Speedgraphic

The pasting below was from a Trade Paper that I get in my email every morning. It really is no wonder to me that GM is in trouble. They lost touch with their customer base.

If it were possible for them to learn a hard lesson without severely hurting our country the news would be pleasing to me...

--------------------------------------------------

S&P cuts GM ratings to junk
GM's woes continue: Standard & Poor's cut its long- and short-term corporate credit ratings on General Motors, GMAC, and all related entities by two notches to "BB/B-1," or junk status, from "BBB-/A-3." The rating outlook, according to Marketwatch, is negative. S&P said the move reflects its conclusion that management's strategies may be ineffective in addressing GM's competitive disadvantages, though it notes that GM shouldn't have any difficulty accommodating its near-term cash requirements. The bid by Kirk Kerkorian's Tracinda Corp. to increase its ownership stake in GM represents an additional uncertainty, S&P said, but said this was not a factor at all in the current rating action.

dual_88s

S&P also cut Ford to junk status

Both manufacturer's primarily because of their **** poor sales of SUV's. With the gas crunch, the manufs. did not reposnd and cut their SUV production numbers so they are way overloaded in them and it is hrting theior bottomlines.

Parrydise7

iTrader: (1)

In another post, some time ago, IIRC, somebody mentioned that Bob Lutz (again, IIRC) who came over from Chrysler, was the guy that killed off the next generation Camaro so GM could focus on SUVs.

What a great idea.

gmgod

Hopfully they and the rest of the public will get the picture.

Bill Speed

I'm first in line to cry foul in GM's current approach of trying to play catchup, ever since it introduced the Caddy that Zigs and the Escalade, however that vehicle managed to sway the custom car 'lot'/hip hop star segment, it was a long shot, and the Denali was just not as cool I guess.

Anyway, from Car Craft's news report, the Bonneville waves good bye, at the same time, the next gen Corvette promises to technically be one of the best GM cars of all time, at a price tag of $70K, not really an option for people like us! haha
It's pretty amazing coming from a company that is pretty boring, to put it bluntly, these days. The Corvette's chassis is near exotic and promises 500HP!

Bill

Speedgraphic

OK here is my point.

Who has been out and looked at a GTO.
I'll be danged if I can tell the diffrence between a GTO and a Grand Am or Grand Prix even from ten feet.

Granted, under the sheetmetal you will find some nice hardware, but the price of admission is just too high. Another good example is that POS they came out with that can't make up it's mind if it is a small truck or a roadster. Yeah, it's cute, has good performance, and if it sold in the low to mid twenties it would probably sell like hotcakes. Selling in the mid-fifties it might as well be an Edsel.

Ever stop to wonder why Fbodies are so popular? I can't tell you how many people have admired mine and talked about one that they owned or their brother or uncle or cousin... They were cars that were affordable to the masses. They were good cars and a pleasure to own. These cars enticed generations of car owners, and built a lot of brand loyalty in the people who owned or even just admired the cars.

Face it. GM has to sell a lot of cars to be profitible. If you are going to sell cars in that quantity you have to have products that people want at prices they can afford and your target has to be EVERYBODY.

I make enough money that I could afford to pretty much drive anything I want, but I just can't justify putting fifty thousand dollars into a depreciating asset.

I have been a "Chevy Man" all my life. I own three Chevys right now, but at this point I don't see any reason for brand loyalty any more. I am also a "buy American" kind of guy, but the next car I purchase will be selected from all the vehicles made anywhere in the world.

Speedy

Bill Speed

I'd be willing to say Chevrolet has about the same importance at GM as Cadillac does, but on the same token, Cadillac had a great, awesome legacy it dropped the ball on, being the former Standard of the World. As the Japanese have always done, they took an idea and polished it in a way few have equalled. You have to take a hat off to them for the time frame in which they were able to make these strides, but at the same time USA makers wasted money, talant and effort instead of investing back into the effort of reclaiming the lost ground.
I think it was alot of mismanagement in the 80s, and a new group od people at GM hastily throwing off what traditions need to stay in the brands people associate with. Don't copy imports, try to have them copy us. It's better that way, and I think in some regard it was the reverse.

People did migrate due to safety, economy, better quality, etc, but those are only partial reasons. GM has too many projects to really do well, similar to Sony I'd say. Smaller companies can focus more intently on a problem and achieve results in short order. I'd say in relation to F cars, Trans Am is much more notable in people's minds generally then Firebird... To the same extent as Camaros, in the fact people will always use those two in vocally pointing out the cars, I've noticed. If GM brought back the Firebird, maybe as the Trans Am only, it would associate in minds better

It was Bob Lutz who said the Firebird was dead, but recent speculation of the Camaro's return is likely why he didn't mention that F Car as well, it's just strange. He was brought in with the prospect of revitalizing GM, with an enthusiest's touch or so I read, I don't care for things he's done though

I agree most that affordable cars are where this problem [at least one of them] does lie as well.

BILL

carfixxer

GM always shoots itself in the foot!
Last month Lutz canceled the Zeta concept production car.
For those who arent familiar:
Buick Velite 4 passenger Roadster w/
400 hp twin turbo V-6
I know this isnt a inexpensive f body type car but not everybody wants a Vette!

I sent an email to Buick about this: (their reply is on top and my letter is below):

Thank you for contacting Buick. We appreciate your interest in the
Velite! At this time, the Velite is still considered a concept vehicle.
No announcements have been made regarding its production. Please
contact us again after the first quarter of 2005 or visit www.buick.com and
www.gm.com for the latest information as it becomes available. We
value your business and apologize for any inconvenience.

We hope that this information answers your question. If you need
additional information or have further questions, please let us know via
email or by calling Buick at 1-800-422-8425, between 8:00 a.m. and 11:00
p.m., Eastern Time, seven days a week. Thank you for contacting Buick!

Sincerely,

Alison Fritzius
Customer Relationship Manager
Buick

You have received this email advertising GM products and services in
response to your recent request for vehicle information.

Please visit the website below to opt out of receiving future e-mail
messages from General Motors.

www.vssm.gmnao.com

General Motors Corporation, 100 Renaissance Center, 482-MAR-100,
Detroit, MI 48265


#Subject=FW: 1-5GJYUR

-----Original Message-----
From: crc@buick.com
Sent: 4/22/05 10:58:44 PM
To: faq@buick.com
Subject: FW: 1-5GJYUR



Originating Email Address: crc@buick.com
#Subject=Buick Other Comment

-----Original Message-----
From: crc@buick.com
Sent: 4/22/05 3:46:15 PM
To: crc@buick.com
Subject: Buick Other Comment



Comments : Is the Buick Velite
scheduled for production?
I read press releases that
it was canceled. Is this
true? I was wondering if I
should hold onto my
current car and save my
money for the release of
the Velite or just look at
another manufacturer.
Because frankly nothing
Buick produces interests
me, I and a few of my
friends and family
members have owned a
few Buick(s) in the past;
and as far as product
loyalty goes I liked Buick
automobiles but there
has been a dismal and
disappointing selection
for the last few years. I
hope your Division is
successful in turning
around the market and
live up to the heritage
that is displayed in your
advertising here.

Bill Speed

The Corvette has progressed quite nicely, but getting away from concealed headlamps doesn't do it for me. Most of GM's new tricks (Revolution?? Where? hehe) aren't impressing my taste in cars.

I see Scosche's custom Mustang on Car Audio mag and it again impresses me as the perfect blend of old and new, and a great car for custom work. [shoot me, if you want, they got it right, what can I say]
The difference in performance and price between the F cars and the Corvette aren't the only factor, for one, you have the rear seating standard

Bill

OneBadZ4U

I am a GM guy. I should be, I own three camaro's and a suburban. The new Corvette seems to remind me of another product already on the road. Can anbody say Zoom, Zoom Zoom? The new vette looks like a Mazda. I am not a fan of it. I also think the new Mustang was half designed right. The rear of the car seems to be its sticking point. Anyhow, GM has missed the boat. It seems the best marketing/designing brand out there right now is Chrysler. Everyone wants a 300 or that Hearse looking wagon. They marketed so well that everyone thinks every one of those cars on the road has the HEMI, even though most don't. Smart, very smart. GM should have learned this when everyone wanted that new designed Ram PU of the '90's. A new Camaro or Firebird won't fix what's wrong.

Speedgraphic

You are right! The problem starts at the very top and pervades management to the bottom. Like in the Early Seventies they no longer have their finger on the pulse of their potential customers.

If they did attempt to bring back an F body I am confident at this point that they would probably screw it up at least as badly as they did with the new "GTO"!

Speedy
--------------------------------------------------------------------

OneBadZ4U

You know, I forgot about that abortion.

carfixxer

I bet many people dont realize how close the 4th gen was to being a front wheel drive car.
They appointed two design teams one front drive the other rear drive!
What a waste of money even considering making a FWD fbody! But in the end the RWD won out over a small margin..

Bill Speed

I started out with a Plymouth Horizon from the 70s, I think that was FWD transverse 4 in that bad boy. Now I have an 88 Deville with transverse V8 and FWD. Prior I had an 84 Eldo with 4.1V8, yep, HT, baby, and FWD. Sure, it's not as much fun pounding pavement but it has advantages that are nice. For the F car, and most sports cars, RWD is the most common, w/o question but I think the Mits 3000GT had a VR4 option, correct me here.... for a 4 wheel system that supposedly works from what I'd heard.

The RWD platforms are in speculation from reports I read. The Camaro was thought by (I'm trying to recall again) Automobile magazine, as the one to be brought back again

Only one is believed. It's too bad we don't have visable heavyweights like Steve Saleen or Carroll Shelby on our side
Bill

Vaneat-91RS

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bill Speed
[B]

<<<<It was Bob Lutz who said the Firebird was dead, but recent speculation of the Camaro's return is likely why he didn't mention that F Car as well, it's just strange. He was brought in with the prospect of revitalizing GM, with an enthusiest's touch or so I read, I don't care for things he's done though>>>>>

We might be a bit premature on committing the possibility of a new f-body to the scrap heap. Most of this months car mags are saying that the platform is simply on ice, not dead. In point of fact, Holden, GM's Australian subsidiary, will begin building new cars next year on the zeta platform. It doesn't mean we'll get it, but already having one of its companies building cars on that platform makes it more likely it will still come here. I figure the reality is that it has simply been pushed back a year or two.

Vaneat-91RS

The worst thing about the GTO was the exterior design. The interior was very nice, finished well with good materials and excellent seats. It had great performance besides. A better exterior would make it a great car. There are hints the new body will be more agressive. We'll see.

Speedgraphic

WHYINTHEHELL can't GM design and produce a viable body on their own? One of the problems is that now ALL cars look alike - unless you get in the range above 45K.

This truely hurts to say it, I've been a GM man all my life, but I am probably more likely to become a rycer than to purchase any of the junk GM is producing right now. Hopefully I will be able to keep rebuilding what I currently own until somebody cleans out the management/designers of GM and brings out something affordable that is worth owning. They really are saving me a lot of money because I would be in the market to purchase something new if they made anything I would have.

Speedy

Vaneat-91RS

Well, Technically, Holden IS GM. They are completely owned and operated by the General, its not a partial ownership like they recently had with fiat, and currently have with subaru. Check out this months Motor Trend for glimpse of some of the options. All but the one they propose for an El Camino I think have possibilities.

Cadillac

All I got to say is that if they soil the legacy of my beautiful F and the ones that came before, I will be highly disappointed.

GM forever. Used cars rule.

Speedgraphic

I just saw an advetisment for a Musdang on TV. A local dealer is advertising them as starting at $18,478. I know that is an arbitrary number. By the time you add motor, bumpers, seats, steering wheel, tax, tag, and dealer prep the cost will be much more than that but I am sure it is not unrealistic to expect a price on a base model Musdang to be under 23K.

What do you suppose the idiots at GM would want to sell a base model Fbody if there were one available? My guess is that it would be more like 28K and up.

Here is your quote for the day:

"GM forever. Used cars rule."
Cadillac, a Great American!

Speedy

Cadillac

Aw shucks. hehe

Bill Speed

I caught two recent articles, one on my local Ford plant in St. Paul MN, the other online as part of AOL News, both mention the 800+ million dollar loss at GM this past quarter, I think it was...That GM was one of the biggest in the Industry, and that Toyota could supposedly buy GM now with all their success currently.
The AOL article states that GM may be nonexistant in 8 to 10 years, though even my boss, a Ford pundant, doubts that seriously
As do I. Anyway, recent reports are Bob Lutz is now moved to International chair and Rick Wagoner is now in charge of the North American GM division...recent reports of a scathing LA media article causing GM to withdraw ads from that paper

There is also a prediction that along with all the job cuts and possible plant closings (Ford's plant here is speculated as it's too costly to revamp w/o serious aid)
It's claimed Pontiac and Buick, both in serious life-support areas, are predicted to be eliminated in the future. Considering GM's killing the F car and Eldorado, along with the Bonneville and others now, it's not too hard to see a faint possibility. The article does point out that modern GM is very reliable and well built nowadays, but where is the incentive to buy. When competition heated up in the 80s, I think outwardly, design flowed nicely, but technically and quality of the cars was what suffered and need attention. In my mind, changing both of these factors and addressing large cost items like the Allante, which was GM's first attempt to get mass production, ultra cost (Money makers) as their forefront.
Their still banking too heavily on that and the new GM design staff has no real clue. Style is largely gone now

BILL

Speedgraphic

Employee Discount? on GM cars - Excluding Corvette...

Maybe they have gotten the message. Their junk is un-appealing and overpriced.

Speedy

dual_88s

Drove by the local FORD dealer couple of days ago and they have a pickup with a big banner on it out by the highway

"EMPLOYEE DISCOUNT FOR EVERYONE!!!!"

Car dealers are just plain hurting.....higher gas prices driving buyers away

Bill Speed

I had just mentioned at work, regarding an ad, the SSR truck was featured in the local ad for the 'Discount to end all Discounts' (hahaha, but also in a sad way) but- of course, the Corvette, Chev/GM's crown jewel, excluded as usual. The fact seems, Nothing GM does to cut corners will include the Corvette, unless they become completely stupid. Cadillac is one division that is still doing quite well, it seems to me. Those cars have enough style, and a whole lot of the other items needed to make them worthy...but again, expensive as well.

The Employee Discount seems to end after the holiday weekend, as noted in the above ad but it should also be noted that Ford has already killed it's crown jewel, the GT. That is a truly sad decision... Being the GM guy I am, I still felt the Ford GT was a worthy US supercar

Bill

3.8TransAM

First:

To everyone dissing the GTO, how many of you have driven one and/or spent time in one? The original wasnt anything special either unless u want to rewrite history, it was a rebadged tempest.

Second:

Sticker price is lala land when it comes to buying a car lol Without trying I knocked 3-5k off the sticker.(and was armed with enough knowledge to knock it down more)

Third:

I cannot argue the fact that GM has non descript looking cars in general and I'm including the GTO in that statement. If u get past that, they have nice options, engines and trannies. Especially the 6spd LS1/2 combos.


The Company:

First off does anyone here understand the legacy cost of 1500$ a vehicle? For every car the General builds this year, 1500 of it is gone! Poof! just like that bye bye. Goes to pay for pensions and benefits of past and current UAW workers.

Its effect?

Try basically adding 1500 to each car in very large market segments that are all ready price competitive and watch what happens? More often than not your priced higher than other cars in your segment or not considered a good enough "deal" to another choice. One lost sale and more than likley a future lost sale as the "public" doesnt deem u the best value. On it goes.

As far as rebates on every model? They are trying to move cars, increase the volume to increase the profits, but at the cost of commanding a premium on any vehicle line. Honestly, selling less at a higher price (less discounts/rebates/etc) would make them a lot more money. Think everyone pretty much knows this.

Why do they rebate the living hell out of everything? More or less, it is demand. Popular(ie well selling on their own) lines dont have rebates/offers at all or anywhere close to the extant that a poor selling line/make would.

How do u avoid this trap:

Hmmmm Interesting theories aside, it would be to build a vehicle that people want for a fair price.. Best bang for the buck car of the 90's had to have been the LS1 Camaros. Ditch all the crap you didnt need and voila, 22-24k and u had a high 12 low 13 sec cruiser with 28mpg on the highway and it looked good doing it. Funny thing about this statement is: the car still never sold that well.

Why?

It has never been answered thruthfully. I have seen many a mustang commerical yet incredibly few f-body commercial excpet the short lived Ram Air lives themed ones. Would it be around had GM advertised it ? OR would it explain the changing taste in consumer demands? Admit it, the Mustang is less performance capable and less powerful than 93+ F-body until the end of F production and yet their sale stayed more or less steady or increased. People now a days dont want to strap into a car to drive. They want to be coddled and fondled(lol).

It is a sad time we live in. We can say yeah well we have the ZO6. U dont have jack, do u have the 70k it will take to buy a car with it? I dont think so and niether do I.

Overall GM has lost its path and that is a sad thing to see indeed. Maybe one day they will understand that it us, the little common guys who dearly cling to the belief that GM will have better days ahead and that they can pry our thirdgens from cold dead hands rather than drive a Ford or an import. Not the lard bucket fat cat who can afford a blinged out Escalade or a new ZO6. They dont have loyalty they just have a check book. I've only owned GM and I plan on only owning GM. For that too happen, they have to build something that I like, and something that I desire and something that I can afford.

They are quite a few brite stars still shining at GM if u look past the doom and gloom prospects. Look at Cadillac, call it what u may, but miracle almost fits it. They went from standard fo the world to the laughing stock of luxury cars and are now regaining their rightful throne. Some smart management in Cadillac and some great new product have let them do that. If we had that same skill and style in the Chevy and Ponitac camps, maybe we wouldnt be having this conversation right now.

Anyone here care about a Chevy car currently produced other than the Vette? One astounding car in an oterwise dull and pathetic carline. Only remote hope they have is the Cobalt which is loads better than the Cavalier it replaced(SS would be fun for a beater/milege car) How can the largest division of GM not have car for the common guywith some nuts to go against the Mustang.......... Its crazy to even think but it is so right now.

HELLO GM? ITS ME JEREMY, ARE U LISTENING?

I dont know if anyone is for sure or not, we can only hope the people responsible for the good at Cadillac and the new vette are given some leeway on some other brands and hopefully insire them as both a brand and a company to do better and maybe even give the people what we want.

Finally, is the Zeta platform dead? Not by a long shot. Holden is using a version of it for its new cars coming out this year. All the proto -type based stuff on Zeta platform activit within GM camps has actually seemed to been on an increase in the last 6 mths or so since the announcement. Heres something I wonder. They delay/cancell the platform for North America. Suddenly prototype/demonstrators activity increase. Is this activity the result of a still scheduled platform but now they have time to work on performance variants? Instead of rushing the base versions into production and bringing in the performance vehicles/options at a later date? I hope I'm right and not just dreaming........................

GM ? CAN U SEE ME NOW?

later
Jeremy

To everyone who see this and agrees with it, please repost it and send it to any message board/member/organization that could have any effect.

MrDude_1

i wouldnt mind being fondled right now....

Speedgraphic

Jeremy,

At the first of your posting I thought "WTF? this guy doesn't know beans." Theare a few things there that I just can't go with EG The GTO as RE-badged Tempest thing. That is partially true. IT was a Tempest body but they wedged a decent motor with (to use your phrase) "some nuts" in it and made what was for the time a great car.

Then you go on to defend GM and the mess they have made. Sorry, but it is poor management and too dang many bean counters that got us here.

To answer your question about the GTO:
I have not driven one. I have looked very closely and honestly did not like what I saw enough to go any further. Except for those three teenie widdle letters placed in an inconspicuous place I honestly can't tell the diff between the GTO and a Bonneville. Truth be known the Grand Prix and the Bonneville actually look better to me! I really don't care what is under the hood. For the cost of a GTO I can build a really bad-assed 3rd gen - a car that I do like looking at.

After reading on it finally appeared that we are both on the same page. We are both disappointed at the lack of anything but unflavored unsalted oatmeal from GM, who still trys to sell this bland crap at Lobster and Caviar prices.

Like you I have been a GM (Specifically Chevrolet) man all my life. I have been heard to say on hundreds of occasions that " I would rather tote a Chevrolet hubcap through a henhouse barefooted than drive a furd." Like you I still cannot believe that GM doesn't have a car that appeals to and is priced for the common man...

AND like you I genuinely wish GM could get rid of a bunch of deadweight at corporate and get their stuff together. In the meantime I will just keep re-building what I've got (Three Chevy's) and keep pushing them down the road until they (or somebody) makes something I find appealing.

I wish they could get some genuine car nuts into the design process and maybe give them a cattle prod to use whenever the beancounters really start screwing things up!

Speedy

3.8TransAM

I will defend the GTO, the original was stickers too :-) The 64 wasnt anythign to write home about in any capacity other than someone had the brains to shove a bigger engine into a lighter car :-) Always good in my book. I also thought I mentioned in there about also lumping the GTO into the rather bland in the looks department(turns out I forgot or axed it). If u go take one for a drive(will be a fun exercise), ignore the outside and concentrate on the driving and not Motor Trends opinion

Just my own opinions, we will never agree 100% on anything.

I also didnt defend GM, I made lite of the fact that there are a few shining stars there even now. Maybe one of them has the DeLorean or Wangers vision? U never know, but its a nice comforting thought.

They have a serious set of issues on their hands. From the legacy costs to discounting cars, it is a situation that needs to be addressed and management living in their own little worlds need to come out and play outside of the personal fiefdoms to correct it.

Canning divisions and combining others on the sales/design/marketing can only go so far. If it all blends together ad you cant tell A from B, why would u even want one if there is something nearly identical? They need to differentiate themselves again and shake up the design trends. Give the car some lines, not smooth round pasty things. Croissants on 4 wheels lol.

I wont be defending them anytime in the near future as they roll along making bland yesterday mobiles, while posssessing some of the baddest pushrod engine family to ever hit the mass market and do nothing with it.

I know what I see. I also know I dont like it. I'm not expecting them to roll out things like TTA, Sy/Ty's again, but how knows? HEll, I'd settle for a Camaro/Firebird that looks and performs like they are meant too. In the rebirth of the ZO6 we do have a 2000's version of the ZR-1.

What I was defending are the brite spots we still have and can be visibly seen at the General. But the bigger question is there someone there who recognizes this and willing to put their money where there mouth is and prove they can do better.

U want funny? Our @$!%! government and Chinese cars. Go do some research on Chinese car industry and the wonders they steal from the rest of the world. Same loser who imported Yugo's here will be bringing in Chinese Chery QQ(believe have the name right). Guess what? The GM small car model sold in China? U can take dashboards and electronics and door panels from the QQ and they swap right in? The chineses wont do anything about blatant piracy. I bet you a million to one not one damned politician has the nuts to say we wont allow them here or not tariff the hell out of them(pricing them out) since they stole the entire friggin car design!

I bring that up because just as GM gets their head out of their collective #$@% from this mess, the Chinese car industry will be knocking down the doors and making inroads in the next 5-10 years, just as the Japanese and Koreans have before them. Remember what happened and they used to say about Japanese cars(if your old enough, i dont know). If they dont find that magic combination again, it just may well be too late for them.

Its like the phone commercials:

:: talking to gm:: Can u hear me now?

later
Jeremy

Speedgraphic

Jeremy,

You got some good thoughts. By the time I read to the end of your first post I could tell we were on the same page or pretty close.

I am downright pissed off about the state of things in the American Auto industry - and don't even get me started with our coddling of the Chineese.

Right now the only "American" car company that is coming out with unique/bold designs is Chrysler. BUT I won't purchase ANYTHING from them because they are owned by the dang Germans and I am still torqued off about the way they failed to support us in the Iraq mess. Had France and Germany stood with us in forcing inspectors back into the country we might have never had to go to war with them and about 1700 of our soldiers would still be alive. When you put it in those terms what it is pretty hard to forgive. Too bad, because I really do like some of their designs. I haven't driven anything of theirs or looked at their prices because what's the point? There's no way I would ever buy anything from them.

I do wish that GM could solve their problems, pull their heads out of their A$$3$, and begin making well built, well designed, affordable cars again...

Too bad nobody at GM in any position to do anything will ever read any of this - not that it would do any good. It is good to vent though.

Like I said before, I'll just keep rebuilding what I've got for as long as that is possible or they make something that I would want to own.

Speedy

Speedgraphic

I just read a posting on another Camaro site by Scott Settlemire. It was an attempt to rebut many of the things people are saying about GM. It was interesting reading.

Main points were:
GM has more 30+ MPG cars than any other maker
GM has won numerous competitions/surveys of quality
GM has won numerous competitions/surveys of customer Satisfaction
He discusses the number of jobs created by GM verses the competition and he discusses the amount of Tax revenue paid by GM and it's afiliates verses the competition...

If you have read the posts made by myself and others above nobody has talked about fuel economy, or quality, or jobs, or taxes. What I have been ranting about is the lack of imagination in their styling, and the outrageous prices being charged for non-descript, non-performing, cars.

One thing he said, and he did not say much about it, was that you can expect a V-8 powered, RWD, performance car from Chevy soon.


"P L E A S E _ D E A R _ G O D _ D O N ' T _ L E T
T H E M _ N A M E _ I T _ C A M A R O _ U N L E S S
T H E Y _ D O _ A _ M U C H _ B E T T E R
J O B _ T H A N _ T H E Y _ D I D _ O N _ T H E

GEE TEE OHH!"


Speedy

DanTheMan_smlk

GM totally canceled all Zeta plans and camaro plans....

why would GM make the firebird again? It was one of the reasons why gm dropped the f-body; it was competiton with the camaro. Its not good to have 2 GM dealers competeing...

you know what GM needs (what I need rather) is a "240SX". A somewhat light RWD car... Make the base model a 4 cylinder for the cheap people and "tuners" and maybe a few SS versions with a v8.....imagine, a coupe with RWD, v8, and decent weight....if it had an LS engine, it would catch up with a vette...

if only GM would do that

oh yeah, and not some gay *** solstice...it needs to start out as a hardtop regular car and not look ugly..then maybe vert

DanTheMan_smlk

no one agrees?

Speedgraphic

I agree. Sounds like the car I would be looking for. I just don't have confidence that GM could pull it off.

As much as I hate to admit it right now it looks Like Daimler-Chryser has the edge on design and they are pretty much there on performance.

Of course I would never buy anything German after their lack of support for us in Iraq. I saw a report recently where a top official of Daimler Chrysler was being investigated for his involvement with the Oil for Food scandal...

I hate it, but they are making some good looking (relative to other cars today) vehicles.

Speedy