Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I got the car on the dyno to do some tuning. I spent an hour and 15 minutes on there but would love to have more time to let the car cool

it got hot and stayed hot. more runs, more heat, no real changes in power or so it seemed. I drove it, strapped up within 20 minutes ready to go, so no cool down. weather was hot and i think it was humid although dyno says 19%... mid 80's i think but the garage was getting hot. Dyno sheets says 94 degrees!

I put basically the tune i've been running on the street but slightly leaner and less timing. 34 degrees after 4800rpm, 35 from 3200-4800

base pull at 180 degrees engine temp and heat soaked HSR from 30 min drive to the place sitting in some traffic along the way

car made 388/367 whp/wtq. peaked at 6100 rpms or so for hp, torque near 5000 but my 4000-5000 fuel was VERY LEAN at over 16.5 to 1!! i thought it was richer than that from street tuning so with the help of Dennis at the shop, i started fattening up the mid range with his advice. Finally got it down to 13.5 to 1 or so and got peak rpm air/fuels from 13.4 or so down to 12.8-12.9 ish to 1.

did 10 runs total, and by run 7-8 the car was only 188 as i let it cool down alot before hand as Dennis took a call and i started burning chips. Run 8 we were satisfied with the air fuel and started looking at the timing.

Run 8 was a good run with 36 degrees of timing. it mae 391whp and the midrange being richened up i was rewarded with stout 20-30wtq gains in the low end between 4000-4650 rpms! Peak went to 371 but it was holding peak from just about 3700 rpms to near 5000 rpms! FLAT torque curve

Run 9 and 10 i tried 38 and 34 degrees timing. 38 went down and 34 picked up 1 peak hp but gained 3-6 in the 5500-6000 range so im happy with that

CAR was HOT on that run at over 204 degrees! but i still made alittle more power although torque dropped alittle due to heat


SUMMARY
http://media.putfile.com/383-Stealth-Ram-dyno-run
BEST HP RUN my hottest run! run 10
BEST TQ RUN cooler run 8

combined SAE
392whp at 6250rpms
371wtq at 4000 rpms but its between 350-371 from 3600-5500 rpms, its pretty flat. SEE VID AND GRAPHS


CONCLUSIONS

I got more in it with cooler temps for sure but i'm alittle upset. i thought i'd be nearer to 415-420whp but more importantly 400wtq. Just wasnt gonna happen today

I like the fat flat torque curve even tho i expected more from it thats for sure.
The hp peak rpm is around where i expected it to be and it flatlines for awhile so i'm happy with that... flat upper hp curve is what i expected this cam to do.

I also am thinking the 3" MAF and TPI intake is restricting this motor. I believe a larger intake flow path could help me and will be next thing to try

Also i wonder if my exhaust is hurting anything with its length. If cutouts at 18-19" from primary tubes end makes loads more power i'll know for sure that will be somethign for me to pursue. exhaust tuning

Also gotta fix the leaks in the exhaust..still have collector sealing problems


THE BAD

i broke something. at idle now i have a metal popcorn popping sound. Almost like a bolt is ratting around in some can or something but with more of a popping sound

it coming from the back of the motor/tq converter area. seems to be underneath i think the converter may be broke or something? It ONLY happens at idle and just happened after the dyno was over and i started the car up to go home. I drove awhile and when sitting in traffic at idle, i heard it start popping like something was hitting something under the car. ALL other rpms are fine. I got on it once and the car was FINE, felt strong. So i have no idea what is wrong now

NO track day for me tomorrow....

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

GRAPHS

project89

iTrader: (1)

check the converter bolts,i had a car do that once to me, the conveter bolts losened up and made the same kind of noise

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Maybe a flexplate or torque converter bolt has come loose? Could be an easy fix.

Those numbers aren't that bad. From all that I have read I think the big exhaust split is throwing out horsepower/torque on the lower end. Maybe like he set it up for a big shot of nitrous. Also the shorter runners of the HSR are not going to lend themselves to low end torque.

The total LS1 runner length is around 13.5 inches long. Same as we are shooting for. I believe the AFR heads have around 5.5" of intake runner and the HSR is what around 5". So your are around 10.5" in total intake runner length. That means higher rpm horsepower numbers and lower torque numbers.

That being said, yes you do have lots of improvement to be made in your air intake system. Yes you have improvements that can be done to your exhaust system and recover some torque and more horsepower.

Did you data log to see if you were getting any spark retard? I could only run 27 degrees of total timing in the peak torque area of 4800 ot 5200 rpm.

Whoops just now see the graphs.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

I absolutely agree, check the converter bolts. I bought a Trans Am two years ago, and the owner swore up and down that the engine was knocking. Only heard the clanking at idle. Got it home, my cousin looked into it, and the converter bolts were loose. This normally happens under hard acceleration/load immediately followed by a sudden miss....

skinny z

At 115 cfm per square inch a 3" pipe flows about 812 cfm. I doubt if a TPI air lid has a 3" cross section at the greatest restriction. It's most certainly limiting the upper rpm breathing of a 383.
You know my thinking on the exhaust. There's lots of hp still available. Can you test with suitably sized open collectors on the dyno some day?
Still pretty good numbers considering your chasing your a/f ratio.
Check your torque convertor bolts.
Just a hunch.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Going by the graphs it looks like peak power was around 6250rpm. It also looks like those numbers will hang on for awhile and not drop off quickly. I bet your still making good power at 6750rpm.

You might want to consider that as a shift point for the most power under the curve at the strip. I bet you will pickup 3 tenths.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

that would make sense to me as it sounded like the converter bolts I doubt i'll get time to track the car tomorrow i wont get time to fix it in time but if i can get it done before 630 i'll head out to get a run or two in

i ran this thing up to 39 degrees timing and i'm not seeing a single spec of spark retard or knock counts! i cant believe it

Next thing tho is CAI setup of some sort

i'll do that for sure! either track or dyno time

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Exactly, thus the saying peak numbers mean nothing, it's average power that matters....

I'm very impressed with the numbers you achieved. A low eleven second car, at under 400-RWHP/Torque, heh, that's right on par with the LSX engines....

project89

iTrader: (1)

if it is the converter bolts be sure to take them all the way out and check the flexplate,when it did that on one of my cars it egg shaped the bolt holes in the flexplate and also left a burr under the bolt heads. if theres a burr there u want to get rid of it before tightening the bolts back down, or u run the chance of them backing off again, red loctite works wonders as well

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

my car must be pretty light to have run 11.67 on a 1.59 60 foot and trap 116 in the heat with like 380whp and 350-360 wtq i estimate

now that i got my torque curve up and stout, i should launch hard as hell and really push the roll cage limit

86 IROC

iTrader: (3)

Locked or unlocked converter?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

locked and i think locking it up the last few runs at a low rpm killed those bolts!

i forced lockup by 40mph so i made sure it stayed in third at 50mph WOT and didnt downshift. that way i can get readings below flash point of the converter

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

If it is damaged, I have a brand new SFI Flexplate for him....

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

I think you did good. I believe the 11.5 cage rule is in serious jeopardy the next time out.

By the way on another dyno you might be over 400rwhp. It is the track numbers that tell the tale.

skinny z

Locked up or otherwise those bolts should never work loose.
New ones are a good investment and if you can get the vehicle in the air so as to fit a torque wrench in there, so much the better.
Do you suppose there would be a lot of difference in air density between your 11 second run and the dyno pulls?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

i dont know the actual conditions of todays runs as i didnt record them but i can estimate the conditions were somewhat close to the same if not a tad worse.

i do have new torque converter bolts..they came with the converter and i would also expect them to not come loose like that but oh well.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Interesting as I had ran your combination on DynoSim. Your numbers are virtually identical to what DynoSim predicted with 750cfm of airflow with the MAF. DynoSim predicted 390RWHP using the 20% loss for an automatic.

Now, I put in 1100cfm for a good cold air intake and the horsepower went up 18. I feel that is realistic from what I have seen on the local dyno's. I added long tube headers with open exhaust and the power jumped up another 33 horsepower. That is a 50 horsepower increase. If you added a monoblade that is another 5 horsepower. That will get you to 11 second flat or high tens.

YenkoST

iTrader: (5)

Nice numbers. Don't rely on the dyno numbers for proving anything. Like already said...they change from day to day. However, picking up power like that will ensure a better running engine and better times at the track.

Definately a CAI would do you justice. I seen where a 3" pipe at 28" hg will flow around 780 cfm. With your TB flowing 1000 cfm(assuming you have the 58mm) a 3.5" or 4" would be an improvement for sure esp. if you get the right size air filter to go with it.

One more thing just seeing the video..you have your bigger wheels on there so that extra rotating weight can vary the hp number too.

86 IROC

iTrader: (3)

Good deal, my car (2000) doesn't lose much - 5-6 RWHP. But, I've seen a few of my friend's cars with different converters than mine lose 15-20 RW locked vs. unlocked. What kind of chassis dyno was it? Loaded dyno?

Just keep this in mind... dyno racing sucks. The "dragstrip dyno" is the final word IMO. I'm sure you've seen it too, guys w/ inflated dyno #'s and weak ET's. I have a friend with a 99' SS that made 495 RW, his best is a 13.4XX @ 114.XX He keeps asking for a roll race. Last I checked... 121 > 114.

I think you're on the right track with the CAI & reworking the exhaust. The two should kick up your trap speed nicely. Keep us posted.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

yep this is a good baseline i guess. we'll see if i can improve. I'll be working to relocated the battery so i can get the intake in. I was thinking 3.5" pipe since that is suppose to flow 1100 cfm. i just need to make a MAF sensor that big or buy a different one with a signal converter or something

The dyno was just a dyno jet. I dont know if that is a load bearing dyno or not.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

At 28" of water you can figure 146 cfm per square inch. So a 3.5 inch pipe will be in the neighborhood of 1300cfm. That will get it done figuring some loss.

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

NICE!!....hey with your high stall, where did they start the pull? didnt it want to downshift to 2nd gear?

skinny z

A section of straight pipe the length of a typical muffler, rated at the same test pressure as a carb (10.5 inches of mercury), flows about 115 cfm per square inch. ( Auto Exhaust Science by D.V.)
Is that comparable to 28" of water?

87_TA

Dude,
Tighten the bolts and get to the track!! I have had mine come loose a few times already, doubt the locking had much to do with. I just TQ mine pretty tight and check often when under car being we put lots of abuse on.. Use loc-tite if you have some. Anyway it taked 20 minutes, tighten them and go racing. Cut out the heat sinks in mass air also, worth like 30cfm.. The fact that your HP and TQ seemed so flat would suggest there is an air restriction, also try disconnecting that MAF after factory intake just for a pass to see..

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

skinny z


I'm not sure. I would think the physics would be the same.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

at first we were doing 65mph locking converter at 65 mph. Next i changed it to 38 mph and tried 50mph starts...it worked. held 50 mph in 3rd WOT. Oh, and i'll send the tune over to you later tonight or whenever.. changes are drastic in the midrange so the car will like it more than likely

stall flashes to like 4000 rpms, i'm thinking it may be more than its rated which is fine since torque is the same from 3700-5000 just about


NO track tonight...just got home from work... 12 hr day is bullshit oh well time to go see if the converter bolts are loooose or not

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

Good deal ORR!....thanks...I'll keep my eye out on it....I got my car back so heck yeah Id like put your tune on it....

Oh and with the noise your hearing...if you remember that happened to me too....all my converter bolts back out and egged all the holes...I had to replace it.
I hope that not what it is...cause I couldnt get a wrench up in there..I had to drop the tranny.

z 28 jari

iTrader: (1)

No,you propably mean 1.5"Hg which is same as 20.4"H2o

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

converter bolts were loose. tightened them up and the car seems fine now. I took it out last night and it feels really strong in the midrange now, and the top end seems smooth but i didnt push it over 5700 or so

vernw

iTrader: (2)

Glad it was an easy fix!!!!!

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

good deal you got it fixed!......which bolts were loose? the crank bolts or the flexplate/converter bolts? im assuming the converter?

now go have some fun today!...

Tony89GTA

iTrader: (7)

Ever thought about just converting over to SD? I know it would suck to start over on a new tune but if your thinking of modding the MAF your kind of in the same boat, plus then you can do whatever you want with the intake after that.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Have thougth about that but i kinda dont want to go SD yet. If i do anything it will be aftermarket DFI/EFI and i'll work to build a single plane carb manifold EFI setup for a larger motor since i want more. Would like to try lsx stuff but i do want a BIG inch smallblock with AFR 210-220's or so.

i'm not sure yet what i want to do currently tho. i figure if i make a bigger MAF, i should just have to tune the MAF tables til it matchs what i currently run to compensate for the extra air. The extra air will lean it out again i'm sure but i dont mind retuning it, its just getting a chance to get on the dyno again with my work schedule.

we'll see. I kinda want more from the motor thats for sure but we'll see what it does at the track next week i also want to try a custom grind i came up with or the XFI292 cam which i hear is a monster I've been playing with desktop dyno and althought it aint perfect simulatoni, i think i got an idea what this car may want, its a bigger cam but should work. Similar to ZZx. alittle more peak power and rpm would be cool but i think the duration split may be hurting midrange. It should rock on nitrous tho!! That was the intention so i'm gonna wait til i get the spray results to see how i like it. Cam change is last result

I thought 400whp would feel much quicker than it is. Mid 11's at over 116mph is nothing to be ashamed of but i kinda wish i would have shot for a quicker time with this build. I wouldnt have known that tho til i got this setup running and now i wish i was shooting for low 11's high 10's at 120-125 in that range. I should like 3.90 gears and spray tho

i also think the air intake is holding me back a tad. I'm not sure if the HSR is limited or not but i would think its not based on the work done so far. Time will tell

BadSS

Yeah,, the chassis dyno is good for tuning and getting a good idea of where your shift point might be, but I wouldn't worry about what the power numbers say. To me,, it's all about how it runs at the track. That's where the rubber really meets the road and you're able to tell if the dyno was in the ball park or not. However,, the HSR cars seem to ET better than what you would expect from the dyno numbers.

It does seem that the HSR cars don't feel as strong as they run. You're not the first to make that comment,,, and mine was the same way. It didn't really feel all that impressive, but you could look at the tach (or the time slips) and tell it was moving. I've run single plane intakes with carbs for many years, so it's not just the move from a long runner intake to a shorter runner. I'm sure it has to do with the runner length and the way the power comes in. For me,, the power didn't come in fast enough to break the tires loose at launch but fast enough to let the car pull on out and get gone.

Something else I noticed when I was running the StealthRam,,, when you get to the track, you might want to make a run on the dyno tune and try bumping the fuel pressure up 3lbs. Both times I took the car to the track right after the dyno tune, it ran better ETs (.15 seconds quicker) with 3-4lbs more fuel pressure.

Batass

I know what you mean, when I first took my car out N/A (460hp) it was fun as hell, but not wild at all. I added 3 psi (100hp) and it turned into another machine. It got it perfect for a street car. Now at 9psi, its too much...

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Here is what i'm thinking... if i spray a 150 shot and it feels good and i like the track times, then i want to look into getting new heads with 75-77cc chambers to get compression down to 9.5-9.8 to one(or get my heads opened up if possible), and get a procharger kit or maybe a custom single/twin turbo setup I always wanted a boosted car. 550-600whp will be nice i'm sure.

But i really think the 3.42 gears are killing the car on the street and track. they are good gears for combination street/track driving but i'm more track/weekend fun now so i need something to get the rpms up faster. 3.90's will be good but 3.73's better on the juice

86 IROC

iTrader: (3)

What RPM are you comming through the lights at? By the math, I'ds say 5700-ish. A bit below your power peak, but not way off.

I just had to go to a 28" drag radial on my 2000, with 26's and the 3.73's it was pretty much where it need to be, but in cooler weather and not having traction problems - I am positive I'll pick up a solid 3 MPH. That would have me too close to the rev limiter.

IMHO - I wouldn't touch the gears until you maximimize your setup. But, as you iron out some things and make more power, you may find yourself in the same boat as me and need a 28" tire due to a serious lack of traction.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

i need to get gears because i need a 12 bolt i dont know or want to know how long this 10 bolt will last.

i do believe i'm around 5500-5700 rpms or so crossing the traps, which is very low for this motor. still some good power to be had crossing at 6000-6200. 3.90's should compliment it well but the spray may make this car overgeared. 3.73's may be what i get cuz i dont want a larger tire. I think it looks stupid with 28" IMO. i'd do a 27 but thats it. i shouldnt need a larger tire, just a touch wider it should be enough to hook

87_TA

Strangly enough, my car makes peak around 6300 as well, would have figured running 3.73 gear, 28" tall tires would have killed my power. Due to too many traction issues I tried them and the car picked up. I agree that usually you should gear for peak power, but mine proved me wrong. It seemed it actually stalled the converter later helping car more. Guess giving same effect as heavier car leaving the line stalling converter later. Who would have thought the car would 60ft 1.41's N/A off the foot brake running a mini ram, 3800 stall, 3.73 and 28"s.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

interesting, i may look into the 3.73 gear thing, but i will be using 26 inch tall tire to see if i can hook on it or not. I think i will. My car doesnt put out alot of torque like i expected and its not super heavy so it may not need extra torque.

skinny z

Plenty of 3rd gens deep in the 11's with less motor than Orr.
Steep gears and high stalls with plenty of traction is what it takes. But at what point do you still go on a cruise with it?
11 sec flat at 120 mph means a 26" tire needs a 4.20 gear (no slippage). Even with a .7 OD your still turning nearly 3000 at 75 mph.

87_TA

That motor still has lots in it, its gonna wake up with more tuning, driving, traction, airflow.
When that car starts dead hooking justin, you are gonna stall later starting off closer to your pk TQ pulling the care hard. Get rid of some air restriction as well. Don't be scared of the heat sinks J. Bring it here, I cut them for you.
possibly still some exhaust restiction with that car as well.
You have been to the track once on a shitty day!! give that thing a chance! way to many judgements on a rookie motor. It still has yet to even seal the rings fully, or get bearing clearance..

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

lol its early i know and i do expect more. how much more? i dont know. Bottom 11's near 120 would be nice

i am making a custom 3.5" MAF and air intake to try sometime in the next few weeks. We will see how that works out. think it should help.

HiTech5

iTrader: (4)

Orr - Do you have a lock up converter? If so, did you lock it up during your dyno runs?

fwiw - I have a manual lock up switch. I lock the coverter at 5000 in 2nd gear and leave it locked. Believe me, it pulls harder when locked. This was recommended to me by John Lingenfelter. Can't argue with the legend.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/post...75-post27.html

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Orr, I assumed you removed the air filters for the dyno pull? Did you also remove the air lid?

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Orr here is a LS1 motor with similiar numbers to yours that put on a bigger MAF and air intake. Here are the results.

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=965025

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Not necessarily, Denton's 383 runs just fine w/3.23's and 3000-Stall, Click Here. If anything, the difference lies in the heads (along w/the nitrous)....

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

yeah I saw that episode....that car is sick fast! and all stock looking on stock rims.