What to do about R-12?? - Third Generation F-Body Message Boards

pennylessz28 · 06-03-2002, 12:02 AM

My A/C in the new car could use a recharge, but its an 87 and we know it uses R-12 so what can I do? Can I get it retrofited to r-134a fairly easily?

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88Bravo · 06-03-2002, 12:19 AM

Yes you can. It will cost you about $100. You need to buy a drier, the valve that goes inside one of the lines by the dryier, the oil and the coolent. If you are going to do it your self you will also need the tool to take off the ac lines. they are press fitted on there with an internal clamp. Total time is about 2 hours. You will also need rubbing alcohol. the part store near you shuold have everything you need. I did it to mine. The oil is what keeps it from having problems.

highhat · 06-03-2002, 02:55 PM

I was going to retro fit mine cause it slowly faded out after I bought the car. Turns out the previous owner had done the home retro fit, and forgot to remove the schrader valve when he put on the new fitting so I had a slow leak. I replaced the fiiting and had it vacummed and refilled. but I think it doesn't have that little dryer valve thingy! so it doesn't cool more than about 52 degrees on a 70 degree day.

oh well i'll get it right someday!

89formula#1 · 06-03-2002, 05:00 PM

why doesnl't every1 just use the r12 i don't get it

RODS92Z · 06-03-2002, 10:51 PM

Well r-12 would have cost me $300 to have it done. And I got the retrofit kit for $35 at walmart and did it my self. Common sense I guess. If you do the changeover make sure you get all the r-12 out.

Ions91Z28 · 06-04-2002, 08:25 AM

You could always use freeze 12. It's a replacement for R-12 works with old R-12 systems, and it's much much cheaper.

89formula#1 · 06-04-2002, 04:09 PM

where can i get this freeze 12 stuff

eatmydust · 06-04-2002, 05:48 PM

Yeah i'd like to know too?

eatmydust · 06-06-2002, 02:40 PM

So any info on this freeze 12 stuff?

Project86Iroc · 06-06-2002, 02:45 PM

Not many stores deal with freeze. Its propane based, so when compressed it is potentially explosive. LOTSA liability. There is a product called hotshot on the market, priced at about $15 per can, and it is supposedly safer yet requires no retrofit.
Mike

91TPI5.7 · 06-06-2002, 04:48 PM

I was gonna use the Hot Sht too. There is no retrofits, bt i stumbled across some r-12 for free. I charged the system with that, for now. Any one know hat i should look at to get the vents outof defrost. I have no control of it, and i wannaknow where to lok b4 i tear the dash apart.

ZeroBalance · 06-12-2002, 08:09 AM

I found this website for the r-12 replacment , freeze-12

http://www.freeze-12.com/

CamaroRyan2002 · 06-12-2002, 12:52 PM

I just had my cars AC system Retro fitted and it cost me a total of $94.19 with labor and parts... WELL worth it... i mean dont get me wrong... T-Tops are great... but sometimes its just to hot...

CamaroRyan2002 · 06-12-2002, 12:52 PM

I just had my AC system Retro fitted and it cost me a total of $94.19 with labor and parts... WELL worth it... i mean dont get me wrong... T-Tops are great... but sometimes its just to hot...

Danno · 06-12-2002, 04:41 PM

Freeze 12 is a hydrocarbon based product very similiar to butane. I just saw a video at a dealership about what happened when the evaporator had a leak-BOOM! I would stay away from it, especially if you smoke. Many service places still have R-12 and will give a top off for less than $100. If your system is tight and is still throwing cold air you will be better off using 12 than converting. According to many AC guys I have talked to a tight 12 system will probably last longer with a recharge than a converted 134. I found a guy who had some 12, he gave me a fill for $60 and a bottle of Kahlua.

89V6FBIRD · 06-16-2002, 02:24 AM

Quote:

FREEZE 12"! is non-flammable and contains no CFC'S.

Now is that false advertising???? I'd like to get a hold of some if it isn't. Has anyone out there tried it??

It says on the site

Quote:

FREEZE 12"! requires no system flushes or lubricant change. It works with the existing R-12 lubricant.

Sounds easy enough. I was just wonderin if anyone has converted.

Danno · 06-17-2002, 06:47 AM

My mistake, the stuff is called envirosafe. It is being pushed by the evironmentalists as an alternative refrigerant. However 89, I have been unable to find out exactly what freeze 12 actually is. I looked around on the web and it doesn't say whats in it. My understanding was that all of these direct 12 replacements were hydrocarbon based. I guess the Sierra club is more comfortable with us blowing ourselves up than polluting mother nature. One thing, you must evacuate the system to use freeze 12. Old oil can be used, but they also have different fittings. They also will not hold true to a new compressor warranty. Dude, I would find out what it is before I used it.

KenV · 06-17-2002, 05:45 PM

...was to disassemble, clean, realign and lube the vacuum switch behind the control panel. When you move the lever it turns an internal dial which ports vacuum to the doors which supply air to different vents, including the defroster. I had the same problem as you face and my "dial" was broken. I repaired it and the system was back to normal. "Normal" being good air handling but no cold air due the the R12 being gone like the wind...

HTH, let me know if the description lacked sufficient detail.

Peace,

Ken

Quote:

Originally posted by 91TPI5.7
Any one know hat i should look at to get the vents outof defrost. I have no control of it, and i wannaknow where to lok b4 i tear the dash apart.

QUICKCHICKEN · 06-17-2002, 08:11 PM

STAY AWAY FROM FREEZE 12 !!
one of the guys in our f- assn said its not all that. its 80 % 134 and 20 % something else he said. he works for trane so he knows this stuff.

stock sux · 06-24-2002, 02:44 PM

how bad is it to run a car with the ac empty, wil it hurt anything in the long run when and if i choose to refill the system. when i do refill the ac system will i need anything special since it is empty exept the retrofit kit. what is this thing about changeing the fittings and the filter, what if i dont change anything and just fill the empty system with the oil and 134-a. thanks for any help.

89formula#1 · 06-24-2002, 07:48 PM

ok guys from wut i have gathered the r-12 is what we have stock so there is no retrofit and that it is colder then if u where to retrofit 134 on your car. now i know is expensive but why not to stick with r-12?? i mean there no work to do to put it in and its colder.its not liek u have to charge it every year. so what am i missin? why is every1 convetin?

ir0cz · 06-24-2002, 08:50 PM

I need to do something about my ac...so i have 2 questions....

1. What are the advantages of swapping to r134?
2. Where can I get everything I need to retrofit?
3. In case I didn't wanna retrofit to r134, how much does it typically cost to get your R12 filled up?

bigals87z28 · 06-24-2002, 11:44 PM

att: NJ people... if u live in NJ and wana switch to r-134a...come to strauss discount auto where i work... we are having a sale on the retrofit kit the whole thing...for 29.99 only till the 29th of june!! so make it quick if u want one email me at alxv74@aol.com and i will tell u how to get there.... its in monmouth county on rt 66 in neptune....

bigals87z28 · 06-24-2002, 11:47 PM

plus u need a license for r-12 if u buy it...... and u also need a license to let out both r-12 and r134a..... lotta people are coming for that retro fit kit....and also the r-12...

TunedPort350 · 06-28-2002, 12:58 PM

Here is a link to the facts about substitute refrigerants;

http://www.imaca.org/sg-14.htm#acceptable

You will see;

"Acceptable Substitutes, Subject to Use Conditions"

HFC-134a (R-134a)
FRIGC (FR-12)
FreeZone/RB-276
Ikon-12
Freeze-12

"Unacceptable Substitutes for CFC-12 MVAC Systems"

OZ-12 (Due to flammability)
HC-12a (Due to flammability)
Duracool 12a (Due to flammability)
R-176 (Due to composition)
R-405A (Due to composition)

"Any flammable substitute for CFC-12 is unacceptable and illegal to use in the United States in a CFC-12 mobile air conditioning system."

Here is a link to information on the compositions;
http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/refrig.../refblend.html

Rage13 · 06-29-2002, 03:39 PM

if you need to refill your a/c, why not just use hot-shot? no need to refit to 134a and its cheaper then r-12.. simple, easy, and cheap

ir0cz · 06-29-2002, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rage13
if you need to refill your a/c, why not just use hot-shot? no need to refit to 134a and its cheaper then r-12.. simple, easy, and cheap

Tell us more about that stuff. Where to get it, how much it costs, why you dont need to refit...etc. Do you have a link? thanks

Rage13 · 06-29-2002, 07:19 PM

well you don't need to refit because it was made to replace r 12, without changing any parts in your a/c
i would asume you could get it at any local a/c shop, and as for how much it cost, i'm not really sure, but i know its much cheaper then r 12, when i get back from work on monday i'll post the price and any other info about it i can
i work for a shop that builds and installs a/c units in ships and yatchs

mystikkal_69 · 06-29-2002, 10:17 PM

well guys i was gonna use freeze12 but opted for something a little better. i use Autofrost(R406a). i did not change the oil. down here in texas you need some damn good cooling(both for the engine and yourself)

. well in 90+ weather i am very comfortable in my car(i have t-tops). i have a cheap remanned Autozone crap compressor and it still cools well. i think it will do better with a new A/C delco one and a better vacuum. i currently get 45* vent temps. it's ok, but many people on vegas' message board have gotten vent temps down to 34*

i will see it's true capablities at the end of this year when i tear the a/c system down again.

this is worth taking a look at...
Oil Miscibilities

Home Page
Autofrost

Cuno · 06-29-2002, 10:26 PM

Hey guys, in case you have never done it before..."retrofitting" consists of screwing on 2 adapters to your already existing fittings. Then it is as simple as hooking the can of 134A and filling your canister. That is if it is empty. If it is not empty, wait until it is empty or have a certified technician evacuate your system first. The retrofit kit costs between $30-$40 depending on where you get it.

Do not pay someone to do this procedure! It does not get any easier than this! Seriously, the hardest part of doing the switch is starting your car!

Also, R-143A is alot cheaper than R-12. It is also illegal to use R-12 if you do not have the permit for it. It is also illegal to empty your existing R-12 if you are not certified.

Again, do not let the term "retrofit" scare you off. It is a simple screw on adapter that anyone with the ability to open their hood can do.

bigals87z28 · 06-30-2002, 01:10 AM

i finaly picked up my retrofit case yesterday at work... it was on sale for 19.99 down from 49.99. it has 3 cans of r-134a with the oil in them.... u think i should get what ever i have left in it (not much) taken out? or can i just ad to what i got?

ir0cz · 07-01-2002, 08:03 PM

Where can I get the kit to retrofit to R134?

Cuno · 07-01-2002, 09:15 PM

I think that all auto parts stores carry the kit. So do stores like Wal-Mart in their automotive section.

As to wether or not your system has to be empty of R-12 before changing, I would have it emptied just to be safe. I am not sure what would happen if you were to mix the two.

bigals87z28 · 07-02-2002, 03:37 PM

u can mix the two... but when u go get the r-134a recharged down the line, who ever looks at it will not do it because they dont wana f uck with it... dude at work told me.... yea u can pick up a retro kit at any car parts store. or just have them do it... it cost more for them to do it... but atlease after they retro fit ur AC u can do it yourself.... and u go from $48 a pound to $7 a pound....i know 2-3 cans plus hose will cost u no more then $25-30 not bad

Ryan_Alswede · 07-03-2002, 01:20 AM

Guys the best replacement is R-414B, called Hot Shot, 8% better cooling then R-12 and 20% better cooling then R-134. R-414B is about the same price as R-134 and you don't have to convert to use R-414B, you just use your old R-12 gages. You use the same oil for R-12 and you can still use your sniffers for detection of leaks. I've used it in a friends 88 honda and it worked great, cooled awsome. Can't say the same about factory air compressors which are junk by the way, ALWAYS by new compressor, that rebuilt stuff is weak and junk, trust me I KNOW!

That freeze 12 crap looks dumb and doesn't seem professional, sounds like a quick fix crap.

MdFormula350 · 07-03-2002, 06:09 PM

how did u get hot shot??

laiky · 07-03-2002, 11:20 PM

http://btt.org/
check this place out, they have all the MSDS's for there stuff, not the biggest organization ( i think there somekind of christian group). Its a Hydrocarbon replacement that is actually less explosive than r-134a i don't think its an issue really. i have a case and will be installing it soon. I have a mechanic friend that had a customer bring it to him for the customers truck. It worked exceptionally well but he said the pressures don't act like regular 12 or 134a. Its cheap and easy and not as bad for the environment as the others

TexasSilhouette · 06-05-2004, 03:46 PM

Autofrost http://www.autofrost.com cools as good or better than R-12 and costs much less. 134a works better in later model systems because of the design of the condenser (serpentine versus single or double pass). Austofrost works with mineral oil (what is used with R-12). The aluminum lines in your system retain some of the refrigerant and can breakdown the oil used with the 134a http://www.autofrost.com/hotshot/index.html this problem will also make going to an r-12 substitute a pain later because if any PAG oil is in or gets in the system it will have to be flushed out.

Hot Shot cools well but does not dissolve the refrigerant oil very well and can leave your compressor without lubrication. In order for mineral oil (used in R12 systems) to return to the compressor properly, the oil and refrigerant must be miscible (dissolve) in each other. see http://www.autofrost.com/oil/index.html.

I have been in cars converted to Autofrost and they cool as good or better than they did with R-12. I have been in a few and now own a third gen converted to 134a and they/it does not cool as well as the same cars with r-12.

134a does not and can not cool as well in your third gen with an OEM condenser as will Autofrost. Here in Texas, every BTU matters and 134a in an R-12 system does not cut it for me.

I am about to start the lengthy flushing process ( a lot of freaking work) of getting the 134a (actually the lubricants) out and converting my GTA to Autofrost. I will try to get you numbers before and after to show you what I mean when I say, Autofrost will out cool 134a in an r-12 system. This example will be on a third-gen in Texas heat.

I could assume that no PAG oil was added and just convert but I did not own the car when it was converted and must assume there is some in there.

Regards,

SweetS10v8 · 06-06-2004, 08:12 AM

Hey guys, Im MACS 609 certified to buy R-12/work on all A/C systems, doest this mean I know everything about it, haha NO, but I know a little

You can not mix the two, I dont know where you conjured up that one. They take completely different lubrication oils. If you could mix them why would they make retrofit kits?

I read a lot here, and heres some of my thoughts....

Someone asked why change? Because R-134a is less harmfull to the environment, and because its cheaper(which makes me happy)

If you have an R-12 system still and it needs recharged(this I dont understand) it is legal for shops to just recharge your system and do nothing else, fully knowing that it is just going to be leaked out again. Because A/C systems do not use/leak refrigerant. Unless your system has a leak, it will always stay at the same level. So if your A/C system needs a charge, dont just have it charged, have them find the leak and fix it, or it will just leak out again I promise you!!

If i remember correctly It is illegal you anyone not 609 certified to do a retrofit, for the simple fact that you are going to knowingly release r-12 in the air. You need the proper machines to do it correctly, which would be to first recover the R-12 then to evacuate the system for at least 30 minutes. If you get caught releasing R-12 there is a big fine, and if your a business the fine is $25,000.

I would pay the $100 to have someone else do the retrofit on anyones car, this isnt a do it yourself thing.

black89ws6 · 06-09-2004, 10:31 PM

Freeze 12 is not propane based, and is not explosive. Freeze 12 is 80% R134a, and 20% R142b. No flammable components. The R142b in Freeze12 produces a blend with lower head pressures than R134a alone. Freeze 12's pressure curve is remarkable similar to R12. Freeze 12 more difficult to find, because you still have to have a license to buy it, due to the R142b component still being an HCFC.

Hotshot/R-414b/KarKool is 50% R22
R-406A/GHG/McCool is 55% R22
GHG-X4, Autofrost/Chill-It is 51% R22
GHG-HP is 65% R22
GHG-X5 is 41% R22

You do not want to use any blend with any R22 in it. The R22 component of the blend will cause the compressor shaft seal to burn out, and will saturate the desiccant in the accumulator, displacing any moisture contained in the dessicant into the refrigerant stream (can we say "corrosion")

The Hydrocarbon blends are flammable, . They're largely used in europe and australia, without any problems. There's lots of flammable things in cars anyway. Fuel, batteries, and so forth, not to mention the alternative cars that run on propane/ compressed natural gas, etc. HC refrigerants are not illegal federally, but they are illegal in about 20 states. Whether or not to use something like that as a refrigerant is a personal choice...if it were my car...probably not.

You CAN mix R12 and R134a, but you SHOULD NOT. Not only is it illegal, but it will cause excessive high side pressure. Not to mention the fact that the R134a will not carry the R12 mineral oil. This is bad for your compressor.

Anyone can legally perform an R134a retrofit, except for one thing. The R12 must be recovered by a licensed technician, so if you're not licensed, you must have a licensed person perform the recovery, and then you can proceed with the retrofit. If the system is already flat (0psi), it does not have to be recovered.

The statement that R134a does not cool as well as R12 is not accurate. It is more of a stereotype. Some systems do not cool as well, some cool better, but most depend on the quality of job done. If you buy the kit, and just change fittings and dump it in, then no, it will not cool as well. If you take the time to retrofit right, (i.e. doing more than the bare minimum) the system will cool better.

Any questions?

Rage13 · 06-13-2004, 01:26 AM

You do not want to use any blend with any R22 in it. The R22 component of the blend will cause the compressor shaft seal to burn out, and will saturate the desiccant in the accumulator, displacing any moisture contained in the dessicant into the refrigerant stream (can we say "corrosion")

How does it cause the seal to burn out? R22 is used in almost every system we have built for the last 20 years without problem.

The Hydrocarbon blends show some real promise. They're largely used in europe and australia, without any problems.

I can't speak for australia, but every A/C or refrigeration system I've seen come from europe has been pure crap...

You CAN mix R12 and R134a, but you SHOULD NOT. Not only is it illegal, but it will cause excessive high side pressure. Not to mention the fact that the R134a will not carry the R12 mineral oil. This is bad for your compressor.

No system will ever run right if you try to mix R12 and R134a together. But if the system is filled with ester oil you can run R134a or R12 without problem.

The statement that R134a does not cool as well as R12 is not accurate. It is more of a stereotype. Some systems do not cool as well, some cool better, but most depend on the quality of job done. If you buy the kit, and just change fittings and dump it in, then no, it will not cool as well. If you take the time to retrofit right, (i.e. doing more than the bare minimum) the system will cool better.

R12 will cool better then R134a, its just not so easy to get in the US anymore.

black89ws6 · 06-13-2004, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rage13

How does it cause the seal to burn out? R22 is used in almost every system we have built for the last 20 years without problem.

If you've been using R22 in systems for the last 20 years (substantially predating the r12 phaseout), can I assume your speaking of hermetically sealed systems, instead of mvac open drive compressors? The problem comes from using R22 in systems not designed for it. Barrier hoses must be installed, and the dessicant must be replaced with a unit containing XH9.

From http://www.macsw.org/news/WildWest.html :
"Blend refrigerants that contain R22 will experience hose and seal deterioration problems. This problem is not confined to only the vehicle A/C system. Problems with hoses and seals in recovery/recycling equipment will also occur."

I was wrong about the shaft seal. Compressors newer than 1997 have shaft seals that are compatible with R22.

Quote:

Originally posted by Rage13

I can't speak for australia, but every A/C or refrigeration system I've seen come from europe has been pure crap...

I don't have any first hand experience with any european or austrailian crap either. I was just making the point that hc refrigerants are being safely used somewhere, even if it's not commonplace here in the us.

FWIW, i tried a hydrocarbon blend yesterday...I was substantially disappointed with it's performance.

Quote:

Originally posted by Rage13

No system will ever run right if you try to mix R12 and R134a together. But if the system is filled with ester oil you can run R134a or R12 without problem.

I agree with you. If you read what I wrote, you will see that I advocated NOT mixing them.

Quote:

Originally posted by Rage13

R12 will cool better then R134a, its just not so easy to get in the US anymore.

That depends on the system, and the conditions. Read the test results in the test at http://www.ackits.com/forum/messagev...&threadid=9171 . Read the results of the Tube & Fin condenser test, as that is representative of an R12 system (our cars, and most all R12 mobile systems have Tube & Fin condensers). They tested under 12 different combinations of interior and exterior temperature conditions.

R134a was colder than R12 in 7 of the tests
R12 was colder than R134a in 3 of the tests
They tied, with the same temperature, in 2 of the tests.

The answer: Does R12 cool better than R134a?? YES!!
Does R134a cool better than R12?? YES!!

The real, accurate answer, is it depends on the conditions. So many factors. Temperature, condition of system, quality of retrofit job done, etc.

To just give a blanket answer that one is better than the other is like saying TPI is faster than TBI. The real answer is in the details...what if the TBI has a shot of NOS?

The irony of this, is as much as I believe R134a can work as well as R12 if you put some elbow grease into the retrofit, I have several cans of R12 saved away in my garage just incase my firebird ever needs it. I like the point you made about the R12 being compatible with ester oil...lotsa folks don't realize that. If I ever have an ac problem on my firebird, I'm gonnna flush it and put in ester when I service whatever goes out. Then, I can charge it with R134a, long enough to make sure there are no leaks. After I'm sure it doesn't leak, I can change it back to R12, without having to mess with an oil changeout.

edit: link went bad. new link at http://www.autoacforum.com/messagevi...&threadid=9171