lakeffect2

I've been chasing my tail all summer on this one, and with my limited knowledge can't correct this. On the EBL system, P4

I have a constantly rich motor AFR can be 13.2 down to 11.00 when driving on the highway,the BLM at that point is usually around 170 and VE learn want to add fuel to an already grossly rich situation.


What am I missing here that should have been obvious?

Fouled narrow band?
Air leak at the header gasket?
your ideas welcome as I have no clue here.

Dave , Rochester NY

ULTM8Z

Have you tried swapping the NB O2 sensor to the other side of the engine? With these single O2 systems, sometimes a problem on the O2 side will cause the ECM to adjust the entire engine.

I'm assuming your WB is on the other side of the engine from the NB?

If you swap sides and the readings drastically change, it'll indicate an issue on a particular side.

Also, what happens in open loop on the WB? Does it read your commanded AFR (or close to it)?

Dominic Sorresso

Is it staying in C/L? What is your Water, excuse me, coolant temp. when driving?

lakeffect2

Both O2 sensors are the the same pipe. drivers side, about 90* apart, No purpose in swap as there is nothing in the other side.

Dom, thanks for asking. It seems cold most of the time. has trouble getting over 160 unless I'm sitting at a light. has a 160* thermostat in it. I have a 170* handy, still in the box.

Q "Also, what happens in open loop on the WB? Does it read your commanded AFR (or close to it)?"

A. When it open loop, while warming up, it tends to be grossly lean, above 16-19. no happy medium here.

ULTM8Z

160 seems way too cold for an EFI engine.

It seems like something is restricting fuel flow...

What is your fuel pressure?

What's your injector pulse width showing on the scanner?

Dominic Sorresso

I took my ZR out this week w an outdoor temp of 35F. I had installed a Fluidyne Aluminum radiator this spring because the car would overheat w A/C on with summer temps over 85F. Well, it REALLY REALLY cools the motor down in late fall. Couldn't get Coolant temps above 170F altho it would be at 150F cruising. IOW, it never got into C/L. So logging BLMs is meaningless.

lakeffect2

I'm headed to Autozone for other truck parts. I'll use then heads up display to make surte it's getting out of open loop and into closed.

Rebuilding a Dodge Dakota engine this weekend.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

I believe you're having the same issue I am with my MegaSquirt. The NB is seeing a "false lean" due to the abundance of unburned fuel and oxygen in the exhaust stream. So the ECU is making the rich condition worse trying to correct. Try connecting the WB to the ECU. And go with at least the 170 thermostat or even a 180. You need to make sure the ECU is going into closed loop and the only way to do that is with a hotter thermostat or by changing the settings for closed loop (if possible?).

lakeffect2

My sincere thanks to all taking the time to respond.

A) Fuel pressure is about 46 lbs.

So what I noticed was that it is definitely going into closed loop (CL). I believe I previously lowered the the entry temp to about 140F. Once it hits CL, the initial BLM reading shows 128 as it comes out of OL. From the point it progressively climbs one number about every five seconds to the next number until it gets to about 170 or above.

ULTM8Z

What about the pulse width on the scanner data? The fact that you're so lean in OL seems to indicate a fuel delivery issue. Was it always that lean in OL or did it become that way at the beginning of this issue?

lakeffect2

I'm lean at idle in OL, and rich while rpm's are higher while traveling in closed loop. That would indicatethe opposite to me. Not enough when little is needed, too much when you need more.
The other thing is that even though I meet all the criteria for Highway mode, it might happen within the first minute of closed loop, but not afterward when the BLM went high.

It no longer shows the desired AFR , just pig rich.

Dave

lakeffect2

Got out to my son's repair shop tonight. had a chance to swap in a new Narrow band O2 sensor and 180* thermostat. Made a difference for about 15 miles then went right back to rich 13.5 and risher 1.4. Hitting the pedal takes it into thew 11-10 range.

Dominic Sorresso

Have u done anything w the IAT table?

lakeffect2

I probably have Dom. What areas and directions do you suggest they go?.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Dave, can I take a look at the bin file...?

lakeffect2

Sure! I'm very thankful for your offer. I have no clue as to how to attach it here, Send me a PM with your email address. I'll send it as soon as I see it.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

PM sent...

lakeffect2

Street Lethal, please check your Email. Bin forwarded. Please feel free to post your thoughts, ideas and results here as well, so that others may learn from my mistakes and your insights.

Thanks, Dave

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

I would only make very few changes to the tune, and that is just based on my own tuning preference. The VE table is what is concerning the most though, as the VE in the idle kpa area is flattened in the graph, at the same time appearing to play tug of war with where the IAC steps are controlling and wanting to keep the kpa to hover around in the VE table, so the BLM will read excessively high when Closed Loop is enabled because there is little fuel to compensate in those areas. I will post pictures of your graph so that everyone can contribute ideas, and will share the areas in where I feel a change needs to be made. Note that Closed Loop is triggered to enable at approximately 130-degrees...

First, I would change this setting...;

Open Loop - Idle Lean Limit, change from 14.00 to 13.50...

Second, I would change this setting...;

BLM - Idle Cell RPM Threshold, from 925-RPM to 1200-RPM...

Third, I would also consider a change in the following setting...;

Open Loop - AFR vs RPM vs VAC,

From this...



To this...;



Fourth, I would also consider changing the following (note the extra value in original bin, as at that temp Closed Loop is already enabled)...;

From this...;



To this...;



Lastly is the VE table where I feel is the biggest contributing factor to the high BLM. Idle RPM is set to 900-RPM in the bin with the engine fully warmed up at 176-degrees, but when Closed Loop is enabled at 130-degrees, RPM is set to 1000-RPM. As temps increase, RPM decreases, but when looking at the VE graph you will see why BLM rises as the RPM/kpa settles down...

This is the lower VE table in the bin...;

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Dave, I saved a bin with the above changes and am sending it to you via email. I also smoothed out the lower VE table in certain areas as well in the bin, but be sure to do a quick VE Learn anyway in idle despite that, just to see where the VE wants to pull. Below is a picture of the graph that I smoothed out in comparison with the stock bin graph from the post above. Also, your SA Main Table looks great and is averaging 22.00 SA in your idle area cells, but your SA-Idle State SA is only set to 20.00 degrees, so I went in and changed the SA-Idle State SA to 22.00 degrees for your idle, so it should feel a tad smoother...

lakeffect2

First off, whether it helps or not, my thanks to you for lending a hand and taking the time out of your day to give not only me a hand, but at over 7500 posts, countless others as well.. I doubt any of the big dogs here, yourself included, ever truly get the thanks they deserve for all the contributions they make to further the rest of us along the trail.

So here's one person who says THANK YOU!

I'll post the results after a few days trial.

Dave Buchholz
Rochester NY

lakeffect2

So here are some preliminary answers after a short cruise

First off at start up, in open loop, still very rich 17-18s until close loop kicks in.

Doing a VE learn. Everywhere it learned it maxed out the corrections to 12, no other number showed up, regardless of load or rpm. And there were many places when it was just a yellow indicator, not learning at all. Always under every circumstance wants more fuel until it drowns itself.

Went to the store hot restart went to 19-20 and kept stalling out.

Makes me wonder what value the narrow band is using to determine it's threshold for lean/rich, as compared to what value it should be using. There is no A,I.R.system in place. Did it need compensation for in the Dynamic-EFI EBl 3005 bin for TPI motors?

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

The AIR system is definitely disabled in the bin. The INT rich/lean upper/lower O2 correction threshold averages about 528.00 mVolts. Dave, is there anyway you can send me a datalog .dat file so I can watch what the air/fuel is doing in conjunction with the other data in the WUD...?

Edit: A datalog .dat from cold all the way until 180 degrees would be ideal...

zz17iroc

iTrader: (4)

It seems you have been doing the right things to fix your problem as far as ECM tuning, but you are still having the same issues.

Here is a thought:

You may have an internal vac leak. Meaning the angle of the heads and intake do not match up causing an internal leak in the lifter valley or possible leaks with upper and lower intake itself. Can you control your idle? One of the best ways to find vac leaks is to use a smoke machine, so if you can have a local shop do it that will surly rule out a vac leak.

The reason why I say it's a internal vac leak is because your car is still lean in Open Loop even after Leathal changed the command AFR to a richer setting and cuts off during hot starts because your Open Loop AFR Multiplier vs. ECT is set to zero.

Just a thought!

lakeffect2

Other than the fact that we may get the tail end of a Nor'easter other the next 36 hours, I'll do at data log with your changes as the bin in use. Don't want to get the beast all covered in salt. Weekend looks better for "good" weather.

So I'll do a data log as soon as conditions permit and sent it via email again.

Once again my sincere appreciation.

dave

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

I definitely agree with zz17iroc that it sounds as if it is way lean. The Open Loop air/fuel settings in the bin are commanded not to exceed 13.50 in idle, with a max lean not to exceed 14.00 air/fuel ratio, so something is forcing more air into the engine during Open Loop, or the fueling may be flawed mechanically causing the same effect. The injector flow rate is correct in the bin, as is his cubic inch displacement. Dave, which bin did you start off with, and when you changed your injector flow rate to 32-lbs, did you calculate for the difference of the new flow rate in the Acceleration Enrichment PW tables from the original flow rate that the bin started with?

lakeffect2

I have a typical PCV valve in one cover and a breather in the other side. Wondering if the system sees that as a vacuum leak.

Also,symptoms for bad, open EGR valves are hard starts (got that) and rough idle. (got that too) My son has a smoke machine, been wanting to see how it works. The EGR is of unknown vintage, likely since the dawn of time.

The Original bin was the EBL -P4-3005 bin, stated as being a 5.7liter auto tranny TPI motor. I did not make any changes to the original AE settings, but they always struck me as overactive.

In consideration, I just looked at the EbL-P4-3008 bin. It uses 29lb/hr injectors, similar to my 32's I was looking at the O2 thresholds, and they are vastly different.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

The 3005 bin is a great bin to start with. The original injector flow rate was 22-lb's, and you increased them to 32-lb injectors. At that point you go into these areas...;

AE - Map Filter
AE - TPS Filter

Highlight all of the stock values from top to bottom in each, but first calculate the compensation your going to use by using the initial flow of the original 22-lb injectors and dividing it by the new 32-lb injector flow rate. Go back to the cells you highlighted in those two AE tables, insert multiply in the function box setting, then place the number you got from your calculation into the value box and hit execute, and then save it...

That will at least take care of that change...

From there, we'll watch the WUD whenever you get the chance to datalog, and we'll visually see if it's in the tune, or just a mechanical issue. It's possible the TPS and IAC setting is allowing too much air in, or possible the fueling is skewed, or like already mentioned, a vacuum leak somwehere. I will video the datalog, and throw it up so everyone can see it...

lakeffect2

I'm looked at a data log from last Saturday, before I changed the O2 sensor. I compared it to a few others by running it within the EBL WUD display function. I noticed that the Narrow Band sensor was non-existent upon several occasions in the latest run.

First it never showed up for a few minutes (relating to lean open loop?) When it did, it wasn't there long. It just droped right out to near zero. (4mv not 500mv) Whenever it sputtered back to life, the Wide Band reading seems to go back where it belonged.

So it looks like I may have been right last week in suspecting the O2 sensor, but for the wrong reasons. I was thinking clogged. The new sensor is now in, so a new Data Log will be important to prove whether its signal is even reaching the ECM or if there may be a frayed/shorted wire along the trail.

We'll know soon.

Dave

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

I had same issue as you. When a muffler shop installed a crossover(duals) they neglected to reinstall lock washers on the header collector to ext pipe flange. Stock NB02 sensor was just behind the header collector. 50 miles later it loosened up. BLMs skyrocketed. I will suggest a exhaust leak as a possibility.

Dominic Sorresso

This is so true. I had 2 occasions where I chased a good tune for a year and found out I had a mechanical issue. One occasion was a head gasket that was starting to fail causing the motor to just stall at idle.
The second was tuning using EBL and having fuel being reduced in the cal, especially in decel or trailing throttle situations. One of the mufflers was loose allowing fresh air to be drawn to the O2.
On the plus side, I ended up exploring parts of the calibration I never would have dealt with otherwise. I learned about Prop Gains and O2 sensor windows.

lakeffect2

Thanks guys, This beast IS prone to header gasket issues as well. Maybe that side is overdue for a refresh.

So,first step looks like seeing if the MB O2 sensor shows up in the data log.
If not, hunt for the bad wire.

If so, and the next data log still has issues, hunt for either vacuum and /or exhaust leaks where air is getting in that shouldn't be.

It's snowing an inch per hour at the moment. Weather looks more favorable for a melt this weekend.


As always, my sincere thanks,

Dave Buchholz
Rochester, NY

lakeffect2

Ok here's the first (of many,because I'm long winded) followup. As if by magic the new narrow band O2 sensor showed up in the data stream. That was a good sign.

At the 36* outside, It actually started up... on the first crank... no coughs. no stalls;. didn't stall when popped into gear. Idle stayed up higher and longer than it needed, but that's correctable (easily, I hope)


I had made the AE - Map Filter and AE - TPS Filter corrections that Street Lethal suggested because of my 32lb/hr injectors. Overall AE was by far much better, not dumping into the 10-11's anymore. AE did seem to hang around longer than needed, preventing Highway Mode from enabling at times. Sounds like either duration of AE issues, or sensitivity adding when none is really needed for such small cruising MAP changes.

Doing a VE learn was a little strange though. I saw a few scattered corrections +/- a few points. But it did not like Deleanment (DE) and wanted to add lots there to defeat the whole purpose of deleanment. Maybe I've over looked a previous setting or changed a flagged item so it will prevent it from a VE learn in those area on the maps.

Over all a good day with positive changes. My thanks to all contributors, and hopefully it helps others along the line.

Dave Buchholz
Rochester NY

ownor

iTrader: (5)

So without any changes the NBO2 is showing up now? Might still be a problem with a contact somewhere and come back.
DE can be hard to get correct imho. Maybe you are running into trouble with the minimum fuel that can be delivered i.e. minimum injector pulse width here? Do you have correct data for the injector offsets?
On the header leaks, i've found that copper gaskets and locking bolts make some good friends here

lakeffect2

I've been using the aluminum crush gaskets, but no locking bolts thus far. Also had thre header flanges milled flat to make sure they were flat, as they were far from it on a previous pair.

antman89iroc

So many members have helped and I've tried to return the favor. Glad you took time to say it.

lakeffect2

Came home from the shop last night, noticing that the NB reading stayed relatively straight line, ( not zero, but around approx 600mv range) and rarely did the ECM go into closed loop. Afr reading were likely coming from the open loop table and were in the 12-13 range.
So now I'm wondering either what parameters were not met to go into closed loop, or what other functions kept it out. What stops an ECM from closed loop if the normal time/ temp conditions have been met. I did not see where AE was being invoked unless I stuck my foot into it, and instantly the AFR went to 10.00

antman89iroc

I see in your sig you are running headers. Are you using a heated O2 sensor? I noticed that my car would go in and out of CL when I had the stock sensor. It cools down when in low demand conditions and will exit closed loop. It also took longer to go into CL due to colder sensor temps.

antman89iroc

Also, you mention highway mode and VE learn with odd results. I believe Highway mode must be disabled to get accurate VE learns.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The 600 mV is likely less then the voltage required to go closed loop. Look at this table:

Closed Loop - O2 Upper/Lower Go into Closed Loop

The NB O2 value needs to be either: lower then the lower value, or greater then the upper value. Otherwise the ECM won't go into closed loop. This is to ensure that the O2 sensor is hot and active enough for closed loop operation.

RBob.

lakeffect2

Looked at what the NB was doing on the way home. Still intermittent signal occurring, so first step is check, and likely replace the wire going from the sensor to the ECM. no faith in it.Can't really gauge progress without a consistent signal.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Also check the NB O2 sensor ground signal. It runs from pin E15 to the engine block (sensor signal being pin E14). The O2 input at the ECM is a differential input, it requires both the signal input and the ground input to operate.

A 1-wire and 3-wire NB O2 sensor uses the sensor body as the signal ground.

RBob.

lakeffect2

Thanks, I was literally just about to walk out the door, and decided to check my email first. Your comment was well timed. Thank you.

Dave

ownor

iTrader: (5)

Imho it will just drop out of VE Learn when enterin HiWy Mode.. in order to get more results tho, it's best to disable it when tuning.

Dave let us know what you find on the pins of the NBO2 at your ECU.

JP86SS

iTrader: (1)

I would change/clean the plugs before too long to verify the burning is good.
I've had exhaust leaks that caused the rampant rich condition and it would not clean the plugs just by fixing the exhaust. Had to pull each one and clean them before results got better.
Remember that the sensor reads oxygen, not AFR.
Misfire from too much fuel will also cause lean reading and add fuel.
Bad plug wire shorting to header can wreak havoc as well. (check in the dark)
HTH

antman89iroc

Yes, btdt with plug wires shorting. I have all my boots insulated. Btw I noticed in the dark my coil will emit an aura between the inner coil and the outer frame. I wrote this off as a characteristic of the E type coil. Do you think this may be a problem? (Sorry to jack the thread) could be relevant here as well.

lakeffect2

Thanks for the reminder, sometimes I overlook some fairly basic stuff.

Not a bad Idea to check it in the dark.

Antman, not a hijack... it's all good.

Visible Aura. Might be an issue unless it looks like your grandfather's portrait on the mantel.

antman89iroc

Lol ok maybe a better description would be a plasma? There is a blue glow in the gap of the E frame. If I saw pops there would be bigger issues than my tune! I know he'd just say go fishing and the solution would come to me.