rickybobby302

Ok so first off I like simplesity, I am new to motor swaps for a vehicle. I'm pretty mechanically inclined but haven't done much deep in-depth stuff besides rebuilding of a jetski motor in the living room. The simple rebuilding of carbs and replacing of transfer cases. I want to go from a 2.8 with a t5 to the ls2 and t56 for my 86 rs. I've done some research alto I suck at it. I plan on getting the motor &trans with everything out of an 04 to 06 gto from wait for it, eBay. I know I know. Plan on getting kits for oilpan, 1⅞ longtube headers, motor mounts& trans mount from brp. I know I need to upgrade the fuel system and a v8 radiator. New rear. Not sure about drive shaft tho. Kit says the stock won't work. Currently on deployment starting this when I get home in Nov-Dec. But want to get as much helpful info as I can before I just start buying things. I did find a bracket for the dbw pedal. Can I use the t5 clutch system or with slight mods. I know my guages won't work properly hopefully I might be able to graft some gto guages into it. Not worried about emissions. But what to do with the o2 sensors. Also throwing in a nice choppy cam.

rickybobby302

Also I've been reading about this thing called vats, and that I may have issues with it

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I've gotten 3 LS/trans drop-outs from eBay.

The GTO package requires some changes to the oil pan and shifter. (And '04 is LS1, not LS2.)

What rear?

What "kit" says the driveshaft won't work?

The T5 hydraulics will work, I believe, but I don't have any direct experience with it (on my one T56 swap, I used 4th gen pedals and hydraulics).

VATS is just a matter of PCM programing, of which you're going to have to do some, anyway.

Thank you for your service to our country.

Veaceonee

iTrader: (1)

Here is a good write up on a T5 to T56 conversion.

http://www.skulte.com/T56.html

R13_Braz

I used a new T5 master, and used Russell quick-disconnects with a 36" braided steel line. A lot longer than it needed, but I ran the line through the inside of the car and I'm glad I got the longer line... Had to pull my motor, and instead of having to disconnect the lines from the master/slave, I just pulled the excess length through the hole in the tunnel and pull the trans back.

rickybobby302

Thanks guys for the replies. I've kinda scraped this idea and now I'm looking for something else a lil simpler, may cost a lil more in the long run but owell its a toy and if I'm going to do it then I'm going to buy the right parts to handle it. I'm now looking at all new 406 carbed with a t56. All new.

rickybobby302

ok so ive desided for the last time to just drop a 406 in ive already got a quote for the motor. im having issues finding motor mounts tho I would prefer solid.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Why in the world would you want solid motor mounts? Entirely unnecessary for your set up and just transfers more NVH into the car.

rickybobby302

this is also my first motor swap. so im still having issues finding polly motor mounts. car currently has a v6.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Stock V8 engine mounts with adapter plate (to position engine), or a K-member with LS1 mounts built in with stock LS1 Camaro engine mounts.

rickybobby302

Thanks. Now do I really want to get a trans crossmember with or without a torque arm. I can't remember if I currently have one or not. I'm still deployed and plan on ordering all this like the day before I leave, about 20 days.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

That is up to you. I think it is beneficial to divorce the torque arm so I would get a remote mount on the crossmember. Problem is all those designs are flat and push the exhaust way down low. You could just deal with it and scrape the ground OR.....

A) Holley just announced they have a new design with a double hump for exhaust clearance. It releases end of this week. Nobody has experience with it yet so you might hold off a bit or be an early Guinea pig.

B) Use a mid-length torque arm that has its own cross bar that you weld up. BMR track-pack and the Hawks Sinister are two that come to mind.

C) Use a short arm that mounts to floor pan, like the Jegster. It is for drag strip and will upset the balance of the car when braking hard.

D) Use a de-coupled arm for road racing by Unbalanced Engineering. I would stay away from the Global West design. It will eventually break through the floor pan and can't handle hard launches.

rickybobby302

I saw one on hawks that was the trans crossmember and arm in one so what's the cons of just not having one in general. For now until I replace the rear with a Moser 9.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Cons? Not much. You just won't get as good traction and it won't feel as tight. It also places more load on the trans tail housing but it will survive with street tires.

rickybobby302

Alright I'll just delete it until I get a new rear and then I'll get the adjustable torque arm that mounts to the crossmember. I'll be running only street tires on the stock rear. Don't think it will hold up long still tho.

WTR388

If you do an 8.8 rear swap out of a mustang you can use a maximum motorsports torque arm and modify it to bolt to the floor of the car (simple modification, there is a thread on LS1tech), and that will handle the power as well... But then you're also building a rear, which also means you're going to have to buy axle shafts since, like me you're stuck with 26 splines. (I was planning an 8.8 build up until this bit of info showed up).

I'm using my stock T5 Master, a stock LS1/T56 line from a 4th gen that I drilled the restriction out of and it works great. I had to modify the T5 master to accept the 4th gen line, but again it was super simple and it has worked great with my LS7 clutch... Get a remote bleeder line before you put the trans on the motor (you'll be thankful you spent the $40 or whatever it cost).

I used Hawks motor mounts and kept the stock rubber bushings in the LS1 clamshells, but I think I'm going to change that to poly. And I used the Hawks double hump trans cross member for exhaust clearance (the lowest part on my car aside from the diff are my sub frame connectors). I don't think it would be too hard to make up a torque arm mount on the trans cross member.

One thing I've learned, once you start to fab your own stuff, you really start to enjoy it... And if you piece things together right, it can come out better and cheaper.

rickybobby302

Are you saying that my t5 master lines won't work with the hyd throwout bearing. ( figured I would go with that instead of a fork and all because I was getting the trans separate from the Bell and clutch. All new from summit ) and I wasn't to sure what all I actually needed on the trans to get the clutch to disengage and reengage

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Both 3rd gen and 4th gen cars use hydraulic clutch. The lines to transmission are not interchangeable though. The thing that makes you upgrade the clutch master cylinder is whether or not you can move enough fluid volume to reliably operate the clutch.

You ordered a 406 so it is a given you'll be making some power and will be using a beefy clutch. You'll need to move more fluid than the stock master can handle. You'll find different methods that people try to salvage stock parts, but the one way that ALWAYS works is a 4th gen "Tick" brand master cylinder for T56 trans (it comes with the lines). Just get the Tick and don't worry about anything from then on. You spend so much money on the trans and clutch that the Tick is cheap insurance.

WTR388

The LS style T56 uses an internal slave, it pushes directly on the pressure plate, not like the LT style T56 that uses an external slave with a fork design.

The hydraulic hose for the LS slave is entirely different than the T5 or the LT style. The LS line has a quick disconnect fitting at the slave side. It's a super simple system, and to modify the T5 master, basically take an appropriate sized grinding stone on your dremel and deepen the opening for the line so your LS line can go in far enough you can squeeze the retaining pin in to hold it, but don't remove so much material that the pin doesn't force the fitting seal against the master... There is a write up on here on how to do it, I figured I would try it before I spent the money on a tick master (if I buy parts, I typically upgrade, instead of using a stock part, which in this case would be a 4th gen master, but then you have to mess around with the shaft connection at the pedal, which also isn't overly difficult aside from messing around on your back, upside down under the dash which isn't much fun, especially if your back is as messed up as mine from carrying your ruck for a few years).

If you use the hawks mounts and cross member your stock drive shaft works just fine.

Edit: QwkTrip replied as I was typing this out, notice the Tick master that we both mentioned. Had my T5 master not worked, that was my next step and is something I will be upgrading to eventually.

rickybobby302

565hp to the fly and 525ftlb. OK sold on the tick I'll buy a new one from summit. What mods do I need to use it. Different mounting position. Change of hookup on the clutch pedal. I do have a mig welder I can use.

rickybobby302

I think I could only find one side for the mounts. I'll look again.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Tick bolts straight on to the firewall. There is a rod that connects to a pin on the clutch pedal. The only thing you'll need to sort out is getting the right pin size for the rod. The 3rd gen pin is shorter and larger diameter.

There is a writeup somewhere on this site about how to modify the original pedal with really inexpensive parts from a hardware store. Other option is to install 4th gen clutch and brake pedals, and there is another write up on that somewhere on this site too.

I went with 4th gen pedals because it improves the position of the pedals, and the clutch has an assist spring to lighten the clutch when sitting in traffic. Also removes any doubt whether the clutch travel is correct.

3rd gen pin on clutch pedal.


4th gen pin on clutch pedal. Caliper is still set at the 3rd gen pin size.

rickybobby302

The trans is the american powertrain tremic t56 magnum

rickybobby302

Alright I'll go to a pick your part and ****** out a set of pedals if that have a stick in there. Think I read that the 4thgen driveshaft was stronger also and a direct bolt in.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

I don't know about power ratings of driveshafts, but yes, 4th gen driveshaft will drop in.

The back half of these cars is nearly identical so suspension and torque arms are also interchangeable. 4th gen fuel tank pops right up in our cars and gives you instant conversion to LS1 fuel system. You have to work out a few adaptors to fuel line and fuel gauge, but it is quite easy.

Advantages:

* Gives you access to all the 4th gen fuel system aftermarket goodies.
* Plastic fuel tank doesn't rust
* Eliminates fuel starvation or need for baffling in the fuel tank because the 4th gen tank has a little bucket of fuel that the pump sits in and it doesn't go dry.
* Contains the fuel pressure regulator
* Contains the charcoal canister

You can use the stock fuel tank just fine too. Just have to take a little different approach to fuel delivery.

rickybobby302

I'll keep that in mind but plan on running an external fuel pump 120gph at 6.5psi is what was recommended so gut the in tank pump and just run a line to the bottom. I'll also be doing the pump hatch I can get latches like they use on aircraft. I'm also running no ac and an electric vacuum pump for the breaks. Are the wheel bolt patterns the same. Is that rear stronger?

rickybobby302

What is this good for

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Helps with raw gas smell. Cars without emissions equipment have a stink, you know.

WTR388

4th gen rear is essentially no stronger, it's a touch wider and has better brakes... I worry about mine behind my stock LS1. Bolt pattern is identical.

Why an electric pump for the brakes? The stock LS1 (was on an f-body) vacuum line from the intake fit right on to my fitting for the brake booster.

rickybobby302

Like my 78 Ford. So this canister is for a fuel vent? I dont think I'll have a return line.

rickybobby302

The gen1 406 I'm getting with such a large cam that the vac would be so erratic that it wouldn't be feesable. Recommended stall if I was running an auto is 28 to 3200rpm.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

You'll blow up the 3rd gen and 4th gen rear axle. Those axles are just a temporary thing until you buy the 9", so I think it really comes down to which wheels you want to use long term. Get whatever axle fits the wheels you want so you can drive until you get the 9". 4th gen style has more selection of nice looking wheels to buy.

I have 3rd gen axle width and the wheel selections suck for our cars. I am going to have to spend thousands of dollars to have wheels made. That buys a lot of axle!

rickybobby302

I'm redoing som oem iroc wheels. The 406 is not stock. Large cam I'll post specs in a sec. Forged pistons and what not. I'm buying it from skip white. The 406 stage 3

rickybobby302

PART # 186755-10

VALVE LIFT WITH 1.5 ROCKERS : INT .600 / EXT .580
DURATION IN DEGREES : ADVERTISED - INT .400 / EXT .387
DURATION @0.050" : INT .251 / EXT .255
LOBE SEPARATION ANGLE : 110º

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

So 16x8 wheels with stock 3rd gen offset? If so, then just stay with the 3rd gen axle temporarily.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

What a minute... is this a small block 406? This is the LSx section of the forum.

rickybobby302

Yea bought on eBay entire set seem straight for now. Strip the gray paint, sanded them smooth took off the casting ridges so its smooth and shinny. And repainted what was gray, black. Alot of work but it looks damn good. And cheaper than buying aftermarket. I can see myself and count fingers.

rickybobby302

Yes. I did want to use the ls2 at first but got away from that and decided to not make a new thread. Sorry

WTR388

Yeah, when he said 406, I thought he meant 408 (what some guys call the 6L truck engines)...
In which case, if you want a T56, you will used an LT style T56 with their external slave set up... I can't remember how guys were setting the hydraulics on them, but I think they used the T5 master and good results with a Cavalier/Sunbird slave... Something like that.

The LT style T56 needs a Gen II (one piece rear main) I do believe.

rickybobby302

I called summit a week or 2 back and told them what I was mating it up to I'm getting the American powertrain tremic t56 magnum. Part number that ends in 09. This comes without a bell so I'm buying a bell also from summit

rickybobby302

I called summit a week or 2 back and told them what I was mating it up to I'm getting the American powertrain tremic t56 magnum. Part number that ends in 09. This comes without a bell so I'm buying a bell also from summit

MoJoe

iTrader: (5)

That looks like a well engineered option, but has been discontinued. You might be able to talk them into fabbing another, but not at the "mass produced" discounted rate.

rickybobby302

When I buy the new rear I'll end up getting the one attached to the trans crossmember