wallet & bank account on a weekly basis since then, so if there are any shortcuts to the core of the problem, Im ready!!!

So, mmmmm who's closest of the two of you? Im headed over so you can have it infront of you

Anyways, thanks for the help - I've got a ton of checking to get done this weekend!! I'll keep you up to date.


Ken

ChevyKen

iTrader: (1)

Okay,

I checked the FP again:
At idle it starts out at 40-41, then slowly sinks to about 38-39.

When I took off the vaccuum to the FPR, it immediately jumped to 46-47, and it was the same no matter if I capped the vacc. hose or not.

Edit: Forgot to say that the idle went up quite a bit when the vaccuum was disconnected. I can go back and check how much (rpms) if that is of importance.

Thanks,


Ken

ChevyKen

iTrader: (1)

Oh,
I also got the new ECM today, I'll test it tomorrow!


Ken

grumpygreaseape

what you mean test, nonono senor, disconnect battery NEGATIVE ,unplug old ecm, swap memcal, plug in new, ensure key off, reconnect battery NEGATIVE, start car, win battle, enjoy

ChevyKen

iTrader: (1)

LOL, that's the way I did it - and it went just fine.
I've only driven the car a little bit after the ECM swap, but it did not surge when I floored it - nor did I get a code. However, I did not *always* get a code before either, so I can't say that that problem is gone for sure.

Anyways,
The BIG news is that I bought the carb cleaner and did some testing. Sure enough when spraying on the drivers side rear runner towards the intake base - the RPMs clearly went down for then again to come up again within a few seconds. That happend everytime I sprayed right there.
I did not find any other problems with that though.
So, I will get the lower gaskets this coming week since noone around here had them in stock.


Guess that could be the main problem related to the startup, or?

Also, what do you guys gather from the fuel pressure readings that I posted yesterday? Did it give any clues?
And, when I install the AFPR, what is a good starting point to aim for - about 47 psi ??

Thanks again guys,


Ken

PS - I got a set of Accel Shortys today too - but did not have the time to put them in. Do you all keep the stock gap, or should the gap be different?

ChevyKen

iTrader: (1)

A bump up

grumpygreaseape

hi-still here-any developments-what is it starting like? like poop? also you describe a surge wot 25-3500 please describe better for me. is it a stuttering sharp type of engine miss, possibly? when it is acting up does tach needle jump around too? surge as i understand it and use when describing symptoms is generally caused by a lean condition and it is more of a gentle variation of speed, and usually at fwy. speeds when at cruise-how fast does the rpms climb thru the surging that you feel? are you left with no power or??? can it hit redline in a timely fashion howzit sound to your ears is it unhealthy sounds or clean after 3500?questions questions questions seeya for now

zroc

I'm just giving this post a bump... I have followed it and want to see the final product of the efforts given here... like GGA I hate to type... and am somewhat apprehensive to throw my $.02 in (mostly be cause its hard for me to diag without having the car in front of me and usually not enough info is given)...

the fact that he has .54v at idle on the tps and less that 4.0 @ WFO makes me wonder what is up with that??? can you hold the throttle blades open by hand and get a higher voltage???

fix that vacuum leak and lets figure out that next problem...

also what was the deal w/ the ECM??? IIRC the 86's have had a common problem but what is it???

and yes another question.... is there a site that gives detailed info on TSB's... or do you have to have a freind at a dealership to get all the cool stuff???

thanks

zroc

Vader

ZROC,

We're waiting for Ken to repair the apparent vacuum leak on the left side of the engine, near the cold start injector. He evidently discovered that with his own version of the propane test. Could be gaskets, cold start valve or air distribution, or PCV system. We'll wait and see.

The common "problem" with '86 TPI ECMs was not truly with the ECM, but a calibration error in the PROM. This was repaired in October of 1986 - AFTER the production year ended. So all '86 TPIs have a suspect PROM, and GM had a TSB on the problem. I've made several references to that over the past couple of years, but not lately.

Some TSBs can be found at the NHTSA web site: http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/tsb/Index.cfm A dealer service department should have access to the GM database with all relevant TSBs as well.

The TPS voltage is far more important at idle than WOT at this point, but we'll probably be working on that problem later as a final detail.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Ken,

The fuel pressure specification is 37 PSIG +/- 3 PSIG at idle with the vacuum line connected.

If you're using a stock HEI ignition, start with 0.035" gaps to be safe.

The new ECM will take a while to relearn the sensor inputs and engine parameters while it writes new BLM tables. Until than,it will tend to run on backup fuel and spark tables. After about 20-40 minutes of running at various loads and RPMs, the ECM should have a good set of data.

And I'm about 8 minutes north/northwest of you - if you're going *****-out in an F-15. I'm thinking GGA is almost an hour away at that rate.

You've already invested a lot of your free time and quite a few Kroner on this project, so we're committed now. (If we're not committed, perhaps we should be?)

ChevyKen

iTrader: (1)

Hey guys - had to do some more driving before I could answer the questions about the new ECM.

grump,
It is starting but seems to have gotten slightly worse on the idling as I need to drive longer before it will idle on its own. Due to the poor idling when cool, it has very bad breaks for example when coming up to a light/stop sign with a cold engine. This part is worse than it was with the old ECM. However, I'd like to see how it does tomorrow morning after cooling over night since the last "ice cold" start was before the car had ran sufficiently with the new ECM. I will get back on that tomorrow!
The surge that Im talking about (still exists btw with the new ECM!) happens when going hard on the throttle, and it feels almost as if it is out of gas. It takes it maybe 2-3 seconds to get up to about 3000 from 24-2500 when the surge happens. Then when it hits 3000 it pulls strong all the way. It will hit redline in a timely fashion except for the "surge". To me it sounds like it is healthy once the rpms starts climbing. It sounds smooth and accelerates evenly and strong.
I'd like to add that after adding the new ECM, the engine runs different at idle (after it is warm and WILL idle). I can't quite put my finger on what it is, but it has kind of a sharper sound to it. I have no idea if that makes any sense, but I have gotten so used to listening to this engine for noises and whatnot, that I know there is something different.
As the new ECM is getting adjusted to the car - do I need to go over and check things like the TPS voltage and stuff, or should that not have changed?

zroc,
Appreciating you jumping in as well. Seems like this stinker needs all the brainpower it can get.
Regarding the TPS: No, when opening the throttle fully by hand, I still get a max less than 4.0V,( around 3.78V). I even tested when I had the TPS of the TB and twisted it up to max, but still not more than the 3.78V. I have not tested this since I slipped in the new ECM this weekend though. That could possibly have changed, right?
I'll get on the vaccuum leak as soon as I get some new gaskets.

Vader,
Okay, so it is within the specs on the FP then! Cool!
Yup, using the stock ignition, and .035" is what I had the others set at too - will do the same with the new set.
I took it for a longer run today to get the ECM set, so I hope that is taken care of now. Should be interesting to see what happens in the morning.
8 minutes, huh? Makes it sound like you're next door Guess that ain't quite the case..
Yeah, the free-time invested is almost at 100%, except a few weekends when finals etc. has forced itself upon me. So, that gives a solid amount of hours since August, and I don't even wanna know all the Kroner gone into it.
Committment is good...yeah, that's good!

I think that's all the questions so far.


Ken

grumpygreaseape

for the sheer fun of it all-take that dist. and give er a twist. wing it and advance the timing a smidge or if that isnt sitting good with the factory manual part of you, which is cool then timing lite it to 15 btdc w timing wire disconnected-black/tan above ac evap.housing. reconnect and drive it to evaluate -without wot behavior-baby it and listen for detonation. let me know how it runs and if it stops flubbering about. how it starts understand that ecm must relearn when changes are made. you could do an idle relearn (complete) prior to this but lets tackle that chore after this-idle speed will increase with the additional timing. plug temporarily the vac.line to egr valve. same for purge line from cannister try taking fuel cap off. one change at a time. test drive-check results note any change and then try another

ChevyKen

iTrader: (1)

Okay - back with a couple of updates!

but first off - grump,
I'll try to work with the distributor and see what I can find out. But, I doubt it will run at 15 btdc, I will try though. Are you saying that the idle speed will go UP when setting the timing from 9 to 15 btdc? That sounds odd?
Im having a little trouble following you - correct me if the following is not what you meant:
1. Set timing to 15°, test drive carefully but long enough for the ECM to "relearn"
2. Set idle speed, test drive again.
3. Pull vaccuum line to egr valve, plug it - test drive.
4. Pull purge line from cannister, test drive (BTW, is that the thick or the thin line to the TB?)
5. Remove fuel cap, test drive again.

Please let me know if that was what you meant.


Now to the updates, after driving the car for a few more days in order to get consistant results.
First of all, there is a very clear change in the behaviors after the ECM change. It is actually kinda confusing.
The car now starts right away in the morning, and will idle right on the spot. However, the idle spees is now about 1000rpm vs. roughly 750rpms before.
The next change is when I start driving. Previously it would be tricky to start, but once you got rolling it was doing okay. Now once I get started and pull out the driveway down to the stopsign, it is idling very low, misfires (skips) and wants to stop. It feels like it is not running on all cylinders, and if going regular ~40mph around town and letting go off the accelerator when approaching intersections etc. - it tends to "pop" in the exhaust.
Now, once it warms up nicely - it will run and idle fine.
So, basically that startup & "cold driving" behaviors are pretty much opposite of what they used to be.

AND, to top everything off - there is a new problem in the mix (***, does it ever end!). Im experiencing an over heating problem when idling after it gets warm. I believe the fan is not starting. I've checked the fuse, but it is fine - so I guess I've gotta search for that problem as well now.......

The gaskets arrived today to the runners, so Saturday I'll be installing those and the AFPR.

Thats the story of this weeks happenings with this grumpy li'l bastage know as my IROC.


Ken

Vader

Ken,

Grumpy is correct, as it seems he is most of the time. (Keep your eye on this one - he's got his head screwed on straight...)

All else being equal, and all conditions correct, the idle speed shouyld tend to increase as the ignition timing is advanced - at least to a point, and 15° BTDC is not anywhere near that point. Keep in mind that the ECM will try to maintain the target idle speed via the IAC, but the engine should want to idle faster.

Setting the base timing at 15° and keeping the EST in bypass should eliminate the ESC variable. If the engine runs well without stumbling like that, the ESC system/ESC module/detonation sensor are suspect.

In that vein, with the new ECM you should probably recheck the TPS voltage and reset the throttle minumu air position. The new ECM may be regulating the 5VDC supply at a different point than the old one, and the TPS can change as a result. You may get that 4.0+ volts at WOT yet.

Eliminating the EGR vacuum sorce should also elimninate the EGR variable. The same with the EVAP purge control hose, and fuel tank cap. One of these steps may result in "back-to-normal" operation, which would narrow the problem to a given system.

And as a reminder, when you install the intake gaskets and AFPR this weekend, do yourself a big favor and set the fuel presure to the stock setting for now. You don't need to introduce another variable to confuse the situation more. There is a strong chance that you will find a problem at one of the intake gaskets, the cold start injector seal, or the EGR system when you remove the induction system. Your test with the spray cleaner is a strong indication of a leak somewhere at the left rear. As I recall there is the cold start, brake booster vacuum line, and the normal array of intake runners there. It is also possible that the EGR valve has worked loose or burned a gasket and is leaking on the intake side, or you have a problem with the plenum itself, like a crack or leaky MAT sensor.

Good luck, and keep us apprised of what happens.

grumpygreaseape

hiya fellas-it seems the gist of my approach is understood and you know the approach we are taking-got to start narrowing the possibilities cuz the end of my tail is getting old to be lookin at HAHAHA we will get there. sounds as if the minimum air needs reset and if spec on the car is only 450-try 550-600 substitute that # for the first adjustment # which i think is 450 but that could be the 85 spec. ck. it out. that hesitation sounds like a classic case of the ecm learning a new way to behave. upon second start up did the symptom improve? remember FUEL, AIR, SPARK-its one of em. vader, thanx dude. you are a gent. but you might want to check with the prom boys i dont think they share your opinion of me-i think its sorted out now-tread lightly

alexrela

I had cold start problem also, it was bad cooling sensor. It was telling computer that it was at 160 dec when cold.

ChevyKen

iTrader: (1)

Vader,
I definitely have confidence in grump - and with the two of you teamed together here helping out, I feel that I might get close to the core shortly. As it is now, time is the limit. I have set off tomorrow (saturday) though to do a lot of stuff.
Now, regarding the timing - when referring to the EST being bypassed - do you mean by keeping the tan/blk wire disconnected?
I will check the TPS again tomorrow and see if the voltage has changed and if the TPS needs to be reset.
Will also try the vaccuum hoses - but which of the two lines to the cannister am I plugging? The thick or the thin one?
I had actually thought about the same thing with the AFPR - to keep the stock setting for now. I just wanted to slip it in there while I have the plenum/runners off.
Now how do I check the cold start injector seal and the EGR system for leaks? Are they visible? See, it is possible that there is something wrong there, as none of the injection parts except the TB and injectors, are the stock ones.

grump,
thanks for confirming that I got is straight
The minium air you are talking about is the IAC, right? Now Im not familiar with the specs you mentioned - what are those ?
As for the ECM, yes - it has gotten better than right after the swap.

alexrela,
Hey man - thanks for your input! That is along the lines of what Vader posted earlier in the table, I'd think? BTW, that table doesn't show up anymore for me - can anyone else still see it?


Well here is the gameplan for tomorrow - if there are anything I should add or do in a different order, please let me know.

1. Replace sh!tflier plugs with Accel Shortys.
2. Replace runner gaskets.
3. Install AFPR.
4. Check for problems with cold start injector + EGR system (need some inputs on that).
5. Put plenum/runners etc. back on
6. Check/set TPS
7. Set FP to stock setting
8. Test start
9. Set base timing to 15°
10. Test drive with EST disconnected
11. Check CTS specs
12. Reset idle
13. Plug EGR vaccuum
14. Test drive
15. Plug evap. purge control line (need input on which one it is)
16. Test drive
17. Remove gas cap
18. Test drive
19. Check fuel pump capacity

Im thinking that some points after #12 can be skipped if the car is found to run right.
Does this sound about right? Anything missing, or should the order be rearranged?

I'll let you know how it comes along tomorrow!!!

Thanks guys,

Ken

zroc

man the the more I think about it get rid of the vacuum leak... even when you put the new gaskets on (are they special for the SLP runners???) double check and make sure its gone (every where)... I don't like using rtv on manifold gaskets (except on some water passages and then spaingingly)... on water pumps I like to soak those in a little antifreeze to let them swell up a bit...

do one repair at a time and double check and if you can isolate or post back on each one...

I came on this a bit late so please give me that consideration... (I did track back to the DIY board)...

best of luck man...

zroc

grumpygreaseape

oy-im here-please tell me that we got into "field service mode"to set minimum air,tps volts and initial timing. if this has NOT been done-some heads are gonna roll. heres what should get tried sooner than later. 1) warm up car 150-220. 150 is enough for this. 2) disconnect blk. and tan "set timing" wire -rt.rear eng.compt. in or on main harness above ac evap.housing. 3) start car 4) set timing to spec. or up to 10btdc 5) key off 6)reconnect wire. 7)git yerself yer favorite paperclip 8)proceed to aldl underdash. 9)jump from a to b if you look at aldl as a "t" shaped plug ill try to lay it out- f e d c b a - top six holes in aldl ------g h j k l m---bottom six holes see to the left of "g" and to the rt. of "m" are little plastic nubs.which should be at the bottom-that makes a and b the upper rt.connections-most aldl's are marked w/letters but they are small and impossible to see for sure-on the 1st go around. 10) ram paperclip in a+b 11) turn key on -dont start!! you will verify ck engine light is flashing-if not do #10 again till contact is made between a+b 12) wait 30 seconds 13) go feel iac motor, is it clicking? let it do its thing another 10 seconds 14) pull 4 way weatherpack connector from iac-while key is on- 15)key off 16)start car-wth disconnected iac-make it idle -spec is 400 rpm-try 500 rpm. 17)once idling ok and throttle is at its adjusted opening-set min tps volts .54 plus minus .06. reconnect everything. start car and drive around a few minutes. minimize idling around in gear (as in traffic jam) or foot to the floor. is it any better after all that? you pretty much have it down what to do as far as vacuum lines all can be plugged whereever you see one hooked up at the plenum pull it and plug for testing. power brakes wont work to good if it gets to that point of disconnecting it -beware of dicey brakes -dead head fuel pressure by quickly pinching off return line -what does it spike to? next chapter is going to be the air mgmt valve and finding if the stuff is going to the components it is supposed to-can cause code 44 if it upstream when it should be down.bedtime now talk tommorow-

grumpygreaseape

f e d c b a
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
g h j k l m

zroc

connect a&b after starting vehicle...

zroc

wait... disreguard... its been a long time since I've done that on the aldl... I usually do it with a scanner and that doesn't sound correct...

you will probably just get codes that way...

zroc

ChevyKen

iTrader: (1)

zroc,
Yes, Im headed off to fix that vaccuum leak right now The gaskets are the same as stock, but needs to be trimmed a little (yup, I'll be very careful!!)

gga,
Yes, when I set the TPS and IAC before, I did put it in field service mode as you described. To set those two, I used the methods described in John Baechtel's book Chevy TPI Fuel Injection Swapper's Guide
I'll do it over again when Im done swapping the gaskets, which Im sure is important anyway since the ECM was swapped.

Any additional info on how to check the cold start injector and the EGR system if that has to be done with the plenum off, would be greatly appreciated!!

Thanks,


Ken <~~Heading off to the garage, but will check back with results regularly

grumpygreaseape

and in fsm you got a steady idle with adjustability to boot? it was cooperative when set to factory timing spec with blk/tan disconnected? at what point did the idle instability and hard start start becoming a concern?

grumpygreaseape

pull egr valve and blow/suck thru where pintle and seat meet-mmmmmmmm-tasty-wipe er off first a little is ok-well FRANK how much is a little-not alot minor. then clean it with carb spray at the seat work the diagfram (spell) by hand to lift pintle off seat. is there a p or an n on the valve? most all tpi have p-positive backpressure- which means that simply applying vacuum to the port shouldnt lift the pintle. and at this point if its not leking internally thats good for now-note any carb.spray ooze-ing past the rod attached to the diaphragm(got it this time)externally.gotta work now myself

ChevyKen

iTrader: (1)

Just checking back. Got it almost all torn down now, just on my way to get a new torx driver to be able to pull the last bolt from the runner without taking off the valve cover.

gga,
The idle is steady once the car is fully warm, which it was when I set the timing. It was not a problem to set the timing with the blk/tan wire disconnected.
The idle problem is a problem when the engine does not have full normal operating temp. This became a problem after the cam/headers/plenum/runners/intake etc. was installed. It was all done at once.

BTW, One thing I noticed when removing the plenum was that the little opening (1/2") on the pass side runner seemed to have accumulated a grainy oil substance. Not a whole lot, but enough for me to notice. Is that normal, and also, where does that opening go?



Ken

grumpygreaseape

damn-i hate typing-i just typed a frickin huge questionaire here an i hit the friggginfrigging g**damned esc key with my motherf--0kin thumb by c--ksuckin mistake f---uuuuuck and it all disappeared f**k s**t f**k sheeeeeit. again-to paraphrase-car sits overnite get in turn key towards start-notice ck.eng. lite illuminates briefly and hear pump prime fuel system crank motor over and car sputters to life but badly. pump pedal as if it was a carb to keep it goin and it does. what wiil happen if pedal is left stationary? what about if held down to approximate an idle speed of 2500/3000 how about any engine speed but pedal must be still? it just sputters out completely without the pedal manipulations. any artificial enrichment been applied (carb spray) into intake tract as engine sputters out-need another man on the ign key as you man battle stations at the motor and spray into the motor some cleaner-NOW LISTEN-i have sprayed carb cleaner thru the air clener housing which will allow it to pass thru the maf sensor-ive learned to accept certain risks to expedite in my world-i have never never had a problem at the moment or caused any future problems doing it that way. it can be done. i wont tell you to do it that way or recommend you do. i can just see the words comin off peoples keyboards now. but you must induce a flammable mixture into the plenum somehow and evenly as possible. pretty much leaves booster line or pcv. if the driveability symptoms dont improve after this work today. the next step is what i described if it has not been done.once you have nursed the motor thru its cold start blues-at what point is an improvement noticed? how hot is "full normal operating temp" you describe? and is it as if s switch is thrown and its better or is it a gradual thing? im gonna pm you with a # to call if ya want and we will sort this out ok? ok?

grumpygreaseape

to re-iterate *FUEL AIR SPARK*

ChevyKen

iTrader: (1)

Okay, here is a run down of yesterdays work,

1. I replaced all the runner gaskets. The rear drivers side one on the bottom looked bad. So that was most definitely a problem.

2. Installed the AFPR (Crane unit). What the heck is up with that bolt being so long that it rubs against the bottom of the plenum, making it almost impossible to adjust? Looks like it would have fit a lot better without that little distance plate that you put inside. I set the fuel pressure, but it seems to not be all steady? Maybe it is just until I've run the car some.

3. Replaced all the plugs with Accel shortys. Suprisingly all the splitfires looked very good.

4. Set the TPS, NOW I can get it in the correct range. I left it a .54V on idle and 4.2V on WOT. This should prove that there was definitely a problem with the stock ECM.

I stopped working at 1:00am, so I still have to set the IAC and the timing.

Yesterday's additional problem: A very leaky trans! Which goes well with last time's additional problem, a non-running fan - as they have absolutely nothing in common. I keep falling in love with my Camaro!

Today;s additional problem: A solid code 32 on startup.


gga,
Uhmmm...okay.
Let me start from the very beginning:
1. The car would start but would run like completely crap. Detonating in the cat, running on only a few cylinders - and would not idle by any means. As you describe, to keep it running I HAD to vary the RPM's. If I held it steady at, say 15-2000 rpms, it would just die as if you cut of the ignition. I had to vary it above 1500 in order for it to somewhat run. It would tend to stop once I put it in gear to start driving - but if you got going it would eventually get better as it got warm. When I say warm I mean around 220F. When that happend it would feel kinda like if someone tried to put on the last plug cap while driving. You could feel that it started running on the last cylinder a little bit, and then just all of a sudden ran right. This would ALWAYS happen around 220F.
The problem here was found to be a faulty spark plug, one of the initial set of Accel shortys that I had, that has something wrong where it did not seat right and thus leaked badly.

2. When this was fixed by installing the almighty splitfiers, the behavior changed quite a bit.
Now the car would still start poorly, but as SOON as the car was put in drive and you headed down the road - the car would run nicely. No problems with stopping at red lights etc., with cold engine - which was the case before.
This is the stage I was at when you came to help in the DIY forum. I would always get the SES light if going WOT, and I was not able to adjust the TPS within range.

3. This is the stage up until now. I got the ECM and replaced it as we talked about. This once again changed the behavior. The car would now start easy every morning, and idle right off the bat, BUT - this time things were reversed - once you put it in drive it would start running poor. It is difficult to stop at lights/stop signs, as it would want to die and it is obviously not running on all cylinders. At this point the car's breaking capabilities were also very poor, the pedal was very hard and the car would barely stop without standing on the breaks. All this will gradually get better as the engine gets warmer. I did the carb clean check for vaccuum leaks last weekend and found the bad gasket on one of the runners, and went from there with yesterday's work.

Hope that gives a decent rundown on how things have changed with the different things that has been done.

PS! grump, I got your PM - will do! THANKS!


Ken

ChevyKen

iTrader: (1)

Alright!!

Seems like yesterdays work was very succesful.
The car is now running stronger than it has EVER done. It feels like a complete new engine.

There is only one remaining problem. It is not very willing to let me set the IAC, as it simply won't idle enough for me to get to it.
Also, one additional question regarding setting the IAC - in both the procedure in the Tech Article as well as in grumpygreaseape's description above, there is no telling about at what point do I remove the A+B shortage? After the IAC plug has been pulled but before the engine is started, or at the end after the idle has been set and the IAC connector is plugged in again?

Thanks!!


Ken

grumpygreaseape

poop-sorry man-heres the skinny, once the iac connector is pulled and the key is turned off-its ok to pull the gm special service tool from the aldl-then you can restart and adjust away. cool wit dat?

ChevyKen

iTrader: (1)

Awesome!

Im headed back out again!

Thx,

Ken

grumpygreaseape

32 is egr methinks-didja bugger up the diagnostic switch wire or hopefully left it unplugged thats the only thing i can think of other than bad ecm that could set 32 hard right off the bat- only about 12 bux from GM-fans wont kick till 232 pull the a/c pressure switch on the small a/c hard line that is clamped down along the top of the pass side frame rail its the line that runs fron the evap. to the condenser see the switch 2 wires about 1/2 in. diameter could be hiding under the recovery bottle-that will kick the fan on when it goes open pull theconnector and see what happens

ChevyKen

iTrader: (1)

Just got back from the first "morning-cold-start" run in the car.
It fired right up, and idled immediately.
It drove fine and didn't die at the stoplight, even though I think it was mighty close. When I slowed down towards the light and let go of the throttle, it went way down (below 500rpm), but it didn't die as I put it in neutral and gave it a quick hit. After that it was fine.

The ONLY thing I could not get straight yesterday was the IAC. The car will simply NOT idle at all with the IAC connector unplugged. It will barely start at all. I don't know if that is the reason why the idle is not steady, but rather varying from around 6-650 to 1100rpms. Not that it keeps bouncing up and down constantly, but when you drive and come to a stop, putting it in park or neutral - it is never at the same rpm. It will vary from time to time. I don't know if this is normal or if it has anything to do with my mods or what.

Regarding the code 32, that must have been just a hickup on the initial startup, because it never came back.

I also drove the car around for quite some time yesterday at all kinds of speeds and with hard acceleration etc. - NO ses lights!!

Bottom line is, the car is a LOT more drivable than it was and it is a lot stronger than it was. So THANK YOU all for hanging with me and spending your time and efforts getting this stuff straight. Without your help, I guarantee this car would now either have been put on fire or used as a boat anchor!

Just to summarize the three main problems with the car:
1. Faulty sparkplug caused it to not seat right and thus not seal.
2. Faulty ECM
3. Leaking rear lower runner gasket on drivers side

And, GGA,
I will check the a/c switch today as I'd rather not fry the engine because of overheating at this point, when it is finally running.


Ken

Vader

Ken,

Since this thread is getting so long (and takes forever to load) it might be time to jump to a new thread:

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...threadid=87307