mlbinseattle

I've got an '84 Z28 with the sagging doors. I've purchased the top/lower hinge pins/bushings and want to get started. I'm sure these questions have been asked a million times, but I still couldn't find answers using a search.

Questions:

1. It appears that the door side of these hinges are tack welded to the door. Is it easier to just remove the entire door during the hinge rebuild process, or is this usually done with the door in place?

2. If it's easier to remove the door, are the nuts (for the bolts that go through the body) welded to the body? Or, do I need to remove the kick-panel and put a wrench or socket on those nuts? I'm thinking those nuts were tack welded to the body so it would be easier to install the doors and insert the bolts, but I figured I'd ask the question before I got started.

Thanks in advance for any help that can be offered.

static80

When I did mine I removed the whole door. You need to take the kick panel off. The nuts are loose and the holes are slightly over sized so that you can adjust the door when you install it to line up the door gaps. Make sure the door is supported if you remove it because they are heavy, you won't be able to hold it with one hand.

mlbinseattle

Thanks for the response. I appreciate that.

I know these doors are heavy; thus the sag. I intend to use an engine hoist and a strap on the door for support during the removal process. I'll probably need to strap the door at both ends with the window in the down position. I'll probably just let the door hang there while I knock out the pins and bushings. I suppose it would be easier to just lay it down on a sheet of plywood. If you suggest a better way, I'd like to hear it.

I know the new bushings can be tapped into place to a point, but I'm thinking that those will need to get pressed into place the rest of the way. I could use a large vise to press those bushings into place, but that would be pretty awkward with the hinge still attached to the door. Either that or fashion a tool to press the bushings into place with. What did you use?

Also, did you need to do anything with the detent pin and roller?

static80

My detent pin and roller are toast and I haven't fixed them yet. The old top pins are like big rivets and need the heads ground off then pound them out. Mine was actually so worn out that the new bushings fit in with room to spare, so I put a tiny bit of JB weld around them to take up the extra space. Yours might be different, But the bushing is made of a softer metal, and looks like it is splined around the outside. I assume that the metal is supposed to flatten itself when it is pressed in thus the "splines" that allow the metal to deform and still have room to fit without making the hole smaller. I don't think you will need a press to get them in.

mlbinseattle

I was looking at the hinge assembly, and it occurred to me that the hinge doesn't turn on the detent pin ... just the other pin. (I was wondering why there wasn't any replacement parts in the kits for the detent pin and roller. Now, I see why. Apparently, the door sag is due to the pins/bushings that the hinge rotates on.) The detent roller/bushing looks pretty worn, but it's still functional. Along with the hinge pin and bushing kit, I purchased the assortment of different size bushings just to have on-hand. If one of those bushings looks like it'll work, I may go ahead and replace the detent bushing.

I was looking at the GM service manual for '82 - '92 Camaros, and according to that, the door can be removed during the hinge rebuild by removing the spring and pins. The body side of the hinge remains on the body without unbolting it. I'm going to try that, but if it appears that it's going to get cumbersome working in that limited space, I'll go ahead and un-bolt the hinge from the body and remove the entire door that way.

It also occurred to me that I have several good size C-clamps that I can use with a large socket to press the bushings in with if needed, so that won't be a problem.

The process looks pretty straight-forward. I went ahead and purchased a spring compressor tool to compress the spring with, so I'll get busy after it arrives.

Thanks again for the help and the input. I really appreciate that.

lonsal

iTrader: (2)

AndyZ28 prefers to unbolt and remove the door and lay it on the floor. I don't do it this way because it requires you to un-wire the door (PDL & PW). Instead I prefer to do the repair with the door hanging in place. I have a special door hanging tool to accomplish the task. It is on a frame with wheels, has a jack that supports the bottom of the door, a door striker bolt that secures the door at the latch and another arm that adjusts and comes down to hold the top of the door (with the window down).

You can use your engine hoist and nylon straps, or a floor jack with carpeting covering the saddle and a ladder formed into an "A" placed over the opened door and the gap between the door and ladder stuffed with towels.

The job is easier if you remove the inner door panel. This is necessary just to access one stupid hidden screw that holds the large triangular-shaped piece at the top of the door weatherstrip. Once you have that unscrewed you remove the door weatherstrip retaining clips and fold it down and out of your way. This allows you MUCH more room to grind off the head of the upper pin using s Dremel tool and a 3 fiber-reinforced metal cutoff wheels mounted on the mandrel. cover the area behind the upper door hinge pin with electrical tape in case you slip while grinding the pin so you don't grind off some paint.

With the kit I sell (made by AndyZ28) you need to re-size the hole for the upper bushings. They MUST be a slip-fit or they will shrink slightly when you install them and impinge on the new door pin (due to the very close clearance between the two). The bushings are glued in place with the loctite provided in the kit. I find it easier to install them if you place them on the pin with the small diameter facing out and slowly rotate them while you use the Dremel tool to grind a small chamfer on the bushing.

If you are using a GM door spring tool to remove and re-install the door spring, I have a tip for that too. Open the tool as much as possible, then gently hammer it onto the largest open coil you can reach. Once you have fully compressed the spring and removed it, open the tool again and install the spring again capturing one more coil. Compress the tool fully again. This will make it MUCH easier to install the spring. Once you have installed the spring and fully opened the spring tool you will use a pry bar or large flat-blade screwdriver to pop the tool free of the door spring.

If you are replacing the door detent roller, unbolt the A-pillar half of the hinge. I have a HUGE bench vice that I put it in, then I grind a slot into the larger diameter column that the door detent roller pin is pressed into using a single fiber reinforced metal cutoff blade. I grind the slot all the way down to the detent pin. It makes it much easier to pry out and remove the pin because it relieves much of the press-fit pressure on the pin. Once I have the old pin out I weld up that slot, grind it flush and paint it. Then it is ready to press in the new pin and roller. The protruded plastic part of door detent roller goes face down when you install it. Be careful you don't press it in too far or the pin will impinge on the roller preventing it from rolling freely.

I do sell the door detent pin and roller.

http://www.top-downsolutions.com/Bod...and-roller-kit

That's about all the tips I can offer.

Good luck with the repair.

Lon Salgren

tunatrky

Oh my. I imagine Ionsal's work on the hinge assemblies would be amazing, along with the proper kits. I wish I had the necessary cutting tools and vice for this job. Honestly, I purchased my lower door pins and bushings locally, and I'm going to replace the lowers and call it a day. I'm sure they won't be back to OEM specs but I hope the sag improves. The upper requires a bit more tooling than I've got. I do recall having door pin problems on a '78 Monte Carlo. Gigantic doors just like these F bodies. The doors would hardly shut due to wear. I replaced the entire hinge assemblies and afterward they worked very well. It wasn't a menacing job on the G Body either, just required a few friends and some frustration.

I looked on eBay for entire hinge assemblies but there are only 1st and 2nd gen F bodies....

Here's one for '70s f body: http://www.ebay.com/itm/70-81-F-Body-71-76-Impala-Caprice-Upper-Door-hinge-RH-/251640256331?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3a96ed974b&vxp=mtrUnfortunately it's from China.

I wonder if there are any for the 3rd gens

ANDYZ28

For those who have not done the door hinge repair on the '82-'92 F body cars (3rdgen Camaro or Firebird) you may find it helpful to review this article from Chevy High Performance Magazine

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/060...-chevy-camaro/

It a well written article and has good photo detail.

The fit of the upper door hinge bushings to the pins is precision fit and requires careful assembly to prevent any binding between the two. This is why I prefer and recommend removing the door for the repair.

http://www.andyz28.com/3rdGen/installation.html

The door hinges on the 3rdgen F body cars are not just "tack welded" to the doors, but in fact they MIG welded very heavily from the inside of the door. The whole reason that the upper door hinge repair kit even exists is because removing the door side portion is nothing short of brutal. I know, because I have done it. Here is the "official" GM solution to a worn out upper door hinge assy. http://www.andyz28.com/3rdGen/gmmanual.html

Please let us know what the members think of the GM solution.

Thanks, Andy

mlbinseattle

I do appreciate the tips, especially the one about the spring tool. Just from looking at the space with the door installed and the fact that I don't have a dremmel tool ... just an angle grinder ... I wasn't going to attempt replacing anything with the door in place. Mainly because, there isn't any room to get an angle grinder in that close space.

I may purchase the detent pin and roller, but my question is: If the one I have is still functional (although worn quite a bit), would it even be necessary to replace it? I suppose that's a matter of preference. I suppose I should just go ahead and replace the thing and get it over with while I have the door off.

I had already purchased the hinge pin/bushing kits from Rock Auto before I ever started this thread. One thing I noticed, the bushings appear to be made out of brass. I found this odd since brass is a relatively soft metal compared to carbon steel.

mlbinseattle

Thanks for all the information! The pics and instructions really helped put things into a better perspective. I was planning to grind the heads off the top hinge pins with a 4 1/2" angle grinder, but I may just need to get a dremmel tool.

As far as your question goes about the hinges being welded to the door, I don't know why anyone would want to attempt to remove those welds from the door just to get the hinge removed. I had looked at the hinge again prior to reading your post, and I could see that the welds were more than just tack welds. It appears that the welds are within the holes that exist on the door side of hinge, and I couldn't think of any good way of grinding that hinge off without destroying it and damaging the door. I wouldn't attempt it.

lonsal

iTrader: (2)

You will need to buy or borrow a Dremel style tool to grind off the pins. I use a Black and Decker RTX. At the time I purchased them they had more power than the Dremel tools on the market, but Dremel has stepped up their game and makes models with more power too. Another option to use is an air operated die grinder with a 1/8" chuck swapped for the normal 1/4" chuck. Regardless, you still used the same 1/8" mandrel with 2 to 3 fiber-reinforced blades stacked up.

Yes I would replace the detent roller and pin while you are at it. You already have the door and detent spring removed. Now is the time to do the repair. Just remember for future longevity the door detent roller is one of the items you should be lubing with the long straw and aerosol white lithium grease along with the door latch, when you do an oil change on the car or annually.

Lon

mlbinseattle

Thanks for the input. I was looking at the hinges some more, and yes, I'll definitely need a dremmel tool. I'm going to order the detent pins and rollers before I start anything. I'll keep the lubrication of this item in mind during oil changes as you recommended.

mlbinseattle

Here's an update:

I finally purchased a Dremmel tool. It's the Dremmel 3000. and it's one step down from the top of the line model. Variable speed and works really well. I used it, yesterday, to change out the hinge pins and bushings on the driver's side door.

I took the inside door panel off, disconnected the wiring, and pulled it out about 4 inches to provide some slack to pull the door away far enough to change the hinge bushings. The door remained in the straps and hanging from the engine hoist the entire time.

I had to remove the triangular shaped weatherstrip piece at the top right hand corner of the door to gain full access to the top of the top hinge pin on the top hinge. There were actually 2 screws holding that in place.

All in all, it was a fairly straightforward job. No hiccups. However, it wasn't any 45 minute job. lol. From beginning to end, I spent probably 6 hours. Of course, this was my first time, and I took my time to ensure that I didn't screw up anything.

I used the 1 1/2" metal cutoff discs, and even using those, I wasn't able to fully cut the head off the top hinge pin. I used a chisel and a hammer to knock off the remaining little bit of head. What would have made it so much better is if I would have gotten the flexible shaft attachment for the Dremmel tool. I believe I could have gotten into the space much better to grind off the pin heads.

Also, when I took the door spring out, I couldn't get it out using the spring compression tool. I used the large screwdriver and prying technique. It popped right out with no problem. I definitely had to use the spring compression tool to re-install the spring.

All in all, it wasn't so bad. The passenger side door is next, but it's not that bad right now, and it's raining. (Good ole Seattle area.) I'll probably do that door in the next several days when the rain slacks up a bit. The driver side door now shuts like a champ.