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Old 08-09-2002, 01:24 PM   #1
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Have any of you heard about the new OBD-3 system coming out???

There's talk about when the new OBD-3 system comes out it will be almost impossable to get away with performance up grades that don't meet smog requirements. The system will have benifits also like self diagnosis, the capabilities of controling each cyclinder seperatly, these are some of it's good points. Theres one major bad point that will be installed into the system. Smog tests will no longer be performed on OBD-3 equiped vehicles, instead the vehicles computer will moniter how much emissions the vehicle is putting out and if it exceeds the maximum allowed it will set off the vehicles check light. So when your vehicle needs a smog test the technician simply hooks a scanner up to computer and makes sure that no codes have been set off and that the computer is functioning as it should be. But wait I haven't even gotten to the worst part yet. Just like our cars now if something goes bad on them they usually set off a check engine light but on the new OBD-3 systems whenever a check engine light is set off the computer sends a signal to the nearest cell phone tower containing your vehicle I.D. number straight to DMV. DMV then in turn sends you a letter in the mail saying you have 30 days to get it fixed If you let it go beyond the 30 days you will then recieve another letter saying you have 10 days to fix it or they will suspend your license. How's this for technology!!!
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Old 08-09-2002, 02:13 PM   #2
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Hmmmmm, I think that no matter what Detroit throws at us, there will always be modifications we can make.

Some SEMA member will come up with a way to reprogram the computer without tripping anything.

They said the same things about OBDII when it came out. Everybody was running around with their hands in the air, saying that there was going to be no way to modify the computer.

There may be no way to modify OBD III NOW, but that doesn't mean that after the big companies get their hands on a setup, there won't be things they can do.

Trust in the aftermarket, and the buying power of 20 million young guys willing to spend (throw away?) $400+ on a computer mod. Nothing's impossible.
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Old 08-09-2002, 03:30 PM   #3
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Heard that the main chip will be hard wired in the ECM and be a flash once deal, that simply cannot be reflashed in any way-shape-or form.
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Old 08-09-2002, 04:30 PM   #4
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There really starting to crack down on emissions. I think that if there is a way to get around it it's going to be really difficult.
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Old 08-09-2002, 05:02 PM   #5
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people invented it, people can hack it.
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Old 08-09-2002, 08:49 PM   #6
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Originally posted by Morley
Heard that the main chip will be hard wired in the ECM and be a flash once deal, that simply cannot be reflashed in any way-shape-or form.
The manufacturers won't let this happen. A buddy with a new GMC truck has had the dealership "reflash" his PCM 3 times to fix driveabilty problems. Crap happens, and I don't think GM will allow an expensive compter to be "non-flashable" to fix a bug in the software (which happens more often than people think).
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Old 08-09-2002, 09:05 PM   #7
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Detroit is run by the EPA and lawmakers, its a sorry truth.
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Old 08-10-2002, 12:06 PM   #8
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Detroit is run by the EPA and lawmakers, its a sorry truth.
Yes, but when it affects a polictian - things happen. Back in the early 70s the automakers initally had to compy with a law requiring "buzzers" that stayed on UNTIL you buckled up your seat belt.

Once the "law makers" found out it affected/annoyed them too, they changed the law to allow it to function as it does today (buzz for a few seconds and then only leave the light on).

Trust me, once some Congressman finds out that to get a driveability issue fixed is going to cost him $500-$1,000 to replace an OBD III PCM, they will come back to reality.

Besides, it won't affect me. I know my OBDI system now that I know it inside and out, and I have no plans on selling my car. There is no new car that really "excites me" now that the F-body is dead.

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Old 08-10-2002, 12:14 PM   #9
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Yes, but when it affects a polictian - things happen. Back in the early 70s the automakers initally had to compy with a law requiring "buzzers" that stayed on UNTIL you buckled up your seat belt.

Once the "law makers" found out it affected/annoyed them too, they changed the law to allow it to function as it does today (buzz for a few seconds and then only leave the light on).

I remember the '70's well, do you remember the ever popular "passive restraints"? How many years were we plagued with them? Detroit is very good about going ahead with dumb ideas and using their hind sight to "correct" their mistakes.
Make no mistake, big brother is watching you, but not watching out for you There are things being considered for OBD III that would really make your hair stand on end, and there are things in newer cars that would make you paranoid, if you knew they were there.
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Old 08-10-2002, 12:18 PM   #10
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I remember the '70's well, do you remember the ever popular "passive restraints"? How many years were we plagued with them?
1972-1975 IIRC. I was 20 then.
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Old 08-10-2002, 12:29 PM   #11
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Make no mistake, big brother is watching you, but not watching out for you There are things being considered for OBD III that would really make your hair stand on end, and there are things in newer cars that would make you paranoid, if you knew they were there.
I have worked with computers since 1975 and EVERY security/protection technique ever invented has been broken. I remember CDs as being "impossible to copy". And now their are DVD burners.

I remember back in the late 80s when people were saying "You can't modify the new cars (then) with ECMs. You can change the chip, but you can't change the settings so you modify the engine like the good old days".

Now you have guys like me hacking those "unmodifiedable" ECMs and even re-writing the source code.

The way I look at it; nothing is IMPOSSIBLE, difficult yes, but impossible no.

Difficult = $$$$$ to be made.
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Old 08-10-2002, 12:40 PM   #12
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As far as I know there aren't any cables with OBDIII either. I heard it was IR.

Well if they start doing that BS then I'm gonna buy a barn and start hording early '90s GM cars and trucks.

I agree with Nick. If someone made it, then someone will hack it. Like the "uncopy-able" Microsoft games. It was just a huge target for hackers...almost a challenge.
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Old 08-10-2002, 12:53 PM   #13
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Well if they start doing that BS then I'm gonna buy a barn and start hording early '90s GM cars and trucks.
Good idea. Except for those people in California where they have smog *****, people will either just swap out there engines/PCMs and swap either an OBD I engine/ECM if they have too.

Why do you guys keep electing politicians that do this? We had a government that started acting like that, and we booted them out. Time to start sending those type of politicians to the Unemployment Office.
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Old 08-10-2002, 01:27 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by Glenn91L98GTA
Why do you guys keep electing politicians that do this? We had a government that started acting like that, and we booted them out. Time to start sending those type of politicians to the Unemployment Office.
Haha! Blame the Americans!

Just kidding guys, we love you!
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Old 08-10-2002, 05:43 PM   #15
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Why do you guys keep electing politicians that do this? We had a government that started acting like that, and we booted them out. Time to start sending those type of politicians to the Unemployment Office.
Because no matter who you vote for, the special interest groups and big business will always get their "boy" into office where he can do what THEY want and what they pay him to do.

Good luck with playing with OBD III, I think your best bet with that will be to replace it with a more "user friendly" system, until the smog police catch up with you.
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Old 08-10-2002, 06:39 PM   #16
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Because no matter who you vote for, the special interest groups and big business will always get their "boy" into office where he can do what THEY want and what they pay him to do.
I thought you lived in a democracy? Doesn't matter much to me as I don't plan to buy another performance car that uses anything more than an OBD I system anyway. Be careful though, or those special interest groups will legislate those off the road too (while they build fossil fuel power electrical power plants).
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Old 08-10-2002, 07:04 PM   #17
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Be careful though, or those special interest groups will legislate those off the road too (while they build fossil fuel power electrical power plants).
They have already tried, twice.
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Old 08-10-2002, 07:34 PM   #18
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They have already tried, twice.
Three times the charm.
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Old 08-11-2002, 02:49 AM   #19
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All I hear here is a bunch of rumors and people pulling **** out there ***. No hard laid down in stone facts.

I don't plan on buying any new cars that I will be modding within the next 5 years. So I won't be worrying about this all that much.
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Old 08-11-2002, 04:12 AM   #20
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if its a computer it can be hacked... simple as that =]

but um yeah... I like to be able to tune my car with wrenches, not some damn computer chip.... I think i'll be happy with my 'ancient' carb. for a long time to come, even better seeing as there is no emissions down here in FL
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Old 08-12-2002, 12:16 AM   #21
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Quote:
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Detroit is run by the EPA and lawmakers, its a sorry truth.
...and the EPA and all other politicians are hired by big, fat, green corporate money. So who do you think will win that argument?

I've been following the development of On Board Diagnostic systems and speculative generations for several years. OBD-III conventions have included the possibility of communications (two-way, incidentally) for years. The speculation is that even vehicle speed can be relayed to the roadside monitoring stations, and roadside communications could theoretically send information to the PCM to reduce speed, shut down the vehicle in police pursuit situations, disable the vehicle if emissions repairs are not done in a timely manner, etc.

The big kick on any of this is that personal liberties would be violated, and those on either side of the law might have the ability to disable or monitor the vehicle of any law-abiding citizen. This would mean that those with more than rudimentary technical abilities would be able to disable any personal or police car at will. Do any of you think that this would fly in the face of a terrorist threat in North America? I'll bet middle eastern countries would have the technolgy to perform two-way communication before most police departments. DUH!

And any system that relies on digital radio communication can easily be "cut-off" from the rest of the electronic world with little effort. Reprogramming an entire system would only be a minor challenge to even a half-assed engineer. If the DOD and MicroSoft computer systems can be hacked into by bored teenagers, how long before there is a way around a simple automotive system? Are you serious?

I must be getting old, but I remember in 1978 when OBD-I systems were being discussed and mandated. By 1982 there would be no more performance cars, no more modifications, no more power tuning. It seems that that didn't develope either.

Then, in 1992, OBD-II was going to end all the fun again, and there would be no way around the systems, no more power, no more tuning, no more fun, yada, yada...

I won't even mention the phobic Y2K bullshe-ot. How many posts did we see about "Will my car still run?", "How many cans of Spam can fit in the back of a ThirdGen?", etc. Wow. Bring it on, we can take it, and conquer it.
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Old 08-12-2002, 12:40 AM   #22
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...and the EPA and all other politicians are hired by big, fat, green corporate money. So who do you think will win that argument?


The big kick on any of this is that personal liberties would be violated,
Look no further than our very own california for an example on how far special interest groups can and will go.

Own any 1995+ vehicles? What exactly does that little ECM attatched to the air bag system do? If you don't already know, you might want to find out. And what are the possibilities of its function and information being used against you?

And how exactly do you "get around" a hardwired flash once chipset? Which was one of the possibilities being considered for OBD III. No one said OBD III would be impossible to "tamper" with a vehicle, but they are making it more difficult for the "average" person to do modifications to a vehicle without it setting off alarms all over and "telling on you" when you do.

The ECM that reports its condition and the engine's state of tune, vehicle location and speed, along with the ability to disable vehicles remotely were things that got shot down when OBD II was emerging. They'll keep trying to get them in there somehow. I have little faith in our politicans, they sway to where ever the greenbacks are flowing from and are as fickle as they come. With few exceptions, our government is the "best money can buy".
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Old 08-12-2002, 12:26 PM   #23
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Face facts the DMV is taking over and all of these SMOG regulations are soon going to kill the performance aftermarket industry. I'm not saying any time soon but eventually it will happen. What's next wiring our cars so that if the computer senses that the cars going to fast it sends your info to the Police and you receive a ticket in the mail?! Remember that frase "Driving is a Privalige" the government can set down whatever new laws they want with the newer cars coming out.
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Old 08-12-2002, 03:00 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Morley

And how exactly do you "get around" a hardwired flash once chipset? Which was one of the possibilities being considered for OBD III. No one said OBD III would be impossible to "tamper" with a vehicle, but they are making it more difficult for the "average" person to do modifications to a vehicle without it setting off alarms all over and "telling on you" when you do.
Desolder it and replace it with a flashable one.
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Old 08-12-2002, 03:08 PM   #25
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Desolder it and replace it with a flashable one.
Not so simple when these chips are supposed to be made specifically for the auto industry (and only them) and will have no flashable equal.
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Old 08-12-2002, 03:34 PM   #26
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I've also heard that they're talking about going with a 42 volt system because they've pretty much reached their limit with the 12V. That will mean more batteries, they will have to start making room for them under seat, trunks, anywhere they can find room. Also with a system like this it will require a larger alternator to supply the power. One method I heard about is a alternator/starter combo, both units combined into one large unit. It will be placed between the transmission and engine. It's also suppose to cut down on a lot of the emissions by shutting down the engine while the car is at idle, such as being stoped at a stop light, because cars put out the most polution at idle. The computer will shut down the motor and the starter/alt unit will take over keeping the engine rotating, once it's time to start moving again the unit will have enough power to start the car in motion and once it reaches a certain speed the computer will start the motor up again.
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Old 08-12-2002, 04:08 PM   #27
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Old 08-12-2002, 04:31 PM   #28
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I've also heard that they're talking about going with a 42 volt system because they've pretty much reached their limit with the 12V. That will mean more batteries,
Not really, 2 24V aircraft batteries=48 volts and lots of power potential.

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One method I heard about is a alternator/starter combo, both units combined into one large unit.
Nothing new here, starter generators, used on aircraft for decades. Doubtful any of that will make it into cars in the near future.
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Old 08-12-2002, 05:42 PM   #29
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yeah your right that's what I meant 48V. yeah I don't see it happening anytime soon but it's just one method that's been proposed.
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Old 08-12-2002, 08:08 PM   #30
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Not so simple when these chips are supposed to be made specifically for the auto industry (and only them) and will have no flashable equal.
How long do you think it will take the Asians to make a flashable version? About a heartbeat or two if money's involved.

Again, look at ALL the money Microsoft has spent to stop hacking and copying of their software, and EVERYTIME when people think Microsoft may have done it - someone breaks in.

AND if the manufacturer SHOULD be able to make a non-flashable version unique to them, then I will just unsolder it, install a ZIF socket and burn an eprom that works much like use guys with Memcals do. Won't stop me if I can't "flash it". I'll just "swap the chip" and "reburn".

NOTHING is impossible when it comes to electronics and computers. Just difficult, which means more money to be made.

Now that you got a burner and about to do eprom (based on your post on the DIY Prom Board), you'll see what I mean.

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Old 08-12-2002, 09:03 PM   #31
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Again, look at ALL the money Microsoft has spent to stop hacking and copying of their software, and EVERYTIME when people think Microsoft may have done it - someone breaks in.

Apples to oranges, mickeysoft has not been able to do much of anything right the first, second or third time.
I never said it would be "impossible" but hard enough and expensive enough that the number of people able to affort it and do it will be very small.

Besides, with the death of the "F" body the point is moot. Who wants to burn custom chips for their Olds cutlass?
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Old 08-12-2002, 09:23 PM   #32
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I never said it would be "impossible" but hard enough and expensive enough that the number of people able to affort it and do it will be very small.
I recall all the people that said that back in the 80s with the OBD I systems and how they'd never buy a new car (without a carb). In fact, a few buddies said I wasted my money on my GTA because I'd never be able to modify it. Today, I prefer OBD I over a carb and if I bought an older car with a carb, I'd convert it to SD 7730.

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Besides, with the death of the "F" body the point is moot. Who wants to burn custom chips for their Olds cutlass?
Oldsmobile is also dead, but I hear what you're saying. There is the Vette, but I doubt I will ever buy one of those new. What I am likely to buy (and want to modify) is a truck. As soon as reasonably priced BIN Editor for the newer GM Trucks is available (TunerCat is working on it as we speak), I have a number of buddies wanting me to remove the speed limiter and make them "pollute good as a truck should".
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Old 08-12-2002, 09:31 PM   #33
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I recall all the people that said that back in the 80s with the OBD I systems
And it was at that time. It took how many years to get to the point where reprogramming the chips became "commonplace"?
And I'll never own a 'vette, too darn small and my size 13's don't fit side by side in the "foot well".

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I have a number of buddies wanting me to remove the speed limiter and make them "pollute good as a truck should".
I wouldn't do it, for the same reason that GM put the speed limiter in there...liability.
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Old 08-12-2002, 09:37 PM   #34
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I wouldn't do it, for the same reason that GM put the speed limiter in there...liability.
We're Canadian. We don't sue...we just punch you out.
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Old 08-12-2002, 10:49 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by grafx
It's also suppose to cut down on a lot of the emissions by shutting down the engine while the car is at idle, such as being stoped at a stop light, because cars put out the most polution at idle. The computer will shut down the motor and the starter/alt unit will take over keeping the engine rotating, once it's time to start moving again the unit will have enough power to start the car in motion and once it reaches a certain speed the computer will start the motor up again.
They have that now. It's what one of them there "Hybrids" is. Some friends of Ma & Pa just bought one of them Honda's. It's gets ~40 MPG on the Highway and ~50 in the city. And it's uglier than a toy box full of gutted catfish.

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Old 08-13-2002, 11:14 AM   #36
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When the computers are monitoring emission outputs how easy do you think it will be to get away with modifying the program??
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Old 08-13-2002, 01:14 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Glenn91L98GTA

<h1> We're Canadian. We don't sue...we just punch you out. </h1>
Holy crap, Glenn. That's gotta be the quote of the year! I LOVE it!

Maybe we (below the 49th parallel) should adopt such a philosophy, with a little twist - start punching the laywers out first, then the politicos, then the special interests, etc. A kind of a top-down approach to the problem.

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Umm, hey, Grafx. The computers ARE already monitoring the emissions outputs. Scan an OBD-II PCM to see all the powertrain and manufacturers' codes, and you'll see what's being monitored and controlled.

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As for the voltage comment, what's the big deal? A lot of vehicles are running 6, 12, 24, 48, and AC/DC systems already. Your point?

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I'll stick with my story. I agree with Glenn. If there is a will, there is a way. Necessity may be the "mother of invention", but desire is the "grandfather of necessity". If someone wants it badly enough, it will happen.

And electronic systems are so open to modification that even I can understand it. Cloned cell phones, networks broken into, programs hacked, viruses, cheap knock-off products, anti-technologies (like radar and laser jammers), etc., are all examples of this. When critical systems are secured, how is it done? Isolation. As long as no one can get in, the systems are relatively immune to re-engineering. As soon as the technology is released into the public domain, someone is going to start hacking it apart.

I think I've said it before, but all these commonplace systems are for the sheep in the world. Let them THINK that they're safe, and that everything in the world is in the control of others. We'll know better, but we're more like wolves than sheep.

Moreover, the Republicans are in office now, so I doubt that the EPA and all it's little brothers are going to be getting a lot of priority over commerce and national security matters. Anything that adds more cost to a product doesn't stand an Iraqi's chance in the desert in this economic climate. Even Bill Clinton was smarter than that (which is pretty good for a democrat).
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Old 08-13-2002, 08:32 PM   #38
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Vader (Jeff), the irony in all this is you have the various special interest groups that are able to "impose their will" upon us "to save ourselves from ourselves".

And then you have the tobacco companies. An industry that kills more people worldwide than any other. I was just watching a news report where they showed that the tobacco companies where giving financial support to "stop smoking aid companies" like Nicorette Gum or the Patch to limit the amount of advertising they do.

PS: Glad you like my quote. I never met anything I couldn't beat into agreement. I prefer to think of it as the "magic touch".
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Old 08-14-2002, 06:25 PM   #39
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time for a haltech then


can controll anything I want just by using my laptop

no emissions to worry about
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Old 08-14-2002, 10:29 PM   #40
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As far as the OBD III systems are concerned 42 volt systems will be the norm in ten to fifteen years, period. you cannot hang three to five seperate PCM`s on a car with a 120a alternator and not expect some funky voltage problems to start
being the norm. i`ve been in the car repair buisness for 14 years straight now and wish i had half the talent of these engineers who can make it all work reasonably well.i think one thing will kill all the upgrades that OBD III was supposed to make, SEPT 11. it is in no ones best interest to allow cars to be tracked monitored or shut down in any way shape or form, and it is a tough uphill legal fight due to things called the constitution, and the bill of rights. so i doubt if OBDIII will be much more than diagnostic enhancements for the repair industry,as far as special interests go.
--------------------------------

Hold on a sec fellas! what the heck is a special interest? don`t we all go to the polls come election time and vote for the guy who`s gonna bring home the bacon for us!!?!?!?(well you should anyways)start electing people who tell you how much more money they are willing to let you keep
instead of jacking you and i every friday and things will change in a hurry, think about it,
if banks, car makers and other corporations know that you have an extra 30% more money to take home every year who do you think they will listen to then?? the problem is that WE THE PEOPLE have sent men to that great hog lot in the east to steal someone elses money and bring it back to us! what do you expect to happen? we have hired theives and then we expect them to be honorable?? makes about as much sense as giving a 4 year old the power to choose his dietary makeup, of course he`ll gorge himself on sweets till he`s as big as the hindenburg! look around you this friday as you go home from work at all the people who are old enough to work how much money just got ripped out of your community? and it happens EVERY friday.
do you really think you are better off letting washington take that money and dole it out when they feel like it. or, would you have a better life if it never left it`s rightful owner. to hexx
with worrying about the haves, worry about what you hav`nt got thanks to your elected officials
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Old 08-14-2002, 10:46 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by AFRGTA
and it is a tough uphill legal fight due to things called the constitution, and the bill of rights. so i doubt if OBDIII will be much more than diagnostic enhancements for the repair industry,as far as special interests go.
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Didn't you hear?.. after Sep 11th the bill of rights and constitution doesn't apply anymore.. you just say whatever your trying to pass is to fight terrorism and push it through...
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Old 08-15-2002, 03:27 AM   #42
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With gas prices the way they are Government is setting new standards all the time for car manufactures to come with ways of increasing gas mileage and especially Emissions, that's the major one. With the new OBD-3 coming out the computer will have better control of the engine. It use to be that if the computer detected a misfire for example it would compensate by adjusting the entire engine, then they got more advanced to where they could isolate the problem to one bank then 2 cylinders but now with the OBD-3 they will be able to isolate it to the exact cylinder that has the problem. As soon as a problem develops in one cylinder the computer has the capabilities of adjusting in a matter of seconds. You can totally disable one cylinder and the emissions output will not be effected whatsoever. The car may run like sh@t but emissions will not increase. The computer will also have better self-diagnosing capabilites. I admire the advancements in automotive technology that are being made, the problem I have is when DMV gets notified of a problem and then in turn puts a time limit on when I have to get it fixed. Lets face facts, emission laws will eventually end the performance industry. I'm not saying it's going to end anytime soon, this is something that my children will probably have to deal with. But if this is the type of regulations they are going to start installing on newer cars, well then Hell my 3rd gen is with me till the day I die!! That's the way I want it regardless, after all nothing compares to a 3rd gen, except maybe a 4th.
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Old 08-15-2002, 06:02 AM   #43
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Kind of on topic and kind of off, but I was watching TLC or discovery science, or one of the channels one day while channel surfing (got to love satellite) and came across a show where they were talking about implementing the 42v system on the 2005 vette. It's about time really, with all the computer controlled systems, the 12v systems are beyond maxed, kind of like how the 6's were in the 40's and 50's.

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Old 08-15-2002, 08:14 AM   #44
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Didn't you hear?.. after Sep 11th the bill of rights and constitution doesn't apply anymore.. you just say whatever your trying to pass is to fight terrorism and push it through...

Only if WE let them. these guys are only people like you and i, if enough pressure is applied it will change! we cannot sit by and hope our elected official has the courage to do it himself unless he knows the people who hired him have his back.


With gas prices the way they are Government is setting new standards all the time for car manufactures to come with ways of increasing gas mileage and especially Emissions

OBD 2 already isolates the culprit cylinder and if the emissions load is sever enough the check engine light will flash, and it does it fast enough that it get`s annoying in a hurry, as far as gas mileage goes engine efficency has increased about 5% since the 70`s, car weight has been put on the dick gregory diet, and it`s getting tough to lighten them any more, emmisions will never drop by more than 10% unless a new fuel source is used, as of now the only time a car outputs emissions is on acceleration. at a steady state there is nothing but O2 coming from the tail pipe, most cars have less than 2 ppm Co, and HC`s run around 40 to 70 ppm that`s unbeleiveable, unless you are willing to turn total control of you vehicle over to the the state so THEY can control how fast you get somewhere, well you get the idea. ain`t gonna happen. but then again they`ll probably offer a juicy tax rebate to ya for giving you back something that should have never been there`s in the first place,
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