Bubbajones_ya

I know there are a bit of threads around with advice on installing camshafts, but I had some more specific questions before I went ahead and tried tackling this myself. I also didn't see any writeups on doing this which I would think there are some out there so hopefully someone can point me in the right direction!


Background:

I have a 1991 RS 305 TBI Camaro. I put on an open element filter and hooker 2055 headers with full 3" exhaust/hi flow cat. I also purchased the EBL system from RBob so I have the ability to tune (just not the know how yet), which I know will be mandatory after a cam swap. I fixed it up really nice from severe mechanical/cosmetic neglect and am now trying to clean up the engine bay/build a little more efficiency/power. I know the 305 isn't a workhorse by any means, but I think it feels pretty good with my 3.23 gearing and t5 trans (unfortunately V6 one, but I'll swap that back to a V8 or T56 when I find one/get enough money). (I kinda want to build up a little more power but also efficiency for MPG)

Anyways, I noticed my intake manifold has a slight coolant leak near the front of the engine bay under the engine hoist mounts. The intake on this vehicle is incredibly dirty and has pack rat turds from the previous ownders etc. So, because it is dirty and I have to take it off to replace gaskets, I decided I would replace the whole intake with an edleborck 3704 manifold I found on craigslist.

Due to me going to have the intake off, it was recommended that I should replace the camshaft at that time. Fast355 recommended this camshaft http://www.competitionproducts.com/E.../#.VTo4RpMYFtN, and I've read a lot of his posts around here and I trust his judgement/knowledge based on the info he has provided.

The thing is, I've never replaced a camshaft before so I don't know the exact process I need to take. I've replaced cylinder heads and the timing chain on my Bronco's 302 before, so I've done some extensive work, but I never have touched a camshaft. I am assuming I will want to set aside a day or two for the work, and I have my Bronco to drive when the Camaro is undergoing the work. I do not have an engine hoist so I would have to do the work with the engine in the car.




The questions I have are:

Are there any good walkthroughs for replacing a camshaft in an L03 engine in the car?

I've read the condenser and radiator have to be taken out, how do I maneuver the AC condenser out of the way without opening the AC system?

Forgive me for sounding stupid, but I'm not sure where the lifters are located on an engine, are the lifters easy to take out? I've done the valve stem seals on my car so I had the push-rods and rockers off, but I don't know where the lifters are. I'm assuming I can access them from under the intake manifold when it's off.

What else do you guys recommend I replace while I'm doing the camshaft/intake/intake seals?
I believe I will do the timing chain because my car has over 160k on it (not sure the exact miles), but I don't want to spend too much money overall. I'm getting the intake for 150, the cam is another 200, and I'm assuming the timing chain set will be around 50. I would like to keep the cost under 500 overall if possible when doing this work.

I do plan on polishing some stuff while it's off (like water pump, AC bracket assembly, alternator) and getting the intake powdercoated.


Any other advice or info from people who have done this before would be greatly appreciated! I just finished this semester of college so I have much more time to dedicate to working on my Camaro now! Only one more semester of college left too!!!

Night rider327

iTrader: (13)

Yes the rad and AC coils must be removed to do a cam swap, to have enough room for the cam to slide out of block. IIRC the AC coil has hard line hooked to it not rubber so no way of removing or moving it with out opening the AC system (been so long since I had a car with AC lol)

The lifters are in the block, under the intake manifold.

The cam is in the center on block. To get to it you must remove all acc. that are in the way, or bolted to something in the way. Like Alt., water pump, etc.

Timing cover has to come off, but the front lip seal of oil pan is on the timing cover, so you have to loosen 4 or 5 oil pan bolts on each side of oil pan to get the timing cover off.

The crankshaft end snout also sticks through the timing cover. So you must remove bottom pulley, then with the correct tool pull off the harmonic damper

Once cover is off, you will see the timing chain and gears. The top big gear is bolted to the cam. Take the 3 bolts out and move chain off the bottom gear and top gear, put the top gear back on to use as a handle when pulling cam out.

If changing timing set as well, the bottom gear on crank is a press fit and you need a puller to pull it off the crank.

If yours is a 1991 engine it will be a roller cam, roller lifters. The link to the cam is not working but make sure it's a hyd. roller cam and not a hyd. flat tappet cam.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

If it is the cam I recomeended somewhere, I am sure its probably the Elgin E1136. It is a factory style hydraulic roller cam that uses the cam retainer plate behind the cam gear.

It is 210/215 @ .050, .462/.470" lift and cut on a 110* LSA advanced to a 106* ICL. Its a nice mild cam in my experience.

http://www.competitionproducts.com/E.../#.VUoZIGd0zcs

Here is a whole thread about camming a TBI engine.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/...-ultimate.html

EDGE

Be very careful when you remove and install the cam. Make sure you support it the whole time coming out, and going back in. You don't want to gouge the cam bearings with the distributor gear on the back of the cam. You'll feel each journal as it drops off the bearing surface, so don't just let it clunk it's way out.

Bubbajones_ya

Awesome thank you everyone for the information!

Yes Fast355, it is the Elgin E1136 cam you recommended that I am going to buy. That post you linked to that ShiftyCapone wrote is excellent! Just was I was looking for.

As for taking the AC condenser off... that's bad news for me. I just finished replacing my whole AC system a few weeks ago and it works great now! Here in Arizona, AC is pretty much mandatory if you want to drive in the summer. I was hoping to not have to take it apart again but at least I know everything I have works now and my new set of manifold gauges work properly! I might try to mess around with the metal high pressure line and see if I can unbolt most of the stuff and somehow push and slightly bend it out of the way with help when I get to sliding the old cam/new one back in.

Also I was kinda hoping to not get new valve springs... but I probably should. I might consider 1.6 rockers even if it will make a difference too. I replaced the valve stem seals about 3 months ago and it was a pain! I didn't want to have to replace those seals again, but I've done it on my friends car also so it went by much faster on his. I'm sure the third time will be even quicker.

I now just have to start accumulating all the parts I need so I'm 100% ready to go when I start the work. I also need to study up a bit more on tuning.... Hopefully I should be picking up the Edlebrock 3704 manifold today when I hear back from the guy selling it.

Thanks again for the info!

eseibel67

You do not have to remove the A/C condenser to get the cam out, but you will need an assistant. The condenser can be lifted and twisted gently while the cam is being removed. Just be careful, the hard liquid line can take some twisting but not much.




Aftermarket cams will always need new springs.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

You don't have to discharge the A/C. Do just like the factory: unbolt the compressor from the engine and the condenser from the chassis, and move them out of the way to the side, together.

You'll encounter interference from a brace under the hood latch but that's pretty easy to overcome.

You MUST MUST MUST MUST replace the valve springs, if you (a) want not to have broken parts within a few days of doing the cam, and/or (b) want to get as much as possible of the full benefit of an aftermarket cam.

1.6 rockers will make no difference whatsoever over 1.5. Since the valve isn't The Bottleneck as long as you have those crappy restrictive swirl-port heads, then The Bottleneck will remain just as necked as it is now, even if you could put 3.6 ratio rockers on there. Putting rigid rockers that transfer the cam's full profile to the valves, instead of the stick stamped sheet-rubber garbage, can make a HHHHHHUUUUUUUUUJJJJJJJJJE difference; the increase in ratio, not so much. If you decide to replace them, get steel ones, NOT aluminum.

Keep in mind when re-stabbing the dist, we assemble engines with the cam and crank dots "dot to dot", so we can see the alignment easily; but that is NOT #1 firing. It is #6 firing, and #1 valves rocking. If you leave the short block at that point and then drop in the dist @ #1, the engine will not run. #1 firing is "both dots up". Install the timing set "dot to dot", and then rotate the crank exactly one full turn to get it to the OTHER instance of #1 TDC, where #1 fires.

You will come across ALOT of "mightaswells": water pump, belt, hoses, tensioner, thermostat, tune-up, and so on. Might as well knock em out while it doesn't take any extra labor.

Take the car to the quarter car wash before you tear it down. It's AHELLUVALLOT eeeeezier and less unpleasant to work on a CLEAN motor than some steaming funky pile of crap with 300,000 miles of accumulated ½" deep schmutz all over everything. Pick up about 3 cans of engine degreaser along the way; NOT the "foaming" kind (which is merely soap water) but rather the kind that's diesel fuel in a spray can. Store brands are perfectly fine. When you get to the car wash, let the motor sit for a few minutes first for the exh to cool a bit, then take off the air cleaner and any other covering pieces you can easily get to, and drench it real good with the fluid. Remember that it's FLAMMABLE, after all it's motor fuel, so be careful. Pay particular attention to every place you'll have to work; accessories on the front of the motor, top of the intake, all around the valve covers, etc. etc. etc. Spray it again, then put your money in and turn it to "wash" and blast EVERY SQUARE INCH you can reach, from above, below, from the front underneath, from the sides underneath, and EVERY other possible angle. Helps if you take your floor jack with you. Don't spray straight into sensors if you can help it, and of course don't wash the dist; under it, but not the cap. Then once you get the car apart you can take all the parts to the car wash and blast em again. You could even pick up some oven cleaner and some more degreaser, and strip em down to clean metal; much cheeeeeeeeeper to do that than, for example, replacing the intake because it's dirty. I cannot emphasize strongly enough how much grief you will spare yourself this way; working on a clean motor always beats forcing yourself to wallow in a half-century of accumulated filth for 2 solid days, and the end result is better too when you aren't constantly fighting a crust of grunge all the time.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

That cam will not break stock parts, but it would be worth changing the aging old springs for some new ones.

1.6:1 roller rockers would not be needed and the extra lift would only complicate retainer to valve seal clearance and spring choice for an otherwise stock setup.

I disagree on the steel rockers. I have used 1.6:1 and 1.5:1 aluminum, narrow body self-aligning rollers in everything for the past 10 years with ZERO issues. Even had a set of those CAT rockers off ebay from China in an engine that had 280 lbs open pressure with no issues.

I prefer the Crane Golds, but like the name suggests they have become "GOLD" since Crane relaunched. They are the only full roller rocker GM has ever put on a production engine.

Bubbajones_ya

Thanks again for all the useful information.

I know I would have messed up the firing order putting the distributor back in so thank you Sofakingdom for the tip on aligning the crank/cam gear after putting the new chain on.


I looked up some springs, and it looks like I'm going to go with this set: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-981-16/overview/ so I hope that will work on the stock swirl ports.

Also with the rocker arms, if 1.6 wouldn't be any gain and potentially cause issues, then I won't bother getting them. However, if rigid roller rockers will help some, I might look into those. I don't necessarily wan't anything special since I still only have the swirl port heads, but something that will help more than stock would be nice that's not too much money.

I'm not sure what rocker arms are better than others for this application, and while the Crane Gold ones look really nice, I don't want to spend that much money quite yet (well unless they would make a really decent impact, but for almost 300 I would imagine that saving that for heads first would probably be a better investment,).

Would this rocker arms be a worthwhile benefit over the stock: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/su...make/chevrolet

I can spend around 100 on them and not feel too bad. I know I could eventually move them over if I get new heads or way later down the road get a 350 or something.



Slightly off topic but important to me none the less, would swapping this cam help or hurt MPG? I use this as my daily driver, so I don't really want to lose any MPG if I can avoid it (I'm still going to do it none the less). If roller rockers will help net slightly better mpg, I'll be down for buying them for sure. I've read different aspects on cams hurting and helping with MPG so I don't know. It's kind of a hobby for me to get better MPG, even if I spend more money than I'll ever get back in savings. I drive a lot of miles, so the convenience of not filling up as much gives me a slight piece of mind.

Everything I've read states that the stock cam for the L03 is terrible, so I would think adding a mild cam would help with power, therefore making the engine more efficient and helping MPG if I drive responsibly. I just want to be prepared for what to expect after I get this work done.

Night rider327

iTrader: (13)

The rockers you linked too will not work on your engine. Yours is a 91 and uses self aliening rocker arms. Those are the non self aligning ones and won't work

The SA rockers are more expensive and at this point not worth it. The gain from a roller tip rocker is very very little. To see a good reward for your money you need to go to full roller rockers and just not worth it on such a mild engine IMHO

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

I guess value/worth is in the eye of the beholder....I never keep factory rockers on anything. The stamped steel, friction creating, heat generating pieces of junk are just that JUNK. 100K+ miles take their toll on the stock stuff and they are probably in dire need of replacement anyway. Any time the rockers come off my engine a set of full rollers go back in their place. I put a set on a practically stock 350 TBI engine and saw gains of 10-15 HP based on the ET reduction and MPH increase. The engine also ran smoother and made more power across the board. I also noticeable increases in the demand for fuel in the higher rpm/load areas.

Night rider327

iTrader: (13)

Fast355.... Yeah man, don't get me wrong I'm a full roller rocker fan for sure. I agree with you but I look at bang for the buck..

Like with the OP's engine. He is still running swirl port heads. Those $200-350 full roller SA rockers is not going to be his best use for his money.

At this point the $200-350 he would have spent on the rockers could be put towards better heads. The better heads will gain him 30-80 HP, VS the 10-15 HP gain from the rockers

Bubbajones_ya

I've been thinking too, since I'm so close to having the heads off, I MIGHT look at swapping heads too, but ONLY if they aren't too expensive (like 1000 bucks or something)...

My main intention of getting this Camaro was to have a cool car that gets reasonable gas mileage. Compared to my 96 Bronco getting 14-15MPG, the 19-21MPG I've been getting in this is awesome. Plus, its decently quick and I think is one of the best style looking Camaros.

I've done some reading and it seems like the swirl ports are good (maybe the best?) for strictly MPG. I didn't want to put different heads for 1) it's a lot of money for a 305 (which many people seem to dislike, but I don't find it bad at all), 2)I don't want my MPG to drop, and 3) I just replaced my fuel pump (which was not fun) with an AC delco unit, but its the standard pump so it probably won't handle much above 300 HP I'm guessing. So that's why I haven't considered getting any yet.

Because I already bought the edelbrock 3704 intake (used for 150), I think vortec heads are out of the question because I believe they need a different intake. I was considering having work done to my current heads, but I don't know the cost of that and it probably wouldn't be very cost effective either.

If anyone knows some decent "cheap" heads that will get same/better MPG than the swirl ports (with reasonable driving habits), I may look into getting those too! Otherwise, I'll probably keep the swirls for this engine. I know if I get different heads, I'll have to push back the cam install along with the heads in order to save up money.

_________________________________________

Back to the rockers, I did find some Crane Gold rockers Part #10758-16 that are for sale locally on craigslist. The guy wants 275 for them though... which is starting to be a little bit much for me even though new I think they are like 400. However, I can always keep them and swap them to different heads or something so I haven't decided if I want to buy them yet or not.

It looks like I'll be spending about 375 for everything else I'm going to need for the cam swap, so an addition 275 is a bit. However, if those rockers help any with MPG and power across the RPM range I may consider them.


Edit: I just realized the rockers are 1.6 ratio, so I'm not sure if that would interfere too much with the spring/valve clearance issues.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Bang for the buck with another set of heads means a stock head casting. All 305 heads prior to the Vortec castings are roughly equal to each other in power in stock form. The 450, 416, 601, 081 and even 187 heads are fairly close in power production. The 520 and 059 vortec heads are substantially better than any earlier offerings in stock form. Another good head to make power with comes on the ZZ4 but it lacks some of the necessary bolt holes needed for the F-car serpentine belt setup. There are several threads in the TPI area detailing the L98 Aluminum/ZZ4 head conversion. ZZ4 heads do not have an EFE crossover for the EGR valve.

Night rider327

iTrader: (13)

Truthfully if it was me I would look into selling the intake and buying a set of L30 305 vortec heads, or L31 350 vortec heads and having them milled down to 58cc or so. Then buy the vortec intake.

Bubbajones_ya

I've thought a lot about vortec heads, but have been too indecisive. Also, I haven't seen any on craigslist in my area (I've been pondering the idea and looking the past 4-5 months and none have come up.)

After a lot of research on the boards here, it looks as if the swirl ports actually make MORE torque (not by much however) than the vortecs under 4500RPM (or maybe it was under 3000RPM.)

I've read that above around the 4500RPM range, swirl ports are complete garbage, but I just haven't decided on how high I want to rev my engine yet. I'm used to driving trucks, and I rarely see 4000RPM in my Bronco. With my Camaro, I occasionally hit 4500RPM and very rarely 5K, but that seems very high to me when I drive. Maybe I'm just not used to driving a car?

I feel though that the swirl ports may be better from MPG if they make better torque than other heads available, and MPG is a pretty big concern for me with this car (because I use it as my daily driver now and drive 200-300 miles a week). I suppose I'm still undecided though if I will change heads on this engine or not.

I think the best case for now is to stay with the swirl ports, and save up for some nicer heads or potentially an LT1 (or whatever nice engine the EBL can be used on) and T56 swap. Once I get my degree this coming semester in mechanical engineering, I owe the Air Force 2 years, so I figure I'll just save up over those 2 years (and pay back loans...) and hopefully come across a donor car for that swap.


Anyways I think I decided I'm probably going to get roller rockers for my car in the meantime too. I think the scoprion narrow body 1.5 roller rockers are what I will go with. I haven't had money/time to order or work on anything yet though, and I need to replace my brothers Isuzu Hombres oil pan/rear main seal so it will still be a while.... I'll get those things with the next few weeks though!

Bubbajones_ya

I've been doing some more research on things to consider when doing the work and have another question.

I have decided that I'm going to purchase flow matched injectors for the TBI unit and would like to know some things before I commit to them.


Where is the best place to buy flow matched TBI injectors for my 305? I saw ebay is selling some and was considering getting them off there.

Should I purchase 350 injectors due to the mods I will be having now (cam/intake/exhaust (probably ported heads))? I saw some calculators for injector ratings based on HP and stuff but don't know really what I'll be expecting my HP to be.

As stated above, I most likely will be having my stock 187 heads get ported/polished/gasket matched which I think should get me some more MPG and HP. If I do this, I think I may need bigger injectors but I really have no clue. Everything I searched has said not to put 350 injectors on a stock 305, but I haven't read anything when the 350 injectors become useful on a modded 305.


Thank you for any input! I just got a second tax refund check (was overcharged for something) back in the mail which will cover the injectors, I just need to know which ones I should get! I would hate to spend the money on flow matched 305 injectors when I should be getting the 350 ones. I also got the elgin camshaft in the mail today! I know have everything but the rocker arms (haven't ordered yet) so that's pretty exciting. However, I'll also need to get head gaskets (and probably head bolts and exhaust gaskets) if I do get my heads ported and polished too...

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Not sure who said not to use 350 injectors on even a stock engine. The stock injectors at the stock fuel pressure cannot even support the extra fuel demand of headers and a full exhaust properly. Years ago I put a pair of ported 081s on the .040" over 305 that I had in my G20 van that had a GM L69 cam, 1.6:1 roller rockers and 1 1/2" primary long tubes. I had to run 350 injectors at 14 psi to keep it under 85% duty cycle at 5,500 rpm. I also tried both the 929 and L82 350 cams in that setup. The EBL had just come out and I was a Beta tester for the original EBL aka EBL Classic. I ended up with the EBL controlling 350 injectors with the help of a VAFP running 20 psi at WOT and about 12-14 psi at idle. Idle vacuum with the L82 cam was under 12 in/hg in gear and HP was over 275 with torque well over 300 lb/ft. I had to convert to hydroboost with the L82 cam and run a very loose 2,800 rpm converter. I used the 202/207 @ .050, .415/.430" lift L69 cam with great results but tried the 194/203@ .050, 112 LSA L48 350 cam trying to get more midrange grunt. I did gain a little torque but lost power over 5,000 rpm. I then tried the 224/224 @ .050, 114 lsa L82 cam. It lost a ton of off-idle grunt hence the 2,800 rpm converter. In all honestly my earlier combo of the factory 305, with 601 heads and a federal mogul CS1014R 204/214 @ .050 on a 112 LSA made the most power and torque out of the cams I tested and had the same street manners as stock with a nice sounding idle.

This was what my moded TBI setup looked like.



I think your setup will still pull plenty of vacuum once its tuned. While idle vacuum was weak with my L82 cammed setup it was liveable with a vacuum can, but I tend to go a bit crazy with cam profiles and like the pedal feel of hydroboost and tend to convert. Just swapped my Express van and compared to the weak assist of the vacuum booster and 215/220 @ .050, 114 LSA cams weaker than stock vacumm the Hydroboost feels like you could stand my Express van on the front bumper at 80 mph stopping.

Bubbajones_ya

Okay so I FIANLLY have had time to start working on my car and do the cam swap. I've been busy all summer fixing my brothers truck and taking care of neighbors houses that I didn't want to leave my car in pieces the whole time.


Anyways, I'll post some pictures of where I'm at when I get a chance, I decided to pull the motor while doing this because I had to buy an engine hoist for my brothers truck and figured it would be nice to pull my motor now also. My ground wire for my blower motor was also chewed up by some pack rats so having the motor out of the way to fix it will be very convenient. I figure I'll try to throw down some of the leftover paint I had in the engine bay also so it looks a little cleaner.


I also am trying to clean up the block and paint it black and red. Im going to use VHT high temp spray paint so I don't know if it will really hold up, but I'm sure it will look better than it currently does.

Bubbajones_ya

Okay so I ran into some issues and have some questions.



I've come as far as pulling my engine and having the heads/everything else off. I was taking off the crankshaft sprocket and ran into an issue.

The puller I used ended up messing up the first few threads in the crankshaft. I thought I had enough washer stacked between the gear puller but I was wrong. I did end up buying a tap 7/16 - 20 and new harmonic balancer bolt and tapped out the threads and all seems well now (so I hope I didn't "loosen" the grip on the threads from taping them out.)

Anyways, the crankshaft did turn almost one revolution while I was taking the sprocket off. Before I took off the cam sprocket with the old timing chain on, I had both sprockets aligned dot to dot. If the crankshaft sprocket turned almost one revolution (with the chain off), can I just turn it a little more to realign the sprockets dot to dot, or will something be 180 degrees out of order?


I hope this makes sense, but I believe the cam sprocket rotates once for every two crank rotations, so if I rotated the crank once, then it won't be aligned properly unless I rotate another whole revolution.



If what I typed doesn't make any sense, is there a better way I should align the engine to TDC when I have both the heads and intake off? I just want to make sure I don't put something back together incorrectly! I've never gone as far to change sprockets when I've done timing chains because I never had a gear puller (and was afraid of messing something up like the threads which I just did!)


Thanks for any help!

Night rider327

iTrader: (13)

Turn the engine all you want, it does not matter... What matters is when you start putting stuff back to together.

Cam dot at 6:00, crank dot at 12:00 is the normal way cause it helps you to line up the dots better... This puts the engine with #6 cyl. and #1 cyl at TDC but #6 ready to fire...

Turn the crank 360* and now dots will be 12:00 and 12:00 and again both #1 and 6 at TDC but engine now will be with #1 ready to fire.

Drop in your dist. at this point

D_Smith87

You are definitely gonna want to upgrade valve springs, stock springs can barely handle a stock cam(.410 lift) /4500 rpms, and your best bet is to not run 1.6 because that puts you near .500 lift on the exhaust, on stock parts, you will quite possibly run into clearance issues, really hurting performance, possibly ruining your engine, 1.5s are much better for a street motor across the board

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

The cam I recomeended works ok with stock springs. Lift is .462/.470" and RPM range to 5,200 rpm. With 1.6s you would be sure to run into lift issues. That being said with the proper retainers and springs 1.6s would be a noticeable upgrade. I have run a .454/.454" lift cam with 1.6s for .484/.484" lift on stock TBI heads without issue.

Bubbajones_ya

Thank you that's what I was thinking after I thought about it some more, I just was stressing myself out.

I haven't gotten any pictures yet because my phone is acting up but I'll post some soon. I didn't believe my cam was worn but I was curious and looked up pictures. After looking some things up, it seems as if my cam actually may be worn so I suppose it's even better news that I'm getting a new one. The lobes are a lighter color in the middle from where the lifters roller rests, but they didn't look worn in.

I did purchase new valve springs (I believe stock replacement ones from comp cams, it's been a while now since I have purchased them though and they are at the machine shop with my heads), but not rockers yet. I haven't quite decided if I want to get 1.6 rockers or not based on the increasing cost of gaskets/supplies I have been buying. However, if I did decide to go with 1.6, would the new replacement springs I have not be suitable?


I do have another question also. After reading about changing cams, some people say to change the lifters too. Do you think I should change the lifters? Maybe they were only saying that in regards to non roller lifters, because mine all seemed fine to me when I pulled them out. Also, new roller hydraulic lifters would get very expensive quickly from what I looked up.

Anyways thanks for the all the information so far!

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

GM Performance Parts LS7 lifters are about $125 for a set of 16.

Stock replacement springs will not be enough for the 0.501" lift. Then again these heads rally stop seeing gains from lift at about 0.450".

You might consider a 1.5 or 1.52 roller rocker.

Bubbajones_ya

Thanks for all the help Fast355.

I think as of now I'll keep the lifters because they are hydaulic. I think what I read was that the non roller hydraulic lifters tend to wear more, but mine looked fine.

I inspected my camshaft more and definitely saw some wear and pitting on some of the lobes so it was time for a new one for sure.


As a side project, since I had the motor out, I decided to do a quick sloppy job to paint my engine bay.

Here is what it looked like previously (right after I took off the coolant and washer fluid reservoirs, the coolant one was broken so I got new ones I'm going to relocate):


And now after I painted it!



When I painted my car, I forgot to add reducer to the clear coat and it was kinda hot out... I remember to do it this time and the clear came out so much better... I'm going to re clear my car soon because the paint in my engine bay looks better than the paint on my car now.


Anyways, here is a picture of the small amount of work I've done on my engine while it's out:



I painted the oil pan and water pump read also and put those on, they are not the same shade though.. but pretty close. I'm going to paint the heads black too.


------------------------------------------------------------------------

Different Question

When putting the timing chain back in, I had the sprockets aligned dot to dot.

However, After installing the timing cover, I cranked the crank sprocket some (when putting the rear main seal/cap retainer in) not thinking about misaligning the sprockets.

Is there an easy way to set the engine to TDC with the heads still off?

I want to make sure this is set up correctly when I drop the distributor back in. I don't know if I should align the piston all the way at the top on the first cylinder or not. Any help here would be appreciated!!


Edit: Well I feel dumb of course TDC (#1) is where the #1 cylinder is at the top, I just was confused on how to find if it was firing or the exhaust stroke but I suppose that will be pretty difficult to figure out with the heads off and timing cover on. I think I left the sprockets dot to dot and rotated the crank slightly, so if I rotate the crank enough for #1 cylinder to be at the top again, then it will be TDC firing for for the first cylinder (because dot to dot on the sprockets is TDC firing for #6 cylinder I believe.)

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Watch the cam lobes. Specifically, the very front-most one.

That's #1 exhaust.

Rotate the engine using your crank turning tool NOT the damper bolt. Watch that cam lobe. As it returns to the base circle, the keyway should be approaching being aligned with the left bank (at 1:30). When it's at EXACTLY 1:30, #1 & #6 will be at TDC, at #6 firing.

Exactly one turn of the crank from there will bring #1 & #6 to TDC again. This time, it'll be #6 valves rocking, and #1 firing.

Bubbajones_ya

Awesome thank you that should help a lot!

I do need to get a crank turning tool... they aren't available locally for me it seems but it's most likely a very good investment for me. I have yet to bolt my refurbished heads on because I was helping a friend install AC on his car be we keep running into more things we need.

Bubbajones_ya

I have yet another question....

I got my intake manifold back last week and slowley have been working on porting it out. As I was working on opening my intake manifold ports to match the gasket (the heads' ports were also matched to these gaskets), I noticed that the powder coating was applied to the front and rear lip where RTV would go.



Is this going to be okay to have powder coating here, or should I try scuffing it up? I know it's best not to have it on gasket surfaces, but I don't know what it will be like on the RTV surfaces.

Edit: It also sounds like there may be trapped media inside the intake manifold when the shop sand blasted it. Does anyone know of a way to get it out? I tried using my air compressor to blow it out but it sounds as if there still is some in there.

Bubbajones_ya

So I finally got everything bolted back up and was ready to fire up my car but the gas all leaked/evaporated out for the month and a half it's been sitting.

So I got more gas, then tried starting and the battery was dead. So then I charged that battery and no start... I check gas and spark, which I have both, so I figured the distributor must have be 180 degrees out.

After swapping the distributor back and forth 5 times (or maybe 6...) I finally researched more and found out that the #6 exhaust valve should close, and the intake valve should be opening, and that would be TDC on cylinder #1 firing. Apart from that, I loosened the rocker arm nuts because I tried adjusting them cold and believe I over-tightened them.


So after loosening the valves a bit, installing the distributor in the correct position, making sure I had gas/spark and a charge, I tried starting again and still didn't have luck.

However, when I hit the gas pedal it did fire up and sorta would idle, but would quickly die if I let off the gas.




So that is where I'm at now, I decided to take a break for the night and will be back at it.

Here are a few things I think may be the issue:

I made the fuel pressure regulator adjustable, but can't figure out what the pressure is set at. Maybe I tried making it too high and it's messing stuff up? I have a fuel pressure gauge but can't get a reading on it, and my fuel pump and filter are about 6 months old so they are relatively new.

Maybe the timing is still off? I know the balancer lined up properly with the timing marks (verified them with the heads off after I installed the chain and cover) and I had the rotor pointing at plug one with TDC at cylinder 1. I also checked the plug wires several times so they should all be routed correctly.

Maybe the computer tune is too far off to run correctly? I did do a bit of work but I thought it would still be enough for it to idle. To recap the work done that would effect the tune:

- Larger valves and Intake and exhaust runners ported on stock 187 heads
- Elgin 1136 cam from stock cam
- Edelbrock performer TBI intake with slight porting from stock intake
- Larger fuel injectors (350) from stock 305 injectors
- Ultimate TBI porting and increasced fuel pressure



I'm stumped at this stage and since it's midnight now I'm heading to bed.

If anyone has any insight on something I may have overlooked or other advice I'd greatly appreciate it!

Bubbajones_ya

Well as of today, I can kinda get the car to idle, but not really.

Last night, when I had the distributor 180 degrees out a big flame shot through the throttle body. I then swapped the distributor 180 degrees and called it a night.

Today, if I give the car a light throttle, it will kinda idle, but is backfiring pretty heavily and chuggs a bit. Occasionally it will idle long enough on it's own for me to run out and try and turn the distributor to change the timing (with the EST unplugged), but it usually dies before then.

ALSO, I'm getting a lot of white smoke coming up through the throttle body and valve cover area (the covers are off). I loosened the rocker arms a bit so I can try and adjust the valves when the car idles, but it's running soo poorly I can't even try and adjust the valves.


I've tried adjusting some valves in the EBL but don't really know what to look at for this issue. Here's what I've done:


- IAC - idle speed: drive - increased idle by about 15% (manually tranny)

- BPC - BST vs VAC & BST - BPC vs BOOST adjusted with EBL utility
Set injectors to 61lbs and fuel pressure to 11psi, I was missing a valve on my fuel pressure gauge so I got it working. It reads around 11psi when engine is running (for the short amount of time it kinda runs)

- SA - initial SA - set to 0 with distributor timing mark at 0 and rotor lined up to #1 cylinder.



I'm going to try and keep messing with it. One time it seemed to kinda want to start to idle on its own when I turned the distributor slightly, but then it died anyways.

I'm afraid that I may destroy something if I keep this up, but don't have any way of getting it running besides the work I do.

Bubbajones_ya

UPDATE:

Well after messing around with the timing some more I actually did get it idling all by itself, but it was still backfiring quite a bit.

However I can't adjust the valves properly because I can't hear if they are clicking or not. I believe the issues I was having was 1: timing was slightly off, and 2: the valves were too far out of adjustment for it to run correctly.

After I tightened some valves when it was idling, the backfiring went away completely, but I'm having a hard timing hearing if the valves are clicking or not, and I don't want to over tighten them.

The cold adjustment method I tried was not working at all, and the hot adjustment method is too loud for me to hear it properly. I suppose I will look up some tips to get it running well. Hopefully nothing is messed up or I may have a mental breakdown and go insane (or just be really upset and realize I'll have to wait until next summer to fix it)

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Double check your firing order. Especially cylinders 5 and 7. I can feel the rockers better than I can hear them when the whole engine is tapping. Loosen the rocker until you feel it clacking then slowly tighten it until it stops then go 1/2 turn. It will run rough for a secon and then smooth out. Then repeat on the next and the next until you get the engine quiet. Once you get the rockers adjusted, revisit the timing. I recomeemd using 6-8° BTDC at both the distributor and ECM Initial timing value. It will help give you the timing you need to get the engine started on a cold morning.

Bubbajones_ya

Thanks fast 355.

I actually just got the valves tightened and hear no more clicking! There was just so much in the beginning and I was confusing it with other potential valve train noise (and scared I might have had damaged a valve or something). The car sounds way different now and Ive adjusted the valves twice before on these motors which was part of what was confusing me.

However, the timing issue is confusing me now.

I grabbed my timing gun (cheap harbor freight one but seems to work fine) and hooked it up to the number one wire.

When I try to check the base timing (EST unplugged) it looks as if it's about 15-20 degrees advanced. The line on the balancer doesn't line up with the timing marks on the timing cover (which it did previously)

When I turn the balancer to try and get it to line up with the cover, the line disappears. The line shows up steady and regularly about 1/4in to 3in (while adjusting the distributor) to the left of the timing marks on the cover, but as soon as I'm close, the line no longer shows up.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

I am confused at what you are doing! To set the timing you should have the distributor mostly snug/slightly loose, engine running with the EST unplugged. Should set the timing to 6° BTDC. The mark should be counter clockwise of the large V notch in the timing mark. Helps to paint a line on the pointer and balancer groove.

Bubbajones_ya

Sorry my post was slightly confusing, I do have the distributor down and mostly snug, and have painted a line on the balancer too.

I also have the EST unplugged.

I then would have the engine running,and have my timing light on the balancer, but the mark on my balancer is showing up about an inch to the left of the timing marks (so I'm guessing about 20 degrees advanced.)

I then tried turning the distributor and I see the mark on the balancer go towards the timing marks. However, when it gets close to being in range of the timing marks (about at the 12 degrees advanced mark), the line no longer shows up and the engine starts to bog down. It's like the firing order gets disturbed or something because I then turn it back and the line shows up again.

EDIT:

Here is a diagram of what I'm trying to explain:



The mark shows up to the left of the timing tabs, and I can turn the distributor and it will advance even more, but when I try and retard the timing to get it to line up with the timing marks, it just disappears.
It seems like the balancer slipped, but it was lined up properly when I was assembling the engine and before I took it apart, so I can't see how it would have slipped with just initial cranking... maybe it did though?

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Its probably running too rich and retarding the timing is causing it to dump even more fuel. Try taking the VE table from 0 RPM and 20 KPA to about 1,200 RPM and 70 KPA and multiply the table in that range by 0.85 to pull about 15% fuel from that range. Set your command Idle Speed to 1,000 rpm or adjust the minimum air rate screw on the throttle body up a couple of turns to keep it running long enough to get the timing set. You can even set the timing to 10-12* for now and adjust the Initial timing value in the Tunerpro. As long as it runs long enough to get a known timing value you will be ok for now. Once you hookup the EST, clear the ECM codes and restart the engine it will run better. I would enable idle spark for now in the calibration and set the idle spark to 30* BTDC.

Bubbajones_ya

Well I was trying to do more timing stuff and seem to have come across a problem.

My timing light wasn't working on my car so I checked it on my truck and it seems to work reasonably. It's a cheap harbor freight gun and the lighting is somewhat inconsistent, but I haven't had much issues with it before.

When I pulled the plug with my car running for the #1 cylinder it didn't seem to do anything so I'm guessing I'm getting very weak spark. My distributor, and coil are less than a year old each and I just put in new spark plugs. I left them at their base gap of .045.

The wire are fairly new but I know some had some damage from arcing against the headers (which I routed them out of the way now). I did not see any arcing from the wires though and it's pretty dark out now.

I don't know why I would get getting weak spark now, but I think that may be what's happening. I don't know what would cause the plugs to fire inconsistently or not at all otherwise.

EDIT:

It may be because my battery is going bad and/or the negative terminal bolts threads on the cable are messed up so it can't get a good enough ground. With me charging the battery and messing around, the light finally started working again. I will have to make a trip to oreillys and get a new battery and bolts I suppose.. I did manage to get the base timing to 12 BTDC though with the EST unplugged!

Anyways thanks again Fast355 you have helped me tremendously! I'll try and see what I can do to work out the rough idle still. Now that I got the timing correct I will try datalogging! I'm sure I will be stumped with more stuff but at least I'll have some data to post when I have more questions!

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Sounds like you may still have some rockers too tight. That cam, especially at 1,000 rpm should idle smooth once it is into closed loop and the ECM starts adjusting the air/fuel ratio.

12* BTDC is where I set the Initial value on the Startup bin I sent you. Do some datalogging at idle in the driveway along with some gentle throttle openings while stationary. Next take a slow trip around the block and send me the datalog file and the WUD program as I am sure it has probably changed since 2008 too. Do a few VE learns and watch for knock.

Bubbajones_ya

Just an update for anyone who may be following this thread or in case this helps people in the future:

Fast355 has helped me a whole bunch with the initial tuning and stuff. I still have a bit more to go for sure, but my car is running pretty decently now. I can now data-log comfortably without spark plugs being burnt up or falling off (which surprisingly happened to me about 4 times now after putting the engine in..)

My issue before was that my battery was almost dead, and the battery terminals were bad anyways, so I couldn't get it timed because the spark was too weak.

After replacing the battery, re-adjusting the valves, and doing some VE learns with the EBL, my car seems to be running fairly normally.

There are still some big tuning issues that need to be addressed (smoothing out the VE tables because some areas smell rich when driving etc and other areas that need tuning), but I feel confident driving the car normally now which is awesome.

I'll update this thread with more info after tuning some more, and hopefully my project helps someone out in the future!

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Looking around on the internet I cannot find a single video of this cam. I know your car must have a healthy idle now. I think alot of people would love to hear what it sounds like, especially with your headers and exhaust.

Bubbajones_ya

I will get the video of my car running up by this weekend. Since the weather has been somewhat permitting, I decided to try and tackle fixing my paint lines on my car and getting rid of some orange peel.

Surprisingly, it has been raining a lot here in AZ recently, and the forecast is pretty clear until late this weekend. I will have to paint very early morning or night regardless, but I figured I can try and tackle this now!

Bubbajones_ya

Alright so I finally had the time to make a short video on how it sounds. My phone kept cutting out the video for some reason so it's not very long. I may do a different video with the idle a little longer if someone wants it!

http://vid1267.photobucket.com/album...psmoeyz00k.mp4