morrow

Ok , so like the headline says.... Wide fender with custom made suspension. It's been a long while sence I've bean on here... I have researched for a few years and slowly made the parts from scratch to widen the front track of our cars.. To go wide fender means wider wheel... But that also means your scrub radius is altered in correctly... So I figured the best thing to do was stretch the front end and make it wider.. I built a set of custom coil overs from scratch and a set of camber plates and a set of chromoly lower a arms. Stretching the front end and widening the front track by just under 4 inches.

morrow

Custom made hood louvers available . Just need a few people who want them











Wide fender front and rear





Custom made scratch built front suspension wrapped in PAC racing coils

morrow

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/fabr...rack-need.html

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/susp...coilovers.html

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/susp...ing-wider.html

morrow

Let me know whatcha think! Any other ideas?

SlickTrackGod

Hi Morrow, Have you had the car on turnplates to see how the ackerman is working with the new tie rod geometry? Curious to know if you took before and after readings of ackerman angles with the 71" track width and then the 73" track width.

Most cars at 20* inside steering angle will have aprox 18* outside steering angle. You have a lot going on in the way of changes in front end geometry. basically you just completely re configured the entire 3rd gen platform as we knew it into a new animal that needs to be tested. Hit or miss? time and geometry will tell the tale.

Good luck and I am curious where this all comes in chart wise. Do you have the rear setup for roll understeer? If so then the wider track will create even more of a need for an increase in ackerman as well as an increase in positive toe angles to compensate for slip angles. Just driving the car once aligned will tell you if a wheel is dragging scuff just by the presence or lack of noise as the steering angle is increased.

I am currently loking for a project car to tear apart for my Mini Cooper project. Why I am stating this is I will be getting into much the same thing building a front end configuration completely out of scratch matching a mid engine RWD platform I am stealing out of an Import FWD car. Once the rear is set into place with track width and wheel base to centerline of tire footprints, I will then calculate how much rear steer angle (if any) the rear end will produce dynamically in about 2* roll (a very lightweight car, going for 1800lbs wet with me in it) I will then calculate a 100' turning radius off the lateral centerline of rear steer axle line and then vector it up to the inside and outside fronts to get the degrees with the inside front at 20*. I will have a lighter weight car with very wide tires - thus I will not see high slip angles of the traction footprints.In my case (Unlike yours) I will not need excessive tor out conditions in ackerman steering to compensate for chassis weight and large track widths. just food for thought for you, I admire your courage and zest for re engineering the platform seeking something possibly better for your enjoyment. The car will certainly favor longer road courses, not so much autox where the extra track will hurt transition angles.

morrow

Hey slicktrAck .

I'm glad you responded to this. I have not got it on to asset of pads yet unfortunately , but I just got the setup in last weekend so I still have a lot to work on. As of right now the front sway bar is not hooked up right now due to the fact that I still need to put mounting point an the control arms . It is however still incredibly planted still.... I will be doing the front sway bar today and hopefully will have the 4th gen rear end in to try to compensate for the front end width. It does however steer like a dream but I have not really ripped on it yet because I wor like to get the sway bar hooked up and do a coue alterations with the mounting hardware first. I'll deffenently keep you posted with what I find but so far it phenomenal.👍😈

plum92_camaro

Looking good! I'd love to have a set of wider fenders to be more accommodating to bigger tires. Your fenders are the first ones I've seen that I think look good.

morrow

Thank you very much. There is a lot of houres in those fenders . Appretiate the support .

SlickTrackGod

Just for educational purpose- here's a very primitive sketch I just did to show the relation of Ackerman. What people tend to not consider is "rear steer". If you follow the lateral axis of the rear wheels 50feet to the left of the LR tire footprint, you have to consider if the car produces rear axle steer by use of roll understeer settings (in this case. You could also have roll oversteer if set differently, or neutral steer) The red line is the corrected lateral angle if roll understeer is produced.

For the fronts, you then draw paths to the center footprints of those wheels and make the steering angle exactly 90* perpendicular to those imaginary intersects.

The last factor involved is the aprox weight factor of the vehicle combvined with tire width and structure. Generally a light car with wide no tread slicks will have less tire tread 'slip angle" until reating loss of tration point then a heavier car with thinner tires. A heavier car with thinner or treaded tires 9or both) will weight the footprint and have much greater slip angle of the tread until loss of traction- thus a heavier car can generally use a little more toe increase in Ackerman steering angles then a lighter wider tire car.

In other words, if the left front is 20* angle (only for example), and the RF is 18*, you may want to gain the LF to 20.1-20.4 range based on weight and tire choice (keeping the RF at 18*. This is all done in chassis design and geometry length of the steering system in relation to the suspension length geometry.

There is a LOT of trial and error in making a new platform chassis. Testing, testing, testing. A lot of tires and a team of people gaining telemetry. Mostly tire temps via a pyrometer and chassis tweaking of suspension along the way while trying to fudge the steering geometry with shims etc changing ackerman and bump. Once I get my Mini project track worthy, it will probably take me a year of testing and then re configuring, then testing again, etc etc to get it where it needs to be.

SlickTrackGod

A final note- The "wider" the tires you put onto a car the more critical all of this is.

Things will work decent and show gains on low speed autox type racing, BUT, you get a car on a high speed road course and you will show braking issues in tracking, scrub issues in turning, and straight line tracking issues in acceleration- all the while wearing out the tires much faster then it things were tracking properly. In other words, be prepared to eat tires if it is not right.

I warned Pablo about this years ago. He will not admit things and thinks he for some reason is superior to my knowledge even though I spent many nights on the phone and internet teaching him stuff back then, but he has worked so hard in recent years after the fact trying to correct his ackerman with those wide 315's. Car was fast at the tight courses but he was plowing so hard he could damn near go full throttle out of the apex with it tight as hell at full lock due to the massive tires he had scuffing grip. I witnessed this in person. (matter of fact it was the day of my avatar picture probably 8 or 9 years ago. at AdamsMotorsportsPark)

morrow

Your very right . Just for fun canyon carving this thing is already an animal. But it's far from perfect. The alignment was done with a string and a tape measure lol so yea .... I think it's close.... But yet so far..... Really would like to figure out its scrub radius and get the camber and toe set now that I have the sway bar set up now.... It's honestly rides like a dream In The front end. I can't wait to have it all dialed in and I'm sure it will handle much better still and ride nicer also.



Question.... A buddy of mine builds rear ends for many racing applications and he does amazing work... We were spitballing and I came up with the idea of adding a little camber to the rear end... Just a degree or two.... Which he can build into the rear end that we ulametly plan on building for this car... Thoughts?

SlickTrackGod

Street car with lots of freeway driving? No

A track car? Yes by all means. I would put exactly 1* into it. Any more and your acceleration and braking will start to suffer.

morrow

My thoughts exactly lol . It is a street car , but purpose built to eat almost everything one the street for lunch in a corner... Not a daily driver ... Just a weekend warrior .. Fun toy that I'll run the track here and there also.. Basically... The ultMate street car ...

blyth18md

So the hood louvers are custom? They look familiar.

sailtexas186548

iTrader: (2)

they look similar to the new corvette hood louvers, but not the exact same

morrow

Yes the louvers are custom made. I designed them to fit the factory hood... The idea was a mix from the corvette c6r and the zl1 camaro ... If anyone is interested in them I would be happy to make more

morrow

Hey slicktrAck , what is your thoughts for an alignment? Idk where to start and I have way to much neg camber

SlickTrackGod

I just first got your PM and messaged you back. Call me right now if you can, easier to just talk about this stuff over the phone

morrow

Thanks a lot ��

blyth18md

This seems like an interesting duo, dean with all the crazy ideas, and morrow who ain't afraid to chop sh*t up. I think i'll follow this thread.

SlickTrackGod

He did it on his own, give him credit. I am just helping with advice on adjusting everything and helping him troubleshoot it. Afterall, we live close enough I could have him run by my place if it is needed.

As for crazy? Naw, just inventive and imaginative to see things most others do not in 3d movement of 20 things at once.

Just for the record, I built a new car this year to race professionally. I have won 4 of 5 races, the last one this Saturday night in front of 8000 fans @ Toyota Speedway. (first race I lost a wheel and DNF'd while a 2/3rds a lap lead). This is a massive class with people running it for many years now. I walked in and am dominating so badly they do not know what to think or do next. They made me start back of the pack and I was in the lead 23cars passed in 5 1/2 laps of a 30 lap race- cleanly I might add, with no power steering either and a broken brake booster in my Joe Dirt neon. This car is already paid for and then some with prize money from winning.

So yes, I am that good(Arrogant maybe? but if it is easy then why isn;t anyone of the other 31 cars even close to me?) NASCAR officials have gone through my car tooth and nail after each race and I am 100% legal in the rule book. Here is the first 15 laps before the half time break for driver change- I drove both legs but lead the entire second half to win while driving 8/10th to just save the car for another day.

My point of this? You have to have ideas and always be innovative. I sit and stare at things until ideas pop into my head, then I check to see if they fall legal under rules.

This is Joe Dirt Neon ('98 Dodge neon Semi-Hemi )

morrow

Thank you for the one words and support . And thank you dean for all of your help along the way..

morrow

I just want also say. There is no cutting involved.. Everything I have made bolts straight into the factory locations... That was a big thing I was focusing on as well

morrow

Dean has bean a huge help through the years of developing this setup. I know to most people he comes of as crass and erogant. The fact is he knows what he's talking about . I have learned a lot from him through this , so thank you for everything dean

morrow

Hahahaha the video is awesome lol plows allot though huh

SlickTrackGod

There is only so much you can do with a completely stock front wheel drive car with drum rear brakes and an open differential. But that the rules

morrow

I feel ya lol is there any other classes you can go into to be able to modify the suspension ?

SlickTrackGod

THe suspension is modified, its just stock parts modified. THis is like adult go-kart tracking. Everyone should experience this. Racing at its most fun (thrill and pocket book wise) You do not have to stress over someone hitting your car. Matter of fact iy is encouraged. Nothing else realy has a crowd and prize money unless you talk Ferrari's at Rolex...too rich for my blood. I have acquaintances that have spent 25 million dollars on racing (their own money) and never hit the bigtime. Takes money to get exposure. What I am racing is pretty much a circus side show... but it is fun and cheap and we pack the grandstands. Go out to a NASA event with Camaros, Firebirds and Mustangs and see a crowd of 12 people. most everyone there is part of a team. No money in that and basically the same level of performance of what I am doing on with more open space- takes less talent.

I would not race NASCAR. Bunch of whinny drivers with too much money form mommy and daddy all out there running into eachother like brats. I just do this because it is convenient for me when I am up there running the Truck team. NASCAR is boring to watch, only fun when invested in the pits with personal effort. My driver this year is not the fastest thing on the planet but we are having fun never the less. Ronnie is a fun guy to be around the track with- everyone loves him.

I am more of a road race person, not circle track. That is why when they touted these "Night of Destruction Enduro mini road races I got into it. Makes for a little fun and a paycheck.

THe car is quite altered, but again, it is what you do to it setting wise and manipulation, not always what you just bolt on. On a serious note, I am probably one of the only people out there that is 100% legal under the rule book. Everyone seeks those V-Tec cars and have cams and long tube headers which are illegal technically. They all seek power but cant use it other then the front straight because we do not have locking differentials. They just don't get it. It is all about tire footprints.

There is a lot of people in this world that can drive (time trials) but not a lot that can actually "race". Driving a race course solo, and racing against other people is quite different. Watch how fast I 'race" and pass people on a very tight course WITHOUT ever running into anyone. That my friend is skill. I spent 3 days repairing my car that my co driver bashed the crap out of last race ramming everyone- he won, but dented every panel on the car, caught the brakes on fire, bent the LR hub permanently, and broke the steering rack ramming others out there trying to pass people. Yes he won, but the car suffered greatly. Two others on my team race also, both win a lot of the skid plate races but rarely podium with 4 wheels. I try to help all 3 of them but they tear stuff up. After my race? the car is still perfect and I am consistently faster lap times then all three of them. They will never beat me, though they think someday they have hope....

morrow

That does sound like fun. I totally agree .. Running against the clock and against another driver is way different

morrow

Well just a little idea where I'm going on this build.. Going with fluorescent orange or yellow 6pot brembo brakes . 19 x10.5 wheels . And magnetic grey ford color code j7 already have the paint just need to finish the body work. So it can go off to paint. Rebuilding a new sport out of carbon fiber which will now be the full width of the rear of the car instead of the first one which was the width of the hatch, it will also be an inch lower due to the added width. Will also build a front splinter that is removable for street driving and a rear defuser. Next on the list as of now is putting in the new 4th gen rear end to bring the wheels out in the rear to match the front end, which is about 3.75 inches wider than stock
W

morrow

I'm surprised nobody is into this lol

RedLeader289

iTrader: (2)

I only just saw the thread lol. Looks like you've put alot of work it, good job. custom suspension is always impressive to me (well done custom suspension that is lol).

Just a side note - I noticed a fair amount of rust coming up under your driver side hood pin. If you plan on keeping that hood I'd take the pin covers off and reinstall after cleaning the rust out, etc.

morrow

I really appreciate the positive input. The hood latches are aero catch flush hood laches. It's just surface run on the outside but your right. I need to clean the rust off and seal the metal . What kind of stuff are your working on

IROCgiraffe

iTrader: (3)

Post more info on those LED turn signals. Lots of custom work on the suspension!

RedLeader289

iTrader: (2)

I've always liked those

At the moment not much, tackling some distributor problems lol.

morrow

the led lights in the turn signal spot are no longer turn signals. They are driving slash fog lights 144watt led . The turn signals got moved to where the high beams would be. And the high and low beams are built into the projectors which are where the low beam is

IROCgiraffe

iTrader: (3)

Thanks

RedLeader289

iTrader: (2)

huh. don't think I've ever seen anyone do that! do you have pictures of the lights on? i'm interested to see what the turn signals next to the low beams look like.

morrow

I'll get some pics. I slit up the harnes so when the running lights are on its white and when it's in turn mode it flashes amber. I'll see if I can get some pics

AM91Camaro_RS

Nice work morrow!

morrow

Thank you much

compted

This is really cool would be interested to hear how it preforms on the track.

frank farace

im interested in those hood louvers btw ill pm you with my phone #
great job on control arms looks like those are nice parts

frank farace

cant figure out how to pm morrow 702-326-4815 call anytime im interested in louvers and control arms as well thanks franko

morrow

Hey sorry I just got this lol I'll text you

Zach/90\irocZ

iTrader: (6)

Looking good bro
Car came along way lol

morrow

thanks buddy! How you been

morrow

plum92_camaro

When does production on that front splitter start? I'm writing the check right now!!! I like the rear diffuser and spoiler. I'd be interested to see a little more on the spoiler and splitter.

morrow

I'm currently working on getting it into production. I'm working with a manufacturer right now . I just need a group initial buy in. As for the diffuser, I can make it to any dimension you need for the most part. . The set up I'm running requires a lot of exhaust modifications. Mine is a blown defuser which means the exhaust blown into the air stream. The splitter I have , I made from scratch ... If I can get enough people ready to buy one then I can start production. Each one will weigh about 5 lb or less and will be 100% carbon fiber , very well made peice .. Cost for each splitter will be between 800 and 1000 ... Keep in Mind this is a fully functional part designed specifically for aerodynamic performance gains... It's not a air dam added to the bumper, it's 69x34 inches and is molded to the factory 92 body graffics .