Crayz9000

Ok, before anyone tells me to search... already did, and found a bunch of interesting stuff.

Anyway, I currently have an '86 IROC T-top in pretty nice condition (interior is good, but needs work due to the previous owners chopping the carpets and such up for a stereo). And I was looking at how the T-top was designed and started wondering how feasible it would be to put gullwing doors on one.

I'm not planning on modding my current IROC, since I like it the way it is, and it's always nice to have a mostly stock car anyway. What I am thinking about (since I live in the LA area rather close to Sun Valley with its truckloads of wrecking yards) is obtaining a Camaro or Firebird that has an intact T-top body shell (I don't care about the internals, just as long as the main body is sound).

Once I have the body, I'm basically going to turn it into a project car. I've got a lot of various ideas and it would be nice to have a testbed for them anyway.

So, now about the gullwing doors. I'm not thinking about scissor or butterfly doors as found on Lambos and McLarens. I'm talking about real gullwings, as used on Mercedes and DeLoreans. Now, weight concerns were brought up in the other threads; you need both a fairly lightweight door (which the stock doors are not) and powerful gas cartridges. Fiberglass doors were mentioned as an option, but I would like for this car to be street legal (although I am fully expecting to have to register it as a custom vehicle here in CA). So, after seeing what one person did -- slicing the doors in half and having the upper half scissor -- would it work to tear the doors apart, slice them in half, then integrate the lower half into the body and reinforce it to strengthen the body?

I could then take the upper half of the door and build it into a DeLorean style door. A lot of fabrication and welding would be required, but given the time I'm fairly confident that I could do it. I'd also beef up the center part of the T-top frame so that it could for sure hold the weight of both doors, mount two hinges per door, and find some powerful gas canisters that would work.

There's a lot of work, but this would be a project car, so time shouldn't be too much of an issue.

Well, anything I'm overlooking here? Tips, suggestions? Right now this is still in the idea phase; my next step would be to sketch it out and check the angles and such.

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

I am wondering where you will mount the gas canisters without having these two rather large struts hanging from your ceiling?

FyreLance

Everybody talks about doing doors that open like this and like that but nobody ever does it, ever, so I'm not getting my hopes up. If you do I'd be very interested in seeing it though.

Crayz9000

Yeah, I know there's mainly just talk about the idea. It's because, if it's done right, it should look really cool. The main problem, as far as I can see, is in the engineering. And I'm an engineering student (although not mechanical in particular), so...

I'm mainly curious about the feasibility of it. Does anyone know how strong the center support on a T-top F-body is? Because, even with only the lower half of the door being made into the gullwing, it's going to be pretty heavy.

Crayz9000

One of my friends owns a (admittedly non-driving) DeLorean. I should talk to him and take a look at how they did the gas canisters.

Adrenaline

Heres a pic of your idea i think,
may be helpful?

deadbird

I would really question the weight of a delorean door being any lighter than a f-body.
Because weight was the issue (from bored reading) the delorean also, aside from the small gas charged lift struts you see in pictures), used special torsion bars to lift the cumbersome doors properly (and I guess reliably though, they did have to be adjusted periodically).
I don't see a lift strut being not being powerful enough but, once you get to the point of using something like what lifts the hatch (which is somewhat heavier than a door)... where do you mount it that it's not in the way ?
Any way it goes, it's a rather impractical idea but, if you're up to the challange and are dead set on doing it.. more power to you I guess.
Just my opinion though...

Rage13

if your going for real gullwing doors your gunna have to make some kinda frame around the window, or have fun trying to lift the doors by the glass.. i think it would be easier to make lambo doors

19doug90

look at this picture and understand why you would basically be building a kit car if you ever wanted to do that. First of all the center section of the roof will need to be at least a foot wide and completly sturdy so the b pillars (is that what theyre called i forget where your sail panels are) would need solid piece of metal that reach up then down the center of the roof of the car and tie into the window frame. You would need to make custom a-pillars that are rock hard and are about an 1/8th of an inch thick like on the delorean and then you would need to build where the a-pillar was a frame around the window that when dropped down that acts as a support for your a-pillar and well just look at the pic and youll understand what i mean.

Basically if you need to ask "can it be done" you dont have the means to do it

LinuxGuy

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, deadbird is right, the DeLorean's did not use just a gas cylinder. They had some kind of specially manufactuered (something to do with cryogenics) torsion bar to lift the doors.
See: http://www.dmcnews.com/faq/t_tech1.htm

From that page:
"The cryogenically manufactured torion bars that counterbalance the doors were developed and manufactured by Grumman Aerospace. Their function is taken for granted by DeLorean owners but the design and function is very elegant.
...
The DeLorean torsion bar counterbalances the door by storing torsional energy (in a way similar to how a spring stores energy when compressed). The cryogenic manufacturing process was necessary in order to strengthed the torsion bar for repeated operation without the bar fatiguing or breaking. In a process that I do not understand well, the crystalline structure of the material was modified in the process so that the "grain" in the material would run through the bar in an optimal way. If you examine a DeLorean torion bar you will see that it is twisted along its axis several times over its short distance. I have never heard of a torsion bar breaking under normal use, although I have heard of people over doing the pre-tension in the bar and twisting the roofs of their cars."

Edit:
Ah, some more interesting info here:
http://www.delorean-dmc12.co.uk/pages/torsionbars.html

"Grumman Aerospace made the Torsion Bars in a fashion similar to the F-16 canopy torsion springs. Because of the enormous stresses on our bars (nearly a 90 degree twist in a part only a couple of feet long) the bars were cryogenically tempered in liquid helium at about 7 degrees Kelvin. That's very cold, by the way. This is much different than the typical spring tempering at high temperatures, with a quench in oil or air. The Bars were made out of Stainless Steel and lowered into Liquid Nitrogen where they were then twisted through 14 Revolutions. At this temperature the molecular structure of the steel becomes more like a crystalline structure, as they are twisted the Bars increase in length & gain their Spring Properties."

Adrenaline

if this is just gunna be a project car, i see no reason why you cant use fiberglass doors, or lexan or anythign thats way lighter, its not gunna be your everyday car, even if you didnt feel safe, you can put a roll cage to compensate?

if your think of the door and t top being one peice, i think that migt be easier, just disconnect the hinges, and create a hinge where the t top meets the t bar, of course you have to create your own STURDY t bar (fitted in the roll cage?), and you cant actually have glass t tops, its need to be metal so theres a hinge purpose...

let me draw soem stuff up, and make some pics, i can see it in my mind.. but that doesnt mean much, lol

Crayz9000

I'm thinking it may be possible to use a long strut, similar to the ones on the rear hatch, and mount it alongside the B-pillar so that it's roughly pointing up. It would make it a little difficult to get into the back seat, but depending on how much in the way of electronics I want to stuff in the car, that is probably not much of an issue.

The biggest thing I've noticed is how far the front of the door sticks out in front of the A-pillar. That would create a serious balancing problem if I used a big strut at the rear; I'd have to use an even stronger strut at the front to deal with that weight. Even with the doors chopped in half.

Adrenaline: I thought fiberglass doors weren't street legal? I may want this to be a car I can play with, but I'd also like to be able to drive it on the street.

And yes, that was the reference pic I was thinking about, although IMO those doors are rather ugly. Which is why I don't want to scissor them.

Mathius

Fiberglass doors, would technically be illegal most likely, however, a fiberglass door skin is not. Make a lighter inner structure, and a door skin over it. I'm almost tempted to recommend an aluminum inner structure, but I don't know how that would hold up, but then you're the engineer. I know that properly designed and using aluminum bars, not tubes, it could probably be done. They use aluminum for heavy truck frames in a lot of places.

Mathius

Crayz9000

I'm actually an electrical engineering/computer engineering student, but I am somewhat familiar with mechanical concepts. My father's been a mechanic all his life as well, and in fact used to run a shop, so I've learned a lot from him as well.

Heliarc welding, which is what you have to do with aluminum (since aluminum oxide is a BAD thing to have in your weld), doesn't really appeal to me so I was thinking, if I went with the fiberglass-skinned door option (that's what I thought was illegal, didn't know it was only un-reinforced plain fiberglass doors) that I could create a frame of steel tubing.

At any rate, my idea for the doors was to chop them in half, then reinforce the hell out of the lower half and integrate it, while stripping all but the outer skin off the upper half and welding a steel underframe for it and the rest of the gullwing. I'd then shape some sheet metal to form a cover for the upper frame, weld it to the door skin, and rivet the whole assembled skin to the frame.

However, I could just as easily use the actual upper door skin as a template for the fiberglass, and that way make a one-piece skin that could be bolted to the frame. That way I'd save on weight without really sacrificing strength.

2out_The_Left

so if you park between 2 cars, how the hell do you get out? a question that has never been answered....

i wish i owned a delorian

Crayz9000

According to people I've talked to (this is going off memory) a DeLorean gullwing actually takes less room to open than most standard doors. It requires about 1 foot clearance to open, and can open all the way.

Again, that's all off the top of my head.

FLYNLOW92rs

iTrader: (53)

Add a door frame, get rid of the T-tops is favor of a steel roof and then the door would be just like the deloran.....

Technically it's got the same roof structure as a T-Top car, with the T-bar running in the middle, but instead of glass, it's just a continuation of the door.....

Crayz9000

I was wondering about it a bit and decided to sketch up a different idea I had.



Since I don't really want to have to chop the doors up if I don't have to, the thought occurred to me, why not weld them into the body? Stiffen the car and solve the gullwing weight problem at the same time...

Then all I'd have to do with the gullwing doors is fabricate a new upper door/window. The side window would actually be fixed in place in the door, but the airflow problem is solved by adding a small moonroof to each door's top.

I was also thinking about how it would be possible to put a high-downforce rear airfoil on the car while still being able to get into the back. So the idea I came up with is to get an aftermarket notchback hatch, reverse the hinges, and build extra supports underneath where the airfoil will be mounted. This way the downforce generated by the airfoil will press the body of the car down, not the hatch.

The little thing on the side came to mind when I was looking at a new Mustang. They have those purely decorative "air ducts" going to the rear wheels -- but I think they put a little piece of plastic into that to give it the illusion of being a real air duct. Anyway, I'd have to play with it to get the aerodynamics right, but airflow on the rear wheels can be beneficial, right?

I dunno, I was just playing around with ideas. I also did a quick sketch of what a Camaro might look with the same modifications, but it's rougher than this one (I did it with a pen on a sheet of scratch paper).

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

And you plan on getting in and out of the car how? Have you tried getting in w/ the window rolled down and the t-top off? It isn't impossible, but not a feat you want to normally be doing. Halving the door was, IMHO, a better idea.

Are you going to be racing that car in the Indy Circuit? If not, leave that HUGE high downforce wing off. It will be called **** and many other things, and it will not look good on a street car.

The vents in the rear, fine, but airflow on the rear wheels doesn't really help. Front brakes, yeah, rear wheels... not really.

Crayz9000

Hey, some people seem to think that California's freeways are a part of the Indy Circuit

Well, seriously, I was just throwing ideas out here. If I went with this gullwing idea, I'd probably have to put some handles to ease entry. Yes, I have gotten in and out of my car without opening the doors, and while it is a bit of a PITA it can be done. Not like I'd be planning on driving my project car every day anyway.

As for the massive wing, hey, my definition of a ... wing is one that looks pretty but serves absolutely no purpose. This one would at least function at high speeds

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

LOL, I've been so blessed to drive around those Freeways a few times, you aren't kidding!

I think the problem I am running into is that, you want gullwings for doors, and a huge wing, but there is a conflict of interest there. What I am seeing is one, I want this really fast car where the wing will make a difference, but then you have the gullwings, which make it impractical to drive around, and a huge engine in a car you don't drive sucks... same with the rear tire vents.

Most of the cars that people really like are cars that stick to one thing and do it well, and do other things descent.

Want a race car... huge wing, fatty tires, huge engine, doors that don't open, people normally like them.

Want a show car... great paint, tasteful mods, chrome, and a good engine, people normally like them.

There are exceptions, like the Star Trek Thirdgen, or that one w/ the split doors, and some others, but I don't know if most people like them, or anyone else would do anything like they did to their cars.

Crayz9000

.... Star Trek thirdgen? o.O That I've gotta see...

Anyway, the huge wing was really just something I tacked on while sketching, just to see how it looked. I throw ideas around in my head all the time, only some of them actually make it onto paper.

When I actually do a project car, I'm pretty sure I'll tone down the spoiler and ground effects for something more akin to the functional stuff that the Pontiac design team put on the Ram Air IV. Looks good, isn't too big, provides aerodynamic benefit.

EvilCartman

iTrader: (1)

How about using carbon fibre instead of fibreglass? Strong and very lightweight. Friend of mine has carbon fibre doors for his Viper and they don't weigh anything at all.

AussieIROC66

$1,199.00 /Pair

OK.... NOT Gullwings but the Verticals look good
www.andysautosport.com

GTA50

You really need to do a lot of homework on this idea. There are three cars to look at...

Mercedes Benz 300SL

Delorean DMC

Mercedes Benz SLS/AMG

Off the top I'm aleady thinking sub-frame connectors, no T-roof, probably C&C type reinforcements plus........

Okay, now to show that I am not talking from the bottom of a beer glas,

My starting point would be a squaretube subframe around the door pillars and T-roof, with subrame connectors and the strut-bar brace across the front struts.Maybe a little heavy to anchor the doors, but I hope you see where I'm coming from. That is why you need to see how it was done at the factory.

deadbird

Maybe in another 7 years, someone will resurrect the post again building on that idea...

Hal87

iTrader: (1)

I found this on Ebay yesterday by accident: http://www.ebay.com/itm/VDI-PONTIAC-...55267314451003