my hemi

Anyone here running the Holley EFI system how do you like it? how does it work?

Andy Fanshawe

iTrader: (1)

Hi.
I am in the UK and have a 91 camaro with a 1977 350 in it with tpi intake retro fitted. I know its not holley but I stripped all the wiring out and old ecu and installed a fueltech ecu (ft500). Very simple to wire up if you have any experience with wiring. Car runs beautifully.

I am now installing a holley efi on a 427 ci cobra. The differences are quite interesting. Holley provide a well marked harness with sub harnesses you can fit that are just plug and play depending which components you want to add. Wiring is straightforward. the supposedly self learning ones are, in my opinion, not very effective at all. The importance of a rolling road session and a good tuner can't be over emphasised. Self learning or not.

The advantage to me of all the aftermarket efi systems is that all wiring and the old ecu can be removed and be replaced by new wiring and new technology ecu's.

Mine runs beautifully....BUT... the major disadvantage is cost (certainly compared to an old fashioned carb/dizzy setup. I spent about $4000 in the end, but I replaced most old tpi components and went msd. The tuning session cost me about $400 but was amazing. I did all my own installation, wiring etc, and took weeks because I wanted a top class job minimising any potential breakdowns caused by mis routed wires.

My advice? Go for it. Both tech supports were good, but sometimes were hit and miss depending on who you talked to (like most helplines!).

Hope this helps.
Andy.

my hemi

Thanks for the info the car is at the shop now getting this done...cant wait to ge it back see how it performs and drives.

Andy Fanshawe

iTrader: (1)

Fantastic! Get it on a rolling road and be there to watch! Get loads of photos and videos. Scary but exciting at the same time! Not very often you get to stand at the side of your car with it doing full pulls!! The noise is worth all the money!
I have the fueltech digital touch screen that makes driving it seem like a spaceship! If you can afford it, get the optional digital display. Just plugs in.
As much as I dont like to say it in the UK, but my first impression was HELL YEAH!!
Andy.

my hemi

Yes its going to have the LCD display screen that should be cool to see..

Longer02

Have several friends running it in Turbo LS setups. I really like the system for the little time I have messed with it. I will be doing the Terminator X in my car if I go through with the LS swap. I personally ran MS3 Pro in my turbo 4th gen Camaro and while I really liked it, the Holley software is a lot more user friendly and cleaner. You will love it.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Yeah i made the switch this year. I like the system. Very easy to use especially if you have any background in basic tuning. But its pretty easy even if you dont i guess, theres lots of documentation on how to use it

runs good. Easy to wire and set up. Just about everyone i know runs holley now in their street/race cars

my hemi

The shop doing my car said he thought about it he is going to go Holley HP instead but i think its kinda similar

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Thats what i have and recommend, the HP

my hemi

You like it ? i heard it doesnt come with an LCD screen tho...have to use a laptop...

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Yeah i like tuning with the laptop. Once its tuned you dont need to touch it. But you can get a holley dash for it. I just used stock gauges since i like being more original oem based

my hemi

Yes i was also told that...its staying with all factory gauges i lookied it up i can buy a 3.5 inch screen for like 250 might do that down the road, other then that i have a laptop ready for it..

GeneralDisorder

iTrader: (1)

The problem with the Holley stuff has been that every few years Holley gets sold off or restructured and the product support for previous generations of their fuel injection systems seems to go in the dumpster. Also it's not all that flexible from a tuner's perspective. I'm running a LINK ECU with a plug and play adapter harness on my 86 and it works with the factory distributor, and zero wiring changes other than adding a MAP sensor using the MAF signal wiring. The LINK stuff is really slick because it can be setup to run anything - my ECU could run a 4 cylinder with a distributor from the 80's or an LS with drive by wire. I have put LINK ECU's on a ton of different vehicles - from 4 cylinder turbocharged rock crawlers to 1000 HP drift cars with nitrous......

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Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Holley is totally programmable to for various ignition systems, cylinder counts and firing orders. They do make tpi and ls based wiring harnesses that only need a few wiring completions to make it ready to go. Its pretty simple actually, they did a really good job with it. This isnt like the commander 950 in the past

GeneralDisorder

iTrader: (1)

It does seem they have made some significant improvements. I don't see that they offer the ability to plug into the stock harness though. At least in my case I didn't really want to swap the harness and wanted a plug-in solution for the TPI/TBI cars. So we made our own. Obviously the F body cars with factory TPI/TBI harnesses are in the minority of the cars Holley is targeting with their products so a plug-in solution is just too niche for them to bother.

Also the LINK stuff is a whole different universe for configuration options. You would have to try one to understand. Some people are actually put-off by the perceived complexity of it because it's so universal that you can almost map any input/output, etc to any pin on the unit. The only hard coded wiring is the power/ground/5v stuff. Everything else is software configurable and you aren't limited to the built-in sensor mapping options - you can setup custom sensors, and build tables with any row/column layout you want. It's almost like an industrial PLC with a graphical programming language. Not quite but kinda similar.

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Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Yeah they have full engine harnesses available but you still need to hook up power, fuel pump wire to factory pump wire at the c100, starter wires, and fuse box power wires from c100 to starter. Among other things, handful of wires depending on the year. That aint bad at all to do but does require you to cut off your c100 side connector off stock harness to work. Atleast thats how I do things and makes the easiest cleanest conversion.

Holley also has programmable inputs and outputs. The dominator having much more available than HP

you can configure them to do a variety of things like log any type of sensor, or control things like additional fuel pumps, boost control, or solenoids, pulse width modulation etc. so its also very advanced and has alot of flexibility

my hemi

The shop doing the install thinks the HP will do well for out combo that we have..I truly know nothing about tuning lol so I'll have to learn it.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

My one big gripe with Holley HP is the idle strategy. It sucks. It doesn't use a speed sensor so the ramp down to idle is based on a timer clock. The clock is constantly timing out during normal driving so the ramp down often is not well controlled when you need it to be.

It's a noticeable problem with the size of cam that I have. Seems like I'm tweaking idle air control settings at least twice a year due to weather changes. I have a spring and fall setting, and a heat of the summer setting.

my hemi

this will really only be driven in spring and summer hope that helps it..

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

hmm i’ll have to look at that, i have not noticed an issue yet on my bbc but cam isnt super huge either but aint super small. Not sure how mine is configured i’ll have to look

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Orr, it's the settings for IAC hold decay time, and rpm to enter IAC ramp down.

Manual transmission (because of flywheel inertia) needs higher rpm threshold to enter IAC ramp down. I think mine starts at 2500 rpm or something like that, so sometimes IAC is at 0% while I'm driving.

Ive had to dial in a lot of base air flow thru throttle body, and rely less on IAC and more on ignition timing. Sometimes it takes a few seconds for engine to settle down to idle, but it sure beats stalling.

GeneralDisorder

iTrader: (1)

Is the Holley trying to do closed loop idle? Do you not have an option to do open loop idle control?

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Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

theres settings to control when closed loop and learn modes are enabled. I believe theres settings based on coolant temp, tps, and rpm.

also can command how much wb afr control you have at idle rpms and map values. Can say +-1% change or even 0 change in closed loop at idle rpm range and map

GeneralDisorder

iTrader: (1)

I wasn't really referring to closed loop AFR. I was talking about closed loop IAC stepper/duty cycle control using a target RPM table, etc. This type of "closed loop" uses the RPM as the feedback for the proportional and derivative gains that control the IAC steps or duty cycle. Can also control timing to help smooth out the idle. Subtract timing if the idle is high, add it when low, etc.

That's usually overly complicated though. Can't you just specify an IAC step value based on CTS and leave it at that? With the LINK you can just turn all that stuff off (it has extremely detailed closed loop idle control stuff also) and specify a startup IAC step value and then just run a simple IAC steps/duty vs. CTS. Usually works well for things like big cams that want to fight with the closed loop idle motor controls.

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Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Oh lol yeah i dont recall off hand id have to look
https://forums.holley.com/showthread...neral-IAC-Info

theres alot of discussion on iac stuff. Theres ramp down times and iac hold positions you can control as well as PID values in the advanced strategies. Slow medium and fast idle control but they say slow usually gives best. I have not played with this much, i have an auto and have not had much idle troubles

GeneralDisorder

iTrader: (1)

All my tuner friends hate that the Holley and AEM stuff does that - instead of giving you things like the proportional and derivative gain controls you get a selection of "slow", "medium", or "fast" which doesn't really fully describe what's happening internally. Internally the ECU *IS* a PID controller (proportional–integral–derivative controller), you just don't have access to the real internal settings when they hide it behind a simplified interface like that. Proportional gain is simply how large of a step toward the target is taken, and Derivative gain is how rapidly those steps are applied. It's not that complicated of a concept but classically AEM and Holley have hidden much of this type of control behind a user interface. I don't know about the latest generation of the Holley products but those are the complaints that drove many tuners away from their products in the past. Trying to target the wanna-be hot rodder in his garage that's going to bolt it on and then just drive it around on it's "self tuning" features without ever having a real dyno tune done by a professional. I understand their problem - trying to satisfy the pro that wants control over everything, as well as Cletus that wants to drop it on his swamp buggy and tune it with a 486 Windows 95 laptop with an 11" screen that only works if you keep it plugged into the wall.....

GD

GeneralDisorder

iTrader: (1)

Looking over that link above - it does look like they have much better access to the PID properties than they used to.

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thatsupnow

I had the HP setup. Worked pretty good I got no complaints. But I ended up selling the motor/trans and Holley setup. Got a forged iron 370 LS with a built 4l80e and Ford 9 inch. Gonna step up to the Dominator like a should've done in the beginning. Transmission control is where it's at

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

You've seriously never used Holley HP EFI??? Overall it's freakin' sweet. Two drawbacks I have found:

1. return to idle strategy
2. no option to tune with Lambda

But it's way more than just an engine tuning device. Want to turn on a coffee pot when you're cruising on the freeway? No problem, it can do that.

thatsupnow

Lol! as long as you've got an input/output available. HP is pretty slim

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Just curious, what do you need that for? The afr table is kinda same thing as long as you reference your target lambda to gas scale stoich afr to work the calculations back. I run e85 but leave it in gas scale.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

I've never used Lambda, but it seems that people that run flex fuel like it so that they don't need to remap the AFR tables. It can also be quicker to tune since you can directly calculate in your head the amount of fuel change needed to hit a particular Lambda value.

The Holley O2 sensors are actually operating in Lambda, they just convert it to AFR on-screen. It's just a matter of whether or not they want to offer that feature to the user.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Right, all o2 use lambda and convert to afr via a preprogrammed equation. As long as you know stoich. 1 lambda is always stoich afr regardless of fuel.

I’m gonna mess with e85 and pump gas. So far i had a good e85 tune and decided to try pump gas. Theres a big difference in fueling thats for sure. I like you can allow closed loop corrections to well over 100% of fuel value. I think it may go to 300% i dont know. But pump gas needs like a 40-50% correction. Im not sure i like that but im not adding flex fuel sensor.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

I haven't tried it, but I suspect if you change the fuel type in the tune then it might ask you if you want to update the fuel tables. I know it does if you change the target AFR table. Anyway, you could get it in the ballpark just by changing values in the target AFR table and letting it auto-calculate changes to fuel tables.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

It does ask that. And i dont wanna change fuel type. I want my base map to remain same and allow correction to pump gas. I think it will work but i only really will run pump gas in a pinch or in the fall winter when summer e runs out and i go to store the car i will pickle on pump gas

mines all based on fuel type as gas and working in gas scale afr

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

I guess you could make two different advanced tables with fuel & AFR offsets that you toggle on/off when you want.

GeneralDisorder

iTrader: (1)

Yes the LINK architecture is much the same. You can define any input/output you want and hook it to a table with programmable axis, or a sensor value, etc. They even have a rudimentary programming language for IF/THEN/ELSE statements, logic operators, etc. That's how my LINK runs the factory small cap distributor module - it turns on a relay with one of it's outputs that then supplies 5v to the module to turn on external timing control. It simply kicks on the relay once the engine achieves 400 RPM. The relay is just built into my plug and play harness.

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Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Link sounds nice i just never heard of it and dont know anyone using it

GeneralDisorder

iTrader: (1)

A lot of the Formula Drift guy's are running LINK on their LS engines. We had one in here on the DynoJet with 3 stage NOS that put down 775 RWHP.

LINK is well known in the Nissan world and since all the 240 guys are throwing LS's in their drift cars they usually end up running them on some flavor of a LINK ECU.

But yes - it seems relatively unknown in the old school SBC/BBC world. We are working on changing that. Perhaps the plug-and-play harnesses I'm developing will help some people out. The LINK Storm I'm running in my trans am is $1295 - same basic price as the Holley HP. It has 8 Digital Inputs, 8 Analog inputs, and 8 Auxiliary outputs. Additionally any of the unused injection drivers (8) and ignition drivers (8) can be used as outputs. Since I'm only using 2 injector drivers, and 1 ignition drive, I have an insane 21 additional outputs at my disposal. Many other features not offered by the Holley HP:

https://www.linkecu.com/products/wirein-ecus/g4-storm/

Some of their smaller ECU's are really good for stuff like sand rails and rock crawlers, etc. They have the Monsoon which is totally water tight and only slightly larger than a deck of cards. Just tuned a Toyota 2RZ turbo in a rock crawler today with a Monsoon. ECU and harness were only about $850:



And yes. That's a Syclone in the background.

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Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Cool stuff. Most of us are on holley now. Our import guys on Motec and some stock ecu stuff around both import and domestic.

GeneralDisorder

iTrader: (1)

Motec is pretty impressive stuff, but the COST is obscene IMO. LINK has their M800 competitive product (G4+ Thunder) priced less than half of the Motec and has pretty much identical specs. The new ThunderX version is coming out shortly and features some major upgrades. Logging at 1000Hz!

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