IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

My engine arrived this afternoon!







Over the past few years (as some of you know) I have been building up my 1987 IROC-Z camaro to be a street/strip/autoX/show car. I have upgraded the fuel system, installed a very beefed up 700R4 trans, 9" converter, a Moser 12 bolt rear, strong driveshaft, suspension components, bigger brakes, wheels, a wet nitrous system on the TPI setup, battery relocation, etc. Here is a link to the multi-year build up of the rest of the car itself: https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tech...rior-next.html . lots of photos, info, and discussion.


It is finally time to bring in the engine, by which this new thread will be about....getting it installed, wired, plumbed, and setup. I have a pretty "ok" idea of what to do, but I also already have some questions and will need advice as I take on this task over the next few weeks. ANY/ALL advice (good or bad) is much appreciated. thanks


So the engine arrived today. It was built by Nyes Racing Engines out in Indiana.
Here are the basics, but I have attached a photo of the build sheet below:
- Dart SHP block
- 406 cubic inches
- Callies Compstar Crank and Rods
- Mahle pistons (rings are gapped for a 200-250 shot of nitrous)
- Dart Pro1 215 Cylinder Heads
- Comp Cams camshaft 245 intake/245 exhaust at .50, .4000 lift intake and exhaust, and 110 LSA (cam card below)
- Crane roller rockers
- Edelbrock Victor Jr manifold
- Holley Sniper EFI
- SFI 168 tooth flexplate
- MSD Pro billet distributor



Dyno Tested on February 2, 2020 (dyno printout attached)

Max HP was 531.6 @ 6,000 rpm
Max Torque was 513.0 @ 4,800 rpm


I am very happy with how it all went. I never wanted a super high horsepower high revving drag engine that was non-streetable. I always wanted a "hot-street" motor capable of doing "it all" well. street, strip, autoX, show, long cruises, etc


I plan on installing the engine in the car this saturday, and it will bolt to the new Prothane Polurethane engine mounts I installed. Today, I already mounted some of the front accessories (power steering pump, water pump, some pulleys) but I am still waiting on a mid-mount bracket set for the powermaster alternator. I also mounted the starter and did my best to check its alignment; see photo)

I have a champion 2 row (1" tubes) aluminum radiator on the way and will buy new hoses. A 160 degree thermostat was recommended by the engine builder, and I still need to buy a water neck. I will be re-using my OEM fans, but building my own relays to power them. The holley sniper unit will control fan 1 and 2 on/off. I will use evans waterless coolant also, and still have to find an expansion tank/overflow tank I can put neatly in the newly repainted engine bay.
- It took me a little while to understand the proper way to setup the fan relay diagram, but thanks to people on this board I think I have it worked out.





My biggest dilemma comes from some of the wiring that lies ahead.... I thought I had some of it figured out, but I seem to be getting into another confusing stage regarding the ignition wiring and some of the other topics below.....


Since I have removed ALL of the oem wiring that went to the TPI's ECM and its functions, I was left with wiring at the C100 connector, the C207, and the C221 along with the fuse panel, and in-car wiring. Things definitely cleaned up nicely under the hood and I wanted to do my best to keep it that way.

--I plan to use the Pink/black stripe wire coming from the fuse panels 10 amp ENGINE CNL port to trigger the sniper's ecm. (what does "CNL" mean anyways??) this pink/black wire used to go through port F of the C207 connector under the passenger dashboard but I removed it from the connector and plan on using it to connect to the new pink switched ignition +12v wire that leads to the sniper via it's built in connector? does this seem correct???

I thought that was the end of my ignition wiring questions, but sadly I realized when I did more reading that even though I own a MSD Digital 6 Cd ignition control box (currently removed and planned on selling it), I do NOT want to use it because on page 8&9 of the holley sniper quick start guide it states that "CD box ignition is intended for users that have an aftermarket ignition system but do not want the ECU to control timing". If I am reading that correctly, it means that the MSD digital 6 box would control timing, and would inhibit/prohibit the holley sniper from self-learning and self-tuning. ...
....thats not what I want. I want teh sniper to do the timing, tuning, everything. no external msd box is desired.
-- therefore, my only other option is for me to go buy a MSD remote mounted ignition coil (see page 8 of holley manual https://documents.holley.com/199r11193.pdf). Since I do not have a large cap HEI .... I have a MSD pro-billet distributor #85551, I will NEED to have a remote ignition coil right??? something like: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/msd-8202 or something different that works seamlessly with the MSD dizzy AND the holley sniper.. any suggestions? should I call holley tech on the phone and sort this out, or do you guys have any advice?

--after that dilemma, I then realized the issue might be even more complicated, since included with my Holley Sniper wiring harnesses, I located the "Holley Sniper EFI coil driver module".. which I had never heard of before today. this: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sne-556-150 . so now I am getting more confused about what I need to get the ignition system proper, and next, how to wire it. I will be searching online and on the holley forums, maybe even a phone call.. but if anyone can point me in the right direction, that would be fantastic. I am confused, very much so.


the second (but probably not the last) issue I would like to resolve, is what the best method for fuel pump wiring would be. I currently already have the Racetronix FL98 wiring/relay kit in the car https://www.racetronix.biz/product.asp?ic=fpwh-005 and it is plugged into the oem bulkhead connector at the trunk area. So my plan was to keep this in place.... however the Holley sniper unit came with a pre-wired fuel pump relay and wiring!! so now I would have two relays for one 340 lph racetronix fuel pump. Initially myself and Polarbear decided that I should keep the racetronix relay and configuration, that would mean cutting up the brand new holley sniper wiring a bit, so before I do this, I wanted to see if anyone else had some thoughts or ideas?
- my gameplan would be, keep the racetronix wirign harness and relay in its entirety. I would then leave the OEM ground wire from the bulkhead to its chassis ground at the body under the rear seat. I would LEAVE the pink wire running along the drivers side rocker, since it goes to the dashboard fuel gauge, and I want that. I would keep the OEM tan wire along the rocker, but connect the sniper's "fuel pump trigger wire" to it, while then cutting out the sniper relay and its wiring?? if so, the schematic on page 14 of the quick start guide https://documents.holley.com/199r11193.pdf does not show the trigger wire to the fuel pump relay... it only shows the blue wire which would run from the relay to the pump. I will check my actual wiring harness tomorrow, but I think the sniper's fuel pump trigger wire to the sniper relay is pink?? if so, I would just connect that to the oem tan trigger wire at the rocker panel??



I still have to figure out fuel line fittings too, thats up to me basically. I need some -6 fittings and a -8 to -6 reducer as well. I might add in some 90 deg or angled fittings to keep the fuel lines neat where the enter the holley sniper at teh back-side. I wish the handheld display for the sniper showed fuel pressure as a display, but it does not. I think I will (eventually) add in a mechanical fuel pressure gauge at the sniper so I can occasionally visually check the fuel pressure. my only question here is: would the mechanical pressure gauge go on the return line after the sniper's built in regulator ??correct??




is there a better solution to mount my oil-pressure sender unit? I removed the stock one from my 87 TPI engine, and cleaned it up. .. but it certainly will NOT fit standing up vertically (and looks goofy), and it will probably crush into the firewall if mounted with the 90degree fitting like oem style. Is there a less bulky, more compact, simpler oil pressure sender that I can put into the oil port on the top of the block (under the distributor by the intake) ? any other solutions or parts that would work? is there a different oil passage/port in a dart SHP block I could put the oil pressure sender unit into?? it would connect ONLY to my oil pressure dashboard gauge, via the tan wire that goes through the C100. ?? otehrwise, if I do need to keep the bulky sender, I will get a proper angled fitting like https://www.ebay.com/i/153570139170?...RoC2LQQAvD_BwE
.. I am not really digging this orientation of the sender

last question for now:
pertaining to valve cover breathers... engine builder told me its a non-pcv system which I like. If I end up needing a catch can later, so be it, but I should be fine with the no-nitrous use N/A setup for a while. So I am going to order some push in breathers for the valve covers. my question is, can I orient the valve covers(and breathers) to both be at the rear of the engine? it cosmetically looks "goofy" to have one breather rearward and the other one towards the front on each side of the engine? There are no baffles inside the valve cover, so I think that any "pressure/breathing" would be fine if both breather holes are at the back towards the firewall. is this incorrect?







here are some photos.














hows this for starter tooth engagement?
















even more photos can be found at this photo album link which I will add to as I take more photos:

Sorry, a very long post. I hope to get some of this sorted out soon, and ANY advice is very much appreciated.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

I have been doing some research on the ignition wires, but not much yet because I was focused on getting the engine mounted in the car which would then allow me to start running fuel lines, wiring, radiator and hoses, etc. I will probably begin with the actual wiring later in the week.

On Saturday, I installed a 1gauge ground wire that connects both aluminum cylinder heads together. I will have another 1 gauge wire connecting the engine to the "framerail" and also another long 1 gauge cable going all the way back to the trunk at the battery's negative post.




My dad came by after lunch Saturday and we rolled the car out into the driveway because my garage's height clearance would be too tight to get the lift's boom up high enough. Took the engine off the nice engine stand that Nyes racing built for shipping. Bolted up the upper motor-mount brackets and lifted the engine up, over, and down into position. Since I had nothing in the way, everything went really easy. The brand new poly mount on the passenger side gave us a very small amount of a hassle, but we got it done without any real frustration. torqued the motor mount through-bolts down, and rolled the car back into the garage. I took a go-pro video during the install, but I have yet to upload it.











Spent some time installing the new Champion American Eagle 2 row Polished Aluminum radiator. It has two 1" rows and is pretty much a direct fit, aside from some very minor trimming of the lower rubber mounting pads. I could not afford an $800 big name radiator, but have heard a good amount of things about this radiator, and the price was good too at $215 shipped. It has a nice billet cap-cover that I will put on later.







( I still need to find an overflow/expansion tank that I like and that will fit where I want it to go.. hmm also, the lower radiator hose shape will work, so I will buy a new rubber one of those(hopefully with that coil spring inside of it to keep it from collapsing. But my upper hose will not come close to working. I will have to order a new t-stat housing, and then find a way to get a rubber upper hose from the oem radiator location, to the new t-stat location. I am thinking that an oem shape.style hose for a third gen TBI car would work? thoughts? otherwise I will have to find a hose-building kit or something to work.









Next I was going to install the fans, but I noticed that one of the 4 lower fan mounting "ears" was cracked and would never survive on the road, so I have to order a new bracket and will install the fans later. I got the power steering lines installed (with teflon tape on the threads), and fiddled with a few other things.




Decided to use the racetronix fuel pump relay and will therefore be removing the holley one from the sniper wiring harness. Reason being, that the racetronix is mounted a short 18-20 inches away from the fuel tank/pump and it uses heavier 10 gauge wiring. Whereas, the pump relay setup in the holley kit mounts inside the engine bay area, and uses a smaller 12 gauge wire that runs under the car alllllll the way back to the fuel pump, where it would then also be a challenge to connect it to the appropriate pump power feed wire. Scooter reminded me that the sniper ecm sends a negative ground signal to trigger the relay, as opposed to a positive trigger like the racetronix. He helped me learn how to change the polarity of the relay, and I reconfigured the wires to the racetronix relay and tucked it up and out of the way.






I will need to shorten my -8 and -6 fuel lines, since they used to go to the front of my TPI intake, and now they need to go to the rear of the holley sniper throttle body. So I am ordering a few fittings from racetronix. I think I will hold off on the mechanical fuel gauge for another time, and jut simply get the lines hooked up and secured.



One thing I came across in my ignition wiring research, is that in order to get the full benefit of self-learning and timing-control available with the holley sniper, I will need to lock-out my distributor. I am still new to this, but learned that it also requires me to make some changes in the sniper handheld, and to make sure my MSD CD box is configured properly. there are some Holley Youtube videos about this topic, so that is good. Holley recommends that if someone is installing an entirely new setup, to first not worry about the self-learning features, and just use the sniper as a TBI while letting the CD box, distributor, and coil handle the actual timing control. This is to ensure that everything else engine-wise is working properly. Then... Once I am ready to let the sniper take over full engine control, I make some wiring changes, handheld controller changes, MSD box changes, and remove the mechanical advance weights from the distributor. Then the MSD ignition box will simply supply big power to the coil and distributor, but the sniper ecm controls engine timing on its own and I can adjust things as I learn how to. Does this sound correct? This is not how I expected it, but after taking time to learn about it, this is how I think it works? I will not need that little coil-driver device.. apparently, it is for "lower" horsepower/stock ignition setups. So, I looked around, and I THINK this is the diagram/schematic I will need to follow??


One question I have... is, can I use my MSD ignition coil that was on my car with the TPI setup? the box style one? or do I need to have a "canister" style ignition coil? I plan to call and ask holley tomorrow, it would be nice not to have to buy a new coil, because I have my TPI style one on my parts shelf. this one: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/m...xoC6WoQAvD_BwE . if needed, I'll buy one, but does anyone see a problem that I am not realizing?



thats it for now.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

yes you can do this. Depends on your c207 layout but there are a few switched 12 volt wires in there. Find one that is switched 12 volt that does not turn off while cranking and use it for +12 to ecm. My holley hp is set up this way.


fuel pump i also have holleys built in relay. The pump output wire i ran to my c100 fuel pump wire that passes thru the c100 to the back of the car. I also have racetronix dual fuel pump hotwire harness. I simply left all the relays on it. For you, i believe the tan wire on the backside of the c100 that drives the pump relay with 12 volt is what you would connect to the relay on the holley side. If you delete the holley relay that should be ok as long as its hooked to a 12 v wire


also the msd ignition box and timing issues—- the sniper self learns should only pertain to fueling unless it has some sort of closed loop knock sensor control but im not aware of that nor have i heard about this feature on holley hp which i use. So if sniper has a timing table then you should beable to use that and a box no problem. Just like how boxes are used on oem ecms, the box doesnt set the timing it just strengthens the spark energy

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

Orr: you are correct. I am new to this whole timing control/self learning realm, so I am learning as I go. IT does make sense like you said it (and where I have read elsewhere) that if the distributor (MSD 85551) still has the advance weights and springs in it (mine does), than that controls the advance, not the sniper. the CD box (my Digital 6 plus) simply just amplifies the spark to the coil, and the coil to the distributor has big energy. For now I am going to keep it this way. I will probably reconfigure the system later after some street miles and allow the timing to be taken over by the sniper instead (and then lock out my distributor etc)







UPDATES:

got the fuel system finished up. the relay I finally decided to use was the racetronix one since it is nearby the pump, uses heavier gauge power wire, and was already installed by me a few years ago and has worked great ever since. I did have to remove the Holley FP relay from the brand new sniper harness. I also had to shorten my -8 feed and -6 return fuel lines and hook them up to the sniper. while I was at it, I replaced the magnetic fuel filter.







Got my new dipsticks, linkage cables, and bracket. also a mid-mount setup for the alternator. only some of these parts have been installed as of now




next, the headers were bolted on to the engine along with new Remflex header gaskets. the headers are DynoDon's 1.75" "mid length" headers. I had them on the old engine with the DynoDon's Y-pipe and knew they would fit so I plan to use these until I actually do need something bigger (probably when the nitrous gets hooked up)





Installed the Dorman lower radiator hose and bought a stainless steel coil/spring from Earls to help prevent it from "sucking itself closed" ever. Also a Dorman upper hose from autozone, but setup for 3rd gen TBI style mounting. it works, but maybe I will change to something fancier later on?





spent many hours stringing wiring together in the engine bay. My goal has always been to keep the visible wiring to a minimum. I like to run spark plug wires underneath the headers. Much of the other wiring also measured, cut, crimped and put in split-loom to be tucked under the headers. it took a while and my fingers are beat to hell from that and the braided fuel line work.















for the ignition system. I was able to find the proper schematic for what ineeded to do. The components are the holley sniper, MSD 85551 distributor, MSD digital 6 plus CD box, and a MSD ignition coil. last week I called Holley and asked if the ignition coil I had been using on my TPI setup would work, or if i needed a canister style. I was told hat my MSD Blaster 8226 (220 mili-amps) coil would work for now, but not for the big amps needed for nitrous. It was suggested that I could upgrade to the MSD 8207 coil which puts out 300 mili-amps, or even better, go to the MSD HVC-2 8253 coil (450 mili amps). thats a bit expensive, so I am not sure if I can do that right now, so currently, my MSD 8226 coil is what I am using. thoughts?





when everything is wrapped up, I will have to spend some time polishing the fresh red paint, and also the valve covers are coming off and getting a good hand polishing. they are getting a bit "used" already, but I will get them shining; thats for sure.





So...

my goal was to try to test-fire the engine by the end of this weekend. I checked over all the wiring, fuel lines for leaks, engine bay for loose tools and items, filled up 6 quarts of Valvoline VR1 20-50 racing oil (very thick stuff), added about 4 gallons of 93 octane fuel, and cranked it over.
It cranked for a second, coughed, and ran for 2 seconds. I was excited. So I cranked it again, and it fired up, ran (roughly) for a half a minute at idle (see youtube video) . I shut it off and noticed it was running very very rich. it even sneezed a bit of fuel through the sniper. I checked on the sniper handheld and opened the butterflies to let the intake vent out. cranked it over again about 10 mins later and it ran about the same, but still rich. lots of smoke and smell in the garage. but it ran! (alternator belt is a little loose, will tighten that) also, FYI it is just open headers for now, not even a y-pipe until I get the transmission back installed. I wonder if the o2 sensor is reading badly because of just an open header exit 2" away from the sensor?


short VIDEO:

so, I will have to look into the running rich issue. I will have to spend some time with the sniper tutorial, the handheld, and maybe call holley tech support to ask some questions. I kind of think it is a setting or something that I will have to adjust. something on my end. it would have never made 531 hp on the engine dyno at Nyes if it was running this rich, so that leads me to think I have some parameters wrong or improperly configured currently.


I still need to finish wiring up the cooling fans/relays, and I have yet to install the actual throttle cable and bracket.

The torque converter is in California getting redone, and hopefully it will be back soon. then I can install the transmission and do a road-test.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Not that I know of. Regardless, what you have there is STOCK, therefore if your firewall is still stock in that area, it will fit just fine.

No, not really. VCs have a definite int & exh side. The int side has less reinforcement so that it doesn't hit the int when installed; if turned around tot eh exh side, it will almost certainly leeeeek.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

interesting. had no idea about this. I will keep an eye out for leaks and examine the valve cover metal when i take them off next week to give them a hand polish/buff. I certainly like the way it looks to have both breathers at the back of the engine(see above photo), but if it mechanically an issue, I will rethink my positioning

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

update:

converter is being shipped and should arrive this week. Then I can install it, install the trans, the trans fluid lines, new Lokar locking dipstick, Lokar TV cable, and the Dennys Driveshaft. hopefully that should get me a chance to do a road test.

I did begin to install the locking dipstick, and needed to drop the trans pan to do so. it clicks together and the lower part has a locking threaded portion design. it also comes with a click-in plug for if you need to take the trans out of the car or transport it etc.







I installed the Lokar throttle cable and its sniper bracket. I forgot to take a close-up photo of it installed, but it can be seen in other photos below






The coolant overflow/expansion tank arrived and I got it mounted up.



Spent a LOT of time running wires, tucking them in split loom after labeling them and building the relays for the two electric fans. I tested the fans too by changing the on/off parameters in the sniper handheld, and both fans turned on and off when I commanded them to; success! Since I have a 160 thermostat, the engine builder recommended Fan 1 come on at 190 and turn off at 160. Fan 2 come on at 210 and off at 280. With the high volume water pump, Evans coolant, big 2 core aluminum radiator, no AC, and intact air dam.. I am hopeful that I will not have any cooling problems.


It was nice out today so I pushed the car out in the driveway and some neighbors came by to check out my progress, and they helped me put the hood back on too. After that I gave the car a much needed wash and took some photos.



























I am happy with the progress so far.
I will need to re-learn the car and what the new powerplant wants, and will have to work on not-frying the rear tires before adding in Lockup. My budget is getting diminished currently, and I was really hoping to be able to find/buy a nice set of wheels/drag radials or slicks. Also would still love to have the 6 point roll-bar done one day, somehow.







Now that the hood is on, I can get a proper measurement for an air cleaner/filter setup. I really don't think I am digging the typical round circle air filter for this car. I am kinda leaning towards the oval shaped look. I know its not typical 3rd gen fbody, but I am thinking it might look pretty good with the my under-hood components. something like:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ems-ms215-96p
or
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ems-ms215-95ca
or
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/bsp-15420
or
??? thoughts??




took a short video walk-around

NoEmissions84TA

iTrader: (1)

Nice car, great parts, nice build, great work.
A few observations:
I was going to suggest the 45 degree fitting for the oil gauge sending unit, but you already found that.
I used a 90 degree on mine:



Power steering lines - do not use teflon tape there if the fittings are flare or use an o-ring.
You are not going to run a PCV valve? Why not?
If you change your mind, then the PCV valve should be installed in the front DR side valve cover, and your breather at the rear of the other valve cover.
This way, fresh air is pulled into the breather, through the crankcase and lifter valley, picking up any blow-by along the way, and out through the PCV valve and into the intake to be burned. Without PCV, your blow-by gasses will be expelled OUT of your breathers, along with an oil mist that will make a mess of your shiny valve covers.
Because your heads have a raised valve cover rail, you can flip the covers and have no interference issues with the intake manifold. That is/was not always the case, as Sofa had mentioned.
The 1 gauge ground strap at the rear of the heads - why? There are 17 head bolts per side holding each head to the block. Surely the heads are grounded.
Transmission dipstick - to me it looks like you installed the nut upside-down. But I don't know what your directions sheet said about that.
If your coolant overflow bottle overflows, it is going to puke directly on that circuit breaker below.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

thanks! I appreciate any and all feedback!

-yup, I got the oil pressure sensor in a good location and even though it is tight, it should be fine there with the angle fitting.
- I asked the engine builder about 3 or 4 times directly if I should run a PCV system and each and every time he said not to. I am taking his advice for now, but if I start experiencing issues, I will backtrack and figure out the best method to do so. I appreciate your description of the proper way to set one up. that could be a big help later. thanks
-the teflon tape on the steering fittings was I guess just a bad habit. I dont liek to put bolts/fittings/etc in "dry" metal-to-metal so I figured teflon tape would work well here despite the o-ring fitting. I guess I could use locktite or antisieze, or teflon paste? its only a thin two wraps of tape. the power steering system is filled and bled already too. hmm.

- I know it is probably overkill, but I had read SO many times about grounding the engine properly to avoid any potential electrical problems; and I had about 6' of leftover 1 gauge wire, and extra ring terminals, so I just decided to just ground them together, just in case. I made sure that I can use an open end and ratchet-wrench to access the short 3/8ths bolts that hold the wire to each head, should I ever need to remove a cylinder head.
- trans dipstick bolt, perhaps I did. not sure, nothing in the directions about an up or down side, but I just looked at the illustration, and it shows it oriented the way you are describing. I don't see it being a problem, since it was torqued tight by me, but I could be wrong. Wish I had noticed that. damn.

- as for the coolant tank, I it has a separate drain line/port with a 2 foot hose that runs down behind the headlights, bumper, and will dump onto the pavement away from the tire-path. nothing should ever come out of the top of the tank, but I do see what you are saying. I was kind of limited as to where i could(and where I wanted to) put the tank for fitment and for appearance reasons. the Evans coolant runs at a low psi, but I made sure to run a long drain/overflow line out of the overflow tank and down towards the ground. any thoughts on this?

NoEmissions84TA

iTrader: (1)

The Teflon tape won't hurt - I use anti-seize myself. It's all together and not leaking, so leave it alone.
That extra ground wire certainly won't hurt anything. And you were smart to use short hex head bolts.
I couldn't see a coolant tank drain line in the pics. Does it drop in front of the wheel? The Auto-X rules may say something about that.
Sounds like you have everything covered. I will keep following.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

cool. thanks. I really do appreciate your advice and critiques. Since Im not a pro mechanic and just doing this as a hobby, I want to learn from people who are in-the-know.


here is a better photo showing the inlet hose(near) and the outlet hose(behind it). the outlet hose snakes through the headlight area hole and down to back of the crash bar and is angled towards the center of the car, so fluid discharge is not in the line of any tire pathway. I'll put some hose clamps on the hose ends, I didn't have any more small sized ones that were clean appearance wise at the time






so, the torque converter shipped out today, it should arrive friday. perhaps I can get it installed with the trans and driveshaft and get the car out for a road test by the end of the weekend..?


However, I still need an air cleaner assembly, so I built a mock-up of a oval shaped one and a circle shaped one out of cardboard just to check the dimensions and hood clearance..as well as to see what it might look like cosmetically. both cardboard mock-ups are a bit taller/chunkier than actual part dimensions, but it was just for a quick visual look, and to check hood clearance. here are some photos...





















thoughts?




so, from my choices below, you can kind of tell that I am leaning towards the oval shape. I want something sleek but bold/aggressive. no company logos/names/writing on it, no colors or powdercoating, and capable of flowing enough air into the engine. the circle style will work, but it seems too traditional to me.


Here are some choices (in order of my choices):

1. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/bsp-15420

2. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/bsp-15320 (less long than the one above this)

3. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/bsp-15640

4. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-g280

5. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-g286

6. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/bsp-15329

7. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/bsp-15429

8. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ems-ms215-96p

9. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ems-ms215-90p

10. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hly-120-141

11. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ems-ms215-91m

12. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/bsp-15630

13. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/trd-6021

14. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sdm-pce104-1006



In the end it will come down to my personal preference, but figured I would put some choices out there to see if anyone had any serious gripes or criticism before I place the order tomorrow night. .

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

here are few quick photshops,

my favorite choice is still the longer billet specialties one:




but here are a few others.




I might not go with a red/purple K&N filter though. white paper filter element seems to look better with the silver and polished components.

not much a fan of the edelbrock writing on it tho

Whitebird75

I do like the Billet Specialties air cleaner, but are you not afraid of high under-hood air temperatures? Since you have the cowl induction hood, there is the option of a cowl air cleaner for the race track. I am thinking along the lines of a NASCAR style air cleaner for racing and swapping back to the Billet Specialties for show.

What are your thoughts on this?

NoEmissions84TA

iTrader: (1)

I vote for the OVAL also.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

cool. thanks for the idea WhiteBird. I will consider the cowl induction type air cleaner setup. I would certainly have to look into it and do some measuring, but it would be a cool idea for me to do down the road. thanks


I decided on the one I liked from the start, the Billet Specialties 15420. It arrived yesterday and I had my wife help me put it on. I have plenty of hood height clearance, which will be good for when I do put the nitrous wet-plate on. I could perhaps go with a taller filter element too, but this one is good for now.
















The torque converter arrived back from Edge Racing Converters, it now has a 3,400 stall and a renewed 2 year warranty. anti ballooning plates etc.





Installed the converter today, as well as the transmission (a ProStreet Elite unit from Dana at Probuilt Automatics). Bolted in the Dennys nitrous-ready driveshaft, ran the trans lines, lokar cut-to-fit TV cable, shifter cable, etc. The Lokar "anchor-tight" dipstick I got is too long.....I kinda thought it was going to be, but I had no real way to measure the length I needed when the trans was not in the car. So, I just ordered Lokar 1211234 (13") to replace my Lokar 1211244 (26") dipstick and tube. THANKFULLY, I will simply be able to un-click the dipstick tube from the transmission fitting and click in the newer, shorter one; thats the design of the lokar anchor-tight units, should be a quick install. My longer one will be going up for sale, and is in perfect condition. it is just too long and I have nowhere on the firewall I want to mount it. (see photo and video)



Gave the entire car a check over, and lowered it down to the ground. Started it up and pulled it out in the driveway. Added more ATF (AMSOIL ATF and 1 gallon of the CATerpillar ATF that Dana recommended). Drove around the neighborhood a few times stopping at my house occasionally to check, and add atf as needed.

Car drove great. sounds AWESOME in real life. I have the cut-out half open in this youtube video of it at idle. Total run time today was about 45 minutes, and it never stalled or anything. The Holley sniper display is something I need to get familiar with glancing at while I drive, and I still need to learn/adjust some parameters. Fan 1 came on when I was idling for a while and the coolant temp got to about 195.





After the low speed neighborhood laps I took it out to a few main roads and laid into it a bit. It sure has a lot more torque than my old 305 and revv's up fast. It basically just blows the tires off in 1st and 2nd gear until I get off the pedal. It will take some getting used to thats for sure, but it put a huge smile on my face to finally have this car at a performance level I have dreamed of.

some things I need to take care of:
- Shorter anchor-tight trans dipstick (has been ordered)
- fix power steering belt and tighten better (it slipped off the pulley)
- something must be loose inside my Hooker muffler, as I hear a odd flutter from it and when I knock on the muffler case something metallic rattles/buzzes
- cleanup/detailing of the engine bay and painting some bolt heads, hood hinges, install filler plate in bumper etc
(oh, and after I finish off these Nitto 555 street tires, I am going to have to look for something with much more grip)


this video was taken the first minute I pulled it out of the garage when the sniper was in open loop and is still learning the engine. after the 12 miles today the idle has cleaned up a lot and it runs much smoother.



overall, super happy with this project! the dream of taking my high school car and turning it into a +500 hp street car is pretty much complete

NoEmissions84TA

iTrader: (1)

You still have another groove available to run a second v-belt for the power steering.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

yup, coincidentally I was looking at exactly that today when I was re-tightening my ps belt. I did get it tight and as far as I can tell, its staying that wasy while driving, while hot, and after cooled down. no slop or wiggle .. If I do need a second belt, I'll certainly add it. also, the newly rebuilt/refreshed steering box feels great. steering is super crisp and on point !

I drove the car more today. roads were very crowded so I couldnt really get on it to much. I did hit the highway a little bit. when I mash the throttle at mid/higher rpms, the car does want to get up and go, but it sure doesn't feel like +500 hp worth of power. it felt similar to the pull of spraying the 100 nitrous shot into my old 305 at wot, good and noticable, but nothing neck breaking. I am sure tthat something's gotta be adjusted or figured out, which is a new teritory for me; troubleshooting/tuning/dialing-it-in. . I do feel the instant kick/torque from a dead stop, slow roll, but it doesnt feel like its making the big power. ?? I expected to be rocked going from a TPI 305 with a 100 shot to a 531hp/513 tq level. I know there is a fair amount of tire spin, but I think there is more to this that I have to figure out to make the engine come alive in the car as opposed to the engine dyno.

I also have a chirp/shreeeak (not a squeal) for about 1.5 seconds whenever I go to WOT. Something is telling me it is not a belt, but coming from the sniper?? I searched online about this, but nothing much came up. Might call Holley tomorrow and ask.

IT is supposed to be nice weather tomorrow, so maybe I can take the car out again for a bit and try to datalog. I also wanted to try the 1/4 and 1/8 mile feature of the free TRC (That Racing Channel) phone app. I am no experienced racer, but right now the car feels like a high 12 second car, which isn't a bad starting point, but I feel that for the power/tq of the new motor, the 3,400 converter, 3.55 gears, and approx 3,400 pounds (plus another 200 pounds with me driving) it should be quite a bit rowdier. It definitely felt that way yesterday, but today not so much.

I can try to get the car weighed again at the local quarry tomorrow too, since I last weighed in in November with the old engine etc and it was 3,410 without me. I'll check plugs, belts, vac leaks, and to an underneath/engine bay bolt check too.


- Anyone with any suggestions, tuning ideas, component configuration changes, let me know. and thank you! It'll get there, I just have to figure out how to make it feel/perform like a mid-high 11 second car, which is the territory I was shooting for before pouring nitrous to it.

NoEmissions84TA

iTrader: (1)

I don't know, which is why I am asking - does the Holley Sniper need more time at WOT to self-adjust?

skinny z

One would think so. How else would it learn? Is there access to data logs or tables to see what's going on?

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

You guys might be right. Maybe it needs to get "learned" more. However, my curiosity still gets confused because it did make power onthe engine dyno. see dyno sheet in previous posts. it's not the base Holley tune. it is indeed the tune from when the engine was dyno'd, but there wasn't much tuning that needed to be done on the dyno from what I was told. the sniper is NOT controlling timing advance ..that is still currently handled by the weights/springs in the new distributor...for now. But it was run on the dyno in this exact configuration. In my car, its a different story (converter, exhaust, gears) Took the car out today again for a short bit, its certainly good at frying the tires down low and accelerating great, but not earth shattering just yet.

Stopped over at the quarry's scale and weighed it with a full tank of fuel. Previous weight was 3,410. Current weight is 3,440. I know the heavy 1 gauge wiring (78 feet of it!) added weight during the battery relocation project and battery box. Glad the new engine, sheetmetal enginebay panels, cooling system, etc didn't add too much to the car. I am sure I lost weight somewhere too, but gained it back as well. Would love to put it on 4 corner scales again and see how my weight distribution is, but for now, I'll live with the 3,440 pounds. street-car

Called holley about the TBI whistle noise. They knew exactly what I was talking about! I also found info on it online and the whistle noise was discussed in a youtube video. People determined it to be with the airflow through/past the IAC. it causes a completely harmless whistle, but it is indeed an odd sound for a N/A car! the solution is one of those 4 barrel carb/tbi spacers. I will probably do this to solve the whistle noise, but ALSO because I am surprised how much heat soak makes it up to the ECU area of the sniper unit. Many people (including holley tech) recommend a 4 barrel spacer to keep the heat out of the TBI and it's self-contained ECU unit. Will order one soon.

Called pat at Nyes. He suggested I check the ignition timing not only at idle (which I checked and is 14-15 deg with my timing light), but also at 3,500 rpm when it should be full advanced and be around 38 deg. This is not something I have ever checked before, and I'll need a helper/neighbor/wife to come work the pedal. I tried it today, but my timing light (innova) wasn't flashing steady at higher RPMs??? new territory for me. Pat said that sometimes the combination of MSD boxes, coil, distributor, etc can retard ignition timing a few deg during advance, so perhaps diagnosing this as correct or incorrect can help steer me in the right direction. This can/will all change later when I lock-out the distributor and let the sniper control timing, but for now I' would like to check it as it is configured.

otherwise, I want to put the car up in the air again, do a full bolt/nut check on everything, check driveline angle, degrease underneath, and figure out that exhaust shield/muffler rattle. have to realign the hood, and install the shorter trans fluid dipstick when it arrives.

I took a few data logs while doing some easy driving around town today, so maybe I'll get them uploaded and start to learn. I would love to try to put a newer version of windows on that olde laptop I have. While talking to Holley tech they told me the sniper software won't work with Windows Xp which is what I have on that old laptop. It also runs very slow, but I was hoping to try to make it work. otherwise I'll just have to remove the SD card and bring it inside to my desktop.

skinny z

Seeing as you have a mechanical distributor, do you have an idea of what kind of timing is built into it? The data logs aren't going to show that. That's something you'll have to map out yourself. With and without the vacuum advance disconnected.

EDIT: Re-reading your post I see that the timing is a bit of mystery. That's the first place I'd be looking.

NoEmissions84TA

iTrader: (1)

While we are on the subject of timing and later letting the Sniper control the advance, you should read this:
https://www.onallcylinders.com/2017/...g-relates-efi/

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

SkinnyZ - I am totally brand new to this topic of timing/tuning/dialing things in, so please bear with me. As for the built in timing of the MSD 85551, I know there is no vacuum advance, it is just mechanical. I have not taken a look at the springs, weights inside of it, but I know the engine builders got it all dialed in and it made good power. I am going to try to go out and check total timing advance later on today. I am using an Innova 3568 timing light.

NoEmissions: oh wow, rotor phasing. Certainly another new topic for me right there. I think i grasp the basic concept of it; I will have to dig in deeper to fully understand it, let alone implement it when it's time to have the sniper control timing.


I have so far put 105 miles on the car/engine since saturday; almost one full tank of gas, but lots of idleing and stationary running time. Did a good 40 miles of highway today. It is definitely no slouch! It pulls hard in every gear except 4th(OD). I like it, I will check and verify timing at full advance(should be 38 deg right)? I think the sniper is learning, since throttle response and drive-ability is seeming to get better. I just want to be sure I'm not operating at a reduced capability of what the engine is capable of, thats what I meant by my previous posts... it reaching its full potential..



Last night I de-greased the underside completely. Very clean chassis now. This was because, yesterday I was sad to see a drip of oil coming form the pan/flexplate area when I pulled out of the garage. I checked, and it looks like leaking at the rear main? I am thinking this is because I do not have a PVC valve... I have seen some light smoke vapor coming from both valve cover breathers when the hood is open and engine is idling while hot. I think I have too much crankcase pressure. I will remove one breather and put in a PCV valve. Any suggestions on one that is not just a cheap-o plastic chineese component? I would like something nice, reliable, shiny, and compact. I only will be doing a PCV on the one valve cover and the other one will retain a breather. I am not in the market for expensive new valve covers yet, so we are going to try one PVC and see if it works. Since hte sniper has only one 3/8" diameter rear vac port (the other two are smaller 3/16") can i simply run a T fitting ... basically have my brake booster AND my PCV valve go into the T fitting, and then the T into the sniper 3/8" port?
-Question, if the rear main seal is now leaking, is there a chance that it can NOT leak if I install a PCV, or is it pretty much now that the seal leaks, it will always leak? I am going to call Pat at Nyes too, but figured I would ask here.


The car is indeed fast. The engine has power, thats for sure. I hope to get it all dialed in somewhat soon, but there is a chance that if Island dragway is open for test and tune this sunday, I might go. Despite my 5 year old and worn out Nitto 555 street tires, I would hope for a mid-low 12 ? Thoughts? in full street trim.

I determined the source of the exhaust rattle. I took down the Hooker AeroChamber muffler and found that an internal pipe in the muffler broke off of its bracket inside the case. No way to remove it and no way to fix it without cutting open the whole muffler case and re-welding it. No thanks. Holley/Hooker is replacing it at reduced cost and free shipping. short video explaining what the heck I'm talking about
I don't mind the whistle, but i want to try to adjust IAC and throttle blades if that might clear up the whistle and also maximize performance. I still might do an inexpensive Phenolic spacer, in order to reduce heat soak to the sniper ecu. Just preventative. thoughts? I have read that ONLY 4 barrel/hole spacers are suggested with the sniper. somethign liek : https://www.ebay.com/i/261328386669?...hoC7UUQAvD_BwE thoughts? I STILL have every intention of hooking up my nitrous to this engine one day. I am wondering if the above spacer will play nice with a wet nitrous plate??


My shorter trans dipstick arrives today. will install it while cleaning up the trace amount of oil at the rear seal that I can see. I really hope the seal issue can go way with a PCV system.

I am probably going to be buying/installing hood pins soon. I was doing some "testing" and at high speeds I can still see my fiberglass hood lift. I have all new hood bumpers and pads and they are adjusted as best as I can get, but I would really really hate to have the fiberglass hood lift and crack or fly open/off. I love the clean look of my hood, but I think a nice set of hood pins would be ok. I am not into the areocatch or quick latch style for this car, so something like : https://www.summitracing.com/parts/d...oaAl_lEALw_wcB with the lanyards/cables removed.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

ok, phew. it is NOT the rear main seal. there was oil higher up on the backside of the engine and some in the front trickling down by the manifold area. I pulled the old PCV valve off my 305 TPi valve cover and rigged up a TEMPORARY PVC valve setup which T's into the brake booster line and then both go into the back of the sniper. after wiping down the oil, I did a 20 minute test drive and came back and no smoking from the one remaining breather. pcv valve is sucking well, but the grommet is a little loose,and I do still want to test this setup more. but hopefully this will prevent positive crankcase issues causing the oil leaks up by the intake. hopefully I don't have to re-seal anything? my brakes are a little less grabby, as to be expected, this is a tradeoff for sharing the vacum port right? any other options ?

by https://www.flickr.com/photos/iroczman15/, on Flickr




while I was out for my test drive, the UPS guy came and dropped off the replacement (shorter) trans dipstick. while the engine cooled down I installed it. My longer one is now up for sale. make an offer if you want it before I put it on ebay and the classifieds.






I checked timing again. base timing at idle is 14-15 deg. Help me out here if I am doing something wrong. So, my Innova timing light is set at ZERO and I am reading 15 deg on the balancer. right? right. Then i push the up button on the timing light till it gets to 38 deg, right? next I shoot the light at the balancer while revving up the engine to around 3,500 rpms. I can't get a steady flashing reading, it just flashes all over. should I not be dialing the timing light up? am I doing something wrong?

I also played around with the IAC and throttle position settings as per the manual and recommended by others. Had the car plenty warm, (see video) in neutral, and TPS sensor was at 0 deg. My IAC starts high and sometimes levels off lower, but later on it will become high again. I fiddles with the adjuster screw and got it to between 2-10 on the handheld display. this made it run badly ,and in fact it would stall out whenever I would go to give it throttle... engine stalls out/off in the video. during the test drive, if I stabbed the throttle, it wold buck and hesitate for a second, then wind up and go. it was not doing this earlier today... it would just go.

skinny z

Lots to read!
Here are a few thoughts.
Timing: With the mechanical distributor and no vacuum advance, things will be a bit different when you choose to let the EFI control the timing. As it is, there is no load compensated advance, or RPM based. The EFI will construct a timing map based on engine load and RPM. Or it should. So expect some driveability changes when you make the switch. As for checking your total timing now, do you have a degreed damper (balancer)? If you do, leave the timing light at zero and observe the marks as you advance the RPM. The pointer will line up with the amount of advance being produced. It's easier that way. There is some controversy whether or not a dial back timing is OK to use with an ignition box. All I can to tell is that with my arrangement (MSD distributor and 6AL ignition box) it didn't make a bit of difference. I check the timing with and without the dial back function as well as using a light that has no dial back feature.
PCV: Hook it up properly and permanently. There should be more than one large fitting to accept a 3/8" hose at the base of the throttle body and also on the manifold itself. Push a PCV valve into one valve cover and connect it to the base of the throttle body. The breather on the opposite valve cover will allow fresh air in and the PCV valve will react to engine vacuum and open at the appropriate (negative) pressure to allow the crankcase fumes to be drawn into the manifold. Use the port on the manifold to connect to the brake booster. There shouldn't be any kind of trade-off to running both. It's better to keep them separated. Using the port at the base of the TB will allow for even distribution into the plenum for all the cylinders to share. That criteria for the brake booster doesn't apply.
Hope that helps some (and makes sense).
You should be in the 12's easily even with a miserable street trim 60' time. That's enough HP for solid low 11's in a drag racing package.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

thanks Skinny- I am still a few weeks/months away from converting the timing control over to the sniper. I know several adjustments will be needed at that point, so much thanks for pointing that out. I will ask for MORE help then (horray!) as for your method of checking total timing, thats actually what I had previously done two days ago....... leave the timing light at 0 and rev up the rpms. the light would just seem to fire randomly and I was seeing totally wacky large numbers on the marked balancer. (it has etched in timing marks, if thats what you mean by "degreed damper" ??? I will give it a shot again. I wish it showed me a number like 38 deg or so, then I could currently say that the timing is well set and move on. just haven't been able to actually see a number that makes sense for advanced timing.. just base timing, which is at 14-15deg.


- for the PCV system, I certainly want to do it right, for sure. I want to find/buy the proper PCV valve(s) hoses, fittings, and make it work properly. Unfortunately with the holley sniper, there is only one single 3/8 vac port and two 3/16" vac ports built in to the back of the unit. There apparently is one threaded hole/port at the front of the sniper that currently has a pipe plug in it, but I am not really interested in using that port, A) for appearance reasons, and B because that area is exactly where I wanted to build a bracket to mount the nitrous and fuel solenoids ... so I need that space. Also, unfortunately, the Edelbrock Victor Jr manifold does not come with any vac ports built in. I did some research on this and many people will end up drilling and tapping a hole into the intake manifold for a PCV vac port. yikes! . I am not doing that just yet. engine is freshly assembled and I am just not pulling off the manifold to drill into it at this point in time. Another option is to buy a 1" carb spacer (4 hole, phenolic material), and drill/tap a hole/port into it for a vac hose to go in.

As you mentioned, it is better to keep PCV vacuum and brake booster vacuum separated.. but at this point I am "limited" to the one 3/8 port at the back of the sniper unit. I am going to try to find a new/proper PCV valve that will work well and will also not look unsightly and cheap. I plan to keep one valve cover breather as we both mentioned above.



I really hope to run a mid 12 if I can get to the track on Sunday and if it is warm enough for them to be open. I would really like to get this timing/tuning issue sorted out before hand, so I will try to work on it Friday or Saturday if i can find a few free hours. the PCV/crankcase pressure issue and the timing/tuning/power are two separate issues I am hoping to fix, and my makeshift PCV system seemed to do its job during my 15 minute test drive later on today. I will keep an eye on it. I certainly have to figure out the tuning, because whatever I did today messing with the timing light, IAC, TPS, handheld sniper display.. is causing the engine to want to bog/slow/stall when i hit the throttle, the opposite of what it should. I might have fouled up the plugs too, so maybe I will pull them out and clean them while I continue to TRY to figure out the tune/power issue.. I have a spare set of plugs, but I am not sure the best idea would be to put them in now and immediately foul them out. Would rather put them in after I think the tune is better. Maybe when i get to the track Sunday?


I AM SORRY FOR ALL THE TYPING AND TEXT.
Just trying to put as much info as I have out there so experts/helpers can be helpful.

NoEmissions84TA

iTrader: (1)

You have your answer. You just need to drill & tap for 1/4" or 3/8" NPT and use the proper barbed fitting.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

Yea. Agreed. The only problem with the spacer idea is all of my throttle cables TV cables and fuel lines are already cut the fuel lines will be too short and so forth. That’s my dilemma


and as for my
timing light issues. Looks like I am one of the unfortunate people who have a timing light that is unhappy with the multiple sparks caused by the MSD box. I did some research last night about it. Crap. I’ll try to find a different timing light to use. I had just bought this light last year for $100 and that stinks

skinny z

That's exactly what we did to the Vic Jr intake in one of the "fleet" cars. Right at the back between runners 7 and 8.
Regarding the spacer , whatever your intention (heat separation), it's going to change the characteristics of the engine. Typically it'll add or move the top end output up the RPM range while taking away a little from the bottom. Keep that in mind. It would be an interesting back to back test at the track.

skinny z

Perhaps your local auto parts store has a "Loan-a-Tool" program where you can borrow one.
Do yourself a favour and take a good look and the balance. If it's etched with degree markings, (like the one below) highlight the 38 point with a marker or something to make it stand out. That may help when you're winging the engine to 4 grand.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

awesome good point. thanks fellas. I will mark my balancer at 38 to help with visually seeing the mark. I picked up an old Sears Craftsman timing light from my uncle's workshop today. Will work on the timing a bit more tomorrow and hopefully this timing light has no issue with the MSD multiple sparks.


I was discussing this same exact topic with the New Jersey camaro/firebird group, and one guy pointed out that the stumbling/hesitation/stalling sounds like a vacuum leak. Now, prior to me installing the PCV valve and 3/8 hose to a T and then into the sniper..... I had NO stumbling, stalling etc. It only appeared when I setup the PCV valve, which the goal of that was to alleviate the oil leak and smoke vapor coming from breathers. I had initially thought there was oil leaking at the rear main seal, but then I discovered traces of it higher up behind the engine in the back, and also a drip of oil from the very front of the intake manifold where it sits on the china wall. I will try to spray some starting fluid directly at those two areas tomorrow and see if it appears to show signs of a vac leak. also, i think there is an old trick where i can hold a tissue or something near these areas and see if it gets sucked towards the intake... if so, then I have a vac leak there. hopefully not,



HOWEVER, another thought popped in my head. what if having the PCV valve now setup into the 3/8 port of the sniper is causing too much "un-metered cranckase air" into the intake past the tbi sniper. this would cause stumbling/stall right? therefore, what if I simply kept the PCV valve in one valve cover, but instead of using the 3/8" vac port of the sniper, i use one of the available 3/16" vac ports next to it? would this work? would the vac pressure suck the smaller 3/16" hose closed? would it provide some, but not as much cranckase venting? would it be better for me to use the pcv valve with a 3/8" hose and then "neck it down" with a reducer right at the sniper unit since the 3/* hose is stronger? or would it be better for me to reduce the size of the hose right at the pcv valve and run the 3/16 hose to the smaller vac port?

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

You don't want oil in the brake booster. Best to get the PCV off of that hose.

So one thing I notice is that vacuum is nearly non-existent at idle. I've never had a single plane intake so not sure what to expect there. Where is the MAP sensor located?

Your engine died because it got too rich. It's a fueling problem and the IAC is working too hard. Need to open the throttle body a bit and give the engine more air. Then reset TPS. TPS seems to be a bit confused whether it is at 0% or 1%, so back off the screw a little bit after the reset procedure. That way TPS will always be at 0% at idle. The lack of air flow and TPS are both part of the reason why your engine died.

If small movements of the idle screw are causing large change of IAC position, then that means the throttle blade is too far open (high angle) and you'll never have a good idle. Only way to fix that is give the engine more base air flow by drilling a small hole (1/16") in the blade. After that you should be able to close the blade angle further and get better control of IAC adjustments. Better to add another 1/16" hole then to oversize the first hole because the flow area goes up really fast (by the square of radius) as the hole gets larger.

Part of the instability is you need to smooth the fuel cells around idle. Overall the engine just needs a good tune. It's also easier to tune idle at a higher rpm. You've got 25° overlap so no need to idle so low. My engine idles at 1050 rpm. I like a snappy throttle. I could idle lower but it would be lazy off idle.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Also, I'd stop using that little screen and get a laptop computer with the Holley EFI software and work in that. You're going to need it. There's just no hope without being able to view data logs.

If it's like HP EFI software then you can change the learn parameters so it fills out the fuel learn table quicker. And it won't learn without being in closed-loop mode, so check that it can go into closed loop at idle. Eventually you'll probably want to lock in the tune and idle in open loop mode, but you're a long ways from that yet.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

thanks Qwk ! man, I wish I had some extra money for a laptop. I had an old on (10+ years old) given to me by a co worker that I keep in the garage. its slow but ti works. it has windows XP on it, and I TRIED to download the holley sniper software to it, but Sniper software will not work with windows XP, holley tech support confirmed this with me. so do I put a newer version of windows on the laptop? I have spent too much $ this winter already, and throwing more $ at a laptop is a tough thought. I do have my new-ish HP desktop in the house that I can put SD cards into, so perhaps I will use this for now. I plan on starting to datalog very soon..perhaps even this weekend when I go to the race track.


as for the brake booster getting oil to it.. I do have that little 1-way valve attached to the booster, and if the intake is pulling vacuum/crankcase pressure.. how would oil make its way up that for to the booster? higher rpm scenarios? Im just asking because I don't know?

I am unsure of the exact location of the MAP sensor, but it is the standard holley sniper 550-510 unit.

I did think that the engine was running rich. I've checked a few plugs and they seem to be on their way to getting fouled up. sometimes when I start the car I can smell fuel and see a bit of smoke at the tailpipes. it did this before and after the air filter/cleaner was on. I agree that the engine needs a good tune. I will have to find someone locally who can do it while showing me how to do it. I am a bit leery of just going into the software and fiddling with things half-knowing what I think I might be doing. I might increase the target hot idle speed from 850 to 950 and see if that cleans up idle conditions. I am a LOT hesitant to start drilling any holes on any components of this brand new $10,000 engine combination, at this point in time.

thanks for the advice everyone. keep it coming!

NoEmissions84TA

iTrader: (1)

DON'T go to the track! You are nowhere near ready for that. You go ONLY when everything is as perfect as you can get it.

skinny z

That's pretty good advice. It'd be a shame to detonate that engine into little pieces of what used to be pistons. Get the timing sorted out. Address your air/fuel ratios. You don't want a top end lean out to destroy all that good work.
​​​​​​Now perhaps it could argued that the track is the place to do all of that but a solid baseline is a better game plan.
Been there. Blew that up.

​​

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

I hear what you guys are saying. I do.
I plan on spending most of the day tomorrow working on the tune, timing, pcv issues. I wan't going to say much about it here, but I have some major life circumstances at the end of this month which may possibly prevent me from using/enjoying the car for many months to come (its a big maybe at this point, but totally could happen) So I am trying to squeeze in as much car time as I can in the next two weeks. Hence why my winter build of this car went relatively quickly

I will be getting the base and advanced timing confirmed/set tomorrow. I have a second timing light that is an old craftsman type. My neighbor also has one, and if all else fails I will see if I can rent one from autozone real quick. I am going to move the target hot idle rpms up from 850 to 950 and see what that does. I will also take time out to get he IAC and TPS dialed in. I have most of the afternoon tomorrow to do all of this, as well as test drive it, and change spark plugs if needed.

The weatehr is going to be unusually warm here in NJ this Sunday, and it is opening day at my local dragstrip. simply a test and tune day. and it could possibly be one of the only ones I can do for quite some time, especially if we have a cold snap or snow here in march, my time might be used up for months to come if I don't go Sunday. There are some people I know going, who are somewhat knowledgeable with tuning and holley efi stuff, so by them being there to help me in person instead of via texts or the internet, it migth be a big help.

I will datalog, probably tomorrow while driving around town, and sunday as well. If I could rig up a way to have my GoPro video record my holley sniper display I will do that too.


PCV update. I decided to try another experiment. I still have one fresh air breather in the drivers side valve cover. I temporarily got rid of the T fitting which connected my PCV valve (pass valve cover) and my brake booster to the sniper baseplate. I now just have the brake booster going directly to the 3/8 vac port at the sniper.. like I initially did. I then took a piece of 3/16" hard-walled plastic tube and connected it to my PCV valve and to one of the 3/16" vac ports at the sniper baseplate. Therefore it could still pull some crankcase ventialation, but just only about half as much as the 3/8" hose that was on it before (which remember, T'd with the brake booster). I am going to road test this tomorrow and see how it works. I was fortunate to have the hard walled tube, because I am sure a soft rubber tube would collapse. If the smaller sized pipe works well, i will clean up the install components and make it look nice, but for now it is just an experiment









My new replacement muffler arrived today. The "rattle" I had coming from my muffler was an internal piece of pipe that broke off from inside the case. Got a new muffler at a discounted rate from Hooker, with free shipping. Installed it today and cut open the case on the old one out of curiosity. There was a good amount of water condensation inside it. I am glad that I will not hear that piece of pipe rattling and rolling around anymore.












again, tomorrow will be spent in the garage and on the road trying to get this car dialed in as much as possible. so any suggestions, tech advice, tuning advice.. please let me know. thanks I will be posting an update and possibly some videos on this thread tomorrow night. maybe even some datalog info.

skinny z

Sitting here at my PC when your post came through.
On a lesser level, I think I can relate to your life circumstance. About the most I can say is good luck.
If you're going to take a stab at racing the car, this is the stuff I want to make sure of.
Regardless your state of tune, can you buy, beg or borrow some slicks? Anything other than your street tires. My guess is that you'll blaze any real street tire right into third gear. It'll really take away from trying to get meaningful results.
Get the timing set. Then pull a couple of degrees. You can creep up on it if you can get in enough passes. Better a safety margin than rattling your way down the track. That's hard on parts.
Can you see you AFR at WOT? Your handheld should tell you. Start rich and go leaner from there for best trap speed. Your dyno sheet might list best ratio.
Pay more attention to the above than your PVC for now but be aware that you're gapped for nitrous. I expect more crankcase pressure and getting it right is important. I've got some bits to share on that later if you're interested.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

I keep hearing 38 degrees timing... Why that number?
Strong n/a setups tend to have really good combustion and need less timing at WOT. To put it in perspective, I have only 24 to 26 degrees total timing at WOT with my engine. I know SBC needs more timing, but 38 degrees just sounds super risky to me. I'd be surprised if you need much over 30 degrees.

N/A engines make nearly the same HP across a wide range of AFR. I'd just play it safe and set the Holley EFI to a target 12.4 AFR at WOT until you have a lot more experience and seat time with the car. Make sure the 'Learn' is enabled and it's going to fill in the fuel tables at WOT within a couple drag runs.

Timing is where you're going to gain your power in the future. But you just want to sneak up on that from the bottom, not start high and sneak down.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

Thanks guys I appreciate it. So I spent some time today with the handheld as well as the IAC and my second timing light which seems to be able to work with the MSD ignition box. Thankfully. I was able to adjust it so that it reads right around 34° at for full advance. The hiolle sniper handheld shows my advance at 35 deg in "real time" . thats the highest number I have seen on the handheld. As you guys mentioned that seems to be a much safer number than 38 especially for starting out and then working it on up from there

i’m bringing the timing light tomorrow and I’ll check throughout the day. The IAC was giving me trouble and it seems it’s a very sensitive sensor and screw. It also seems to jump the IAC percentage/count around a bit even at a regular hot idle. I took a video after a final five minute cruise session just this afternoon. I also data log this cruise which was about eight minutes long. If I can figure out how to upload the data log and share it on here or send it to any of you guys that are willing to look at it that might be a big help. However here is the video of all my current settings on the highway sniper handheld and again this was after the car was hot and had just been driven. At the very end when I was about to turn the car off I went to revv it a little bit and it began to stumble. But otherwise it had good power good idle




As for drag slicks and radials. So that has been the one thing I was holding off on ordering just until I got the car lined out and driven around just enough and maybe one day at the track which should be tomorrow. I still have about $500 or so left in my budget and I wanted to keep that exactly for a set of slicks. If I had more money to spend this year I would get a set of drag wheels and front runners but the budget is tight and I’m limited to just being able to get to rear as for drag slicks and radials

Since I still have my original 16 x 8” Iroc Z wheels I did some research and found that there are only a couple options for drag slicks for a 16 inch wheel. I am very confident that tomorrow I will have tires spin on these old NIttos but if I can make a couple passes down the track that would make me happy enough. Then possibly on Monday I can order a set of slicks for the old Iroc the wheels. I know that Hoosier makes a slick and a QuickTime Pro. I’m not really going for looks currently when it comes to this type of drag slick so the best function would be what I would want since they’re just going on my old iroc wheels. Maybe in the future I’ll get a dedicated set of nice wheels. If anyone has any suggestions or pictures or actual part numbers for a 16 inch set of drag slicks please let me know but I think I found some and I’ll post the info later or tomorrow.


But if you guys wanted to take a look at the above YouTube link for the video just to make sure my parameters/settings in the handheld sniper unit look to be OK that would be awesome. I’m happy to have the idle and advance timing set pretty good as well as the oil issue and the PCV issue seemingly solved at this point.

right now I am going to put in a full new set of plugs capped at .035. Auto lite 3924. With all the back-and-forth adjustments I’ve done over the past week I’m sure that these plugs are fouled out enough to warrant a fresh set going in

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

I don't know anything about the Autolite spark plugs so can't comment on that. But I do know you can't go wrong with the NGK TR5.

Did you notice that you're only getting 93% throttle movement? Need to adjust the cable so you can get full throttle. Then do the TPS reset procedure again.

Target AFR at idle is probably fine. Just give the engine what it wants to produce the most vacuum at idle (lowest MAP value). Idle wavers when fueling and air are not dialed in. The IAC actually can't react fast enough to control idle real well, so the ECM relies primarily on spark advance which is fast to react. You want base timing down in the teens where you have it because it gives the ECM some room to control idle by advancing idle spark into the 20's, when needed.

Target AFR at cruise is fine for now. Stoich is probably around 14.2 - 14.3 if you have a little ethanol in the fuel. You can lean it out a couple tenths and it will help maintain the spark plugs by burning off the carbon. The spark advance in cruise is fine for now. You'll probably end up with more advance before you're done tuning. Again, set it where it produces maximum vacuum (lowest MAP value). If it goes into knock retard then you're probably 4 to 6 degrees too far advanced.

I would make WOT richer at 12.4 AFR. It's a safety net in case you're wrong. It's a myth that AFR has to be dialed in to the gnats ***. Engine will make power either way. The 35° spark advance at WOT is freaking me out. High performance engines don't require a lot of advance. I ran my LS7 half the summer at 22° until I sorted out fuel and air, and then made peak power at 26° on dyno. You're going to need more spark advance than me, but the point is nothing will ruin your n/a engine faster than being too aggressive with spark timing.

Crank (start up) timing is good. IAC position before crank is low. Engine will probably start better with more air. It's called "IAC Parked" position in my HP EFI software. Not sure if it can be changed in your system. I like my engine to explode to life on start up so I run a high IAC Parked position 90% cold and 83% hot.

So your current learn of -29% is showing that the initial Holley startup file had a **** load of fuel that you don't need. But it only slowly corrects this situation when in closed-loop mode AND learn is enabled, and this is not the case quite a bit while driving. I can guarantee there are mountains and valleys in your fuel map, and it will stay that way until either you manually smooth the table, or drive a whole lot and give the system opportunity to re-learn.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

thanks Qwk. you guys are awesome. I apprecaite all advice

I just put in a the new set of autolites but I can certainly try a set of the NGK's next\

Since the day I installed the sniper I have only see a max of 94% throttle on the sniper TPS. In the holley sniper user setup guide they said anythign between 88%-100% at the TPS is normal. Its not my cable, I checked this a while ago, its the snipers throttle blade stop hitting the housing. So I guess its set that way for life? do I need to recalibrate the TPS or adjust it?

Ok, good to know my base timing and idle AFR is good. thanks. and cruise AFR also(but also, remember the sniper is not controlling the timing, still mechanical distributor). I am unsure about the ethanol content herein NJ. I just put pump 93 sunoco fuel in it. full tank.

I will richen up the WOT afr to 12.4 like you suggested. thank you.
as for the 35 deg timing, I dont think I can dial that back any more right? I would need to change out weights and springs in the dist ? I simply wanted the timing light to check it to make sure it wasnt like 40 or above.

I would like the engine to start a bit quicker too. It does seem to take about half a second of cranking, so perhaps that IAC parked value can be changed. good to know.

I would love to learn to read my fuel maps and datalogs. I just am working on uploading some right now actually. I have the files here on my desktop and can try to email them out, but I don't think I can upload them to this site?

I stopped by a local (new) performance shop today and they have good experience with holley software and tuning. they ordered a dyno over the winter, but it has not been installed yet. I might need to become friendly with these guys so I can learn and tune and get everything best optimized.


one thing of many I don't comprehend yet is both the MAP and MAT values. I need to learn that stuff.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Looks like you're buying a spring and weight kit then.
What timing was used during the dyno runs by your engine builder?

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

So if the Holley system can't control spark timing, then you literally have no knock detection or knock retard, right?

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

Yea. Very true. I guess I ha e no knock detection then. I know I didn’t install a knock sensor for sure. the Weights and springs are the same as they were when the engine was built and dyno tested. I was told it should be right at 38 deg like they had it. Afr ratios during the dynonpull can be seen on the sheet too

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Oh ya, I see, not so worrisome.
I was genuinely looking out for your best interest.

Have fun tomorrow, man!

skinny z

The total you see via the timing light at 3000 RPM is a combination of your initial/idle advance plus the mechanical advance built into the distributor. Your 35 total with the idle timing stated as ~15 degrees suggests 20 built in. For testing dialing back on the idle advance (by rotating the distributor) is the simplest way to ease off on the timing. Then a couple of degrees at at time to sneak up on getting best results seen on your time slips.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

Awesome. Thanks guys. I mean it.

the plan for tomorrow is to street drive it over to the track 25 mins away. I’m all loaded up with hand tools, Jack, Jack stands, helmet, etc. get in and pay for test and tune then go through tech.

i will check a few of the brand brand new plugs I put in earlier and maybe dial the timing back a little more for the first pass. My 4 year old nitto 555 street tires I’ll put the tears at 28-30 psi and the fronts at 35. I will not go in the water box but instead do a short dry burnout. Foot brake stage it and maybe stall/rev it up to about 2,000 rpm if the car doesn’t creep forward. Possibly make a full pass the first run, but if anything sounds/acts awry, I’ll get off the throttle

i spoke to a few people today about borrowing slicks or drag radials for next time but Sadly I’ll be stuck with my street tires for tomorrow.

NoEmissions84TA

iTrader: (1)

ATCO raceway, I assume?

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

No, but my friend is going to atco tomorrow. That’s south jersey I live in northern Nj so Island dragstrip is the closest one to me, just a short drive away. Tomorrow is their opening day since the weather will be warm enough. Atco would be about a 2.5 hour drive each way