ndndndnd

Reinstalled starter after fitting new starter solenoid (broke the old one when I overtightened the pole...) and now it makes this noise:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hK16...ature=youtu.be

Not sure what I did wrong. If I keep the engine running, smoke starts to come from roughly in the area of the starter motor. I didn't do the bolts up to the torque setting, but I did do them up jolly tight. No shims were used previously (when the starter worked fine...) and none were used to reinstall the starter.

Straws I'm grasping at:
1) Perhaps I didn't do the bolts up quite tight enough
2) Perhaps I put the spring from the old solenoid in the new solenoid, and they're different enough to be an issue
3) Act of god.
4) Other.

Can anyone confirm this is the sound of the starter getting hung up on the flywheel? I can confirm the bendix does get withdrawn as I checked it was clear of the flywheel before attempting to restart it.

Any advice or wisdom is welcome!

Cheers,

Neil

redneckjoe

sure sounds like the starter is spinning with the flywheel/flexplate while the engine is running. maybe it disengages after you turn it off? crawl under it and look carefully while its running to see.

ndndndnd

Ok cool - your theory matches mine...

But what could cause that to happen? The only thing I can think of is some sort of misalignment. I've had the starter motor apart and everything seems to move freely enough...

Leads me back to wondering if the solenoid spring isn't strong enough to withdraw the bendix, but that doesn't seem very likely.

redneckjoe

it might need to be shimmed?
if you had the starter apart, perhaps it was mistakingly put back together incorrectly? or broken parts inside?

heres some info on starters with a few diagrams, etc.
http://www.autozone.com/repairguides...00c1528005136c

ndndndnd

Thanks for the link - I'll have a good look through that tonight.

I'm just a bit puzzled - I've removed and reinstalled the starter before without shims and it's worked fine.

I guess I'd better take it off and open it up and see if everything is moving freely or if I disturbed something that's inhibiting the movement of the plunger and lever.

The new solenoid is a tru-tech, and I'm not convinced of it's quality - I'm a bit limited for buying new solenoids in the UK! I thought I was buying something from 'Standard motor products' but this tru-tech thing arrived...

tealman92

During starting you can clearly hear the tooth mesh is too tight between the starter and fly wheel. While running your solenoid isnt disengageing from the flywheel. Remove the starter check the solenoid and before you reinstall use a shim. It shouldnt sound like that while cranking

ndndndnd

Hi Tealman,

Thanks, that's really useful info - the experience be of what's 'right' and 'normal' that I don't have!

By 'shouldn't sound like that' do you mean the way the starter labours when I first turn the key? Because it has always done that, which could suggest the starter has actually never been shimmed properly...

tealman92

Exactly

ndndndnd

Great - another lovely present from the previous owner...

Thanks for the advice Tealman, I had always wondered why it laboured - I'd assumed the motor was on its way out.

ndndndnd

I haven't had a chance to add any shims yet, but could the overrunning clutch in the starter be a factor?

ndndndnd

Can anyone add anything to my overrunning clutch theory?

My understanding of what might be happening is if the overrun clutch is jammed, then the clutch won't release the bendix when I release the key. This will leave the starter internals connected to the bendix and turning with the engine. Without the bendix being released by the clutch to spin freely, the solenoid spring can't properly withdraw the bendix from the flywheel, leading to the starter internals continuing to spin with the engine running, producing a horrible grinding noise and smoke.

Does that sound plausible? I did remove some debris (flywheel shield!) from inside the starter, so it's possible I dislodged something into the overrun clutch.

When I remove the starter next, should the bendix turn freely in one direction and then lock in the other direction? Can I test if the clutch is releasing the bendix like this?

Thanks for any advice. I did see overrun clutches are quite cheap on Rockauto... but postage was for some reason extortionate! Same with the shims...

redneckjoe

yes, if you push the gear out with a screwdriver, it should spring back.
it should also spin free in one direction.

i would try shimming it first to see if it makes a difference. do you have shims? if not, make one out of some thin sheet metal.

ndndndnd

Thanks RNJ - just the info I needed. When I next get to the car, I'll pull off the starter and see how the bendix behaves. Then I'll shim with something before I put it back on. I might try and see if I can find some thin washers that'll serve as shims.

I'll just have to twiddle my thumbs until next weekend when I can get another look at the car.

Cheers guys!

gbettner

iTrader: (2)

I've grabbed a "chevy 350 starter" out of my parts pile before and had issues. Come to find out there are some with 9 tooth drive gears and some with 11 tooth drive gears. Sounded terrible! Not sure which years take what but you may check that. Especially if it's not original engine.

ndndndnd

Thanks for the suggestion, but as far as I know both the engine and starter are original to the car. The starter also worked before and only started misbehaving after I'd reinstalled it so I don't think mismatched parts are my problem.

ndndndnd

Well I managed to find some GM shims in the UK (thanks realsteel.co.uk!) so I set about pulling the starter for the umpteenth time to take another look. The bendix and overrunning clutch seemed behave properly - locking in one direction, but spinning freely (but not too freely) in the other. So I guess it's not the bendix. I cleaned and greased the bendix shaft and checked the mechanism moved smoothly and easily while I had it apart.

I reinstalled the starter without the solenoid (I couldn't get poking a screwdriver through the casing to work) so I could engage the bendix in the flywheel. I could slide the bendix into the flywheel, but no amount of force could pull the bendix back again! I tried using two and then four shims, but each time I still couldn't withdraw the bendix.

So I'm scratching my head again. The flywheel teeth don't look chewed, and neither does the bendix (I don't think). I've googled the problem a bit more and the best answer I've found so far is 'check the bolts are lined up properly'. The bolts are OEM, so I'm assuming there shouldn't be any real slack there, but I'll check tomorrow anyway.

Has anyone any suggestions? The only things left I can think of are replacing the bendix (a stab in the dark), replacing the starter (an expensive stab in the dark), or replacing the flywheel (an expensive stab in the dark and a PITA!).

Black_TA

Almost sounds like a wining alternator.

bigal55

iTrader: (1)

How does the Bendix mesh with the flywheel? When engaged, there should be a small amount of clearance between the teeth, that is to say, you need clearance on the sides and at the top of the teeth to the bottom between the teeth. I want to say the clearance is in the 0.020 to 0.030 inch range but don't quote me on that. You do know that depending on where you place the shims, you will either bring the teeth closer together or farther apart. Inside will increase clearance and outside will decrease clearance. HTH!


Found this: http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/w..._tbstr01-2.pdf

ndndndnd

Funnily enough when I clicked on that link I found I'd already downloaded it! I've been scouring the Internet for any information I can find...

Well I got under the car with my trusty paperclip and, er. .. well I dunno. Clip seems to find enough room? It's one of those things when if you've not seem it before you don't know if it's 'right'. I added a shim anyway. The motor still laboured at first when fired up but then seemed to spin more freely. Car didn't start but that was because the last drops of petrol seem to have evaporated away! This car's been parked too long...

Before I put the shims in, I pulled the starter again and opened it up once more. I cleaned around the bendix and put a tiny bit of lm grease on the shaft and on the levers between the bendix and the solenoid and checked everything moved really freely. The armature seemed quite stiff when reinstalled, I could only just turn it from the bendix with my fingers. Is that normal?

When I put the starter back in without the solenoid I could mesh the bendix into the flywheel quite easily but it wouldn't come back out. However when my wife turned the engine by hand the bendix came free and I could pull it back out. So I reinstalled everything and had another go, first with one shim and then with two. The third time I tried to start (engine didn't fire due to no petrol) the starter turned very slowly and smoke started to appear...

At the weekend I'll pull the starter yet again and try to power it up off the car to see if it functions properly in isolation. I'm running out of ideas for why the starter is misbehaving like this! I really can't figure out what I'm doing differently from before...

tealman92

Definetly bench test it

MSgt Luttrell

Sounds like that starter is done buddy.

ndndndnd

I think you may be right, but I'll get it off the car again and getting it spinning on a bench and see what it does.

I was reading another thread on here where a guy said he had starter troubles after bending the starter bolts because he let the starter hang on them while doing them up... might be another thing I can check.

ndndndnd

Well, I bench tested the starter today.

Damn thing worked perfectly. Span up fast and smooth and the solenoid snapped in and out as hard as you like.

Bolts also perfectly straight.

Damn.

I guess I'm now looking at debris from the inspection cover grinding against something inside the bellhousing, which I guess means pulling the transmission to have a look inside...

Ugh.

MSgt Luttrell

Unless the flywheel is damaged, the only thing it could be is that starter; try a new starter.

tealman92

It could also be that once the starter is under a load is when it acts up.

ndndndnd

Hmmm...

I did have my wife turn the engine over while I looked and I couldn't see any obvious damage or cracking to the flywheel.

I guess I could still stick a new starter in it, but it just bugs me that I really can't see anything wrong with it. I'm no expert mind.

I still need to see if I can set up a camera and film the car trying to start, see if I can watch the bendix retract.

I need to pull the T5 anyway (there's a gear selection issue) so I might buy a floor transmission jack and take it out anyway. It's either that or pay someone £200 to ship the car somewhere and multiples of that again to fix it...



And the car was THIS close to being driveable! Grrr....

ndndndnd

Quick update:

gbettner

iTrader: (2)

Did you understand what I said in previous post? Were you able to eliminate that possibility of wrong size drive gear? Is there metal shavings on drive gear?

ndndndnd

Yep, I checked the pinion and it has 9 teeth as it should, both flywheel and starter appear compatible and probably original to the car.

However it now seems unlikely the sound is from the starter - my video shows the starter withdrawing the bendix and THEN the grinding sound starting. The noise is still connected to engine speed therefore, with the starter not connected to the engine, the sound must be from elsewhere; I'm guessing some debris caught up in the flywheel inside the bellhousing.

I'll try to upload the video and get it posted.

ndndndnd

As promised, here's the thrilling video:


As you can hear, the sound beings after the bendix is withdrawn, and still responds to engine speed. So I guess it's not the starter after all..

redneckjoe

with all due respect,...you may as well have shown that video to a blind man, lol.
but it does sound tight to me. perhaps try 1 more thin shim?

tealman92

The starter still sounds bad. It shouldnt sound like that while trying to start.

ndndndnd

I'll try another shim on the motor.

Any suggestions on the grinding noise though?

redneckjoe

the best suggestion i could give is to use a mechanics stethascope or long screwdriver to your ear, and probe around carefully while the car is running. i'd start at the starter, but it could be coming from any where. i'm sure if you take your time, you can get an idea where the noise is coming from.

does the noise go away when you push the clutch in?

knightfire

Was all of the accessory drive belts taken off the engine in the last video?

I'm leaning towards the alternator bearings being the problem.

hockeyman48

Power steering pump......check fluid

ndndndnd

Bingo.

I pulled off the alternator belt and started the car. Same noise... then realised the noise was still coming from the front of the engine compartment, and my eyes fell on the power steering pump. I pulled the belt off that and started the car again.

hockeyman48

Sometimes its the simple stuff that fools us..

ndndndnd

Bled the power steering at the weekend, and the sound disappeared.

For the first time in two years, I've actually had the car sat there rumbling away at a steady base idle without any rattling or sickening grinding noises. Sounds lovely. I stood behind it grinning like a fool while my wife blipped the throttle.

I still can't believe the power steering could make such a loud, horrible noise simply because it hadn't been bled properly!

Cheers everyone, now to move onto the next problem...!