Mrbanados

I had a th350 in which I pulled out, motor is a 2pc rms with 168 tooth flexplate. I just need to know what year camaro do I order the flywheel, starter, clutch kit for? I know I need a 153 tooth flywheel...

I need to update my specs, I got a new camaro..

jmd

iTrader: (4)

Make sure your block has the 3 starter holes, not just 2.

Clutch is 83-92. Starter is manual 83-92 or any 93-97 V8 F or 94-96 Caprice.
Flywheel is 82-84 16lb.

Mrbanados

What if it just has two?

Mrbanados

Will a 153 tooth fit on the 2 pc rms crank?

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Install the 3rd. Won't work without it. Don't argue, don't protest, don't tell us about "Summit says this starter will work with either flywheel" because what they don't tell you even in the fine print is that it works if the block has the 3rd hole, just do it. Preferably before you put the block in the car as it's a REAL PITA to do it accurately laying on the ground up under the car, and it MUST be accurate.


Here's what it will look like. This is a 400 block I drilled for the same purpose. You need the circled one.






Sure; if it's one for a 2-pc crank. You need one for 83-85 Camaro/Firebird V8, which will fit it. You will find that there are 2 such: a heavy (22lb or so) one for the LG4 grocery-cart setup, to store enough energy for that gutless motor to disturb the car off the line in spite of the crippling gears; and a light (16 lb more or less) one for the more favorably equipped L69. You'll probably like the light one ALOT better.

novaderrik

GM built millions of V8 cars from 55-85 with a small flywheel/flexplate: pretty much every low hp base engine in midsize and compact cars had the small ring gear.. most every passenger car 283 and 327 had the small flywheel. in general, if it got a 4 barrel carb it got the bigger ring gear, but even the high strung 302 that came in the Z/28 from 67-69 had the small flywheel and 10.5" clutch because it's lighter.. the only real exception was the mid 70's, when everything except maybe the Monzas had the big 168 tooth ring gears and a lot of the 350 and 400 blocks weren't even tapped for the starter for the smaller one, but for some reason the big blocks were..

danryanm

If you only have two bolt holes, you can still get the job done without drilling, though it will cost more. An aftermarket scattershield (like the one from Lakewood or Quicktime) will allow you to run the 168-tooth flywheel and starter. The trick then will be in finding a clutch kit that is made for the larger flywheel and has the correct number of splines for the input shaft. Strangely enough, I found one for the 168-to-14 spline setup before I ever found one for the 26 spline (Astro vans where weird like that).

Mrbanados

What about one of those mini adjustable starters? Ok I got it now, flywheel from a l69 vin g right?

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

They're perfectly fine, once you install the 3rd hole. (if your particular block is from before around 1978 and therefore doesn't already have it)

Mrbanados

What do i do about pilot bearing/bushing? I'll give the block another once over and look for that third hole

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Install one.

Mrbanados

Does anyone know where I can get the bracket, line and reservoir for the master cylinder besides the junkyard. These cars are scarce out here.

Mrbanados

Do you know what size bolts to get? I believe the flywheel bolts are 7/16 x20 and pressure plate bolts are 3/16 x20 but what length? There are a few lengths available when I look it up for an 85 camaro. Also what size bolts for bell housing to trans?

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Flywheel bolts are flywheel bolts. Doesn't matter what length they are; they're flywheel bolts.

Even more so for pressure plate bolts.

DO NOT substitute ANYTHING else for either of them!!! At least, not if you've grown attached to your feet, and would like to keep them. Remember, all that stuff is whirling around at engine RPM about 6" from your right heel, and if it comes loose, ... you may not enjoy living the rest of your life without any feet as much as you did while you still had them.

Here's a really crappy pic of a clutch bolt. Observe the diameter of the part behind the threads. Unlike ANY "standard" bolt, it is LARGER than the threads; much like a starter bolt, that section goes about 3/8" down into the flywheel and fits tight to the clutch, making a sort of dowel pin effect to POSITIVELY locate the clutch on the flywheel.



Head to your local speed shop and pick up the Mr Gasket ones. Cheeeep, safe, and effective.

Mrbanados

K gotcha, I'll see if the local auto parts store has those. What about the bellhousing to the trans? Where can I get those? Also, completely forgot, I need the torque arm mount for the trans! Complete with the clamshell, really having trouble finding it. Like I said these cars are real scarce in the junkyard.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Trans to BH if memory serves are 10mm x whatever the "std" thread is for that size, 1.5mm I think x about 50mm, washer head, hex & torx drive.

You're on your own with the TA thing. AFAIK only way to get it is off a car.

jmd

iTrader: (4)

trans. to bell housing are 15mm hex, T50(?) Torx M12x1.75; not sure on length.

Crossmember with torque arm attachment makes sense. Spending good money for a trans.-mount torque arm does not.

Mrbanados

Alright I'll see if I can find those! Got the flywheel bolts, going to pick up the pressure plate bolts from the dealership. I just found out that I don't have that other hole for the starter :/
and not really with drilling a perfectly straight hole lying on my back lol. Quick question, is the flywheel supposed to sit flush with the crank? The flexplate sat about a 1/4 further back towards the crank..

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

No that looks about right. Thimk about it, a flex plate is a piece of sheet metal, but a flywheel is AHELLUVALOT more meat.

Well then, only one thing you can do... don't forget I tried to warn you...

Also, looks like there's the carcass of a pilot bushing in your crank; that needs to come out, and a new something get put up in there. Your trans won't last long if you run it like that.

Mrbanados

Thanks for your help!! That's what I figured about the flywheel/flexplate. Just wanted to double check! already called my machine guy and asked him if he can drill the hole for me, I'll double check on the crank about the pilot bushing. It felt like it was apart of the crank.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

You can get a pilot bushing at the store and see if it goes in... if it does, then there's not one already there.

Mrbanados

The clutch kit I got has a pilot bearing and a bushing, I'll check when I get home

danryanm

If you don't want to drill the hole (or you try and fail) you can still get this done. There was an option for the second-gen cars to use the 168-tooth flywheel and the 26x1 1/8 input shaft. Here are some part numbers that would work (Advance carries these):

MU5505-1A Perfection clutch kit
50-6504 Perfection flywheel

You will be able to use any GM starter that uses the staggered bolt pattern, but you will still have to use an aftermarket bell-housing, so this will cost more. The good news is the aftermarket bell housing will make it that much easier to install a TKO should you choose to do so later.

Mrbanados

I'll give the drill and tap a shot as that's a lot cheaper! Those aftermarket bellhousings are real pricey!

danryanm

Amen to that! I managed to get an overstock one for $400, but I had to grind some of the flange to clear my headers. I was about ready to puke when I touched that grinder to that beautiful, rediculously expensive hunk of steel.

Mrbanados

Does this look about right? That's the center for the hole I'm going to drill. 1/16 and then 5/16 right? I need to find something to use as a guide

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Yes the hole in my pic is right. Worked flawlessly for MANY years.

I'd suggest using a starter as the guide for the hole. Bolt it on as perfectly straight as you can with the one hole you have. If it's rotated, the drive gear won't engage the flywheel correctly. Pay attention to which way the error is: if the drive is too close to the flywheel, you can always add shims to move it away; but if it's too far from the flywheel to begin with, you can't correct it at install time, and you're hosed. Use a long bit that fits close to the holes in the starter to create the mark for where to drill. A 3/8" should be adequate: you can then wrap it with thin box tape or something to decrease the clearance to the hole. Maybe get one of those ones that has the little pointy tip, rather than a standard tip; and use the point like a punch to mark the site. Or, make a punch out of a starter bolt by grinding the end down to a point while it's spinning in a drill press. Accuracy is important. Then remove the starter and use a sequence of small bits. Something like 1/16", 5/32", 1/4", the tap size for 3/8"-16, and the size for the bolt shank pilot. Measure a starter bolt to get that, or find the largest bit that will fit into the hole in the starter. If memory serves it's 13/32" but I could be wrong, seems like 25/64" (3/8"-16 Heli-Coil size) was slightly too small.

The hole MUST BE accurately located and perpendicular to the surface. Remember, you only get one shot, because once you start drilling, you can't move the hole. If it gets messed up, the block is pretty much scrap, as far as this use is concerned. To get it perpendicular, make the oil pan surface level, then use a drill that has a bubble level, especially for the initial (smallest) hole.

Mrbanados

sorry, meant to upload my picture, I used the biggest transfer punch with the starter bolted in to get a perfectly center hole. Used a straight edge and measured the distance from the edge of the block to the starter.

Thanks for all your help, I will take this info and give it my best shot tonight when I get off work. I've also heard of cutting a piece of 3/8 brake line, bolting up the starter and shoving it in the hole, then the drill bit to help keep the bit straight. I hope all goes well lol, this is the only thing stopping me from the manual swap!

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Looks close, at least; might be a bit toward the edge of the block but of course I can't "measure" that in the pic.

If you have any uncertainty in that distance, make the hole slightly too far away from the edge... that will tend to rotate the starter slightly in the direction of moving the drive closer to the flywheel, correctable by adding shims, instead of farther away from it which is NOT correctable.

Gotta be REAL careful not to bust the bolt hole out into that gauge hole.

jmd

iTrader: (4)

I think you've got it figured out. Using a sleeve in a starter to act as a drill guide is legit.

Mrbanados

Got it all drilled and tapped! Such a pain in the *** to tap it. Btw I did it with the motor still in the car. I'll take a picture of it in the morning. Test fitted the flywheel and starter and it looks good. I'll crank it over and see what happens!

Mrbanados

Started it yesterday to check everything before I put the trans in and everything is all good! I already cut the hole for the shifter, got the clutch, pressure plate and bellhousing on, I think I have to make the shifter hole extra long because of my dual 3" exhaust is in the way and it's all one piece 😁. One I get the trans and driveshaft in all I have left to do is install the pedals and the hydraulic system. So excited!

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Great! It's always good to hear that something worked out.

jmd

iTrader: (4)

Ask questions.
Follow advise.
Drive car.
Amazing how that works.

Mrbanados

Having a little trouble getting the trans on the bellhousing. It won't go any further in. It's stuck right where the bevel part of the trans won't go into the bellhousing. Pilot bushing is flush with the crank! What gives?

jmd

iTrader: (4)

There are only a couple things that can stop you there.

The usual suspect; the clutch disc not being lined up with the pilot bearing / bushing. Clutch alignment tools don't work well without wiggling and holding them centered while tightening the PP bolts.

And the bearing retainer at the bellhousing fit.

Quickest way to get it done is to have the hydraulics bolted up, have a helper press the pedal, and grab the tail of the transmission and swing it around in a circle while pushing forward. The disc being loose between PP & FW will let the disc splines and pilot bushing line up.

Mrbanados

Alright, still having trouble finding a clutch reservoir! I have the slave, master and hydraulic line. No places sell it new. As soon as I get one I'll try that out. Thanks again!

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Looks like the clutch gear bearing retainer is a tight fit into the hole in the BH.


Wiggle the trans around. At each extreme of motion (left / right / up / down) tighten all bolts that you can BY HAND as far as they can be tightened BY HAND. Don't use a tool on ANYTHING until the trans is seated.


What will probably happen is, not much for the first couple of iterations; then all of a sudden, it'll realize you really mean business and it will capitulate, and it will slide up in there like nothing was ever wrong. It's just morally obligated to put up a fight one last time.

Mrbanados

I tell you what, whatever it is had me cursing up a storm! Lol I think I have an old input shaft lying around somewhere. I'm going to pull the bell housing one more time, pull the clutch and pressure plate off, re align. Going to pick up a reservoir today hopefully. One way or another this trans is going on without breaking stuff lol. I'm so ready to drive this thing! It's been down for almost 6 months!

danryanm

Input shafts definitely work better than those cheap alignment tools (which really only get you close.) Some have discovered the input shaft is slightly too long for some cranks, so it may behoove you to compare the measurements of pilot recess to bell housing face against the input shaft tip to transmission face. Even when they are right, the slightest amount of corrosion on the input tip or excess oil on the bushing will make it seem impossibly tight. I had to free mine up by starting it in gear with the pedal down (just make sure your clutch is disengaging before you attempt such a thing.) Whatever your snag is, it will all be worth it in the end. Including my engine build, nothing I have done to the car woke it up as much as the manual conversion. Good luck!

jmd

iTrader: (4)

Good.

If you have the alignment tool or input in the disc / pilot,
in, wiggle it all around, and hold it a little above center while you tighten the PP bolts, things should work fine. I've never used an input shaft, only the plastic and it's always worked fine because I did the above.

Yeah, get that reservoir and this job wrapped up and enjoy your car! Almost there!

Mrbanados

She's alive!! And she moves!!!! Woohoo!! Just went back and forth in the garage but she moves! No weird noises lol. Need a shifter and the torque arm mount clamshell to get it on the road 😁