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Tech / General EngineIs your car making a strange sound or won't start? Thinking of adding power with a new combination? Need other technical information or engine specific advice? Don't see another board for your problem? Post it here!
New to the forum but not a newbie. Old man reliving his youth, when I was 16 in 74 built a 67 Camaro with a 327/365 from a vet engine out of a WV junk yard and ran 10s with nothing but used parts and duct tape. Now I am 57 and have been building motorcycles for the past twenty years and had the yearn to get back into drag racing. I plan on buying a Third Gen to drag race only and researched what a good block would be to start. I found a used engine "supposedly" out of a 95 Tahoe, casting number 10243880. Did some research and found most of the sites said this, "350, 4 bolt, crate engines and ZZ4, roller cam, one piece rear seal". Hoped it had Vortec heads to save money, (this is a budget racer) but no luck. Well tore the motor down to send off to get Magnafluxed, bored 30 over, the heads decked, new cam bearings, and freeze plugs. The Hydraulic lifters wouldn't come out so I pulled the cam shaft and pushed the lifters out through the bottom. Guess what I found, Flat Tappet Lifters.
My question, every web site I have been on says this is a roller lifter motor, I am assuming I can replace the flat with rollers without additional machine work. Any ideas or comments?
Do the lifter bores have an alignment slot in them? If so then it's considered a roller block and an OEM style lifter can be used. If the block doesn't have the alignment slot then an aftermarket roller lifter is required.
Unless you find the partial VIN stamped on the block, there's nothing saying the engine was original. It could easily have been replaced or even rebuilt by a previous owner.
The ZZ4 may have used a roller cam in this block but that doesn't mean this casting came with a roller cam in every vehicle. GM used the same block casting for a lot of different engines just like they've done in the past. The old 010 casting could be a 302, 327 or 350 because they all used the same 4" bore.
Roller cams did not start until 1996 on the truck/suv engines. Also the same year for the vortec heads.
The 880 block is a little hard to pin point with out taking it apart. It was used for crate engines as well as stock production. The lower end crate engines, and car engines using that block, and trucks in 1995 got a flat tappet cam... Higher end crates and the 96 and up vortec trucks got the roller cam in the same block.
The block should have the bosses for the needed hardware but may not be drilled. So you may have to drill and tap the holes for the cam retainer plate and lifter "spider", then find the OEM roller parts to add to it.
Take a look at my for sale ad. http://atlanta.craigslist.org/wat/pts/5040935049.html
This is an 880 block, from a 1997 4wd. It is/was a vortec engine, had vortec heads, and roller cam. You see the "spider" in the lifter valley. See if your block has those 4 screw holes down the center.
Last edited by Night rider327; 06-27-2015 at 08:46 PM.
Night rider hit the head right on the nail; the TBI trucks all got flat tappets. Roller tappets didn't start in trucks until the "Vortec" motor in 96.
AFAIK all 880 blocks have the provisions for roller tappets cast into them, but not all are finished. At least I've never seen one that didn't. You might have to do some drilling & tapping though. Then you can get all the factory roller stuff; retainer plate, figure-8s, "spider" "tray" thing, etc. and install them to your block.
Night rider hit the head right on the nail; the TBI trucks all got flat tappets. Roller tappets didn't start in trucks until the "Vortec" motor in 96.
AFAIK all 880 blocks have the provisions for roller tappets cast into them, but not all are finished. At least I've never seen one that didn't. You might have to do some drilling & tapping though. Then you can get all the factory roller stuff; retainer plate, figure-8s, "spider" "tray" thing, etc. and install them to your block.
Not all originol TBI trucks left GM with flat tappet cams. There were some rollers.
Thanks guys. It looks like the provisions are there. I am assuming that I would need OEM style rollers with a spider kit to complete the installation. This budget build is turning out to be "not".
Yup, looks like the block is prepped; you just need the goodies.
I also have heard rumors of TBI truck/Caprice motors w roller lifters in em, but have never laid eyes on any such, personally. Seems like it would have represented an extraordinary mistake on the part of the factory to put that expensive stuff in those cheeeeeep built motors. Would only have happened in the most dire of circumstances, the likes of which I cannot imagine. I'd be more inclined to suspect that when such cases exist, they are the outcome of some sort of motor swappage, including service replacements perhaps.
Be aware that there are 2 different retainer plates, identical in every way except bolt hole spacing. Obviously the plate has to match whatever the block has. No way to identify it by application, that I know of; seems pretty much random.
You can swipe most of the stuff you need out of a junkyard/passenger car motor for the roller upgrade. Dog bones, spider, bolts to hold it down and the cam retaining plate (if it's got the right bolt spacing for your block as Sofa points out.
I'd still splurge for new lifters, though. You don't need to spend a mint. Stock replacements from a reputable manufacturer will work fine (just X-reference to an 92 Camaro, if you're not sure what to get).
Not sure how far you plan on going with this build, but one area you can save some money is that roller cams can be reused if they're in good shape. You can find a used LT4 HotCam from time to time for not a lot of money. It's a good entry level performance cam. If you want something more, there's always the aftermarket.
Thanks guys. It looks like the provisions are there. I am assuming that I would need OEM style rollers with a spider kit to complete the installation. This budget build is turning out to be "not".
Yep you just need the OEM roller parts.
If you are wanting budget and used. I may have something for you. I just pulled a part a 1987 roller 305 engine that was locked up. I have the spider, dog bones, cam retainer, lifters, pushrods. I will let you have it all for $50 + shipping
AFAIK all 880 blocks have the provisions for roller tappets cast into them, but not all are finished. At least I've never seen one that didn't. You might have to do some drilling & tapping though. Then you can get all the factory roller stuff; retainer plate, figure-8s, "spider" "tray" thing, etc. and install them to your block.
The lifter bore tops need to be machined to use dogbones. I've got a block that was cast to be roller ready, but not drilled or tapped, nor are the tops of the lifter bores machined properly to fit the dog bones. This seems to be a pretty unusual situation, as most of them appear to be dog-bone ready, just something to look out for.
Last edited by InfernalVortex; 07-01-2015 at 01:45 AM.
Not all originol TBI trucks left GM with flat tappet cams. There were some rollers.
never seen a TBI truck motor with roller lifters... maybe the vans and HD trucks that had the vortec heads and TBI in 96 and 97 would have a roller cam (which is the original oem application for the TBI intake that GM sells for vortec heads), but not a common pickup truck made before 96.. all passenger cars with the 305 and 350 got roller cams starting in 87, but not the trucks.
all that being said, the factory roller cam stuff should be easy enough to find in a junkyard: any 87-99 small block in a passenger car or 96-99 truck will have the parts, including all those 94-96 Caprices and other B bodies with LT1 and L99 engines in them.. any junkyard should have a few cars or trucks that have missing intake manifolds to make it easy to snag those parts..
...Be aware that there are 2 different cam retainer plates, identical in every way except bolt hole spacing. Obviously the plate has to match whatever the block has. No way to identify it by application, that I know of; seems pretty much random.
(BOLD mine)
I found this out too. Received a brand new '880' block from Chevrolet Performance Parts couple weeks ago. No problem with fitting the 'dog bones, i.e. OEM roller cam lifter guides' and spider retainer, as the block was machined flat in that area but the cam retainer plate I got from a TGO member does not fit. See attached pics. Hopefully he will chime in on year and block #, I should've asked prior.
Last edited by UltRoadWarrior9; 10-19-2015 at 06:19 PM.
Hopefully he will chime in on year and block #, I should've asked prior.
@UltRoadWarrior - sorry about that. I thought the cam retainer plates were once size fits all. The block the parts came off has 638 cast in the side. It is obviously a factory 350/5.7L/roller block/1 piece RMS. This came out of my 87 IROC, but at +0.030 and with crappy TBI heads, it was obviously rebuilt, and who knows what it came from (other than tracing the usage of "638" blocks).
never seen a TBI truck motor with roller lifters... maybe the vans and HD trucks that had the vortec heads and TBI in 96 and 97 would have a roller cam (which is the original oem application for the TBI intake that GM sells for vortec heads), but not a common pickup truck made before 96.. all passenger cars with the 305 and 350 got roller cams starting in 87, but not the trucks.
all that being said, the factory roller cam stuff should be easy enough to find in a junkyard: any 87-99 small block in a passenger car or 96-99 truck will have the parts, including all those 94-96 Caprices and other B bodies with LT1 and L99 engines in them.. any junkyard should have a few cars or trucks that have missing intake manifolds to make it easy to snag those parts..
The roller I ran across was in my uncles 1994 C1500 350 TBI he bought new off the dealership lot. Did the intake gaskets when the truck was 10 years old at about 150K. Factory roller cam in it. Have also pulled apart a few untouched factory G20 and G30 vans from the same time period with 305s and 350s that had factory roller cams.
(BOLD mine)
I found this out too. Received a brand new '880' block from Chevrolet Performance Parts couple weeks ago. No problem with fitting the 'dog bones, i.e. OEM roller cam lifter guides' and spider retainer, as the block was machined flat in that area but the cam retainer plate I got from a TGO member does not fit. See attached pics. Hopefully he will chime in on year and block #, I should've asked prior.
GM used two different style cam retainer plates. I bought a single roller GMPP timing set for my Express van and it came with both of the retainer plates and all the hardware included.
@UltRoadWarrior - sorry about that. I thought the cam retainer plates were once size fits all. The block the parts came off has 638 cast in the side. It is obviously a factory 350/5.7L/roller block/1 piece RMS. This came out of my 87 IROC, but at +0.030 and with crappy TBI heads, it was obviously rebuilt, and who knows what it came from (other than tracing the usage of "638" blocks).
"The 880 blocks began in mid 95 with the ending of the 638's" came from this page.
No worries Joe. Thanks for identifying that block# the larger cam plate came from. At least I have the mounting bolts!
Originally Posted by Fast355
GM used two different style cam retainer plates. I bought a single roller GMPP timing set for my Express van and it came with both of the retainer plates and all the hardware included.
That's good to know! I called a local dealership for a cam retainer plate for a 96 camaro w/350, part# 10168501, which they have in stock for $14. Plate only, no bolts lol
That's good to know! I called a local dealership for a cam retainer plate for a 96 camaro w/350, part# 10168501, which they have in stock for $14. Plate only, no bolts lol
Thanks! More valuable information.
So the 2 GM cam retainer plate part #'s are:
10168501
10088128
Which one fits the 880 block?
BTW, I'm just interested in the retainer plate at this point as I already have the mounting bolts and plan on using a double roller setup. I've not seen any double roller kits with retainer plates...
EDIT: Part # 10168501 has bolt hole center of 3.294in. "2nd design" meant for 880 block
Part # 10088128 has bolt hole center of 3.624in.
Either are $13 from Summit... Thanks for the help all.
Last edited by UltRoadWarrior9; 10-20-2015 at 03:47 PM.
Thanks! More valuable information.
So the 2 GM cam retainer plate part #'s are:
10168501
10088128
Which one fits the 880 block?
BTW, I'm just interested in the retainer plate at this point as I already have the mounting bolts and plan on using a double roller setup. I've not seen any double roller kits with retainer plates...
Find out the part number for a 1997 G1500 5.7.
Just a heads up MOST of these blocks require grinding to run a double roller. GM rates the single roller up to 6,500 rpm and uses them on the ZZ series.
I've used the GMPP single roller chain Fast mentioned- it works just dandy. Never an issue, fits without grinding, doesn't touch a factory-style timing chain cover (metal or plastic). Price is reasonable. Highly recommend.
The roller I ran across was in my uncles 1994 C1500 350 TBI he bought new off the dealership lot. Did the intake gaskets when the truck was 10 years old at about 150K. Factory roller cam in it. Have also pulled apart a few untouched factory G20 and G30 vans from the same time period with 305s and 350s that had factory roller cams.
Pulled a L05 350 out my dads late 80s or early 90s Chevy truck years ago and to our surprise it was a roller engine. I believe we were told after taking it to the machine shop it had factory 64cc heads also instead of the usual 76cc heads if I remember right.
Pulled a L05 350 out my dads late 80s or early 90s Chevy truck years ago and to our surprise it was a roller engine. I believe we were told after taking it to the machine shop it had factory 64cc heads also instead of the usual 76cc heads if I remember right.
I have not seen a 350 TBI swirl port that was not ~64cc. Never have seen a 76cc TBI head. The heavy duty 8.75:1 engines had a different piston than the light duty 9.3:1 engines, hence the compression difference. The B/D cars actually ran a flat top piston for their higher 9.6:1 compression ratio.
I have not seen a 350 TBI swirl port that was not ~64cc. Never have seen a 76cc TBI head. The heavy duty 8.75:1 engines had a different piston than the light duty 9.3:1 engines, hence the compression difference. The B/D cars actually ran a flat top piston for their higher 9.6:1 compression ratio.
I thought I heard they were 76cc. The one we tore into is actually the only one ive personally tore down. I cant remember what pistons it had. Been too long ago, older I get the more I seem to forget. I am certain it was the stock engine that came with the truck and it was roller engine. We re-used the cam and lifters on it
They're all 64cc like Fast said. -193 casting number, all swirlies (HD truck motors might have used a different head only because the factory liked to put big, fat 3/8" valve stems on the exhaust side, same as most boat engines, but all were swirlies that I've ever run into).
Pistons made the compression difference. I can confirm flattops in a B-car 350 TBI motor because I just tore one down two weekends ago. Virgin engine, factory flattops staring back at me. Truck motors, the vast majority that I've torn into were typical full-face-dished pistons with about 12-13cc dish volume (depending on who you ask on the spec).
They're all 64cc like Fast said. -193 casting number, all swirlies (HD truck motors might have used a different head only because the factory liked to put big, fat 3/8" valve stems on the exhaust side, same as most boat engines, but all were swirlies that I've ever run into).
Pistons made the compression difference. I can confirm flattops in a B-car 350 TBI motor because I just tore one down two weekends ago. Virgin engine, factory flattops staring back at me. Truck motors, the vast majority that I've torn into were typical full-face-dished pistons with about 12-13cc dish volume (depending on who you ask on the spec).
I had the 8.75:1 350 in my G-van. 4-bolt mains, forged crank, 18cc bathtub shaped dished pistons, 810 casting heads (65cc), intake/exhaust valve rotators, sodium filled exhaust valves, 3/8" valve stems, and a single roller timing chain.
06-27-2015, 04:55 PM
