IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

I had the car all prepped and ready to go to the Test and Tune this past Friday night at Island. All I had to do was pack some food and drinks and hit the road at 4:30pm. Website said T.B.D. for T&T all week long. Decided to phone call, .. when I learned they are not yet ready to hold Friday night T&T events. Total bummer. unpacked the tools from the car and did some test hits on the highway instead. I have been working on dialing in the WOT base table and ensuring my fuel modifier parameters are all coming in properly and correctly.


IF Island does decide to open this Friday for T&T, I plan on going. New Tach is installed along with the 80psi oil pressure gauge and sending unit. I was able to acquire a free HP laptop from one of my neighbors (fellow hot rodder with a mid 70's el camino project car) and we got it all setup with the sniper software. I will soon order the proper wire and dongle to connect the laptop to the ecm, but for now I am still removing the sim card from the handheld and putting it into the laptop.









also installed a 1/2" Phenolic carb spacer (4 hole) to get rid of the notorious "sniper whistle" under mid throttle.. and to keep engine heat soak off of the tbi/ecm. I've driven the car several times since and the whistle is gone, and there is a much less difference in heat soak up to the sniper. Might help a very little with some power too, but I didnt feel anything while street driving.




didn't like the black plastic look, so painted the sides






didnt want to run the risk of scratching the fancy air cleaner lid on the hood, so I decided to do some cutting and trimming for peace of mind.












Saturday, I am signed up for the Autocross event at MetLife stadium. It is the M.S.N.E. event. the S.C.C.A. event for sunday was sold out right away so I could not get registered for that. I have never done a MSNE event, but I don't expect it to be too different.
So, current plan are drag racing friday, autocross saturday. If there is no T&T friday night, perhaps I will go to T&T at Island on Sunday instead. Otherwise, there are some car cruises/gatherings on Sunday, so potentially, if all goes really relay well, I could possibly do Drag racing Friday, autox saturday, car show/cruise sunday.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

Well, quite a weekend. Did 2 of the 3 car events I was hoping to do.

Friday night Test and Tune at Island dragway = Yup
MSNE AutoCross at MetLife = Yup
Car Show in Wayne = No, it was canceled. instead took wife to Rita's for a treat with the car



-Test and Tune at Island had a good amount of cars there, which was good to see. I brought the new-to-me laptop to check datalogs and tune files in between runs. The D/A that evening was in the 1400-1900 range. Made 5 passes total. 12.45, 12.12, 12.16, 12.11, and 12.07. The car seems to launch better from an idle, instead from revving it up to 2,000 rpm and leaving. Getting more consistent with shifting at 6,000-6,100 now with the new tach. I shift into 3rd gear just before half track, and the rest of the pass becomes boring. Played with adding timing advance a degree at a time in between each run. I know that my MPH would show an improvement with timing changes, and E.t. is more about shifting and being quick out of the hole. Gotta work on somethign to liven up 3rd gear. Got home after midnight and parked the car. Installed the front sway bar and replaced the Drag radials with my street/autocross wheels. Bed around 3 am
- Woke up 6 am and headed over to MetLife stadium for the MSNE event. Large/long course. Car did well, but it is immediately noticeable that I will need to re-learn how to throw the car around corners better now with the new powertrain. Lots of spinning at part throttle, so I had settle for the fact that light throttle exiting turns was the way to go, or else it would simply fishtail. Many experienced autocross members complimented the car but everyone made it a huge point to tell me that I need better tires without a doubt. In the last 3 runs, my power steering was not there at low rpm's. That made it quite more of a challenge to make sharp turns with no power steering. I wish I had in car video of me wrestling with the wheel. It was dry all day so the cars in the first two run groups had nice pavement; however, it did rain slightly during runs 3,4,5 which was just after I began to learn the course! It rained a LOT when i was packing up the car and I didnt have time to examine the power steering belt/pump so i just drove home in traffic, in the rain.
-Unpacked the car and cleaned it all up nicely in the hoped of going to the TriCounty Car show in Wayne for Sunday, only to find out later on when I looked online, that the car show was canceled due to Covid. Sunday I took the wife out to Ritas in Flanders with the car and the power steering is still not-there at low rpms. will examine it this week, pump was brand new in april (see my posts from then).






Photo album from Island ->
-also, I see one or two people who appear to be track staff or similar taking photos while doing recent T&T events at Island. However, nowhere on their website or their facebook page can I find out info about who the person is, or how to get one of their action photos? Anyone know? I tried emailing Island and also left a voicemail asking for info, but no return call. Any ideas?




thehazguy !!












AutoX photos:





ride home:






Videos:
I gotta get better at having the desire to make better videos. I don't know the first thing about editing, or changing camera angles, or any of that. So, all the videos are from the same windshield viewpoint, which really doesn't capture the amount of sliding I was dealing with on the autocross.


Drag racing videos:

Pass 1: 12.454 at 108.30mph
in car: trackside:
Pass 2: 12.124 at 112.46mph
in car: trackside:
Pass 3: 12.164 @ 112.03
in car:
Pass 4: 12.113 at 112.50mph
in car:
Pass 5: 12.074 at 113.08 mph best pass of the night and my personal best also
in car:





MSNE AutoX videos:
run 1: 83.085 seconds

run 2: 80.171 seconds

run 3: 77.570 seconds

run 4: 999.999 ran off course (missed one gate)

run 5: 76.519 seconds

run 6: 76.022 seconds


run 7: 82.887 seconds (spun out 360deg and continued on)

a few very short video clips a friend took as I was learning the course during run 1 and 2, right before it started to rain.







nitty gritty details: I checked plugs 1 and 2 in between each round and looking for signs of pre-ignition. I also looked for spikes on the rpm trace of the datalog. Seeing no issues at all, I added spark in. Looking at the 2D ignition table, I changed spark a degree upward in those cells from the 32 range, on up to right at 36 deg advance. Still not seeing that much of an improvement in mph or any numbers on the datalogs.
- also, my VE table (CL comp and learn) has now gone down from last time I did 1/4 mile passes on June 6. after applying learn to that table I was in the 117 range for peak VE numbers. now I am back down to the 112 range. I find this odd. Learn numbers are in the low single digits on that part of the graph. Confusing to me. I can post or link datalogs and tune files if someone was curious to take a peek.



Overall:
had a ton of fun. would have loved to go to a car show Sunday and bring home a trophy, but oh well, I couldn't change the fact that it was canceled. 138 miles on the car with 5 drag strip passes, 7 autocross runs, and some ice cream with the wife. No fluid leaks, no odd noises, just a power steering problem, and apparently I have one of the bulbs burned out in the center brake light from what I cans see in the action shot photos. Multi-purpose street car.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

There was one guy who was taking a ton of photos during the autocross, and he uploaded like 3,000 of them to this site-> https://photos.google.com/share/AF1Q...RIOGtpZEoyQkNB Looks like he edited them or added filters. I put them into a photo album with the photos I took with my phone at the event. my album->
his:

MDDAWG

I'm running a very similar set up as yours albeit not quite as clean under hood. Question is with all your track time cruising etc. was wondering if you have any overheating problems. My car does have a/c but I don't run it often , I have a Dewitts 2 core 1 inch tube radiator and stock dual cooling fans, on a 85 degree day I can get up to 200+ without the a/c on. Just wonder what your experience has been. By the way enjoy your documentation , sounds like a fun weekend. Be nice to see you get in the 11's, Mike

skinny z

12 ohs! Nice and close. Decent and consistent 60's too. You gotta think that with the torque of the 406, there's something to be gained there. Like you, I found better response from the converter by letting it flash from an idle but I know if I could leave at 3500 foot braking, I'd have a much improved ET. I just don't have the converter for it even if it looks to flash to 4000 judging by my dyno videos. Personal best on the 60' is 1.7 flat.

Well done. Nobody can say that you don't get out there and drive.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

MDDAWG: in all honesty, I am very suprised and impressed at the temperature control this setup has. In the 1,600 miles I have now put onthe engine (including racing and such) I have only ever seen the temp ever get above 200 deg twice. That was during one of the recent parades/cruises where a line of 200 cars got stuck in a series of traffic lights for a good 25 minutes and it was a hot day; temp got up to 204 deg. Thats the honest truth. I hardly ever see Fan #2 come on. Fan #1 seems to do the job of bringing temps down from 195 to 170 in a rather speedy fashion too. I have no shroud, and its that Champion 2 core aluminum radiator with 1 inch tubes, with holley sniper controlling the 2 oem style dual puller fans. I run the Evans waterless coolant and a Meziere 160 deg thermostat, which according to all of my holley datalogs, opens exactly at 160-161 deg. very cool. also, of course, stock air damn is in place, and I have the fiberglass cowl hood. I am super happy that I have not run into cooling/temp issues. I do not have A/c, but you can tell from the photos! haha

SkinnyZ: yup. I was happy to hit a 12.0. They quest for 11's continues. I have been curious about the launch myself actually... since I cant see whats going on, but I can feel that it is hooking and the MT ET Streets are not spinning. thats a win there; very glad I got these tires. . But I am seeing some 1.70s on the 60 foot now, and hoping to bring that down a little bit more. I mostly have always revved-up to 2,000 and left. I think only on pass 5 of the Friday session I left at a lower 1,100 rpm.. not from a true 900 rpm idle. and on that pass it did the same 1.70 which was cool, but it actually felt better in the seat. You think my e.t.s and 60ft would be slower if I left from a dead idle and let it flash then? I can feel the nose come upwards a bit, but that 60ft seems very close to some other 60fts when leaving at a "higher rpm". I am hoping that the track's photographer was present and taking photos on Friday night, because I would love to see them. I found the photo album he posted from my June 6 TT event, and he got a few shots, but I am behind the wall and part of the car is obscured. The tires are hooking, and the removed front sway bar is helping too. I had middle settings on both front struts and rear shocks that day (June 6).. but this Friday I had the fronts on a middle setting and tighter in the rear (koni yellows, are only single adjustable).
-even though it would hurt my E.T., I am wondering if I could "waste" a pass next time and set the rear shocks very low and the front ones high, and maybe just maybe get a little air under the front driver's tire for a photo? think its possible? aside from struts/shocks what else could I temporarily change in order to possibly yank a tire up for a pass, and then change back in order to make a quicker pass? leave off a low idle ?
or am I too far into the "wishful thinking zone" and I don't stand a chance of pulling a wheel up before I pipe in the nitrous to this car?

here is his photos from 3 weeks ago:
(my 60fts that day were: 1.88, 1.79,1.78, 1.80, 2.08, 1.78, 1.76, 1.73, 1.73, 1.73, 1.76) pretty certain I was leaving from a 1800-2200 rpm launch that day.








If he did take photos from friday, I ill look at them too, but I was in the far lane for 4 out of 5 passes....
(but my 60ft and launches were 1.75, 1.70, 1.72, 1.72, and 1.70

skinny z

From those pictures it doesn't appear that the car is squatting over the rear tires. Again it's difficult to tell but the front extension doesn't look bad either. If the car stays "up on it's toes" past the 60' then you probably couldn't ask for much more from the suspension. Some video would tell the tale for certain.

As for leaving from a dead idle, reaction time notwithstanding, it's been said that's when the highest stall is realized for those of us who foot brake. About the only thing more we could do is get more involved with the converter selection. You've probably posted previously but what is your converter? And a question further to that, how is it zipping around the autocross with a high stall automatic? I would imagine it builds a lot of heat into the transmission.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

yea, maybe I will soften the rear shocks even more next time to get it to squat more in the rears? Is that all I would change? My LCAS are at the lowest setting and I am happy with the rear tire pressure in the 19psi range. to get the rear to squat more, what else would I do? again, this might only be fore a 1 or 2 pass photo-op to hang a front wheel up an inch off the ground, but.. I can't think of anything heavy to remove from the front, so what else could I do?

As for the converter, Dana from proBuilt Automatics has always recommended Edge Racing converters, and back in February I spoke with Andre at Edge Racing, and gave him teh car specs, cam specs, and desired purpose of the car, including that I would certainly be pumping a 200 nitrous shot through it later on and we spec'd out a 9.5" converter with a 3,400 rpm stall and an internal anti-balooning plate. Seems to work well but to me it feels loose while street driving? is it supposed to? Also, on the autocross, I was never really in the engines powerband, so that converter wasn't helping much. I was pretty much just in 2nd gear the whole time between 2,000 and 4,500 rpm; I wil look at some of the datalogs. I have a transmission temperature gauge and it got up to about 190-195 on the gauge after the 7 runs (which were all within an hours time).

skinny z

The idea is to get the rear end not to squat. A typical drag shock setting arrangement has been around a 90/10 front and 50/50 rear for as long as I can remember. Keep the rear stiff and square and let the front extend and stay up. You don't want the body to drop over the tires effectively unloading them. So from your pictures, and with no obvious wheel spin, I'd say you're there. If the tendency is for the car to twist out of groove, then some rear bias might be needed. I use air bags to achieve this and pre-load the right side by about 15-20 PSI over the left. It helps the car to track straight when leaving. Otherwise I tend to drift towards the right side guardrail.

As for converters, loose is relative I suppose. I've a TCI 10" that's advertised to stall at 2000 RPM over stock. So, 3000-3500 maybe. That said, cruising around town at 30-40 MPH doesn't build a lot of revs. Kind of stays less than 2000 RPM with steady throttle. If I ease into it, the revs outpace the acceleration of the car but it catches up quickly. As for your stall and the on track performance, if nitrous wasn't in your future I'd think that Edge might have built a little more stall into yours. But with the NO2 hit, it'll flash plenty high I'm sure. The autocross is a different matter altogether. I would think that in my own situation I'd have trouble with RPM too. I'd want to be 3500-5500 for best power but that's beyond the converter stall and would mean shifting 1st to 2nd and back. Probably not the best thing to do to an automatic on a regular basis (although I'm sure plenty do).

The trans temperature gauge is an excellent idea. Something I'll incorporate into the next build.

Quick question: What's your RPM at the end of the 1/4?

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

SkinnyZ: ah, interesting. ok yes I've heard about the 90/10 drag shocks. unfortunately with the koni yellows I have, I only have a single form of adjustment. as it is set now, i am really happy with it so it will probably stay that way, unless I try to make use of a photo opportunity and lift a whee l for a single pass. would I soften both the front and rear for that photo? Also, ok, , since I have no sign of wheel spin, and I am thrilled to say that every launch since I started using the drag radials, has gone dead straight. so, luckily I currently don't have to make any steering compensation or suspension changes like you mentioned with air bags.


yea, I certainly will be flowign some nitrous to the engine, that will be added this winter along with a roll bar and probably some bigger exhaust. so I made sure to tell Edge racing to keep the nitrous in mind when building the converter. Yea, for autocross I kept it in 2nd and didn't downshift, so I was certainly out of my powerband. bummer.

I looked at my datalogs from Friday night and I am crossing the finish line around 5,500-5,600rpm which is a bit below my peak hp range, but I am leaving the rear gear ratio as it is. Moser build me a great rear and I have no intention of doing changes to it. I would love to find a way to make my 3rd gear pull better. I am "bored" in 3rd gear which is the whole second half of the track.




Steering :
ugh, I think I might have hurt the power steering pump during autocross. This power steering pump I installed back in mid April and it has only about 800 miles on it. My run group in autocross got all 7 runs done within an hour. I knew the pump would get hot, but with all the other autocross I've done, my old oem pump got hot too but never failed or quit on me. During run 4 or 5 I remember feeling power steering disappear as I went to make a sharp right hand turn. power steering seemed to work while I was under throttle, but if I was off the throttle it was not there. this was the same the rest of the day. so that, plus the slight rain, made getting around the course quite a challenge. I thought maybe the belt got loose and i planned on fixing it after, but that is when it began pouring rain. I hoped that it would return to normal after the system cooled down.

So i checked it the next day and tightened the belt. still no power steering at low rpm. checked it again today, tried a new belt, no luck,. decided to scuff up the inside groove of the power steering pulley in case the belt was slipping inside the groove. no change. The general consensus from a few people is that it got too hot, and will never come back. I agree, but I am hoping it is not the case.

If I have to replace the pump, I don't want to go with a gen 2 pump. I don't like the look and underhood appearance is important to me. I know I need an in-line cooler. I am curious about what to do for a pump that keeps the look of the pump I have now. see photos a few pages back. That is the look I want. Would like to remedy this soon, especially with the UMI autocross even coming up (which even though i am registered, I might have a conflict and have to bail out, which would suck)

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

- I have contacted the company that I bought the ps pump from in April and we are trying to work something out to get a fair priced replacement. I know for SURE I am adding a fluid cooler for the power steering fluid on the low-pressure line. I will take some measurements tomorrow for a cooler and order it soon. tube and fin style I am thinking. However, If the company is willing to send me a replacement pump, or discounted price pump of the exact same model, I will simply go that route for now and ensure I have the large fluid cooler installed. The UMI autocross event is only 16 days away, so i dont want to leave this till last minute.



Which brings me to my other topic, drag racing.
I am still hopeful to put this car into the high 11's N/A this year. Still working out some tuning stuff, and wayfast84 said he is willing to let me borrow some front "skinnies". I am also still hopeful to change the shocks and suspension around to pull a small wheelie on one of the passes where I wont be gunning for an 11. However, I am not sure if I will be taking the car to the dragstrip in the next two weekends prior to the UMI autocross. Not sure if thats a smart move.

Anyways, I would love to borrow wayfast's drag skinnies, but I also think its a good idea to start looking around for a cheap used set in case he isn't available on one of the days I plan to go to the track. I tried a bunch a searching online classifieds, and nothing can be found locally on ebay, craigslist, even racingjunk etc. Pop-up ads from the big performance companies just fill up the search results, all wanting me to buy new ones.
-So if anyone knows someone who would be willing to loan, rent, or sell me a "Cheap" pair of skinnies for the rest of the year, let me know. I am in Northern New Jersey

I tried to do some research here on thirdgen.org and on the corvette forum about what skinnies would fit. I run the C4-HD brake upgrade kit from Ed Miller flynbye, so the rotor is 13" diameter and the caliper adds some meat back there too. I have never dabbled with skinnies up front, so I don't know how tight backspacing measurements can be compared to a "normal" wheel. Some of the corvette guys use a 15" diameter wheel with a 5/16" spacer, and others don't need to do anything. Just trying to plan ahead and think of everything I can, before trying to bolt up a set and finding out they wont work. thoughts?

I eventually want to get a full set of 4 when it comes to drag wheels. something nice for the car, but with me running my old iroc wheels and MT ET street's out back for this year, I can be ok to sacrifice the car's looks for a used-but-functional set of skinnies which might help get me into the 11's and help to get a wheelie photo.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

good and bad update:



the good:

-got about 1,500 miles on the engine now and decided to do an oil change since I last did the oil change at 500 miles on the new engine. my 1,000 mile Oil looked great when it came out and there was barely even anything to wipe off from the magnetic drain plug. I cut open the oil filter and the filter element looked good as well. nice.














- greased the front and rear suspension. checked bolts on exhaust, converter, driveshaft, rear, suspension, brakes, etc.
- getting car prepped for the big UMI auto-X in ten days. I always try to check bolts and brackets. all bolts and hardware were good. (except one, see below)



The company who sold me the power steering pump in April was kind enough to send me a FREE replacement pump. They agreed, that the pump should have lasted longer than a few months and only 4 autocross runs. I thanked them for this and am very appreciative. I also ordered a power steering cooler (trans fluid cooler). I debated what type of cooler to put in the system, either tube and fin, stacked plate, or in-line heat-sink. I also had to figure out where I wanted to mount it for functionality, aesthetics, and so forth. I am unwilling to mount ANYTHING in front of the radiator, so a cooler that relied primarily on actual airflow to cool it was not going to happen. I read a bunch about the heat-sink style and lots of people have good luck with the in-line aluminum style ones. they are used for cooling transmission fluid and on their own can dissipate heat by design if you are sitting still or there is minimal high speed air-flow (like in auto-cross!). So I bought a DeRale one and mounted it in place of part of the return line (low-pressure line) on the factory cooling loop. securely mounted it under the radiator and behind the plastic air- dam. again, I did not want anything impeding the airflow to the radiator since my current engine cooling system is working excellent. I flared the ends of the metal tube to keep the hose clamps secure. had a small leak at the port at the back of the pump, and I tightened it so it appears to be stopped, but I will check on it again next time i drive the car.















bought a shift light to help with more consistent shifts instead of relying on watching the tach needle sweep. the new tach is dead-on accurate, but it is slower in response tot he digital readings of the sniper handheld. so I think a small compact shift light will help me improve me shift consistency. Did not hook it up yet though...









the Bad:

bought a fuel pressure gauge to ensure that I have adequate fuel pressure at the sniper tbi. Went with the Aeromotive 0-100 psi liquid filled gauge. Also got an earls -8 fitting to hold it. Since aesthetics matter to me I wanted the gauge to be "clocked" correctly and face straight up. unfortunately despite using teflon PASTE the gauge was only able to face straight up when it was not fully tightened (leaked drips). when tightened up enough where it would not leak anymore, it was facing the 5:00 position so basically up-side-down. and this was real tight. if I cranked it anymore I am certain I would crack the aluminum of the fitting. I used teflon paste. Can i use the YELLOW teflon tape instead since it is "ok with fuel" when the white tape is not? fyi, the pressure gauge did read 61 psi which is basically right where the sniper's regulator is supposed to be set (58.5-60psi). while this fuel pressure gauge isn't integral for the car to run, it was nice to finally know that my fuel psi is correct. some people recommend not leaving a fuel pressure gauge attached to the engine due to potential leaks, so I guess I could leave it off and only put it on for future troubleshooting?. Kinda want to have it installed permanently, but it cant be facing upside down and obviously cant leak fuel!



while doing my bolt check, I noticed that one of the 3 outer bolts that hold the front pulley to the engine balancer was GONE!. another one was loose. the center one was tight, but I had a WOW moment. I retightened the loose bolt and tried to replace the missing bolt with one I had in my bin. it was too long, so intead of just setting some washers under it, I cut it down and cleaned up the threads. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think it is a 3/8" fine thread bolt?? despite my best efforts I could not get my shortened 3/8" bolt to grab onto the threads. Maybe I will try to buy a proper bolt or a new shorter one. I have a tap and die set, but not for fine threaded bolts. suggestions? Also, these were installed with red-locktite back in february...so ?


...and lastly....
Initally, was having an easy afternoon working slow and unhurried for most of the afternoon. the leaky ps fitting and leak in the fuel fitting , along with the barrage of curious and energetic neighbors, me skipping lunch, and working with the garage door open which caused the sun light to mess with my view, caused me to make a bone-head mistake. Man, if I only had taken a small pause to check that everything was absolutely clear from under the car like I usually do, I would have noticed that the wood blocking I usually put under the tires, was not fully clear. so, when I let the car down with the jack, the passenger side rocker panel was right there.. and it wasn't happy to meet the wood blocks. crack! Damn, just 2 weeks prior to the UMI event, and right before the car show season also begins, I go and do this. Ugh. I know its not repairable, so I am going to look for a replacement GFX locally. I'll probably bodywork it and paint it here at my house; anyone know where to pick one up before I go making a "parts wanted" post in the classifieds?

skinny z

That truly sucks having smashed the GFX. I did just that on one of the Camaros, except in my case it was in a parking lot and I misjudged a curb, went over it with the left rear tire and landed on the skirt. I had a few spares in the rafters of the shop at that time though. Now I drive a Coupe. No GFX.
IIRC my lower pulley bolts are 3/8"-24. That said, one of my SBC rebuild books specs it at 3/8"-16. So I suppose the only way to find out is to try both.
As for the fuel pressure gauge, do these people that suggest you disconnect it also disconnect their fuel lines when they park their cars. The EFI could leak too! Mine is connected full time and is mounted in the cowl hood opening so I can watch it along with the dash mounted gauges.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

skinny: yea, it was like a punch in the gut when I saw what happened. I have a NjJ camaro guy who has one that has some minor repair work needed on it, so i might take him up on the offer of getting it for free. I doubt I would get it painted properly in time for next weekend. So,for now I put some red duct tape on the area and it blends in well enough, so I might keep it this way until UMI is over with....but my spirit is still crushed! That stinks about you crushing your GFX long ago, but I guess its better than banging up a fender or a nose or door.


I took the car over to the local cruise-night tonight and the new pump is working great. I will monitor temps while at UMI but the fluid cooler itself is getting hot to the touch and the fluid line directly after it is just slightly warm to the touch, so it seems to be doing its job.


I am going to order a set of 3 ARP crank pulley bolts from Summit racing. I will install one bolt at a time on the pulley using red locktite and torqued to spec. going forward I will make it a frequent habit to visually/physically check on the bolts. I think they bolts are the 3/8"-24 , so these:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/a...make/chevrolet


as for the fuel pressure gauge. I think over the years enough people have had a problem with the gauge internals failing and causing a leak of fuel from the bezzle or the gauge face, that they have wrote about it on the internet. I know for sure I have seen so many cars at shows, races, events that have a pressure gauge mounted under the hood, so I feel confident enough putting one in.
I was thinking, since the gauge is only ever going to be installed to this specific exact -8 fitting, and wont ever need to be removed or rotated.... perhaps I can JB-weld it in place where it is clocked/facing the correct orientation. JB-weld is perfectly safe for fuel, and will cure nicely, locking the gauge in place with no leaks. thoughts? its not that I don't want to buy another fitting, but my guess is that if I bought another fitting, the gauge would just wind up pointing in the same 5:00 orientation and I would have wasted my time and money to wind up with the same result. after further research, yellow teflon tape is not an option I want to try. I might retry it one more time with the PTFE sealant, but if not, I might just neatly do a JB-weld assembly of the gauge to the npt fitting port.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

got the fuel pressure gauge installed in the fitting and oriented straight up like I wanted. some Jb-weld on the threads and let it cure. safe for fuel.









Was going to order the crank pulley bolts from Summit, but since I was running errands near Rockaway, I stopped at Bruce's Speed Shop and they had one pack left on the rack. Got them installed with red-lock-tite and will continue to check on them often. I will probably paint mark them. Would really love to find a nicer aluminum crank pulley instead of the UGLY painted stock steel one, but no need to do that now. maybe winter time

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

car is packed up and ready to roll out tomorrow for the 4 hour drive to UMI motorsports park/and the Holiday Inn for the two day UMI autocross event. I tend to overpack a lot of tools and supplies, so the car is pretty weighted down.

unfortunately I didn't have money in the spending budget this year for a really good set of autocross tires. with my wheel size I only have a few options, and I am probably eventually going to go with the Falken Azenis RT615K+ tires. I am going to speak to a lot of people at the event about tires and this will help me eventually make my decision... but for this year, these tires are going to be my weak-point. They are 5 years old and a 300 treadwear Nitto 555 set of tires. . its what I got, and I'll do my best to make them work good I hope. However, I am also very used to them since I've done about 6 autoX events with them, so there wont be any on-track surprises or learning with a new set of tires.

Aside from that, the car is ready. that fuel pressure gauge setup is off/removed, and I actually called summit and they are going to send me a replacement gauge and replacement fitting for free, because I noticed that the on/off/on/off/tightening I had done caused the gauge to leak some glycerin! I am sending the old ones back for a free swap. they were very helpful on the phone.


I know there are a few TGO members coming. should be a great time!!

skinny z

I'm a little envious of your trip. Racing for me on any level is still a year away.
Good luck. Have fun.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

Another great event completed!



Short Version:

Left mid morning on Thursday for the 230 mile drive out to the event. Thursday night we went to the track and got our registration packets and went through tech. A lot more people took their cars on trailers this year it seemed. Pizza dinner provided by UMI at the track and then parking lot party at the hotel at night. Friday Autocross started around 9am after the drivers meeting. I was in run group 1. I had difficulty fighting the car to react how I wanted it to react despite tire pressure changes, strut/shock changes, and varying between which gear I wanted to be in for which part of the course). We all got 7 runs on Friday. I tagged some cones, slid the car around more than needed and overall it just wasn’t my best day. UMI provided lunch and at night they had food trucks, a local country singer, a bonfire, and parking lot party. Saturday I did my best to focus and made a few runs with similar times to my best times of Friday afternoon. Then, I decided that I would crank up some more rear brake pressure to maybe keep the car more settled and not nose dive/push so much. This seemed to work and I wish I had done it sooner. The afternoon I made a string of mid-48 second runs and I was happy with that. Loaded up the car with my 300+ pounds of gear and made the long drive home. Only had one mechanical gremlin the whole weekend, and that is my fuel pump/tank got way too hot during the ride home, but I got that solved. My biggest takeaway was that I need to be more forceful and snappy with steering inputs. With this new build I am hesitant to “know” the car yet, so that’s why I wasn’t so direct and crisp. I also really don’t trust these 5 year old hard rubber street tires to do what I want them to do, and for good reason.. because on many occasions they just don’t grip and the car slides right, left, and forward too much. I will keep these nitto 555s for the rest of this year, but next year I will have a set of BFG rivals, Falken Azenis, or Bridgestone RE71rs for my current 18” wheels. Overall, super fun weekend. Great weather, food, people, lots of laughs and excitement.

















Longer version:

Packed up the car on Wednesday with a ton of tools, parts, fluids, floor jack, jack stands, spare wheel and tire, helmet, clothes, laptop, and so forth. Cranked up the rear shocks to the max to keep the tires off the inner fenders if I hit a huge bump on the highway at speed (this happened last year and I got a few small slices in the pass side tire). Left for PA mid morning on Thursday so traffic was light and sunglare was low. The directions are super easy. Just get on rt 80 from my neighborhood, take it for 220+ miles and get off at the exit, two left turns and I am in the hotel parking lot. Saw a few fellow UMI participants during the drive. After checking into the hotel we headed over to the track to get our registration packets, stickers, and to go through tech inspection. We got to walk the course too, so I did that twice. UMI had pizza for dinner as more and more people arrived and unloaded their cars from trailers. There was definitely a lot more cars coming on trailers this year; lots and lots of high caliber cars. Party in the parking lot at night.

Friday I drove the car over to the track and we started racing around 9am after the usual drivers meeting and national anthem. There were 120 vehicles registered for the event and I think 110 or so showed up. They split the field into 3 run groups just based on where you parked. However the vehicles are classed into 4 different categories: “vintage” “mid-muscle” “modern-muscle” and 2 seater”. I was in mid-muscle. None of this mattered to me, as I had no competitive expectations and no lofty dreams of being anywhere near the top of any class or overall, I just hoped to finish in the top 75th percentile.































Day1:



Run 1: Set front tires to 35psi and rears to 28psi. front struts to 4/5 tightness and rear shocks to 2/5.

- The car slid/pushed when entering the infield at one point, enough for me to go off course

- So I got a DNF but ran 60.510 seconds while figuring out the rest of the course






Run 2: lowered the front tire pressure to 32. Kept the rear psi and struts/shocks the same

- Decided to hold the car in 1st gear on the front stretch so I was on the rev limiter for a bit, but had more power in 1st gear in the infield. turned out to cause more sliding though

- Ran a 51.864






Break for other run groups to make laps



Run 3: Front tires re-set at 32 psi and rear set to 28. Softened front struts to 3/5 and kept rears at 2/5

- Tried leaving the car in 2nd gear and not shifting at all. Causing it to be slower in the infield, but less blazing of the tires. I got confused at the course layout in corn-dog corner and didnt make the left in time.

- Ran a 54.121






Run 4: Front tires to 32.0 rear at 28.0 struts 3/5 shocks 2/5

- 1st gear and 2nd gear on the track and then downshifted to 1st gear for the infield. Tires can’t grip when heavy on the throttle in 1st so I ran through some infield cones again. decided to stay in 2nd gear from now on

- Got a DNF but ran a 54.148






Run 5: Lowered front struts to 2/5 rears at 2/5 also tire pressure same

- Clean run, no cones. 50.322






Break for lunch and other run groups to make laps. Burgers and lunch stuff provided by UMI





Run 6: 30psi front and 28 psi rear

- A Nj camaro buddy joined me for a ride along (after I just did a ride along in his car moments prior). He told me that I certainly need to be more quick and demanding with my steering inputs. Left it in 2nd gear for the whole run.

- My best run of the day, but apparently, I hit a cone that both he and I didn’t realize I hit, so yea

- 48.670 with +1 cone








Chatted with a lot of people throughout the day and talked to them about my options for better tires. Talked to the guys at Turn-One steering about my previous power steering pump issues and they had some recommendations for me in case my current (new) setup with the new pump and the new cooler gave me any problems this event or in the future. ( Which it didn’t!! ) but it was good to talk to them about future upgrades and such. Went back to the hotel for a shower and then back to the track for food from the food trucks, groups of people hanging out partying, a live country singer, fire pit, etc. This part of the event drew a good amount of locals from the community so that was good for the track and for business.





Day 2, Saturday.



Run 7: Front tires 30 rears 27.5 shocks struts left the same at 2/5 and 2/5

- Car pushed straight when I wanted to turn right, right after the infield loop. so my buddy instructed me how to take this corner better and I am glad to have listened to him.

- Ran a 50.548 with +2 cones






Run 8: no changes to tires or shocks

- Clean run, no cones, I just get impatient while “lugging” through the infield at low rpms in 2nd gear.. but that keeps the car from sliding around and from blazing the tires loose so it’s the best manner to navigate the infield by.

- Ran a 50.517 clean






Break





Run 9: no changes, clean run minor sliding, still nose diving though.

- Ran a 50.320




Run 10: 31 psi front, 28 psi rear shocks struts still the same 2/5 and 2/5

- Growing frustrated at the nosediving all weekend, I decided to crank up (in) the rear brake line proportioning valve 1 full turn. This seemed to help a bit actually.

- Ran a 48.767 finally under 50.00 !








Break for lunch





Run 11: tires and shocks the same, added a ½ more turn in on the prop-valve.

- Slid into the cone wall just approaching corn-dog corner, I think it was just me being too aggressive, and not the cars fault. you can see the cone-person flee for safety as I drift towards him!

- Got a DNF with a 57.376 time






Run 12: tires and shocks same my buddy Bill came along for the ride again

- 48.537 clean run








Break





Run 13: Front tires 30 psi rear 28 psi lowered both the front and rear struts/shocks to 1/5

- 48.517 clean run and my best run of the weekend.

My GoPro battery died 6 seconds into this run, so there is no video of it.







Had a much better second day than Day 1. Finished a little lower overall than I expected to finish when I arrived at the event. Would have liked to be in the top 80 or so, but live and learn. The track’s computer timing program seemed to have a glitch, that even though my correct times are displayed in the details when you click my name/number, the statistics show me finishing in 75th place with a time of 46.387 , right below Val Pichette and Brian Coyle. Now, Obviously anyone and everyone knows that is completely outlandish and impossible for me to be on that level. So instead, If I take my best time of 48.517 (run 13) and find where that fits into the list, it puts me directly below my buddy Scott and his worked up 2nd gen camaro, (and who was just 0.05x seconds faster than me). I am content with that. Packed up the hot car with my tremendous amount of gear and watched the awards ceremony. Afterwards, headed out for the ride home.



































The ride home was super smooth sailing aside from one single mechanical issue; hot fuel tank. I have had an issue before with heat/pressure in the tank, but it never had caused the pump to shut off. So, I was about 45 minutes into the ride home and everything was perfect. All gauges had great readings. I had the converter locked and I was cruising on rt 80 when all of a sudden I felt a stumble and looked at the gauges to see the AFR go way lean just as the motor shut off. I coasted to the “shoulder” which was pretty tight at this stretch of roadway. Tried to crank it, but no fire up. Started thinking and learned the fuel pump wasn’t “priming” when I put the key on. Hilariously, that fuel pressure gauge I had installed at the sniper last week, (and subsequently REMOVED because it was leaking just two days prior to leaving for UMI) would have come in super freaking handy at this moment int time!!! Anyways I cracked open the fuel feed line fitting at the sniper and didn’t have good fuel pressure. I then thought, hmm, lets open the gas cap. It opened with a huge blast of super hot vapor. Hot as in real hot. As I left het cap off for the tank to breathe, I got under the car and felt the tank, and it was scalding hot. I also noticed that my muffler and the heat shield were pressed really tight together and also seemed to be really close, if not touching the fuel tank. I am certain the muffler heat soaked the tank and fuel and pump. I also opened the trunk and felt the carpet on the trunk’s hump and it was way hot. I let it cool down for 7-8 minutes and tried again. It fired up and ran. I took the next exit and got some fresh fuel and had zero problems the rest of the trip. I am thinking the heat soak from the day of track action and the weight of all my gear in the trunk was the cause, as even though I have had fuel tank pressure before, it has never been this excessive with pressure and heat.















The highway driving and normal road driving with this car is phenomenal. The engine loves to run between 179-185 on the highway, and with the converter locked it does 80-82 mph at 2,400 rpms. Trans temp stays right at 160 deg. According to my “learn values” on the sniper data the tune is really on point for drivability. I plan on looking at the datalogs from the autocross later on this week and that will help me refine my AE acceleration enrichment based on the TPS RoC and other values that I see. Its probably really close to perfect, but I will examine the data. Then I plan on locking in the learn limits of the tune file and calling it good.





All in all, a super fun weekend and event. 529 miles of driving with 2 days of autocross action. It is one of my car highlight events for the year.









I am working on compiling the 10-12 video clips I took into a single video, but having problems with the computer still.

-There will be official re-cap videos and photos coming from UMI and other media outlets, I'll probably post those in the separate UMI thread I created. which is here: https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/orga...vent-july.html

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

I think my first attempt at fixing it will be trying a new vented gas cap. AC delco GT195 was recommended to me, and I have also seen some other fully vented ones. If that does not solve the issue, I will try a small little breather and connect it to the capped off evap tube by the axle. I'll get on this next week,.


On wednesday I picked up that front set of skinnies that a good friend of mine was selling. (see his classified ad). 15" JEGS SSR wheels with Mickey Thompson Sportsman SR tires. I drove over to his house and test fit them. the research I did on the corvette forum mentioned that I might need a small spacer, so I bought some in advance at Bruce's speed shop. Turns out I did need them! But the wheels fit and the price was very good.









I am still chasing that 11.999 second timeslip, so I am certain these will help get me there one day. I am also hoping to pull a small wheelie one day, so these will help with that too.
- Therefore I am going to head over to Island Dragway tomorrow for the Summit ET Raceday and enter into the Trophy class. there is no test and tune this weekend at Island, so the next best thing is this. I have never done a raceday event, so this is all new to me. The trophy class seems the easiest for a newbie like me to attempt ( https://www.islanddragway.com/6852-2/ ). Not sure if I will get that 11.999 tomorrow because of the weather, so I might plan on a slower dial in, but instead try to pop a wheelie in the process of running a slower e.t and dial in. If I can do both, that would be fantastic, but unlikely.









Put the drag radials on the car today, the new-to-me skinnies, front sway bar removed, took the seats and sound system out, kept my tools packed in the toolboxes from the UMI autocross, and checked the holley GCF files. I also went to the local quarry and weighed the car with all the seats out and skinnies on, and it weighed 3,320 without me in it, and weighed 3,500 with me in the car and full tank of fuel. My buddy Joe and I had weighed my existing 18" wheels (50 pounds) and the skinnies (35 pounds each).




I will get one (maybe 2) timeshot/test passes in the morning, and then 1pm is eliminations. I will probably get knocked out right away, but hopefully I can get either an 11 or a wheelie. I might even put some weight in the trunk, maybe, maybe not.

skinny z

If you can find half a tenth in the 60' and if the air is good you're in the 11's.
Traction. It's all about traction.
What RPM do you leave at?

MDDAWG

Enjoy your updates , on the tank venting I just put a small breathe on the factory vent line works great , no venting issues , running almost the same set up as you , good luck at the strip, like to see an 11

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

Thanks guys ! If the vented cap doesn’t do the job, I’ll do exactly that. A small breather on the evap line

i have been playing with what rpm to leave at. Looking at my data logs and my previous 60 foots, I seem to leave harder when I don’t revv up to 2,000 rpms (which is where the car creeps forward and rolls through the brakes). But unless I doing something wrong... my best and most aggressive launches have been from just a little but above idle. My idle is set to 920 and I’m leaving at 1,000 or 1,100 and just flooring it, letting the converter flash, which on my datalpgs, shows the converter flash right around 2,900 rpm

any thoughts?

advice for a new guy trying his first non-test-and-tune event ?

skinny z

From my experience...
Leaving off idle typically results in exactly what you're seeing. The highest stall is realized that way. The only better results are had with a transbrake.
Leaving off idle as opposed to leaving at maximum RPM footbraking will affect your reaction time. You'll have to adjust for that if you're going to be in a bracket race. The guys that are experienced will always cut a good light and that's where the race is won. Don't be surprised to see a lot of .00X. Or at the least .0xx. On a sportsman tree (3 yellows then green) the best advice I can offer, especially if you leave off idle, is to hit it when you see the last yellow come on. Maybe even before. The bulbs are .500 apart.

Here's my procedure:
Stage as shallow as possible. After pre-staging creep up and stop as soon as the stage bulb lights. Called shallow staging
Hold it there.
3rd yellow, nail it!

I footbrake so I leave later than I would if off idle. That's really just the amount of time it takes to mash the peddle from zero. If I'm already part way into the throttle then...well you can do the math. It takes less time but not much.
With the shallow stage you have more rollout. That's the difference between the time you start to move and the time when you trip the start timer. You'd be surprised how early you can pin it and not red light. Especially off idle. Your car is already moving before the count begins.
If you want to go rounds, forget about the 11 second thing. Forget about the wheelie. You'll have a couple of test passes to gauge the traction and learn the tree. The other stuff can come at a test and tune. Unless you really don't care. Try cutting a good light. If you do, people will notice. If they come up against you, they may be anxious and red light. Next round for you.

Good luck.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

thanks man, thanks a bunch. all of that makes sense. I am undecided on what I want to set as a goal for tomorrow. either to try to go a few rounds, or to try to run an 11, or to try to wheelie. no chance of doing all 3, or even two. honestly, in reality with me being this new, I'll probably choke and attain none of my possible goals, but I will decide tomorrow morning what my gameplan is. I have heard that they are only going to have time to give us 1 time-shot in the morning, so if that is true, there is the potential for my day to be really short!

I agree with you about shallow staging. If I were to go in and deep stage or even deeply regular stage, I would probably go red and be done. Also, about accounting for tire rollout. Thanks for the tips. I think I will leave off of a 1,100 "high-idle" or so, just barely on the throttle ad holding the brakes while leaving it in 1st gear. Also, even though I have installed the shift light, I have not used it for any drag passes, so I have no idea how quick I will be able to respond and shift after seeing the light, therefore I am not dialed in with the light yet. I have it set for 6,000 rpm to come on, so that I shift around 6,200 and my over-rev limiter set for 6,500. The 1->2 shift will happen quick so I have to be on the ball with that one; the 2-.3 shift will be just before the 8th mile mark and I will hopefully be able to nail that shift, if my light is dialed in and accurate to what the dash rpm and the holley rpm handheld say.

I will have to make sure I do a better burnout too. Not a John Force burnout, but I feel that I should be holding the burnout longer. In the past I have tried my line lock, but the car starts moving after about 3-4 seconds. I have also tried foot braking it with no line lock and this works better. I have tried having it in 1st gear and then shifting it into 2nd halfway through the burnout. I have also put it in 2nd and let the trans shift 1->2 during the burnout. With these MT ET streets, I have never noticed wheelspin, not once, but something in me is telling me to hold a longer burnout.

lots to keep in mind and I'll have to decide between going rounds, possibly attaining the thrill of a small wheelie, or trying to get into the 11's. The 11's seem unlikely on a hot summer day, but we shall see.

skinny z

My take on it?
You probably will pull a wheel on an 11 second pass. They go hand in hand with where you're at now. A tenth in the 60 is two tenths at the stripe remember.
But the summer air is another thing altogether. Racing in the heat of the Ontario summer (way back) when the DA was past 2500', seal level corrected for a couple of tenths. Keep that in mind. After the race, if you don't already have the info, go to DragTimes.com and check the DA on that day. Makes for interesting bench racing if nothing else.
Enjoy. I'm racing vicariously through you.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

cool man thanks. I have actually been using TRC app (That racing Channel app) on my phone to check and screenshot the DA, humidity, elevation, and temp, sometimes before each run. I have been keeping a log book too. Summit Racing has a drag racing log book for like $5 so its an easy way for me to keep all my info toghether, but I also keep a little mead notebook for notes and for autocross info. This way if I start getting forgetful, or can't remember what I set the shocks or tire psi at while doing UMI or something, I just check my notes. It is going to take me some time interpret the info but this way next year, I might be at that point where I can use my info for better. Some of my better passes in my previous outings this summer have said that with a corrected DA I would be in the 11.76-11.89 range at 115 mph. So that is promising. That is literally my goal for this car N/A.
For the wheelie pass (photo op mostly) I was going to put some weight in the trunk and leave the shocks and struts set very low. I chatted with a few people in person and on some PM's here about it, and my gearing and lack of transbrake are not optimal, but with soft struts and soft shocks and a recommended 100 pounds or so in the trunk, the wheelie could possibly happen. It will no doubt slow my car down and I'll keep in mind the rule of 100 pounds = a thenth at the stripe. If we get two morning time-shots, maybe I will make one for the possible wheelie photo, and then the second one for real. maybe. I'll probably decide at 9 am after I go through the gates and see how much activity there is at the track.

I had to race vicariously through this board and youtube for so many years when i just had a 305 in this car. I am finally getting to enjoy the thrill of some "fast " passes. but I know you will be back in action with your car soon enough! you know a ton of tech info and have had that car making passes for a long time. A little bit of down time is not too big of a deal. Hopefully its not many years of downtime though, since I know you want to be out there!

Jeremy Brown

putting nos in it is a bad idea there’s some other things that you can do for the boost. It looks like it has aluminum heads and unless your racing for 1000s of dollars each race all you will do is tear your engine up. Plan on quick changing parts between races if so. Good luck nice build

Jeremy Brown

your going to have to tune the car after your done or it won’t run right

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

thanks man, for sure I will have to re-tune it after the nitrous is in. the holley sniper unit has tables and provisions for a single stage of nitrous. I had the motor build to handle a 200 shot of nitrous. there is no way I am putting a blower or turbo on this car. I never want to open the hood and see all sorts of pipes, valves, intercoolers, wires all over the place. I only want a clean, simple, streamlined look under the hood of this car. If it gets anything, it gets nitrous. I already have half the nitrous setup in the car (bottle, bottle bracket, electronics, buttons) and I just have to install the solenoids and a wet-shot plate and tap into the fuel line. The nitrous will happen this upcoming winter and it will ONLY be used on the occasional track days. I used to go through about 8 full bottles of nitrous a year, for four years, spraying my 305 on the street. No need to spray on the street anymore, just at the track, so maybe 2-3 bottles a year? Its not a race car by any means. Just a "hot street car" and multi-use car. Thanks for the compliments and advice though. I honestly really do appreciate ANY and ALL feedback, advice, criticism, especially from the TGO community.


speaking of racing.. I went yesterday

Since there was no "test and tune" class this weekend I decided to enter the car into a small little trophy class instead of going into the sportsman classes. I was basically using the class to do test and tune, and I only got two passes total unfortunately. But my wife was away for the day and I just really wanted to go to the track. I checked the weather forecast and decided Saturday would be the best day because Sunday (today) looked like rain. and it turns out Island canceled the nostalgia drags today so I am glad I went Saturday.















I have never done any type of bracket racing; just previously did test and tune days. I knew there was a lot more involved in bracket racing, but I decided to give it a shot. Knowing the hot summer weather was not helpful with my quest for an 11 second pass, I decided to try to work on my reaction time, launch, and to finally get to test my new shift light. Lots of cars racing in different classes meant that we all only got one test pass or "timeshot". I decided that I would put a safe WOT ignition tune in the car and I loaded one that has my WOT set to only 35 deg. Knowing that I would run slower, I decided to see if I could get the car to maximize front end lift by putting a lot of weight in the rear. for my first pass I put 200 pounds of weight in the trunk's lower well! sounds crazy, but when I chatted with some experienced racers, they said that many of them had done this earlier in life and I shouldn't feel too dumb about experimenting with this. I also lowered both the front and rear struts/shocks to the lowest setting. Had the front skinnies set at 35psi and the rear drag radials at 19psi. Did a good 2 gear burnout. I wanted to see how the car would leave off of a "high idle" and while focusing on actually really trying to get a better reaction time. My previous reactions times recently are all over the place, because i had been concerned with other aspects of the car/pass. So I launched from an 1,100 rpm high-idle and the car hooked fine but I don't think it pulled a wheel. The track photographer who was there did not get a photo either. bummer. . I also wanted to see how dialed-in my new shift light was, so I didnt shift until I saw it light up at 6,100, and then as soon as that happened I quickly looked at the dash to see where the tach's needle was and THEN I shifted. this caused me to hit the rev limiter at 6,500 . did this same routine again for the 2-3 shift (tack bulb on->glance at dash tach->actually shift) . but I learned that I should slightly lower down the shift light's dial setting. ran a slow e.t. and got smoked by a modified Track-hawk. but my reaction time was somewhat good (for me) and there were no other issues. 12.418 at 110.08 mph. (remember 200 lbs in the trunk, hit revv limiter on both shifts, and a "safe" 35 deg WOT timing)




Since we only had that one time-shot to base our Dial-in for round 1 from, I kept the ECU tune the same, lowered the shift light rpm, and decided to put another 100 pounds in the trunk. so thats 300 lbs in the trunk total (bringing my car weight to 3,800 with me in it). it seems somewhat foolish, but I would rather experiment and try, instead of never trying and not knowing. I wrote a 12.45 dial on the window despite knowing the rule that 100 pounds will add a tenth to an e.t., but I planned on not tagging the rev limiter so I was ok with a 12.45 dial in. Welp, I got an unlucky draw against a guy who has a very dialed in car and is very consistent. So i got knocked out when he went 14.261 on his 14.26 dial in! However, the 300 pounds in the trunk is indeed getting the nose to lift, but again no track photographer (they took breaks because of the heat) so I can not verify if I am close to lifting a wheel yet or not. Honestly, I think I am not, but I am probably really close to having the drivers side front tire up high enough that is is just gliding on the track for a moment. the extra weight caused my pass to be slower, but I am fine with that. I was a little bit better on the tree with a .117 reaction time. But this is new to me and one day I will look back and laugh at my previous .4xx and .5xx reaction times. I later spoke to some drag racing veterans, about some tips and tricks on how to react/time a tree.

Anyways, I got knocked out in round 1, as expected. Only got two passes, but learned a ton from people and drove the car home with no issues. I feel that the adjustment on the shift light is pretty well set, so maybe 1 or 2 more passes and I will lock it in for good. Up to yesterday, I;'ve never had to react/shift from a shift light bulb, but I will get used to it soon I am sure. I plan on going to the Test and Tune this upcoming Sunday August 9th.


I took screenshots of the datalogs for my two passes. I am also pretty happy with the values in my LEARN table too. I know the extra weight in the trunk effected the load on the engine, so some numbers up top aren't really low, but I wont be loading hundreds of pounds of weights in the car for long, probably just experiment one more time if a track-photographer is there. could also try a go pro mounted low on the car facing the front drivers side tire.









Datalog of Run 1:
dark read RPM line, shows me leaving off an 1,100 rpm high-idle and the converter flashing around 2,800 (but its a 3,400 converter.. is this normal??), I hit the revv limiter at the top of both shifts (flat spot on dark red line). ignition timing is the flat green line and was 35 deg at WOT. AFR seems well dialed in (except rev limiter moment and at shift)







Datalog from Run 2:
Left from a 1,600 rpm and converter flashes right around 2,800 rpm. timing is 35 deg. Was much better on the shifts with the 1->2 shift at 6,289 and the 2->3 shift at 6,356 rpm. crossing the finish line lower than usual in the rpm band (at 5,480 rpm but I also have an extra 300 pounds in the trunk). CL comp% and learn were also pretty good.





Only one in-car video from yesterday which was pass 1 against the trackhawk. I must have double clicked the go-pro camera button because for pass 2 I only have a 1second clip! whoops.

skinny z

Well, a day at the track is better than a day anywhere else I'd say.
It's interesting to see your side by side time slips with the 100 lbs difference. 100 lbs = 1/10 I see....
Take the 300 lbs out and that's 12.2. The DA was 550' at 11;00 AM August 1st. Corrected ET would be 12.05.
I know you want to pull a wheel but man, I'm after that 11 second like a dog on a bone.
Good day though. What did I say about the bracket racing guys? Dialed in or what. Mind you, his .92 RT isn't much better than your .117.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

yea, those bracket guys are levels beyond me!!
that guy who knocked me out had some weather-meter device sittign on the trunk of his car while we were in the lanes.
Since I dont have that, my next best thing is I check the DA that day prior to both runs using the TRC (that racing channel) app.
For pass 1 it was: 2660 ft, 50% humidity, 84 def F
For pass2 it was: 2876 DA, 43% humidity, 86 deg,


Some people seem to think that my converter is really realyl holding me back. I am going to call the converter company and ask them a few questions. also one guy mentioned that my rpm drop from 1->2 and 2->3 shift appears to be pretty big. I noticed this a while back, but then looked at my dyno sheet and saw that the rpms it shifts to is right exactly where my torque peak #'s are (4,700 rpm). so I wasnt too concerned. I had the company set up the converter for a multi-use street car, and its doing that, but drag racers are telling me I could be low 11s with a drag setup converter set around 4800 rpm or so

skinny z

That's the trade off for street/strip/auto cross as opposed to strip only. You have to compromise in some areas. Converter and gearing are what's held me back from 11's. Guys with less engine than mine are quicker because they're better dialed for the 1/4 mile. Your crossing the strip at 5500 RPM (+/-) is almost 1000 short of ideal. The converter is the same deal. If you could leave at peak torque you'd have your 11's with room to spare. And you'd carry the front wheels provided your suspension is dialed in.
All of that said, I still like my comfortable highway gearing and lockup converter. Knocking down a decent MPG is as important to me as outright speed. Or almost as important anyway.

Your DA's and Drag Times are pretty much the same. Track Elevation: 515 feet above sea level.
Air Temperature: 84.92 degrees F
Barometric Pressure: 29.96 inches Hg
Relative Humidity: 49 %
Density Altitude: 2499 feet above sea level

What for the nice autumn weather. I've always been quickest in October.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

Thanks skinny. you have been a huge help these last few months, I really do appreciate all your input! I'll get an 11second timeslip for you for sure.

You are exactly right and I knew this back in December when I decided that I will be keeping this car a multi-use car. Perhaps one day I will have a full blown drag-strip killer, but it will be a different car, not this one. After 20 years driving this on the street, I want to get another 20 years street duty out of it! like you said, I could have a killer 1/4 mile setup, but would sacrifice street manners, and autocross would suffer.


I decided to call Andre at Edge Racing converters this afternoon just to settle my thoughts and ask his expert advice. I had a few questions which have been rolling around in my head, and the topics have been covered here on TGO and with other friends of mine, but I figured it would only help me to speak with him. he built my converter with the most important aspect being the "STR factor" or "street" parameters setup that his company does. The street nature of the car along with all the car/engine specs were taken into account along the way. He knew that my future plans did/do include nitrous use so he made the converter tighter so that it doesn't "flash through" when nitrous is in use next year.


He confirmed that the converter flashing at 2,800 rpm after leaving off of a high idle at 1,200 or so, is normal. He described the converter in having a " true-stall of 3,100plus ". He stated that if I wanted to have the best/highest converter flash-stall, I would be best leaving off of a dead idle (mine idle is set at 920 rpms). More important than flash-stall is true stall of the converter. Flash-stall is not necessarily where I need to launch the car every time. I was not doing this during the session this past Saturday when I had the 300 lbs in the trunk, I now will try this next time). As for my rpm drop between shifts, he stated that for the street car aspect that this car is, that the 1,500 rpm drop between shifts is normal. If the car was a full blown 1/4 mile car he would want the rpm drop to be only about 1,000 rpm.. and for an 1/8th mile car the rpm drop would be only about 800 rpm. If the car was setup for drag race only he would have the converter stall speed at 4,000 -4,200 rpm. The best for me now (with plans for nitrous this winter) is keeping this 3,400 converter as is. "Nitrous will cause a higher flash and higher K factor". As for the 8.6% converter slip (a friend helped calculate with the extra weight in the trunk) this number is pretty good. He said to do some fresh passes with no weight in the trunk and launching from an idle and then calculate slippage again. I also asked him if there would be any benefit to me manually locking-up the converter at any time during the run. He said it wouldn't cause any problems mechanically with the converter because it has high-carbon internals and would not ever glaze or depreciate. It would get closer to 1:1 ratio when in lockup, but this would then get me more "out of thesweet spot", and would cause even more of a drop in rpm's between the shifts, "it would be a slow dog" if I locked it up during a pass. (I did actually try this back on June 6th, and i remember that it did exactly this so I never re-visited locking it up during a run but wanted to ask him anyways). I asked him about the wheelie aspect, and he recommended that for this I would be better off launching completely opposite as discussed before. My 60ft and et would suffer, but I would have a better chance of lifting the nose up if I brought the rpms up as high as possible on the foot-brake and then pouncing on the throttle.

So, launch from as high rpm as my brakes can hold for a wheelie attempt, but for the best/quickest drag pass possible, leave from a 920rpm idle.


He is confident that with nitrous on this converter the car will fly. It is currently doing fantastic with street manners, its right there at the autocross, and is doing moderately well for N/A drag racing.. but when I get the nitrous into this car...this converter will come alive. This sound right? basically I am currently just experiencing the results of having a mutli-use car but the "slower" N/A drag passes will give way to much better use of the converter when the 200 shot starts flowing.

MDDAWG

Hi, I have the exact same converter from edge although Dana told me it would be rated 2600-2800 rpm , also have all the his street strip upgrades in my 4l60 , I find it curious you only have a 1500 rpm drop on the 1-2 shift . I just went back and looked at 4 or 5 data logs and every single one has a 2000 rpm drop on the 1-2 this is a 386 cu in 530hp sbc at the flywheel . I'm running a 3.73 rear gear and a 25.7 dia rear tire. The trans has stock planetary sets so no gear change there, hmmm. got me wondering , there cant be that much difference in the converter I wouldn't think. I usually shift at 6500 and it goes to 6750 on the data log . torque peak is around 4800- 5000 about 525, I have always thought that is too much drop but it seems to compute base on gear ratio's

MDDAWG

I forgot , was going to ask if you have much launch wheel spin. from a dead stop launch from idle 950 rpm I get very little , I don't know maybe the converter is a little too tight.guess I,m going to have to get to the track to find out for sure, problem is closest one for me is 4 hours away. but thats Montana .

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

ah, interesting indeed. yea, our rear gear ratio is a bit different as well as the converter numbers, but indeed I only do experience a 1,500 drop in rpm. is this possibly because you shift a little bit higher than me too? Our torque peak is just about the same too and hp as well. Not sure if this is valve body/line-pressure related or converter related? I am no expert so I am also curious to know.

I am running the Mickey Thompson ET Street SS tires on my 16"x8" iroc wheels. On the street they spin if I try to launch from a light, but I have never had them spin at the track as far as I can tell. I have some launch photos that I am using to solidify my thoughts on this (see photos in my post #106 above on this page) , but I don't have a camera pointed at the back tire to confirm. My 60'foots with the ET street drag radials are all in the 1.7s so I dont think the tires are spinning at all. Some of my worse 60foots were because I did a weak/short burnout. So I am glad about this lack of tire spin, with the power/torque levels. I am going to experiment this Sunday with launching from a dead idle, and launching from as high a rpm as I can foot-brake to. Additionally, I am going to put weight in the trunk for some passes and afterward completely remove the weight too while varying the launch rpms. Sunday will be a lot of testing and tuning related to the launch, but at least I now can focus on that and less on the tach/shift light and also the sniper efi tune is pretty well set.. the only thing I might eventually do is put another degree or two of timing at WOT in the tune, but probably not this weekend.

skinny z

From what I've worked out , both mathematically and empirically is :

6500 rpm 1st gear shift to ~3420 in 2nd.
6500 rpm 2nd gear shift to ~4010 in 3rd.
6000 rpm 2nd gear shift to ~3700 in 3rd.

That's based on the 700R4/4L60 gear ratios of 3.06 and 1.62 (1st and 2nd respectively). This does not account for the characteristics of the converter.
​​​​With my off the shelf 10" TCI, I'm estimating about a 10% slippage. There's always been a significant RPM drop from 1st to 2nd. It's not so much from 2nd to 3rd as you can see in the above.
Now the empirical part came from racing with my own Camaro and a similarly prepared 82 Monte Carlo. My 1-2 was always crisp although the ratio split made for a terrible shift. The 2-3 shift was generally slow despite the tighter gearing. That was with a home prepped 700 with the usual stuff and the 10" converter. Now enter the Monte with the same converter and transmission. Predictably the same results. Later that season we swapped in a spec 9.5" Yank. Surprisingly (to me anyway) was that data logs showed that the engine RPMs never fell below 5000 regardless of the gear it was in. 6500 1-2 shift landed at 5000. Same on the 2-3. That car picked up 2/10ths.
This to me demonstrated the importance of having a converter tailor made for the application. And a specific application at that. Not only that but having a thoroughly built transmission pays off too. My home brew rebuild was sent to a specialty shop (an acquaintance of mine actually). I spec'd a pile of Sonax and new GM parts for it and let my guy do his thing. The results are nothing short of spectacular. Shifts are blazingly fast at WOT. Even the previously sloppy 2-3 shift is instant.
Now although I've stepped up in the converter game with another TCI, it's not going to compare to the likes of a Yank or an Edge that's made for my car as you guys have.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

cool. good info. I don't feel that bad about my rpm drop in between shifts then. Some local NJ guys (who are more drag race oriented) were sayign I had too much rpm drop in between shifts



I hope to back to Island Dragway on Sunday to experiment with launching from a dead idle. I am on a quest to find out why this car seems so "bogged down" for having a 531 hp engine. I am also considering removing the cat back exhaust for a day of testing? I know that some of you guys are making due with a 3" exhaust and are making more power than I am, but I became curious about if my DynoDon's mid length headers, Dyno dons y-pipe and hooker 3" full cat back (gutted cat tho) was too restrictive. I do have an electric cutout mid way along the 3" main pipe, and I leave this open while racing, so I never thought much more into it as being restrictive. I played with an exhaust size calculator and in general terms, a 3" single pipe exhaust is really only good for 370 hp. Another calculator shows I would need about 3.6" diameter pipe for 531 hp.

- On my other build thread (the one started a few years ago) I knew I would need to upgrade the exhaust later, but it was not in the budget for this year or for the N/A setup. My plans were/are to put a mufflex 4" exhaust and some long tubes on the car this winter when the nitrous gets installed and along with the roll bar. I am wondering if I should bother leaving the headers and y pipe on but taking the rest of the cat-back off the car for this sunday's test and tune day. Its hardly more than 20 minutes of work and this would remove the two tailpipes, muffler, over axle pipe, and part of the main pipe... removing maybe 40 pounds of weight and possibly freeing up exhaust flow??. I cant take off the y-pipe and run open headers because of where the o2 sensor is and it would get false readings. thoughts?

skinny z

Without a doubt the exhaust is limiting output. By how much? Difficult to say.
I've have LT headers (more like mid-length actually) and a single 3" Flowmaster cork in the stock location (no cats). Right at the turn before the muffler I've a cut-out. Back to back tests, within an hour, showed a 1.5 MPH improvement in the 1/8. I think I worked that out to about a 5% gain. I think it's fair to say to you stand to gain at least that. The only fly in the ointment here might be some weird pressure wave/resonance that interferes with the exhaust port efficiency. This is the science behind exhaust pulse/pressure wave tuning and why open headers, per se, can really crush low end torque unless a suitable length collector extension is added. Lengths are specific to the engine combination.
I'd say give it a go. Maybe experiment with your new launch technique and build a baseline. Then drop the exhaust (and weight) and give it a go. It IS test and tune after all.

MDDAWG

I would love to see you test the exhaust that way, I have the same deal , Dyno Dons, his y pipe Then 3 inch back to the muffler which is a Magnaflow , also have a Granetelli single 3 inch electric cutout after the y pipe , no cat in my system , but often wondered if that is choking down my 530 dyno hp as well. As far as the rpm drop I think my 2000 rpm drop is gonna just be the way it is shifting at 6700 or so I'm gonna try try it shifting at 6200 and see if that number comes down. Let us know what happens with the exhaust test if you do that , have fun.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

cool. Well I am taking the car to a big local car show on Saturday, so once I get home from that show I will get the car ready to head to teh dragstrip T&T for Sunday morning. I will pull all 4 wheels off, and put on the front skinnies and the rear drag radials. then remove the sound system in the trunk, remove the front pass seat, remove the nitrous bottle and rear seats also. after that I will remove the cat-back from the car. That I would much rather do at home instead of at the track. If I did it at the track I would be wasting time wrenching the exhaust off that I could better utilize out there making passes. Also, I would have to then re-install it at the track unless I broke it all down into pieces and loaded it in the car.. and that's not really my style. So what I am saying is, I can't make back-to-back passes on sunday with the exhaust on and then with it off, but I can amke passes with it off and later compare the passes with it off to some previous passes (similar weather conditions and shifting) and see what results.

I might also add in another degree of two of timing to the 35 I was running at WOT.

seems like the three of us have a very similar setup, especially exhaust. even where our exhaust cut-out is placed. If skinny had a 1.5 mph improvement in the 8th mile, that is super promising for me to hear. Since I will be leaving my Y-pipe on and also the short piece of the 3" main pipe, I might not kill off too much low end torque. maybe, maybe not. shall see. .

MDDAWG, yea, you shift a few hundred rpms higher than me so perhaps that is why your rpm drop is bigger? My rpm drop puts me right back at peak torque numbers, but it still has a ways to go before it gets to peak hp.

skinny z

If you're going to the track with the exhaust open, I have one piece of advice. Wear ear plugs!
And good luck.

FWIW: My time slips.
8.124 @ 83.82 1.81 60’
8.070 @ 85.14 1.81 60’ (muffler uncapped)
w/ 3.73 gear, RHS Pro Torker heads, 355, custom cam: 224/ .575”

Not quite 1 1/2 MPH but you can see the trend. If I had paid attention to my AFR's , I may have improved on that. In this case it was uncap and go. The poor 60 foot times were because of the well aged and tractionless ET Streets. Personal best was 1.71.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

Overall a pretty good weekend. But I think I am going to take a break for a little while, especially from racing the car. Might do some car shows until the weather gets a little better, unless I go over to a night-time T&T at Island. 3 racing events in 3 weekends was a little much (UMI autoX, Summit Bracket racing event, and T&T)


Went to the Cops-n-Rodders Car show in Hackettstown, NJ on Saturday. Show was definitely good, live band, food, vendors, etc. A good assortment of well built cars, and it was actually my first car show (non cruise-night) event of the year. Weather was hot, but hey, it is August.
click link to photo album from the car show:



Drove the car home and promptly removed the interior seats, nitrous bottle, sound system, front sway-bar, and removed the hooker 3" cat back. Swapped over all 4 wheels, and then loaded up my boxes of tools, spare parts, jack, and stuff.



sidenote: I had these little logos printed at a local vinly place to put on the new Jegs skinnies. kinda takes away from the bulky look of the center cap:


---also in the above photo is the type of breather I plan to install on the old evap line to the fuel tank.. think that will vent the hot fuel vapor from the tank without making an overwhelming smell in the garage?? I am going to try the AC delco GT195 A gas cap also.



Test and Tune was packed with a lot of cars on Sunday. There was a huge number of import/tuner cars and it took me 45 minutes to get through the front booth from the time I pulled onto the driveway. whew. I kept checking the weather/DA and pretty much knew that my first pass was likely going to be my best of the day...and... that it probably would not be anything in the 11 second zone. I knew I would therefore work on my reaction time, launches, 60 foot and also getting my shift light and shifting dialed in better. I had brought those heavy 50 pound weights just in case, so if my passes were garbage, I was going to try one last attempt for a wheel lift using the weights in the trunk.







Pass 1: launched from an idle (906 rpm) with a 1.690 60ft! ran a 12.153 at 111.10 mph . shifted at 6,428 rpm and 6,144, crossed the finish line at 5,700 rpm . WOT ignition timing set at 35.5 deg




video:





Pass 2: launched from an idle (964rpm) and a 1.808 60ft. ran a 12.285 at 112.31 mph shifted at 6,380 and 6,056 and finished at 5,736 rpm WOT timing moved up to 37.0 deg.





video:


Pass 3: launched from an idle (898 rpm) and a 1.702 60ft. ran a 12.269 at 110.92 mph this pass I tried shifting off of the tach needle on the dashboard and hit the rev limiter both times. the shift light was lit-up both times but I wanted to see what the data log said if I shifted using the dash tach. shifted at 6,508 and 6,352 finished at 5,519 rpm WOT timing was moved to 38.0 deg. noticed my AFR is rich after pass 2, seeing 12.2-12.4. a nearby racer told me to lean it out so I set it at 12.8





video:

Pass 4: launched from and idle (917 rpm) and a 1.723 60ft. ran a 12.190 at 112.34 mph... shifted at 6,229 and 6,024 finished at 5,724 rpm timing still 38 deg WOT and AFR set to 12.8




video:

Pass 5: knew I wasn't getting faster so I tried leaving off of the max rpm the brakes would hold, and at 2,181 rpm it pushed through the beams. 1.866 60ft and ran a 12.358 at 112.02 mph . tried shifting off the needle again and anticipated it too much so I short shifted at 5,969 and 5,980 finishing at 5,567 rpm . timing still 38 deg WOT and AFR set to 12.8




video:


Pass 6: decided to try the weights int he trunk one last time before I give that up and put 250 pounds of weight in the trunk well. had to try it one last time. launched at 1,793 rpm and a 1.793 60ft. ran a 12.560 short shifting it a lot at 5,667 and 5,890 rpm and finishing at 5,450 rpm timing still 38 deg WOT and AFR set to 12.8




video:

the converter is flashing just above 3,000 rpm if I leave off my 920 rpm idle. the launches are less aggressive in the seat leaving from an idle, but as the converter guy told me on the phone.. I will see a better 60foot if I leave off an idle (except pass 2, not sure what was different there) I now have the shift light set to come on at 6,050 rpm which should keep me shifting between 6,200-6,350 rpm. rev limiter set at 6,550 at the end of the day. I figured out what settings my shocks and struts like to be on for a good launch. Also, the new-to-me front skinnies are set to 37psi (hot) and the rear MT ET street drag radials like to be at 19.0 psi (hot).

Determined that I am not going to be able to get the car to pull the front wheels with the current setup. a better rear gear might do it. and of course when the nitrous goes on this winter, it will launch wheels up, but I had to do what I could think of to at least try it a few times. it does get good front end lift and plants/hooks the rear tires, so i shouldn't be upset about that at all!








I mean overall, it was a good day at the track for figuring things out...but I am still super confused as to what is holding this car back. from higher mph and better passes. Something is robbing power, especially in 3rd gear at the top of the track.. its a dog. I don't think I got a lame engine, it made good steam on the dyno and I know for sure that it was my actual engine on the dyno paperwork they gave me and not just a false printout. Something is just eating power. Not the cat-back exhaust either, since that was removed for this whole day and I didn't see any monumental power gains in timeslips or in datalog info. It also isn't something silly like a dragging caliper or wheel bearing. I did that test where I had the car running and in neutral on jack stands and the rear wheels were spinning very slightly but freely with the car in neutral, so if that was the case, I can eliminate a tight/dragging brakes or axle setup right?





regardless. I used several racing calculators and checked the corrected e.t. and mph and high 11.7 to mid 11.8 passes are what came out all around 115-116 mph. I would be real happy to have an actual paper timeslip with those numbers, and I don't have any intention of changing rear gear ratios or big parts to get there.. so i will have to wait for better weather conditions. theoretically the horsepower of the engine should be in the mid-low 11's on a drag-based setup, so a high 11 would be more realistic for my multi-use street car. I guess I will have to be patient, but I am open to any and all suggestions and feedback.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

installed the breather that has been suggested on the old EVAP line. I put it right in that little area under the car where the OEM fuel filter used to be. It is right next to my wilwood adjustable prop valve and my racetronix 10micron fuel filter. so far no pressurized gas tank issues, but I haven't really ran the car that long on a hot day since. also, no noticeable fuel smell in the garage. I did buy an AC Delco gas cap which I was going to use instead of the filter/breather, but I will probably return it to Autozone in the future.






I have the passenger side ground effect piece (that a NJ camaro buddy gave to me) all bodyworked, sanded, and primed. I might even get to paint it tomorrow.

[






For a while I have been having an intermittent issue with the starter/starting the engine. Ever since March when the default cranking fuel values was pre-set wayyyy high from holley the starter would kick and clang occasionally. After I started using my remote tuner guy and learning the tuning info myself I lowered cranking fuel wayyy wayy down, but a little bit over time. Hot cranking fuel is about 7lbs and cold (60-80degF) is about 22pounds. holley had it set somewhere in the mid-40 pound range and this would cause the engine to occasionally not start and sneeze a vapor cloud of fuel out of the tbi. this would kick the starter and cause it to clang off of the flexplate. this happen more often in the spring, but as I dialed cranking fuel lower, it became less frequent by June....

.... Until recently, the clang, the starter gear kicking back, and the engine not spinning for more than a second or two happens a lot now. Now, I know I have been hard on this starter, especially the last 5-6 years with some of the racing events. especially maneuvering around in the grid and staging lanes, turning the car on and off repeatedly at events. In the back of my mind I told myself, one day that starter will get tired of this repeated on-off-on-off.

The starter is a Summit Hitachi Starter #SUM829100 which I bought for $112 and installed in October of 2010. It has always worn a fabric thermal-heat shield and never gave me any problems on the old engine during those 9 years. I had considered buying a new starter when I installed this new engine, but said, welp, lets see how this one works and we will decided after. It did work good, and my thought back in the spring was that the high cranking fuel was flooding the engine and not firing the motor, so the starter was disengaging, with a clang and a bang and a buzz. Did this bad-ness happen often enough to a well-used 10 year old starter that now it is in it's death-throws?
I chatted with Scooter a little bit about this and finally had a chance to watch what the gear was doing today when my wife came home and worked the key. Pulled the fuel-pump's fuel and the ignition coil wire first. I checked my voltage also and at the positive post on the starter I am getting 12.10 volts and this wire comes directly from the battery in the trunk after passing through the on/off kill switch. When cranking the ignition/starter, I am getting 11.23 volts on the starter's terminal. See the short 30 second youtube video for what it is doing. (not staying engaged and freezing, and then starting to spin after it gets away from the flexplate. unfortunately there is no clanging or banging in the video. My "ignition cranking timing" is set at 13 deg and it has been this way for months. Should I lower it?

Yesterday I was troubleshooting this and since I wanted to change the spark plugs on the car anyways, I decided to do a compression test, and also see how if the starter spun the engine over easily with no plugs in it. Since the starter was acting up and I could not get the car to start, I did a cold compression test. all readings were between 145-155 cold, but anyways, the starter did "ok" staying engaged and spinning the motor over. However, even with no plugs in it, the starter would kick itself off the flexplate or stop spinning the flexplate but still making a spinning noise itself. Sidenote, I wore the battery down while doing the compression test, so I put it on a fast charge AGM charger and with new plugs in the motor, the car actually started after a few attempts .

Has this starter just been so used, abused, and clanged-on/shocked so many times the internal mechanics are pretty much shot, or am I looking at something different altogether? If I need a new starter, no problem, but if its something else, please let me know what to check. Summit no longer makes/sells the model starter I have, but there seems to be some equivalent mini-starters at a similar price.

short video:


new plugs installed, visually checked under the valve covers, checked for vacum leaks and vac tested everything to find I am still at about 7.5" of vacum, so perhaps one day in the future I will add a vac pump for my brakes, because sometimes they are a little iffy..but the vac pump is for a later time, probably winter project.






Lastly,
Found some of the photos from last weekend's Test and Tune at Island and these photos were early in the day, during pass 1 and pass 3. These were taken when I was leaving from a dead idle, I am sure of that because I was in the left lane. I did not attempt a better wheelie attempt until I was in the right lane on pass 5 and 6 when I left from a higher 2,200 rpm (and rolled the beams in pass 5) and put 250 pounds of weight in the trunk for pass 6 (and left from 1,800 rpm). during the passes int he right lane I also set the shocks/struts to be very loose, so I am sure the car is getting up a little higher, but not enough to yank a wheel up. ... while I am happy to have figured out that leaving from an idle gets me the best 60foot, the car just isn't getting up high enough to pull a wheel that way. I'll have to wait for the nitrous. The car does transfer weight good and is not spinning the MT ET streets, so I am happy about that.

skinny z

12.1 volts at the starter? 11.23 under load? Is that with a fully charged battery? I'd like to know the voltage at the battery terminals for comparison and your wiring method for relocating the battery to the rear. Maybe it's a function of too little voltage to keep the starter solenoid engaged and it's dropping out.
As for cranking compression, and I understand it was cold cranking, I'd like to compare that to what your calculated compression ratio is.

skinny z

Regarding your launch pictures, from what I can see they look pretty good. What would happen in my case was too much squat in the rear. Even with reasonable rise in front and the weight transfer it brings, when the car sat down in the back it would unload the tires. There's goes the 60' time into the toilet. Can't really tell from the photos but it appears that the gap between tire and fender is close to static ride height isn't it?

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

Yup. Those are the numbers I got while colt testing everything but I am certain the battery was run down a little
bit because earlier in the day I was trying to start the car and was experimenting with the starter and then I had to go out for a few hours and finally got a chance to get under the car and use the voltmeter around 6 pm when my wife got home. So I’m sure it was down a few tenths of a volt

from my understanding, the starter mostly is grounded via how it bolts to the engine right ? My engine is grounded to the battery and to the chassis. Using 1 gauge wiring. Not 01 but 1 gauge. There is also that small thin ground wire that comes off of the top of the solenoid too right?

I would be happy to learn that my starter is still functional and I don’t need a new one, but that would surprise me if there was a wiring issue. As for how I wired the car/battery, I have a detailed writeup and photos in my other long thread. If you search “vehicle prep prior to installing my new engine” it should come up. Essentially battery is in the back. Two wires on the positive of the battery and Go to the Kill switch. The one wire goes up directly to the alternator and that’s all it does. The other wire Goes to a distribution posT under the hood. . From the post A 1 gauge wire goes to the starter and then a smaller 8 gauge wire goes to a distribution block which all goes he components that need positive power connect to

here is a link to the photo album of photos I took during the battery relocation. it looks like one photo, but it is actually a photo album link

and one photo:

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Starter overrun clutch is slipping. Starter needs to be replaced.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

qwk: thats what I was hoping to hear, I have less frustration with replacing the starter (removing the header, plugs, and starter is easiest method for me), but I did not want to go ahead and order one before checking with people more knowledgeable than me. Yet, If it was electrical in nature, I would check everything and perform tests, but I would rather make a post and check with you guys first in case there was something I was overlooking. It would be odd for it to be a wiring issue as the problem existed more frequently during cold-starts instead of hot starts. I turn he kill switch almost every time I am parking the car for more than a minute, so it would be extra strange if it was a battery issue. regardless, I will check my electrical, but it seems I should go ahead and order a new replacement starter.. agree??

I also did not know what the technical term for what the starter/gear was actually doing. I spent a few hours online reading about starter issues and the usual stuff came up, but I didnt find or see anyone with similar symptoms to what I was having.

do you think I should lower my "ignition cranking timing" from 13 deg or is that somewhat normal for a sbc 10.5:1 engine

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

skinny, thanks, I am going tout to the garage in a little while to check wiring and such, will get the optima red top battery fully charged up also.
considering ordering a new starter by the end of today, so I am hoping to determine this problem asap so hopefully I can use the car this weekend. I might call the local speed shop and see if he has any mini-starters in stock, but sometimes his prices are pretty high for components.

as for the launch. yea, I should count myself lucky that I am not having trouble getting a good launch. part of me wants that wheel up, but part of me knows that I should be happy the car is transferring weight nicely. you are correct, the rear wheel-arch does not seem to drop over the tire.. in fact it is either at ride height, OR maybe slightly above ride height? If you compare the gap between the rear fender and tire in those launch photos to some of the other photos of the car stationary with those same rear wheels on it, the car almost looks like its slightly up higher on that drivers side? maybe half an inch or so? my chocks were set middle/low in the rear. unfortunately, no photos of what thebody is doing with the weight in the car or launching from a higher rpm, so thats a mystery still.