MotorMouth

In NC you can get the licenses if you do auto A/C or HVAC to buy and sell r-12. The problem is no new supplies of r-12 are being made anymore CFC-12 production ended on December 31, 1995.

CFC-12 Production Ban

Here is something that caught my eye! It is good practice to request that leaky air conditioners be repaired, rather that just "topped off" with additional
refrigerant. Such repairs prolong system life, reduce emissions and conserve existing supplies of CFC-12. Leak repair
is not required under federal law, but it is required in some areas (for example, Florida, Wisconsin, parts of southern
California, Austin, Texas, and Albuquerque, New Mexico and possible others).

MotorMouth

In NC you can get the licenses if you do auto A/C or HVAC to buy and sell r-12. The problem is no new supplies of r-12 are being made anymore CFC-12 production ended on December 31, 1995.

I have never seen any problems with r-134a in my car. It's was retrofitted 7 or 8 years ago. In NC we get 100+ days with 90%+ humidity my car is always cold. I believe that it's the same mind set that believes the whole emissions crap where everyone wants to take it off because it gives them a lot more power. Because someone told them it doesn't feel cool so in there head it doesn't feel cool to them. I know a ton of people like that. Some that still believe seatbeats will kill them and pay the tickets left and right.


CFC-12 Production Ban

Here is something that caught my eye! It is good practice to request that leaky air conditioners be repaired, rather that just "topped off" with additional
refrigerant. Such repairs prolong system life, reduce emissions and conserve existing supplies of CFC-12. Leak repair
is not required under federal law, but it is required in some areas (for example, Florida, Wisconsin, parts of southern
California, Austin, Texas, and Albuquerque, New Mexico and possible others)

P.S. can you delete the above post I was editing the post and it didn't.

avst03

I've been happy with my AC since I switched from R12 to R134A in my 83 GMC G3500.

I flushed the system, replaced the orifice tube with a FORD one to improve performance with R134A, changed the accumulator drier, installed the retrofit high and low ports, changed all the O-rings to compatible ones(green), its running PAG oil instead of mineral oil.

I did this 8 years ago still running great with the old A6.

I seem to remember someone on aircondition.c** saying that the mineral oil that got into the hoses helped stop them leaking with R134A but a new R12 hose would leak because it hadn't been exposed to the mineral oil. So if you change hoses they need to be made with R134A in mind.

My brother in-law worked for a company selling shop equipment so I used a AC charging unit it to pull vacuum and recharge the system by weight.

Mike…

tkcaraudio

I work in a garage and we have like 10 20 pound cylinders of R-12 and they are charging almost $400 to do a system of R12

If you use 134 they charge your system for 100 and give you a recharge after like 2 months in the summer if it gets warmer...

I would go to 134

at least in the state of ohio R12 is not allowed to be ordered or sold after this sumemr

Reid Fleming

iTrader: (2)

I'd argue that in the south or out west (desert), that the conversion would be the a waste of money. It's up north and in the pacific northwest that the inefficiency of R-134a is hidden from the consumer. When it's 80° and 35% humidity outside, it's easy to get by with R-134a.

Ever notice that the people who say that R-134a cools great live in northern states and tend to own non black paint cars with cloth seats?

This was thought to be a problem from 1995-2000'ish. The immediate problem came up when people in those years needed A/C work. But it's been 15 years now. A lot of those 15+ year old cars are either junked or too cheap to bother fixing the A/C if you live in a mild climate. In today's world there is so little demand for R-12 that the production ban is mostly a moot issue. R-12 is still out there if you want it. Sure it's a bit more expensive. But only the person who
a) Owns an old car
and
b) Lives in the heat
will want to bother buying it.

Reid Fleming

iTrader: (2)

This is why I like to use a simple digital temperature probe in the duct work. The outside climate can fool you. When it's overcast, 75° and 80% humidity, the air coming out the ducts won't feel that cold to you, even though it's blowing 30° or colder air at you.

But when it's 95°, sunny, and ultra muggy. The air will feel like an iceberg coming at you. You really notice it when you get home and shut the car off. Open up the door and the wave of heat smacks you like a wall.

DJP87Z28

Anyone who keeps saying and using R12 are in DENIAL. You will change over if you plan on keeping your car, for one reason...R12 is history. It is NOT available to 99 44/100% of the people no what the other .56% say.

Reid Fleming

iTrader: (2)

I love the link that is directly below your post.

Heck, I could say that you can't buy 3rd gens anymore since they stopped making them in 1992. Better to buy a 5th gen now.....But I won't. I think you're just jealous that everybody else has a colder comfier car than a black car in Florida with R-134a is. As such you'd rather we all suffer instead of just you.

The EPA 609 test isn't rocket science. It's a $20 open book exam that anybody should be able to pass after a couple hours of studying. Most of us will spend easily as much time trying to diagnose a car problem when one arises. While it's true that R-12 does cost more to buy than R-134a, in the grand scheme of things it has a low cost for a high amount of enjoyment over a long period of time. Considering it costs about as much as a coolant flush, I don't think it's that bad.

MotorMouth

I live in a very humid and hot climate during the summer. It gets 100+ and 90% humidity a lot during the summer I've never had any issues with mine not cooling. I wish I could stop it from fogging up my windows all the time!

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

And I bet my Black Quad Cab Ram cools down quicker and gets colder air at the vents and in the interior than your car does in the same climate.

R134a SUCKS... PERIOD...You wouldn't believe how many in-adequate ac complaints we get on properly functioning systems at the Nissan dealership I work for.

DANNY25SS

Something else that I notice is that the compressor doesn't cycle on and off as it did before. What could be the issue for this?

BigBadGTA

I was repeat customer/friend to a local privately owned garage before I moved about a year ago. I told them I would be moving to las vegas and my A/C didnt blow cold. They told me to bring it in and they would fill it up with R-12. They charged me $99 and put i think over 2 pounds of the stuff in. I have been in Las Vegas for a year, and my A/C still blows really cold when its 110 outside. keep in mind that my GTA is black, and has a leather interior! I am not retrofitting my system, I am sure I can find someone else to throw in some R-12 if and when the time comes.

Arctic White 91 RS

My 91 RS hasn't had working AC since 2001, finally this summer decided to see if it could be fixed. Needed a new liquad return line from GM Classic parts for $45, 2 can's of R134a $16, Napa conversion kit $25, new orifice $4. Had compressor pulled & mineral oil drained, replaced with PAG oil.

AC works well enough for the car to be comfortable with the outside temp up to 95 degrees. When the outside temp gets between 93-95 degrees the AC can just keep up. The car hasn't been in temps warmer than that yet. The AC is fine for the Southeast & MidWest. I don't think my 134a AC will do very well if the temp hits 100 but it will be better than nothing.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Sitting in a Dallas, Texas area traffic jam, crawling along at 5-10 mph in 105*F heat, you would be sweating even with the a/c on in the car.

91camarosRS

iTrader: (5)

ok sorry for my ignorance but i have a question... im going to do a lt1 swap in my car... so do i use the new or old compresser? what if i take a forth gen condenser? i dont know all the parts to an ac system yet. or mix and match them? what will give me the best result? and ill do whatever it takes to have the coldest possible within reason. ill run 134 if need be. but can i take all the stuff off of a 4th gen and put it on the third? has anyone done this?

DANNY25SS

I live in Vegas as well black formula T-top ect and no tinted windows (yet ) and just did the conversion and it blows a cool 40* at the middle vent and slowly gets cooler as I go along... However at a long stop light or a drive through that takes 5+ min it warms up to 50ish from the lack of air flow in the condenser but as soon as i get moving it cools right back... I have a pusher fan on order to fix this problem...

I am still trying to figure why the compressor does not cycle on and off like it did before any ideas anyone?........

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Because R134a SUCKS....Its not as efficient as R12.

StevenB L98/LS1

To be honest i never did much info on r-12, other than i know we can only get r134.

My question is... is r-12 colder than r134? Because i live in florida with a black TA and charcoal cloth interior. My ac feels like it just keep ups inside the car unless you drive it for a very long time when the cab inside start really cool down inside. Im just curious is r-12 colder?

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

In the SAME system...R12 will be more effecient in moving heat....Up to the point the evaporator starts becoming the weak link...R12 WILL BE COLDER.

With Envirosafe (AKA Propane), my dual unit system in the van would cycle continuously at idle in 100+F heat.

Reid Fleming

iTrader: (2)

Think of the below numbers as performance (lower number = better)

R-134a boils at -15°F
R-12 boils at -21°.
Propane boils at -44°.

Fast355 isn't running straight propane. But with a 60% mixture of propane and 40% isobutane, he will have a boiling point of somewhere around -30.

So in an automobile A/C system, if it cycles off at 25 psi with R-12. You'd need to run it down to say 20 psi with R-134a to get the same cold temperature. But....and this is the but, R-134a runs higher pressure on the hot side than R-12 does. So it's harder for R-134a to get cold on the cold side. And even if it could get cold on the cold side, it would have to run to a lower psi (colder) to be of equal performance.

OK, the above was a giant mumbling of words. Take a heat pump or central air conditioner on a house. If you were to wrap the outside condenser with a giant sleeping bag, the condenser would be insanely hot (instead of shedding the heat to the air). The high side psi would be higher as a result of this. Because of this, the low side (cold inside air) would have terrible performance.

So R-134a will send more heat to the outside while giving you less cold air. R-12 will send a normal amount of heat to the outside while giving you cold air. Propane based A/C will put out less heat to the outside (due to high efficiencies) while giving you icebergs inside your car.....The limiting factor of any air conditioning system is how well it can send the heat to the exterior. Doesn't matter if it's a car, a house, or a fridge. In Florida, a house won't cool as well in August as it will in March simply because of the high heat and humidity outside limiting the amount of heat that can be sent to the outside air. With R-134a in Florida, your condenser is essentially maxed out all the time. It can't get any cooler inside the car because to do so would require sending more heat to the exterior. (Remember, we're not creating cold air. We're simply removing heat from the air and sending it outside. The left over air is cold)

R-134a at 20 psi is similar to R-12 at 25 psi is similar to propane based systems at 30 psi. (numbers approximated for example). So a propane system is just idling along at the point an R-134a system is completely maxed out on a cool day. R-12 is about half way between.

Reid Fleming

iTrader: (2)

To use an extreme example, water could be used for air conditioning. The trouble is that water boils at 212°F. So you'd need a compressor that's probably bigger than your car in order to get the temperatures down to normal air conditioned duct temps. You'd have to send mammoth amounts of heat out the condenser to get good performance. Water is an extremely inefficient material for air conditioning.

58mark

iTrader: (3)

making it through 102 degree days here in texas with freeze 12. I wish my blower motor put out more air, but what is there is cold

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

From what I have understood about Y we have 134a instead of the better R12 is because Duponts pantent on R12 was about to run out.
They didnt want anyone else making money by copying the R12 and selling it cheaper..soo now we have (as they called it then) Ozone friendly 134A lol
Ture or not I don't know its what a bunch of HVAC guys told me back in the day..

MotorMouth

Well they are complete fools. Everything that contains CFC in the USA has been banned. We used CFC in just about everything aerosol cans to liquid refrigerant and a lubricant.

RyanEricW

LoL @ the people who say you cannot buy R12 without a special license that isn't made anymore.

The EPA609 license allows for use/purchase and distribution of R12/R134a.

Page 2, Middle Section.
http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/609/subsumm.html (Click on final rule)
Final Rule: http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-1997...f/97-33738.pdf


At first, anyone could buy r-12 refrigerant without a license in anything greater than or equal to 20lbs.
They modified it, so now any size container needs to have a license to purchase.

Read the citations, please correct any misguided information you may have heard and get the license, it is a lifetime license!