3.8TransAM

I hate it
I dont like it
I plan on slaying this beast

Slow speed traffic crawls to just barely blupping the throttle to get the car on a slight roll its aggravating...

Gone thru my timing tables, the Ve tables , closed loop TPS and everythign and anything else in between that i have found and that i can change thru TC. Have the hac in front of me and going thru a page at a time until i find it, then im gonna change the source code(pray i dont have to call Bruce:-) ) and then hopefully i can figure out how to minimize it... Anyone know the locale for it in %8d (save me some time lol)

I dont the the fact of it being there, i hate the hanging rpm and the slow speed surging im unable to eliminate, i can minimize it, but i cant make it go away. Ever drive 80/94 in chicago during rushhour bumper to bumper? u know why i hate it now dont u :-)

Later
Jeremy
276 pages of hack to flip thru more posted then.

3.8TransAM

IAC MANUAL Throttle Follower vs. MPH

starting at L86B2 should be FCB 0 starting out.

this is before ther BARO FORM PARAMETERS and after the IDLEP SPEED TIMEOUT STEPS vs. COOLANT tabe in the hac?

If this is said table it accounts for iac steps vs. mph... Basically u need more steps per se. at 100 mph than u would at 10 or evne 20 mph... so it would be possible to make this larger and more gradual curve from say 0 mph on up to 64, just lowering the step count as the mph decreases.

Is this the nefarious follower that i am looking for?
thanks
Jeremy

3.8TransAM

Newbie tips : From a newbie

the above mentioned is the throttle follower code: It is located at the same point on the ANJF and AUJP bins as it is on the ANHT hac.

Load your bin in PP2.
Then go tp Edit Buffer Command

The address, such as L86B2 will be on the left side of the screen and appropriately titled address so u cant mess it up :-)

The part u need to concern yourself is with the 6B2 section of the address. U can scroll up or down screens/pages when editing in PP2 using the page up and page down keys.

Scroll/page down until u get to the 6__ section of the address and when u get there trying going left and seeing where u end up then key in until u get to the appropriate address section.

Once there u can verify your location by using the FCB which equates to the decimal of the number, which will be displayed in hex on PP2.

Using this example
FCB 0 = 00 in hex as well
FCB 4 = 50 steps
FCB 8 = 100 steps
FCB 12 = 150 steps

this is figured out by hex=12

hex value * 12.5 = step count

12*12.5= 150steps at 64 mph and 04*12.5 =50 steps at 4 mph

If u decide to change anything(I do not recommend making any changes unless u have an idea of what is going on here and have been familiarizing yourself with tuning by doing it) remember to save it and close it out then reopen it in TC before doing anythign else so your checksum is reset

Rbob, Bruce if u guys see this , please feel free to comment or point out/correct mistakes i may have made . This is new to me, but i figured doing it in steps as i have may help the next guy out whos pulling out hair trying to edit code like i was

thank u guys(specially bruce, he beat it into me over a 3 hr phone call)

Jeremy

RBob

iTrader: (1)

That devilish IAC rears it's ugly head again. I am not surprised, nothing wrong with a little whip cracking to tame it down either. I took a semi-quick look at the code and it appears as the table at $86B2 is either a minimum IAC step count adder or possibly a minimum IAC TF step count. As long as the counts are low I wouldn't worry about it too much. More of an anti-stall thing (if i am correct about the table usage).

Here are the other TF parameters:

To disable the TF set L865E to 0. My preference for the TF is to reduce the gain. The gain is a multiplier that defines how many IAC TF steps there are vs. the TPS value.

This is at L865D. A gain of 150% is a lot. I like to set it so that the max IAC TF steps are reached at 100% TPS. A 1-for-1 deal.

There are a couple of other things to check. As the A/C compressor cycles on and off the IAC steps can change. Same with the power steering pressure switch (if installed).

This can also happen if one of the switches are bad and signal the ECM that there is a change.

RBob.

JohnL

Hmmm. Pardon the pun, but I'm not "following" this too well.

Is the purpose of the Throttle Follower to open the IAC up (increased IAC steps) with increased TPS so that when you get off the throttle quickly, the IAC lets the RPM drop a little more slowly so that the Idle Mode code can control idle rpm smoothly?

John

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Heck of a question. In the whole scheme of things, who knows. I say this in humor. Why, because, well, I haven't been able to ask a GM engineer why they do it. (I know that sounds a little on the smart aleck side, but it is not meant to be). A lot of our OEM EFI work and why things are done slowly come to light. Yes, I'm grinning. . .

From what I have been able to gather the throttle follower (TF) has two purposes, emissions and stall control.

With a quick throttle lift there is fuel sitting on the manifold walls that is going to suddenly evaporate and be drawn into the chamber. This causes a rich spike that drives up the the HC in the collection bag.

By delaying the closure of airflow this fuel has a chance to burn off in a cleaner way. About a year ago someone here was having problems passing emissions. The machine was picking up copious levels of HC whenever the operator lifted the throttle. This lead to fnding that the IAC TF extend delays had been shortened, along with a reduced TF gain.

Increasing the TF decay delay and gain helped immensely.

As for stall control, an IAC that hangs open 5 or 10 steps until 2-3 MPH is reached (coast down) helps in preventing the engine from cutting out. And typically is not even noticable.

RBob.

Grumpy

It's an emissions thing.
And, for drivibility that the average person would like.

Needless to say the second part, upsets the folks that like responsiveness.

And ditto to what Bob said.
I generally have a T/F adder of like 5, in the GN. Hmm, I'll have to look at what the truck's is. The truck on sudden throttle lifts, being TBI has a huge rich spike before the DFCO hits.

JPrevost

I limited my TF steps to 15, , and it works great. That's in a different system but I feel your pain, definatly tame it down. All your friends will be envious when you blip the throttle and the idle comes right down while there new EFI stuff just hangs around.
BTW, I think I might be getting better city milage every since I limited my throttle follower steps. I bet it's because of the shearing of fuel and no more high rpms when I come to a prompt stop after throttle and getting cut off by some 2 bit bimbo freshman here on campus.
How is it a stall saver option? I've never felt it help keep my car from stalling.... ever. Even when the tune was way off it never helped, actually made things worse sometimes with super high in gear idle. By reducing it's activity I've gained throttle chrispness that'll rival many a port injection systems of the same era (before obd2).

3.8TransAM

Appears as if i am definitely on the right track............its still there but much improved from before as i can see it on the tach but i no longer feel the car actually surge so its going the right way

Going to play with it some more this week as well

Coming home from the ladies t-nite in 1-2 inches of snow, it sure seemed as if my low rpm and low tps driving was smoother than it used to and almost no surge/jmpy feeling unless i hit it hard enuff to start stalling the converter. definite improvement , with more experimentation to follow
thanks guys
Jeremy

PS I never should have dipped into code, now im jonesing for more things to do and experiments to try and i dont need any silly editor hmmmmmmmmmmmm scary thing is, what happens when i can start writing code? Could u explain that to me in a few hrs bruce? lol

Grumpy

Wait til ya just start working in Source code.

3.8TransAM

dont remind me :-) Ill get there eventually, one small victory at a time :-)
thanks for all the help bruce and Rbob
Jeremy

Scott_92RS

So to set the max steps, I'd need to set L865E to whatever value I wanted, 0 = 0 steps, 255 = 255 steps? If I did this, would I need to even mess with the gain percentage?

91L98Z28

Well, if you turned it completely off (to zero), then I don't think the gain would do a darn thing. just depends what you want to do.

i actually experimented with this today. I'm running AXXD (a 5.0 5spd bin) which has been set up for my L98/T56 combo. I found that the AXXD throttle follower gain was 200% (!). I set it down to 125% and the car is much nicer. I plan to play to try 150% and 100% and see how it responds there too. Oh, I think I bumped the max steps down from 50 to 40 too (don't have my notes in front of me). It used to be, I could pull away from a stop easily just fine, or very hard just fine, but if I wanted to pull away from a stop somewhere in the middle, it was VERY hard to control the "launch rpm".. either i'd slightly overshoot and send the motor off to 2000rpm, or slightly undershoot and bog it. it's now MUCH easier to modulate throttle at moderate loads from a stop with my six speed. (it doesn't help that the 1st gear in a T56 is 2.66 and I have a 3.23 rear.. really nead a 3.73).

novass

iTrader: (1)

Just checking that I am doing this right. Opened my bin in PP software and went to 0065D (which should be L865d) and the value in the cell was FF = 255 and 0065E cell value was 1E = 30. (Still trying to get a handle on this code stuff)


So, on my original axxf (305 a4) bin the follower slope was 255 and step was 30. The new bin I am working on for my manual conversion AXXC has 255 follower slope and 50 steps.

Look like I will be experementing with this once the weather gets better!!

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Looks like the correct locations ($8D), and . . . that is a lot of gain. I can imagine that it would make the throttle a little touchy.

If there is any possibility that the engine is airflow limited via the TB set the max TF steps high and the gain low. I like to use a gain setting where max TF steps are reached as 100% TPS is reached.

RBob.

Jaysz28

iTrader: (30)

so for those of us (namely me) that are source code dumb.... is this something that can be adjusted in TC? I haven't looked as I am at work, but this sounds like it *might* solve my slow idle drop off. I had already played with the DFCO settings with just a slight improvement. Right now when I push in the clutch, the rpms hang at 1250 or so until the car comes to a complete stop. Once I feel the car rock back, the rpms drop to 750. Very annoying. I like crisp throttle response and hate to hear the motor hanging just above idle....

now if I can fix that first start rpm flair up I'll be pleased, but I think I located that info in another post......

91L98Z28

it's not in tunercat, but you can download the TDF editor and start to build your own TDF. that's what I'm doing. it takes a bit of time to get used to, but after that it's great.

Jaysz28

iTrader: (30)

I'll give that a shot once I get home from work. Really wish I would've brought my laptop to work on a slow night like this.....

So what exactly am I looking at in the attached screen shot???

91L98Z28

the definition screen for a single constant in the tunercat TDF editor.

specifically, the constant for the iac throttle follower slope.

all of the "settigns" on that screen tell tunercat how to work with a given value in the .BIN.

it makes more sense if you download the editor and look at an existing TDF that you already have, to see how they work.

BOWTYE8

Well this is my first attempt at a tunerpro ecu edit(Thanks Mark) . I created 2 constants in Tunerpro. Throttle follower-slope gain @ addy 65D and Throttle Follower-Stepping @65E. Both displays they above 160 and 50 in Tuner pro.
Am I on the right track here?


Extra note:
I would like to "thank all for their contributions"- I know its been a while since I have(years). I am trying to get back into it all. many accomplishments in the last few years
Dennis

ULTM8Z

Just contacted TunerCat about this issue on $8D. He went ahead and modified the TDF and e-mailed it to me.

I've already begun modifying the constants and, together with changing the DFCO values, I'm getting really nice response from the IAC.

Grumpy, I'm also taking your advice about having 0 idle steps- setting the idle requested RPM 50 or so RPM less than the mechanical setting on the throttlebody). I think I'm also going to experiment with setting the spark advance/retard idle speed correction values to zero as well. This will keep the spark advance from bouncing around now that the ECM is being relieved of duty (so to speak) in the idle speed responsibility.

All of these things combined is producing very nice decel characteristics. Not done yet though, a little less timer value and I think it will be perfect.

Here's the reply from Tunercat.
**********************
I've added three Constants to the attached Definition File that might help. They are Throt. Follow Extend Decay Timer (Drive)' and 'Throt Follower Extend Decay Timer Adder' and 'Throt. Follow Extend Decay Timer (P/N)'. These first two values determine how quickly the throttle follower IAC steps are taken out to allow the idle RPM to drop back to normal when not in P/N. The total decay timer value (in milliseconds, msec) is calculated as follows:

Timer msec = Vehicle Speed x Throt Follower Extend Decay Timer Adder + Throttle Follower Extend Decay Timer

The smaller this value is, the faster the idle should return to normal. Try it out and let me know if it helps.

When in P/N the Timer value is equal to the Throt. Follow Extend Decay Timer (P/N) constant.

The extend delay timer is the delay time in milliseconds between corrections to the IAC motor position when the ECM is taking out throttle follower steps so the shorter this delay, the faster the ECM should take out the throttle follower steps and the faster the RPM should come back down.

The vehicle speed is in MPH.
**********************

Go ahead and e-mail Tunercat if you want this new $8D file. Tell him that you want the one with the updated throttle follower constant. He returns e-mails within one day (and sometimes sooner!).

Kudos to Tunercat for the fantastic customer support.

Grumpy

The spark part is important.
And you want to watch how your idle dead bands are set.

While I haven't worried about how much or fast the IAC has run in the past, I'm a lil more concerned about it now.

It'll run wonderfully like this, just gotta watch that things are close. ie within 35 RPM with a deadband of 50. That way the IAC is about as inert as it's going to be. Least that's what works for me.

ULTM8Z

Is this a statement of concurrence or opposition to the spark correction idea?

Also, what does the term "dead bands" mean?

PLANT PROTECTION

iTrader: (6)

Another word for deadband in this situation would be tolerance, + or - the desired idle speed, from what I understand before the IAC is used to correct for the error.

Is there any reason to use the decay timer adder? I doubt the delay needs to be closer than 12.5 msec. Also, what is L865F field used for?

TRAXION

I have a couple questions / observations.

1) Are we sure it is 150% for AUJP and ANHT? I know that hac says 150% ... but is that correct? When calculating the slope percent according to how other percentages are calculated it looks like 75% and not 150%.

2) Rob - you said "I like to set it so that the max IAC TF steps are reached at 100% TPS. A 1-for-1 deal." I think that makes a lot of sense. But, I see no way to set TF Steps vs. TPS in $8D What I would like to do is minimize the throttle follower on initial low TPS. Why? I have a 58mm TB. A little throttle goes a long way to launching this car from a stoplight Minimizing air at lower TPS readings would be awesome. BUT, I still want the IAC fully open at 100% TPS. Can you see ANY way to do that with $8D?

3) At WOT my IAC maxes at 100-120 steps depending on something ... I don't know what that something is. Does anyone know what that something is? And, is there any way to change it to use the max IAC possible at WOT?

EDIT: I thought I would post my only idea instead of just asking questions. What if you do the OPPOSITE of what everyone is talking about? What if I increase the TF Gain A LOT and then use the TF vs. MPH table to limit the low MPH TF steps? This might allow for only a couple steps at 4mph and lower but then I could phase in the IAC to go to a high setting because now the gain will push it further? I still think this idea sux though. TF vs. RPM would be better so that fueling could directly correspond to the extra air. I'm stumped.

Tim

RBob

iTrader: (1)

1) probably is 150%, there is a ASLD after the multiply.

2) need to use the gain setting (L865D). The math is to multiply the current TPS % value (from idle) by the gain setting and divide by 128. It is then limited by the steps at L865E.

By lowering the gain setting the TF steps will be reduced. Record the max TPS% value at WOT (engine off) and work the math backwards to derive a gain setting (for 1-to-1).

3) there are a couple of adjustments to the TF steps. P/S anticipate, A/C stuff, then the MPH offset. The table at L86B2 is a TF adder. The steps from that table get added to the steps calculated from the TPS% gain. And is not affected by the max TF steps limit (L865E).

Total IAC steps can change as the TF is typically added to the current idle steps. If the engine was idling with 10 steps then the next time it was idling with 20 steps, there will be a 10 step difference in total IAC counts at a given speed and throttle position.

RBob.

ULTM8Z

For you Tunercat guys, they made another update to the $8D tdf file to add the following function. I e-mailed him to add it. Did it in one day and sent it back to me!

E-mail him if you want the new file since I don't know when it will appear in the download section on the website.

________________________________
IAC Manual throttle follower vs MPH
________________________________

L86B2: FCB 0 ; 0 0 MPH
FCB 4 ; 50 4
FCB 8 ; 100 8
FCB 12 ; 150 12
FCB 12 ; 150 16
FCB 12 ; 150 20
FCB 12 ; 150 24
FCB 12 ; 150 28
FCB 12 ; 150 32
FCB 12 ; 150 36
FCB 12 ; 150 40
FCB 12 ; 150 44
FCB 12 ; 150 48
FCB 12 ; 150 52
FCB 12 ; 150 56
FCB 12 ; 150 60
FCB 12 ; 150 64

I'm going to try to take out some (or all) of the steps below 20 mph and see how that works to get the idle down easier when coming to a stop.

TRAXION

I think I get it. Let's assume I have 42 steps at idle (true story, yea, I know I really need to fix this but let's roll with it for the sake of an example ).

42 steps * 150 / 128 = 49.2. However, since the max steps in the bin is 40 then the value of 40 will be used instead of 49. For the record, I know that it is 150% which means 1.5 but when doing the math with 1.5 I got 0.5 as the result which just didn't make sense.

Is that correct? If so, what is actually done with this value. I assume that this is the max TF value that can be added to the idle IAC steps (42) ... which gives a max of 82 not considering any other adders?

Can you use an 'engine on' value too? If so - I have 102 steps at WOT. I admit that I am not exactly sure what you have indicated that I do with this number. Sorry I have the following formula ...

Idle IAC Steps * Gain / 128 = TF Steps
If TF Steps > Max TF Steps then use Max TF Steps

How does WOT IAC Steps fit in?

Now things really don't add up. If that table is commanding 150 steps at 60mph then why don't I see 150 steps?

That does add up! Thanks. There was ~20 IAC steps in my idle different from one WOT log to another. Thanks!

Sorry for so many questions Rob. I feel so green asking them. But, the IAC stuff is definitely not my strong suit

Tim

RBob

iTrader: (1)

It is TPS% based, not IAC step based. If at 20% TPS:

20% / .39 = 51 (bin value)
Then the 150% gain term is 160 (bin value)

(51 * 160) / 128 = 64 TF steps, limited to 40.

Then if at 40 MPH table at L86B2 adds in 12 more steps.

So total TF, not including other minor adjustments, will be 52 steps added to the idle steps.

RBob.

TRAXION

Thanks Rob! That makes a ton of sense. There's only a couple small things left before the general picture is totally clear (such that I can do calculations) ...

1) Where did you get 0.39?
2) How does 150% become 160?

I think that both of those might be explained by your use of the term "bin value". I don't understand your context. When I see that - it usually means 'binary value' (i.e. 10011010) or an actual value from the .bin file (A0, 01, BF, etc).

3) You said it adds 12 steps at 40mph? In the ANHT hac it says 150 steps at 40mph (but the .bin value in hex is 12). Does it use 12 or 150? I think it uses 12 because 150 is ludicrous But, If it uses 12 then what happens if you have a value of 1F instead of 12?

Again - thanks for your continued help on this. I have read your 727 IAC article over at DIY-EFI but the $8D stuff just isn't 100% sinking in yet. This post has been totally invaluable to me so far with regard to the TF.

Tim

RBob

iTrader: (1)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by TRAXION
[B]1) the .39 is the (100(%) / 256) term.

2) the 150% becoming 160 is the reverse, the calibration term is 160 which is 150%.

x) bin value, I didn't want to use that terminology, but I did. I am relating to the actual value the ECM is using. IE: 20% TPS is not stored as '20'. It is stored as '51' (20% / .39).

3) I have no idea why the hac has a value of 150 in the comments. The AUJP bin (if I have an un-touched bin) has 12 in that location of the table.

RBob.

3.8TransAM

I want to be like Rbob when i grow up :-)

On a serious note it is great to see all of this stuff getting picked apart and into the knitty gritty so we all have a greater understanding....

I didnt have much of a clue until Rbob confirmed what i had found in the hac and i began messing around. Cured most of the low throttle /low speed cruise issues i would have getting stuck in bumper to bumper traffice
thanks
Jeremy

PS getting inot the calculations and figuring out what is roght and wrong still over my head at this time but im working on it

TRAXION

Ding, Kazunk, Diggadoing ... synapses firing ... picture becoming clear ...

DESIRED %TPS / 0.39 * TFG / 128 = Desired IAC steps

Thus, for 100% throttle looking for 160 steps ...

100 / 0.39 * TFG / 128 = 160

TFG = 160 * 0.39 * 128 / 100

TFG = ~80 (approximately HALF of AUJP current).

I fully understand that this assumes 0 steps at idle and is also ignoring the MPH table and ignoring other minor steps that might be added in like AC, Fans, learned steps, etc. I just want to see if my synapses are firing correctly. I think this also means that one would have to increase the 'allowable steps in drive' to a big number in order to achieve a huge IAC opening at WOT. So, generally speaking ...

you decrease the gain and increase the max drive steps

I hope this is right. It feels right - lol. The only part that I don't get is the relationship between 150% for TFG and the ECM used value of 160.

Tim

TRAXION

Wow. It works. I reduced my TF gain to 75% and increased the max steps to the same max steps used for max steps (worse case). That means I have it at 231 steps. Others might want to consider using the stock max steps (worse case) of 160.

During normal driving my total IAC is lower than before. But, at WOT it is higher ... much much higher I also zeroed out the IAC vs. MPH. I saw no reason for me to be using this table. Part throttle driveability is now ever so slightly better due to acceleration from a stop being less forceful. I am going to decrease the gain again a little bit more and test again. FWIW, I fixed my idle IAC counts to zero (finally). After implementing the above changes I get 209 counts at WOT ... and only ~35 driving along the highway Sweet. Thanks Rob! You Rock! I still don't understand how 150% (192dec) is 160 in the ECM though

Tim

RBob

iTrader: (1)

All right, looking good, your welcome.

As for the 160 being 150%, it uses the typical percent calculation and then is multiplied by 2.

160 * .390 = 62.4%, uh-oh, that is what I get for not double checking the comment.

Continuing:

160 * .390 = 62.4%

62.4% * 2 = 124.8%

So the gain is really 124.8%, as it is it is still multiplied by 2 which is why the gain is > 100%.

RBob.

TRAXION

I am still cornfused - lol - with regard to stock AUJP settings. Everything out there for editing so far is showing a TF gain of 150% for AUJP (binary 192). You said the ECM is using 160. Please, Let me know if this is right? ...

The ECM is not using 160 for AUJP. If the TF gain were 125% then it would be using 160. But, since the stock setting is higher at 150% it is using ...

150% / 2 / 0.39 = 192 (which is the decimal value in the bin).

Does that sound right? This would explain why I was getting 209 counts at WOT instead of a lower number that I had calculated.

Tim

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Ah, I was using the values as shown in my first post of this thread. Probably AXCN values. If AUJP has 192 as the TF gain then yes it is 150%. Use the 192 in the calcs. 91L98Z28 found the gain in AXXD to be 255 (200%).

RBob.

TRAXION

Doh! Communication error It makes sense now. Woot. You rock.

Tim

thirdgen88

:hail: :hail:

The picture is clear in my head now too!! Thanks guys, can't wait to try it out!

91L98Z28

wow, the first time i've been referred to, i think.

I'm now running a gain of 20% with max follower steps of 5. I also changed the steps vs. mph table as follows:

0:0
4:1
8:2
12:3
16:4
20:5
24:5
28:5
32:5
36:5
40:5
44:5
48:5
52:5
56:5
60:5
64:5

I tried zeroing both the follower gain and the follower max steps, but my idle took on a very weird, almost uncontrolled quality. it would randomly, slowly wander 50-100rpm with no real control.. I never looked at the data stream to figure out why... i just went to 20% and max 5 steps, and now i really like how it drives (and the rock solid idle is back, no wandering). I'm not too concerned with having the IAC open at WOT though like trax, i'm sure the 48mm TB flows plenty of air for my nearly stock 350.

works for me! this thread has been great.

gta324

Summary:

Constants to add:

Time between IAC steps in pk/Neu
L8659: FCB 8 ; 62.5 msec between stp's in Pk/Neut
reducing it will make the rpm drop faster

Time between IAC steps in Drive
L865A: FCB 8 ; 37.5 msec between stp's in Drive
reducing it will make the rpm drop faster

Slope gain
L865D: FCB 160 ; 150% follower slope gain
reducing it willl also get the idle down quicker, how?

MAX IAC steps in Drive
L865E: FCB 50 ; 50 steps max in drive
Max IAC steps in Drive reducing will allow the rpm drop off quickly (less steps to reduce).

Tables
IAC Manual throttle follower vs MPH
L86B2: FCB 0 ; 0 0 MPH
MAX IAC steps in Drive vs MPH reducing will allow the rpm drop off quickly (less steps to reduce).

lakeffect2

It's simply amazing what using the search button can do for you!

I found this thread six years after the fact, and am using this info to resolve some of my `93 Caprice wagon TPI swap issues. I want to take a moment to thank you responders above for pioneering this invaluable thread and the ideas it puts forth.

Between this thread and a few others like...

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...-my-final.html.

... have helped minimize a few high idle and surge problems for me. I'm using Tunerpro RT and just needed to find a few tables and charts, didn't even need to do code! HEY IT WORKS!

Thanks boys! (...and God Bless Grumpy)

Dave Buchholz, Rochester NY