smartin44

I've designed a projector replacement for the H4656, that I'm going to have certified to be a completely legal replacement, but I'm not sure whether it will sell very well or not because it'll be a lot more costly than the standard 4x6" bulb. With the projector, bulb, harness, ballast and all wiring, it could cost around $300 for each one, but the lighting will be compareable to that of the new Cadilac CTS's and HID's are supposed to outlast the life of most cars, as well as only use about 1/4 to a 1/3 of the power of the old bulbs. Do you think many people would be willing to pay that much for HID's in their Camaro?

I want them in mine, but building the injection mold for the harness will cost around $20,000, so we'd have to make at least $600/month in sales for four years to pay off the injection mold. What does everyone think?



Stephen Martin
www.martin-concepts.com

bowtienick

iTrader: (1)

i would buy a set

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

I'd buy a set. But I seriously doubt you will make back your $20k. People in this community are to cheap.

Shadow Z

iTrader: (2)

Haha, sad but true. I almost had my seats sold locally. Now I only wanted $300 for a complete set of grey cloth seats with no rips, electric driver seat, passenger seat, the two back seats, and the backrest, from my IROC with only 99K miles.

This guy said he could find an entire third gen for sale with a mint interior and running for LESS than the $300 that I wanted for my complete set of seats. I laughed so hard. There's the occasional lucky find for $800-$1,200, but they're usually nothing more than a barely running car that's just a decent solid shell for a restoration, or just a project car.

HID's would be neat though. I'd have to see them. Some look way too purple-ish and would only be suited well for newer, more modern looking cars IMO.

chevelle600

iTrader: (9)

i'd love to buy a set. however, i think you could cut down costs a lot by simply making your own harness's and making them plug and play; or atleast with simple modification. most in our community would be perfectly willing to make a few simple mods to install something like this.

personally, id prefer a kit that included everything, but in a DIY kit so that i could mount things where i wanted and run wires where id like them.

have you considered just piecing a kit together like that? i mean, your idea is do-able, but youd have to market them pretty broadly in order to make your money back.

now if you're talking $300 for bulbs for both sides and the ballasts and wiring, then that really isnt too bad for a kit. id pay for it

BluFBdy

iTrader: (1)

unfortunately you wont make back your 20k, and to be honest i wouldnt pay 300 per light. Ever. Call me cheap or whatever but its alot cheaper and easier for me to buy ebay housings, modify and reseal them, and buy a set of HIDs with balasts for uner 100 bucks, people complain about the light pattern without the projector but its not bad, ive done 4 full conversions on thirdgens now and they never get flashed for being too bright, and it lights up the road perfectly fine, IF someone had 1200 bucks to blow i dont think lighting would be their first option

just my 2 cents, good idea, bad market

91camarosRS

iTrader: (5)

I'LL TAKE the prototype!

smartin44

Yeah, I know it pricey, but it would still surprisingly be a couple hundred dollars cheaper than what all the rice tuners are paying for their HID retrofit kits. The problem with putting HID bulbs and ballasts in a regular reflector lamp is first of all it is elegal, and secondly if you sell it for road use and it hasn't been certified, you can be fined $10,000 per assembly sold. I know that it may not be a hottest seller in the Camaro world, but there are actually 1,564 vehicle models out there that use the H4656, so it's kind of a tough decision whether to do it or not.

Maybe if I start a list of people who want them and I get a good number, we'll go ahead and do it.

BluFBdy

iTrader: (1)

If you could cut the cost down I can see it happening, I'm just saying there's a cheaper solution, not only that but youl need to test it, and IIRC wa state law says if you couldn't get it from the factory its a no go, yet we all do it the biggest issue with retrofits is aiming, when they blind people it becomes an issue, that's the installer not the manufactuer, plus we have 4 lights, my friend does retrofits for hondas at his shop 400 labor and parts, the numbers don't stack up here

chevysquid

iTrader: (7)

Too rich for my blood!

travis401

iTrader: (1)

Make just the housings and projectors and leave it up to the customer to get the HID kit they want. Itll cut down on costs and leave it open to some customizing.

smartin44

Thats a good idea.

smartin44

Although, it could create a problem certifying it's street legality. I'll look into it. Thanks!

travis401

iTrader: (1)

Why so worried about making it 100% street legal. Just add a note in the fine print "for off road use only" and you arent liable for any sort of damages caused by their use. People will shell out the money for a bolt in HID specific projector (I know I would). The only other options for true HID in our cars is cheap ebay housings modified for HID projectors, or headlights out of a different model car. Either one requires signifigant modification to work. Something that just bolts in with minimal modding will sell like hotcakes....for the right price

BluFBdy

iTrader: (1)

Exactly. If they were say 150-200 for a pair that would sell like crazy, your sales goals would change based on cost of the item and you'd most likely make it back MUCH faster because people will go for the cheapo's's, then see that its a small difference and take the quality part. No HID conversion is technically "legal" they're all for off road use, like 90% of the parts in our cars.... you could offer the housings then when you hit proffit offer your own line of HID's and a package deal, choice is peoples #1 concern when buying something.

Bussiness classes.... little rant my bad lol

84 1LE

iTrader: (9)

Have you factored in the cost/expenses of certifying for legality?
Will the DOT even give you certification?

I had trouble selling my " HID kit" for a little less than that, but i never went to the trouble of making a mold.Or attaining certification!

You guys should care about legality.Sooner or later it'll matter.All aftermarket kits really need is a legit projector though.DOT certified HID systems this way
(w/ proj) for the OEMs.So for any retrofit to as legal as possible it has to have a projector as well.This is probably the single most important thing.

travis401

iTrader: (1)

Sooner or later there wont be any oil to make the gas to power these cars....For the time being I seriously doubt any cop/authority is gonna look that deeply into the legality of your headlights (unless youre blinding the crap out of oncoming traffic).

84 1LE

iTrader: (9)

Did i say "for the time being".I said sooner or later!

And electric cars still need headlights.

BluFBdy

iTrader: (1)

but GM has moved on from the 4x6 lights....

in any case we can pick and fight about legality with anything. Fact is if theyre "off road use" and someone puts them on their car, its on the person not the company, when i get ticketed for my exhaust, im not going to call uup edelbrock, im not going to call up moates for letting me bypass my emissions, im not going to go after the ebay seller for selling me my egr block off, because they all have disclaimers. If you buy it and use it its your responsibility.

im simply saying the lights are retardedly expensive, a good housing would sell very well with a decent price.

smartin44

I'm unaware of any state passing safety regulations which go above and beyond the MFVSS 108, although, the MFVSS does authorize a state to have identical regulations as stated in the MFVSS and also to impose a higher standard than that stated in the MFVSS. If you know of any state imposing higher standards than the MFVSS, I'd like to know.

No where in the MFVSS(as well as any state that I know of) does it state that an HID retrofit kit or upgrade is illegal. What it does state though is that a vehicle's headlights must adequately pass as one of the 9 classes of headlights. H4656 headlights for instance, pass as being 2A1 class headlights in a 4 lamp system. In order to use 2A1 headlights, you must also use 1A1 lamps, which contain the other part of the high beam.

Legally you can replace your 2A1's, but the replacements must provide enough light in certain areas and not too much light in other areas and also must provide the part of the high beam that the 2A1 provided. Along with providing the proper amount of light, the headlight assembly must pass certain strength and durability tests to ensure that it can handle being on a vehicle.

What makes many of the HID upgrade kits illegal is that they aren't the proper projector/bulb combination, or they don't fall into the correct class of headlight for the application.

When a headlight is DOT certified, all that means is that the manufacturer is certifying that the headlight passes all safety regulations. Department Of Transportation does not stamp all headlights themselves, it is a responsibility of the manufacturer. If a headlight is found to fail safety requirements and the manufacturer stamped it DOT, the manufacturer can be fined $10,000 per unit sold. There are experienced companies who will conduct the testing and certify the design for the manufacturer, which takes the liability off the shoulders of the manufacturer. I know of one company who does this testing for around $1500 per design.

puma1552

iTrader: (1)

True HIDs are not cheap. The thirdgen community is--by far--the CHEAPEST auto community there is. I can't stress that enough. These are the same people who will not buy anything that doesn't come from a junkyard, won't paint their cars at body shops other than Maaco (and that's the top end, it's usually rattle cans under trees, 5:1:.00001 ratio of rattlecans to Maaco to real bodyshops), and would rather go get fourth gen window sweeps that don't even fit our cars from the junkyard and hack them up and force them to fit rather than just buying real thirdgen weatherstripping, even real GM stuff that's still readily available for rather cheap. Honestly, go into the body thread and see how many threads there are about rattlecans, etc. because $1500 is just too much for even the most basic low-end scuff and spray, and ask yourself if you think these same people who won't pay for a paint job will pay $600-$1200 for a set of lights.

You will not make your money back on this, selling it to thirdgenners. It's a harsh truth. Everyone here wants 50 cent parts for their $3 car that they refused to pay more than $1.50 for. People here would rather buy a cracked, trashed junk chin spoiler and fiberglass the **** out of it for $10 than just get a non-cracked one for $15.

The other thing is that 99% of people out there (not just thirdgen guys) have no idea what real, true HIDs are and what they require. 99% percent of the ebay junk that is marketed as true HIDs are so far from it it's laughable, but everyone and their dog thinks they have HIDs for 50 or a hundred bucks, so trying to sell real HIDs for real HID prices to people who do all their shopping at Autozone/ebay is going to be an uphill battle. Most people don't realize that real HIDs run upwards of a grand.

It's a shame, but it's true. You'd be better off targeting any other auto group to sell true HIDs to.

smartin44

That's very true in many cases, I appreciate your oppinion. I've heard a couple definately yes's and a couple definately no's so far here on the ThirdGen boards. I'm sure I'll be able to get the price down to a pretty fair amount by the time its ready for production, but I understand that the Camaro world may not be the greatest patron. Never the less, there are 1,564 assorted models that use the H4656 to include a few Bugatti's and other high end sports cars. For now, I will continue with the project, check my website in a month or two to critique the design and see what kind of price I have it down to. If you have any comments or suggestions, I'm happy to receive them.

www.martin-concepts.com

puma1552

iTrader: (1)

One other thing to note though, is that 80% of the definite yes's disappear when the product hits the market. Just a word of caution to keep in mind.

90 camaro cj

wekk the 4x6s fit a lot more cars then just our camaros, will u make the 20k back selling to Camaro ppl? now, will u make it back selling it to everyone who uses 4x6s? prolly

puma1552

iTrader: (1)

What other models that used the 4x6 model are desirable today though? Pretty much all 80s junk used them across the board.

74Novaguy

so something like this

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/4X6-H...Q5fAccessories

90 camaro cj

El caminos, impalas, G-bodies.... i know lot of ppl like those.... and thats with 15 seconds of thinking

puma1552

iTrader: (1)

That's three, four counting the Camaro. All of those I'd say are less popular than Camaros, and also likely owned by Joe Dirt with a thirdgen next to it who won't pay for HIDs on that either...

1,560 to go.

Sure there are other models that have used the 4x6 that are somewhat desirable today, but don't kid yourself--99% of those 1,564 models are garbage. Only a handful are desirable.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Hysterical post. But so true.

travis401

iTrader: (1)

cheap ebay housing that will do nothing but blind the crap out of everyone else on the road...

calamitascamaro

iTrader: (5)

http://www.rallylights.com/detail.aspx?ID=4252
I use these in my car with a mechanical bi-xenon 6k HID. The cut off is stock, no blinding on coming traffic, use H4 bulbs if you dont want HID's and you also dont have to repin your stock harness (even though I did) if you buy the adapter below. No it doesn't have a projector, but neither does a late 90's Acura TL.
About 100 bucks for both housings, repin is free. Use HID kit of your choice, or standard H4 bulb. Light output compared to stock sealed beam? Priceless. And I have never been pulled over for them.

92 BBC Z

Puma1552 when you refer to the"Third Gen Community", and "these people" that includes ME! That blue POS wheel barrow you push around may make you feel "cheap" but my camaro's and many other's are anything but.

Zaar

insanity, to run a full Hid conversion i would honestly advise you to find projection beamed head assemblys from the junkyard ie: subaru wrx or lexus models they also sweep in directions now remove the units and now retro them into a housing ie:4x6 units can be modified all you need is the housing i am completing my build i will post pictures upon completion secondly removal of one of the head beam sets high or lowon camaro will help and for you firebird guys i am sorry i havent done much with them but i do know you can get a poly sealed set up off a first gen 3000gt with flip up lights and modifiy it to hold the ballast BI_ XENON is the way to go nothing else unless you have mucho money, now the second run should be for you to seal the unit in and allign it
i think pictures will make more sense now if your crafty with a dremel and drill you can modify the sealed beam headlight to hold the bulb for your hid but i dont recommend it
much of luck to you all...

formula350sd

iTrader: (2)

I like the idea and I'm gonna say **** all the people who thing the thirdgen community is the cheapest in the car world...

Just because YOU don't wanna spend money on your car doesn't mean that there aren't people who will spend money to have bad *** ****...

Just my opinion

KITT1983

iTrader: (3)

I would be down for set for my 1983 trans am

calamitascamaro

iTrader: (5)

http://yhst-1918367471896.stores.yah...k1heecohe.html
6x8 h4 E-code lenses for you T/A guys. Just make sure you get a mechanical bi-xenon h4 so you have highs and lows.

KITT1983

iTrader: (3)

i have the hella e codes for way less than that

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

i will say that 300$ for a plug and play kit with TRUE Bixenon HIDs would be a pretty good deal. Honestly i have about 160-170$ into mine and im running real HID bixenon projectors and a 55w HID kit. another 20$ in plexiglass to form headlight covers and Ive got better lights than most production HID cars. I also did all the wiring myself to help save money.

Fabbing a plug and play deal for a firebird is much more difficult. I said screw it and made mine a pop up delete. Which saved me many headaches and made it much cheaper.

If you made a set for a firebird and camaro with decent light output then you could be onto something. However I thought that any car originally not equiped with HIDs/projectors would be illegal to install them. Even if they were true HID projectors and didnt do it the ghetto way and blind everyone.

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

Guaranteed the light output is illegal. I cant stand people who throw in HID kits into non projector housings. Bc you havent been pulled over doesnt mean others should do it. I see 200 people a day with HID kits in stock headlights and its sickening. Cops dont have enough time to pull over everyone bc sooo many people out there do it. But if you find a cop having a bad day and was looking to give you a ticket he sure could! Not flaming you but to state the cutoff is stock is not a real thing... stock lights really dont have a cutoff and throwing in an HID kit that puts out 3X the light blinds ppl. Judging from your pic in your sig... the light isnt that great and will blind someone in oncoming traffic/rear veiw mirror. Your pic shows that there is too much glare at too high an angle . There should be NO glare above waist height.

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

Exactly, a proper HID projector has a shaped lens that projects the light and does not have a beam scatter pattern like normal lights (or E spec lights), combine the 2 and you will blind anyone in front of you.

Only this kind of projector will give a proper beam



Unfortunately no one makes a square housed one that is a nice fit in our cars.

BluFBdy

iTrader: (1)

I'm unsubscribing from this thread its turned into crap because everyone know everything. Its possible to do conversions without blinding people and without paying 1000 bucks. Until the day I get legtimate proof that my work is "illegal" ill keep doing what I'm doing, to the OP I hope it goes well for you, maybe you can put out a legit product

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

good bye

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

who and what are you referring to? If you were referring to me and twinturbo then you should unsubscribe. We've done the research and know what is legal. As i stated ive only got 160-170$ in my HID setup and mine would be legal (except the rule that installing HIDs in a car that didnt come from the factory that way automatically makes it illegal). However doing it the correct way will increase YOUR safety and the safety of the other drivers.

puma1552

iTrader: (1)

If you don't think thirdgenners overall are the cheapest backyard mechanics out there, then by all means continue to believe that. Usually it goes something like this:

"ohh man i jus bot a new 84z projek.t car, the dude wanted 800 dolars but i got it for 350, imma fix it up, it has some rust. but this is budget. build. gonna go to the jy tomorow an get some stuf, went to one today bu they wanted $6 for weatherstrips, i can get it more cheap sumwhere eles, also floors needs replaced."

Then 3 weeks later, they realize the car is a total pile and they don't have the means to fix it up, let alone have a pot to **** in, and then talk about how they are trading it for a WAY better beater. Cycle continues.

I'll continue pushing my blue "POS wheel barrow", it's certainly nicer than most thirdgens on the road, and certainly doesn't make me feel cheap because it's not loaded with Autozone junk, and the fact you had to resort to attacking my mint car just shows you don't have much to counter what I'm saying. It's a little off to insult my clean stocker when you're driving a white car with a red/orange engine bay that was somehow "an accident".

Again, show me a cheaper community. There isn't one.



Where do you guys think we got our stereotype from? Open your eyes. I for one am tired of it, and I'm certainly tired of skating around it.

Most importantly though, if you aren't a cheapskate, then nothing I said should offend you in the slightest. I, for one, am tired of the stereotype that I/we with nice cars have to bear for all the rattlecan-under-the-trees POS cars. What other people do to their cars does affect the rest of us.

I'm just giving the OP warning, very, very, few people on this site will drop $600-$1200 on headlights, and that's a fact.

Shadow Z

iTrader: (2)

Puma, you're completely right. Third gens are awesome cars, but I mean let's face it, very few third gen owners have stacks of cash laying around...... And most of us will move on to way better cars, regardless of whether we hold onto our third gens or not. I won't sell my IROC, but I will continue stepping up to better vehicles.

Such as what I did with the Mustang. I wanted something that was better looking, more reliable, newer, and with more aftermarket support. Aftermarket support says it all. If there isn't money to be made in a specific market, vendors will move on. Look at the 4th gen cars, Mustangs, Dodge trucks (especially the Cummins diesel), GM trucks, Ford trucks, Corvettes, 350Z's, Hondas, Subarus. Hugest aftermarkets you could ask for. That is because people are more willing to dump money into them.

Not really anything to be ashamed of though. We're a rare breed, not many people love these cars, even fewer are willing to put money into them. No point in denying it. I've had, and still do have some pretty big plans for the IROC, but I just saw it smarter to put my money into a more worthwhile car for now.

I believe just between the Mustang's T56 swap, SCT tuner, and BBK X pipe, I'm just below $3,000. So it's not necessarily a matter of the people on here being broke, it's just their goals for their cars.

BTW Puma, you do have a nice wheel barrow. Can't believe you got flamed for stating the truth.

ThePain

I agree with Puma, nothing like browsing the body forum to make you feel bad for all the poor thirdgens out there.

ThePain

As for the topic, I would absolutely LOVE this product. But I also question if you could make your money back from this community, sad but true


I can't believe the price is so high for the mold though! I do have a question, would this be completely plugin?

It would be a big plus for me, as I'm not very technically inclined, but I'd be willing to do a little work, or atleast find someone to do it for me haha.

smartin44

Using a new parts distributor who I found, I think that I may be able to get the price down to around $350 for a pair. A pair includes the whole deal, projector, bulb, ballast, mount and legal certification. I'd like to even throw in a copy of the certification so every driver can keep it in their glove compartment, if they so choose, to present to any officer who believes the headlights are illegal.

How is it sounding now?

puma1552

iTrader: (1)

Thanks, the four wheel version is much better than the lowly one wheel barrow the suckers buy--I can haul way more Autozone parts with this beast!

In reality I love these cars as much as anyone, it's why I've kept my lowlyhigh-mile wheelbarrow for twelve years, nearly the last three of which I've shelled out $160/mo for proper storage while I'm away. My frustration is my way of voicing how much I do care for the cars and want to see us as a community pick ourselves up...but if everyone keeps sweeping it under the rug, then it will never happen.

As for the lights, if it were a quality kit, I'd consider them in the future after they've proven themselves.

smartin44

ThePain,

As to whether it would be completely plugin, the headlight assembly will be replaced just like the H4656, but you will have to mount the ballasts yourself. The main problem I have with it is the way Thrid Gen's mount the headlight, the metal bracket has two screws above the light and two screws below the light and it can be pretty tough getting the bracket back on without scratching your paint and dropping the two bottom screws. If you can get around that problem and figure out how to mount the ballast, you should have no other problems.

I will have it configured so that it passes certification, but if you desire different colored bulbs, you are free to change them on your own.