Wiggles

This is what happened last night:

Engine starts, choke flap opens slightly as it should then about 3-4 mins later the rpms begin to slowly increase to about 1800, I hit the throttle once and the rpms decrease to about 500, 400, 600...but being very sporadic. The check engine light came on and stayed on for about 4 minutes. At this point it wanted to die, but then jumped back up to 600 rpms then to 500, 600, 400 etc. At this point, the engine has been running for a good 9 minutes.

After reading several useful articles here, I was able to make sense of the idle adjustments. I decided to adjust the curb idle speed screw on the driver's side, turning the screw clockwise very slowly. I didn't notice anything different until I pulled the throttle cable and wow, it jumped at 1500 rpm and became stable. I know that's slightly high, but whatever, I can tune it down to about 1000 or so. I turned the engine off and during the next 7 minutes packed up my tools and whatnot. Before going in for the evening, I decided to turn her over once again. Didn't pump the gas, simply turned the key but she didn't want to start. Had to hold my foot onto the gas for 6 seconds then she started up. It wasn't too chilly outside either.

Here's some details that may be useful (or not):
-new fuel tank, new fuel sending unit, new fuel
-new mechanical fuel pump
-new fuel lines from hard line to pump and hard line to pump-return line
-new braided stainless line from pump to carb
-2 new inline clear fuel filters - 1 before the pump and 1 before the carb fuel inlet
-new fuel filter inside carb itself


Using a stock E4ME qjet...the early thirdgen type with 1 less vacuum connector than the later models.

Oh, and I didn't hear any hissing vacuum leaks nor is there any fuel leaking from pump or carb inlets.

What could the problem be?

scooter500

iTrader: (1)

That's pretty much how my car acted some time ago when the electric choke was not connected due to a bad connector. I replaced the choke connector and the electric choke has allowed quick warm ups ever since. There was a relay replaced on the firewall by the battery.

Wiggles

Here's an update:
(I actually purchased a new choke pigtail 2 weeks ago but didn't bother installing it until tonight)

Note: I know you guys would rather I cut to the chase and not talk about "what I did" in between driving and such, but I'm trying to provide as much info as possible to aid in troubleshooting. Have a beer while you read this or something.

Removed old choke pigtail and installed new one using a butt connector (and not half assed). Car started up fine, warmed up fairly quick and choke flap worked as normal. Once the rpms reached about 2000 rpms, I kicked down the gas pedal and she ran at at about 900 rpms, but then very sporadic at 400 , 600, 700, and real low to 300, then jumped to 900, then to 700. I held the gas pedal down lightly for a few seconds and she seemed stable at 1100 rpms.

Decided to run at the local park so I shut her off, changed clothes quickly and proceeded to start her up again. Didn't start up regardless of being fully warmed up...had to pump the gas 3 times before she started up.

Drove 4 miles from home to the local park - she idled at stop signs and red lights at a solid 1400 rpms with no dips or sudden spikes. After my 32 minute run, it was time to go home. Tried to start her up, it sounded like the starter was cranking slower than usual but she did start without pumping the gas. Before taking off, I noticed the rpms dipped real low to 400 rpms, then to 600, then to 500, real sporadic. After 2 mins of running in idle while hitting the gas a few times, she seemed to be stable at 1200 rpms. I took off and proceeded to drive home.

During my 4 mile trip home, she idled at a solid 1400 rpm at each stoplight/stop sign. Only at one stoplight did she run strange -> light turned green and once I put her in gear, hitting the gas did nothing, then when I let the gas pedal out a bit, I was jerked forward and the tach suddenly jumped from 500 to 1,000 with a strange delay. The rest of the trip home was fine.

*I also want to add that about every 5 minutes during the trip to and from the park, the check engine light came on for about 2 mins, then shut off. *

Anyone have any ideas of what I'm experiencing or whats going on wrong?

RocketyMan

Alright alright, mr. wiggles.

Your q-jet is the stock one for the car, right? The CCC one. Soo..

Some simple questions:
Do you know if your car is getting into closed loop?
What's your vacuum at idle? (It's good to check to see if you might have any possible leaks as well as a good guess for timing)
Do you feel your electric choke get hot on the side (and opening up fully for that matter)?



I'm guessing the sporadic idle is due the the ECM trying to compensate for the mixture it's receiving. And that's what mine did because of the cold weather, it was too lean. So all I had to do was adjust the idle air bleed and it was good. Yours just might not be adjusted right. Something simple.

I think your fix could be really easy.

Wiggles

Had some time to start her up this late afternoon...took aircleaner off so I could monitor the choke flap and such.

Some simple questions:Yes, it appears as if a closed loop is taking place
I do have a vacuum pump/gauge but I'm not sure what to check. All original emissions equipment is present and all lines were replaced last July with the proper routing. I do not hear any hissing.
It was quite warm to the touch after running for about roughly 5 minutes and the flap does open up.


I read in the repair manual that unhooking the EGR vacuum line would cause the engine speed to increase (but it didn't change anything). I placed the vacuum pump onto the EGR valve and didn't have any reading, which I understand is supposed to be normal at idle. I gave it 6 pumps and the gauge seemed to hold for a split second at about 1.5 hg or so.

Here's what else I noticed: when the idle began to sink rapidly, I pulled the throttle cable to keep it from dying and noticed fuel was flowing like a mini waterfall out of the hole right below the idle air bleed valve. I also noticed fuel leaking out of the air horn gasket, pump rod, and MCS . White steamy smoke was coming out of the primary flaps as well.

I guess it's safe to say the carburetor is flooding

RocketyMan

ohhh boy...this is busy.

Mk:
1. For vacuum, there's a nice little spot where you can hook up a vacuum gauge off of the T-shaped piece off the carburetor. One That goes to the vacuum break, and the other that's suppose to go to the air cleaner flaps.

Just take one off and see what your vacuum gauge is reading. You want around 20" Hg. Don't worry about the EGR. If you are, you can plug off that vac line.

I truly don't know what you mean by pumping it 6 times with only 1.5" Hg...You would want to be checking vacuum, which a healthy engine creates on its own aspiration; granted no vacuum "leaks."


2. The only way you can check if your car is in closed loop is when you have a dwell meter (or something similar) hooked up and when the dwell is "varying." I'm sure a very good scanner might be able to tell...but you can't tell if it's in closed loop by saying:

You need to actually verify it.


3. I'm guessing maybe your new to carbs, but there's suppose to be fuel squirting when you throttle it. It helps transition when the butterfly is on the idle circuit opening up.

But fuel coming out where the pump is...well bad. If you can see fuel squirting on the OUTside...YIKES! The fuel should only be going in at the primaries like that. And all the MCS does is push the metering rods up or down depending on what the ECM is telling the MCS what to do mixture-wise.

It almost sounds like you should give your q-jet a good rebuild.

Let me know what you think and if you can clarify anything up.

naf

iTrader: (7)

If fuel is coming out anywhere on the outside of the carb, it's time to open it up and find out why. A rebuild is pretty simple.

You could pull codes off the ECM to see what's tripping but your fuel spillage issue is a stronger indication that somethings FUBAR in the carb.

Wiggles

Thanks for the quick replies.

Rocketyman, I have no dwell meter, so you're right, I have no idea if closed loop is actually taking place. While I am new to carburetors, I do understand that fuel should be squirting, but only internally, but overflowing from the accel pump and running down onto the intake manifold area..that's bad.

naf, I think you and Rockeyman are both right; a rebuild should be performed. I'm thinking there's still some debris lodged inside from when I had that rusted fuel tank and sending unit issue back in November 2010.

On another note, I took apart my other (post '85 with extra vac line) ccc qjet e4me since the choke rod was stuck open; I took it apart and found out that the rod had disconnected for some odd reason. This gave me a chance to see how advanced the qjet really is. I wish the Doug Roe book had step by step pictorial instructions on how to disassemble/assemble but it does not.

I'll let you know what I find out over the next few weeks. I'm not giving up!

Thanks again for the replies!

RocketyMan

If you have a craftsman multi-meter, there's a setting on there called "Freq %duty cycle" that can measure how often the MCS dwells. I know the old fashioned (hopefully nobody slaps me for saying that) dwell meters are getting harder and harder to find. But that's ok.

But with your carb rebuild, post any pictures and ask any questions if you ever get stuck. q-jets look rather intimidating, BUT with patients it's really not that bad.

jsting7

hi there guys,I was wondering if you can help me,well this is my little problem,I replace the EGR on my Iroc 86 TPI Automatic transmission engine 305 code F ,so to gain access to the EGR you have to remove the plenum so I replaced so far so good I did label my vacuum lines, but I miss one I don't even recall to see it is the one that comes from the harness,so if anybody has pictures or knows how to to do it i really aprecciate thank you and am sorry for interrup the main question

Wiggles

Update:

Managed to get a rebuilt CCC E4ME carb, but I didn't give them my old core; found an old Edelbrock in the hatchback trunk area and turned that in as the core.

Hooked up new rebuilt carb, and all connectors/vacuum lines associated with it. Finally started her up, ran severely rough for 3 seconds, then died. This went on for nearly 10 minutes. After holding my foot on the gas pedal, she finally started, but I had to keep my foot there. After running for 2 minutes, I let go of the gas and she ran on her own. I could hear the rpms increase and watched the choke flap slowly open. I even felt the side of the choke, it was quite warm.

I attempted to kick down the throttle, but the rpms remained at 2,900, I then proceeded to adjust the curb idle speed, but the screw wasn't even touching the throttle connection; it appeared to be turned all the way out counter clockwise. I noticed the exhaust was super rich smelling at this point.

I turned her off and packed up my tools. Attempted to start her up again, nothing. Tried several times, but she didn't start. I noticed fuel was dripping off the choke flap and was oozing out of the idle air bleed valve.

I waited 2 days before attempting to start her up again. She dies immediately after starting up, then won't start at all.

Did I get a shoddy rebuild?

scooter500

iTrader: (1)

Probably not. Carbs have to be tuned after being rebuilt. Recommend assuming the mixture control solenoid and float level is gtg. You may be able to lower the rpms by adjusting the fast idle cam set screw by turning it out (counter clockwise) 1/2 a turn or so. You'll need to adjust the idle mixture screws (turn them in clockwise until they gently stop and turn them out again 3 turns using a double "D" carb adjustment tool from autozone etc). The throttle valve or tv cable gets adjusted too (super easy). The TPS or throttle position sensor gets adjusted when the car is dead cold with the key on using a digital meter to .41 volts. This should gets you running.

After that fine tune by adjusting the idle air bleed valve. You can find lots of previous posts on this by search Thirdgen.org and then there's the reference posts in the the sticky section.

naf

iTrader: (7)

With the choke flap fully open the fast idle cam (behind the choke) should drop when the throttle is blipped and allow the throttle to rest on the curb idle screw. You have to open the throttle slightly to take the throttle off of the fast idle cam to allow it to drop.

If it's not dropping right try manipulating it by hand to get it to the curb idle. Follow the directions in the sticky to set the fast idle and curb idle and adjust the choke if necessary.

Wiggles

Got it (well, partially). The idle mixture screws are hard to reach...they're a different length compared to my other ccc qjet so I took the carb off yesterday and carefully adjusted both mixture idle screws. Popped carb back on and she fired right up. I let her fully warm up and adjusted the curb idle speed..1,400 rpm seemed to be the most stable, no dipping...anything lower than that and the rpms seemed to jump around.

Took her for a drive, noticed that at a few stop lights, the idle began to jump up and down a bit. I also noticed that first gear would bog down, but not every time.

I noticed that the secondary flaps wouldn't close all the way, the needles seem to stick inside. The hanger was malformed so I carefully bent it so that the needles would freely move while the flaps opened and closed.

Here's where I ran into a problem - after adjusting the choke coil and starting her up again, I noticed fuel was leaking from the throttle body on both sides ... the fast idle cam and the main throttle assembly. I double checked that all 4 carb mounting screws were properly fastened.

Is there something wrong with the float?

I'm glad to have made it this far, I'm actually learning something.

Thanks for the replies,

-wiggles

RocketyMan

You said you managed to get a rebuilt CCC...Do you mean you rebuilt it or did someone else?

I'm wondering if the float is properly adjusted. If Not it could start overflowing by not closing the needle. Or maybe the needle is having issues.

Your idle shouldn't be surging at all really. And 1400 rpms is the lowest you can get it? That is way too high to be enjoyable. Something is just not right. It needs to be like half that at like 750-700 for automatic.

The secondary metering rods should have a nice seat when the secondary flaps close all the way. The flaps should be closed real tight from the vacuum break.

scooter500

iTrader: (1)

You said "I noticed fuel was leaking from the throttle body on both sides ... the fast idle cam and the main throttle assembly." Where? That's serious in my book.

To correct this you could take a torx and try to tighten down the top screws (snug but don't overdo--see the sticky in this section for instructions showing recommended order to tighten the 11 top screws).

If your carb is still leaking from the bottom then try to tighten up the bottom screws too. take linkage, disconnect wires, and large 4 bolts off. Careful not to overtighten the carb bolts when putting back on (they just get wrenched down to 7 & 11 ft pounds, can't recall which ones get 7 and which get 11 ft lbs though, should be in the sticky).

Wiggles

-It was a rebuild purchased from Checkers and rebuilt by Holley (yeah I know,that sounds odd but I guess they rebuild a wide variety of carburetors. Despite this it is a ccc qjet e4me model). A little certificate inside the box said it was 100% wet flow tested at the service center, but what? On a lawnmower?!

The leaking fuel was literally coming out of the throttle assembly, the actual hole where the throttle linkage connects horizontally from driver's side to passenger's side. I hope that makes sense. For some reason, I can't locate that part on the exploded parts diagram, sorry.

I will check this evening for proper tightness. If that's not it, then maybe the float needle isn't working properly, I spoke to someone at the local hot rod shop and he suggested that possibility as well.

RocketyMan

Can you try taking a picture of the carb and then like drawing a circle around it in windows paint?

It doesn't make sense for a re-manned to be leaking like that. I would almost immediately take it back and get a refund or exchange!

scooter500

iTrader: (1)

there is a possibility your carb has worn and now needs some brass bushings installed...

Wiggles

Removed carb, and checked the bottom throttle body assembly screws, 2 out of 3 needed a 1/8 turn or so.

Here's what happened once I started her up:

1. choke began to work within 30 secs, rpms climbed to 2,200 rpm
2. she warmed up for 4 mins, then pulled throttle and rpms sank down to 2,000 rpm
3. turned curb idle screw ccw a few small turns and she reached 1,000 rpms...very stable

After running for nearly 8 mins total, I thought all was well and turned her off. I then noticed a great deal of fuel spewing from the driver's throttle assembly. I quickly checked the passenger side, but since the choke is in the way, I couldn't pinpoint the area. The pictures speak for themselves:









The carb spacer is saturated with fuel, and you can see it coming out of the accelerator pump as well. I think this reman is bad. Oh, and I also loosened all 13 air horn screws and tightened them to spec as seen in the picture: (I also cross referenced my chilton manual and '84 factory service manual just to be sure) -

naf

iTrader: (7)

If it's leaking out at the top it's not a carburetor gasket problem. The fuel should not get that high if the float if functioning correctly.

Since this has happened to two different carbs now, I'd take a quick look at your fuel system. Did you install a new fuel pump in the tank?

Random current project pic:

RocketyMan

Good pictures, Mr. Wiggles. They always help identify what you're talking about more clearly.

If you can see fuel squirt evenly out the primary holes when you throttle it, then I'd assume the rubber gasket on the accelerator pump is fine. But from your pictures, it seems to be overflowing from gas, and I would assume not from your accel pump.

Like naf said, it wouldn't be so much a gasket problem -- up to that point because the bowl is contained all within the main body of the carb (no cracks in the main carb body). The top gasket just serves to cover the top part of it. Since the fuel is getting up to that point, the gasket is absorbing the fuel and basically leaking it out.

So I would say your next course of action (granted if you don't exchange for a new carb) would be to see what is up with your fuel delivery.

It can only be a few things from here on:

1. Your float could have a hole in it or something that basically makes it not float.
2. The float needle&seat lost it's resilience and is no longer able to cut off the fuel when the float is trying to close it.
3. Your fuel pressure is somehow too high.

It could also be any combination of those. Now I know you're running solely off your mechanical fuel pump and so the fuel pressure shouldn't be any greater than...what.. 8 psi?? So I would go with either the float or needle&seat [granted fuel delivery is working correctly].

Wiggles

No in-tank pump, just an Airtex brand oem mechanical fuel pump is present which I installed myself on Feb 27 of this year. There was an in-tank pump back in Jan, but it was removed and an extended stainless steel pickup tube was installed in it's place.

Should I remove the airhorn and inspect the float and float needle? I'm new to this and not sure what to look for.

naf

iTrader: (7)

You may want to tee a gage into the fuel line to the carb (you can use a temporary rubber line to replace the steel for this). See what the pressure is running, then disconnect the return line and dump it into a container-see if there's any difference in fuel pressures.

RocketyMan

To me it's really not that hard cracking open a q-jet. But if you are, I would def just take it off the car so you don't get any small screws or other 'things' in the intake. Plus it's just easier to mess around with. I.e. adjusting the idle mix screws, or checking out the float and needle-in this case.

From what you said about your mech fuel pump, it shouldn't be the problem if it's rather new.

Wiggles

I took the carb back and got another one, they said "its been over 90 days since you purchased the 1st one, but we'll be nice this time, but this is your last one."

Popped it on, and over the next 30 mins I did the following: Fine tuned the fast idle cam and slightly turned the idle mixture screws clockwise 1/8 turn each, and eventually obtained a steady idle at 2,000 rpms. Once she fully warmed up, kicked down the throttle, and adjusted the curb idle speed to a nice 900 rpms. Everything was running great...

I then heard the hissing sound of water when it hits a pan over a hot stove and saw copious amounts of fuel gushing from the throttle linkage on the passenger side literally underneath the choke housing and steaming all over the intake manifold area. This rebuilt carb actually appears to be healthy so I doubt the float is malfunctioning on this one. (In all honesty, I think the last carb that I exchanged was indeed not causing the issue.)

I will be performing a fuel pressure test at my mechanic-friends house this Saturday. He's suggesting that the return line in the pump may be partially clogged.

-yes, I will be doing this.

I really, really, really appreciate all your help with assisting me on this problem and not giving up or telling me "take it to a mechanic"

I will post the results next week after the pressure tests.

I want to say something really good thing about this whole thread/experience: after all the suggestions and troubleshooting you guys have given me, I actually learned how to properly tune the idle and choke on the qjet, and to me, that's a real win!

naf

iTrader: (7)

Non-return style mechanical pumps are designed for the diaphragm to "float" when fuel is not needed, and hence not over pressurize the line to the carb. I've not looked into the workings of the return style but it's within the realm of possibility that a bad pump and/or clogged return could cause your problems. Let us know what you find.

mooch1

this may sound crazy, but have you checked your alternator?....on my car i would have low weird rpms..but i had to give gas to keep the car on..the regulator was malfunctioning in the alternator and causing the battery to drain and then would charge on and off causing the idle to act weird...just a thought.

Wiggles

Fixed 100%

The problem - mechanic friend took one look at the rebuilt carburetor and said, "oh boy, this is a mess". He immediately found several issues wrong with the carburetor... 1) secondary lockout rod lever bent and installed incorrectly 2) secondary metering rods and hanger were bent 3) secondary mechanical tang/lever bent 4) float level set too high and float appeared to be porous 5) primary throttle plate was bent 6) choke housing had uneven wear, causing heater coil to bind up 7) fuel inlet plastic washers were jammed sideways inside 8) rich/lean screws were completely off (I figured that at least). He said, "that poor carburetor looks as though it's been dropped several times and worked on by a primate."


The fix - we cannibalized parts from my (original) qjet to fix this one. Luckily, I had a rebuild kit in the back seat that was purchased a while back; we used about 40% of the parts in it. We also disconnected the main and return fuel lines from the pump and sending unit and blew compressed air through them.

The result - The old bird runs great now. No surging, bogging, hesitation or flooding. No more check engine light. This is the way it ran back in October.


Thanks for all your help regarding this problem. In the end, it was just poorly rebuilt carburetor(s) that caused the abundance of issues. I learned several things from all of this as well.

-Wiggles

RocketyMan

Well that is truly good to hear that it's working now!


But that is very disturbing if the remanned was a POS and that it was like your second one you exchanged. That's just ridiculous!


Ohwell...good to know it works now!

Wiggles

I'm very very happy that it's running too

Here's how I feel:

91phoenix

iTrader: (5)

It does not surprise me about the remanned carbs because I had that same problem when I was first learning about cars. Thought I needed a carb for the car I had and bought a rebuilt one from Holley no less and the entire top choke horn cover was warped and had obvious gaps so it could not seal. The paperwork had said inspected and flow tested. I brought the paperwork in when bringing it back. They put in a call to Holley and got told that one must have slipped through. The parts store then told me that that means that they do not inspect or flow check each carb so buyer beware. My next one was good though.

Awesome-X

I know I'm necro posting here but where did you buy your carb from? I work for a refurbishing company and I can tell you first hand only 1 in 10 or so of our products go to final quality assurance, most just to quality control where they are just tested for the basics.

Wiggles

The remanufactured E4ME qjet was purchased from an O'Reilly Auto Parts store. One carb was remanned by JWI Enterprises, (I think that's the correct name)the next Holley, and I fail to recall the last one. Each qjet had several issues - bent secondary metering rods, fuel filter inlet gaskets jammed sideways, rusted choke rods, faulty float needle, one even had a porous float, etc.

Together with my original qjet (didn't turn in original as a core, gave them an Edelbrock 1406 instead, really glad I did that), the last remanned qjet and a rebuild kit, I was able to cannibalize parts from both and get a solid working carburetor. Been running good ever since, too.