ttypecamaro

iTrader: (2)

My uncle gave my little brother a chrysler turbo for Christmas to put on his 88 firebird V6. I saw daves12secV6 sticky that says to use 19# injectors and an FMU for fueling. I guess the 19pph injectors go static is why you need the FMU?

I have a set of 19# injectors and a set of LT1 injectors that I can use (stock is 16#?). Lowering the base fuel pressure would probably work, but chip tuning cost less money, and in my opinion is the right way to do it. I already have everything needed to put a custom .bin in the car.

I didn't notice an injector constant in tunerpro ($3A definition for 1227302), a table I was looking at was "injector pulse width vs load". If I multiply that table by a calculated scalar, that should, in theory, account for the injector swap, right? 16pph/24pph =~ .667

Will the V6 MAF read accurately to about 7-8psi of boost (estimated 200-230hp), or will it max sooner than a v8 MAF, or is it the same? (placed before the turbo)

when searching I found some old stuff that suggested changing MAF calibration tables around, but that was with modified/aftermarket MAFs. Will the stock/unmodified MAF require that I make calibration modifications assuming the injectors do not go static.

The real question that I'm getting at is:
Can I swap in the LT1 injectors, multiply by a scalar, weld on the turbo, and drive (with only very minor fine tuning)?

Grumpy

Yes, an FMU is one answer, but if you attend any meet where there's some serious turbo cars, you might see one or two per hundred cars.

As far as street manners with big injectors go, I've been 60 PPH injectors on my 231 V6 for years, without a hiccup.

Too much timing or not enough fuel on a turbo motor is asking for massive engine problems.

ttypecamaro

iTrader: (2)

I have done a lot of tuning on MY car with turbos, so I appreciate the complexity of the task, not saying I'm actually good at it. My car uses speed density tuning where the LB8 uses MAF.

First, I want to get the stock motor running properly with the 24pph injectors with no other modification except a new tune. I'm just wondering if anyone can tell me if it is as easy as multiplying by .667 and drive?

edit: the stock tune pulls out a lot of timing at high loads (~20* of total advance) and Daves12secRS has run low boost without timing modification in the chip itself

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

ttype thats not true exactly,while i havent modified the chip when i run under 12 psi i put +4-6* base timing into the motor.even at higher boost levels upto 18psi i still add base timing but i only add +2* from stock.
i just dont most ppl in the v6 section that though lol afriad might have them blowing up motors from improper tunes

btw can i get a copy of the def file and the stock bin from u, i lost mine and forgot were i had downloaded them from

ttypecamaro

iTrader: (2)

you can download the files here:
https://jshare.johnshopkins.edu/aschlot1/7302ecm

AMBD (copy of my brothers stock chip. 88 firebird)
AMBF (I think this is an update, the only differences should be in the MAF cal tables)
$3A is the tunerprort definition file

another link for tons of bin files and stuff:
ftp://ftp.diy-efi.org/pub/gmecm/

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

thnx man

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Has anyone dumped the ROM from the '7302 ECM? Such as outlined here on Ludis's site:

http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/spit.html

I wouldn't mind getting a copy. Unless there is a hac out there it may to be time to create one. This is one of the reasons that a lot of questions with the use of the ECM go unanswered.

As for the larger injectors another area of tune are the proportional gains.

RBob.

ttypecamaro

iTrader: (2)

I put the injectors in a few minutes ago and started it up with the stock chip. it ran pretty rich, but it was drivable. next, I need to log some data and make some changes on the chip.

I don't know what the proportional gains are. I don't see a table or constant in tunerpro rt and I checked the list of tables/constant/switches on the tunercat website for the $3A.

If I did figure out how to read the permanent ROM I wouldn't be able to do anything with it. I've always wanted to learn to read/edit GM code, but never had the patience to make time.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The proportional gains are used to force the AFR to oscillate. This is the rich/lean that the O2 sensor shows during closed loop. Typically PW based going to large injectors causes the prop gains to be greater.

If you do manage to dump the ROM please email me a copy. From that and a BIN I'll do a hac. So the folks using this ECM will know what is what with the code and tables.

RBob.

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

quick ? i downloaded both those bins,but the fuel cutoff speeds both say 255
so im quessing the bins have been modified in some way?
i looked at the spark tables and man i didnt relize how much lil timing the v6 actually has.im betting i could see a huge gain just playing with the timing
looking at the max airflow vs rpm i see i can go upto 255gmsec but in the maf tables it tops at 149.1gmsec.shouldnt the maf tables also goto 255gmsec?

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Hanging on to this thread!

ttypecamaro

iTrader: (2)

The AMBD was NOT modified. It was read directly from the stock chip. I verified it again just a minute ago since I have the chip right next to my laptop. My only guess is that this car doesn't have a speed limiter. I've never had it past 80mph to find out. theres no place around here to go fast safely (or legally for that matter) untill the track re-opens.

I tried changing the MAX AIRFLOW Vs. RPM table and it caused a servere bucking/misfire at exactly 4000rpm, 4600rpm, and 5000rpm, and it threw a code 45(o2 rich). At first I put the higher RPM (>3600) cells to 255, no good. Then I put them at 150, still no good. I went back to the totally stock table and it ran fine. weird!!!

After much testing with LT1 (24pph) injectors, I multiplied the entire stock Injector Pulse Width(msec) Vs. Load Value by .77(decimal) and it runs great. That was the ONLY change I made from stock. BLMs are close to 128. Idle PW is about 1.10-1.20ms.

Daves12secV6: did you have any problems with the engine leaning out due to the MAX airflow table after it was turboed? Is that the real reason for the FMU? In the 7165 V8 ecm that table limits the maximum fuel added by overriding the MAF reading when it exceeds the limit in that table.

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

yeah around 8-9 psi it would go dead lean on me before i added the fmu

ttypecamaro

iTrader: (2)

that was with 19pph injectors and stock base fuel pressure, right? was the motor TOTALLY stock at that point, or had you modified it? I'm trying to decide if the injectors went static (100%DC) or if the MAX AIRFLOW table was limiting the fuel.

Do you have any power estimates on a bone stock 2.8 at 7-8 psi? I think six 19pph injectors max out around 225hp, which supports the idea that the injectors were maxed out.

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

i can do a lil better then that,i have wideband logs and stuff i will post
well i can tell u a bone stock 3.1 will make 255rwhp with 6-7 psi if i remeber right.so say 225rwhp around the same psi on the 2.8
give me a min and ill post up some data logs running 7 psi with 19# injectors stock base fp and no fmu

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

all of these were loged under these conditions
#1 7 psi of boost
#2 stock FP/Pump
#3 no fmu
#4 19# injectors
sorry i dont have the rpm or tps loged during these but i didnt have access to an aux box at the time



dammit tgo resized the pics lemme get u direct links
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j3...es2k3/afr3.gif
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j3...es2k3/afr2.gif
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j3...des2k3/afr.gif
hopefully those help ya lil
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oh btw going to 10-11 psi on the same setup resulted in 14.8+ afr's under boost

ttypecamaro

iTrader: (2)

Thank you! your customer service is even great for people who are not customers and are "stealing" your idea.

So it seems I should be fine around 7-8 psi (factory 87 Dodge Lancer wastegate setting) on the bonestock 2.8 with 24pph LT1 injectors. even if that table does limit the fuel, I can add fuel by increasing the PE table without touching the max airflow table which seemed to cause problems.

I should get some work done on getting the turbo installed tomorrow. Maybe I'll buy an hour on a dyno ($100) when its all done to make sure it's just right and to get some numbers.
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I'd imagine/hope 10-11 psi is about where the six 19pph injectors maxed out.

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

one thing i never got to adding to the turbo stickey was about crankcase evac.
the line that goes to the belows infront of the tb should most deffinatly be hooked to the turbo inlet,or u may start blowing opil out of the seals everywere,depending on how worn the rings in the motor are. if u do hook it up i recomend a oil catch can since were that line hooks into the valve cover it has no baffles

ttypecamaro

iTrader: (2)

yeah, I already have the hose and fitting for that in front of the turbo, but after the MAF. Hopefully thats not an issue.
I did it similar on my car. the catch can is a good idea, i didn't know it wasn't baffled, maybe I'll stick a breather in there untill I get/fab a catch can.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

I actually read this on a Honda forum, LOL.
Do you mean if you hook it up to the stock location, to use a catch can?
Or use a catch can if you hook it up before the turbo inlet?
.
EDIT : Thanx ttype, I guess I should just sit back and listen/watch you guys, LOL

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

first no i mean use an catch can if u hook it to the turbo inlet,otherwise ur liable to sux oil into the turbo,which will get into the intercool and pipes.
u dont have to hook that line up,u can stick a breather in it like i did,i havent had any problems with mine on the 3.1 motors,but if u start burning oil,or get oil leaks from the gaskets and seals then u need to hook up that line to the turbo inlet

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

heya ttype any updates on the tunning or the install?

ttypecamaro

iTrader: (2)

I just cleaned up and came in the house... I ran out of argon. I have the exhaust done and the turbo is clocked and temporarily mounted. the MAF and filter are on and the oil drain is installed.

I need to mount the intercooler. I have a ton of little stuff to do as well... change oil/filter, relocate IAT sensor, extend MAF wires, finish IC pipes, install O2 bung, vacuum line to wastegate, coolant lines to turbo, oil feed, and maybe some more stuff.
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oh yeah... the valve cover has a baffle in it. and the car was running perfect with the 24pph LT1 injectors and my custom chip.

should be running by thursday

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

hmm mine didnt have a baffle unless im thinking of the pcv hole or sumthin.are u gonna use a heated 02 sensor.
i had problems with the stock 1 wire sensor after installing the turbo,it woeuldnt get hot enough.
got any pics of what ya got so far ?

ttypecamaro

iTrader: (2)

I have a 3 wire O2 sensor. Do you know if I can power it with one of the MAF wires? that would simplify wiring greatly.

I was gonna take some pictures, but I know I wouldn't ever bother to take another picture of the finished product. So I'm gonna wait till its all done, cuz I'm lazy.

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

i dont think u can wire it to the maf,id wire it to the fuel pump relay.
mine happenes to be wired to my fan relay since my fan is hooked up so it comes on with the key

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

any updates ? lol

ttypecamaro

iTrader: (2)

I spent the entire day on Wednesday sick, so I didn't even touch the car, but I did get a refill of argon.

today I ran out of pipe for the intake. I need about 2 more feet of pipe. I drilled and welded the O2 bung, and mounted the intercooler.

I need to wire the MAF sensor/IAT sensor/O2 sensor, Tee the wastegate reference, and finish the intake pipes.

Since the turbo is water cooled, I had to order some fittings I couldn't buy at Home Depot or Lowes, so I need to install the fittings to the turbo and clamp the hoses which are already installed.

I'm going to put sheet metal screws in all of the rubber couplers to keep them from blowing off since I don't want to use a BOV right away.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Shouldn't put holes, just use the die grinder to make some hatches in the pipes so when you clamp the silicone down, you have "ribs" to hold it.

ttypecamaro

iTrader: (2)

Why not holes? I don't see what the problem would be. It won't leak, and the galvinized pipes won't crack if I drill pilot holes. I was going to drill through the clamp, through the rubber, and through the pipe, then put a screw in it... 2 or 3 each.

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

i wouldnt drill the holes either,
what kind of welder do u have,if u have a tig welder lay down a small bead around the ends of the pipes are,this way when u clamp the couplers they cant blow off,if ur using amig welder u just have to weld like 4-6 **** around the pipe for it to work

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Well if you think about the laws of physics for a moment, when that connector expands and tries to slide off the end of that pipe, the only thing holding it will be the screws. Another way to think about it is if you were to put a screw through the silicone and gave it a good pull, that screw will pull out of the end of the connector. Leaks wouldn't be the concern.
.
Dave I heard that one too, but I was talking about the TB - seeing not EVERYONE has access to a tig like you.

EDIT : ttype, I gess what I'm trying to say is when you have that same situation as Dave with the connector popping off, you'll be left with a clamp screwed to the pipe and a ruined connector!

ttypecamaro

iTrader: (2)

I have a cheap TIG, junk MIG, old stick welder, and a torch. Welding a bead around the pipe just right is easier said then done, at least at my skill level. I can see the arguement about the ruined connector if the screws aren't tight enough. I guess I'll try what I did on my car first...I flared the ends of the tubes with an adjustible wrentch. the only hose that has come off since then is one under the radiator that scraped on a steel plate in the road.

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

hey lol a cheap welder is better then no welder at all.
if u have tubing that just fits over the tube u are using for the ducting,cut 1/8th - 1/4 wide slices off,then u can weld/fuse those to the ends were the couplers will be clamped.easier then welding a small bead all the way around and just as effective.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Yep, could even use the same size pipe and cut it 1/4" like Dave said. Then cut it lenghtwise to create a "C" shape and weld that to the pipe.

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

that works as well didnt even think of that

ttypecamaro

iTrader: (2)

Where should I mount The IAT sensor?

My best guess was right after the MAF since the ECM will make fuel and spark adjustments based on the MAF readings. Due to the turbo and intercooler the temperature of the air will be changing a lot without accurate correlation to the total mass of the air entering the engine and the calculated load (LV8) value, but rather the efficiency of the intercooler.

On the other hand, maybe it should be as close to the intake manifold as possible to allow tuning adjustments to prevent detonation.

In summary:
IAT close to MAF ==> accurate stoichiometric fueling
IAT close to intake manifold ==> temp compensation for detonation prevention

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

lol mines not even in the ducting, i didnt have a bung to weld into the piping, si i left it zip tied under the hood,forgot all about it till u posted this lmao,when i switch over to the new twin turbo engine im gonna install it in th epipe before the tb

edit ---------------------
btw check out my thread in the fabrication section or the v6 section might me something u might be interested in doing,or possibly having ur brother buy when they go into production

ttypecamaro

iTrader: (2)

I saw that thread, good stuff... maybe in a year or so.

I finished the turbo project finally.





At 5psi (turbo too small, who cares) I busted out laughing when I floored it. It sounds sweet but its still soooo slowwww!!

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

looking good .yeah that turbo is prolly way undersized for that thing,anyways how much better then stock? u need a t3/t4 for that thing.
whats the specs on that turbo anyways?
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hows it run?

ttypecamaro

iTrader: (2)

It runs great, other than its slow... not too much lag...5psi...spikes to 6psi when it shifts.

Garrett turbo:
T3 compressor
.42AR
50 trim (I measured it to be a 49 trim)
T3C turbine
.48AR
internally wastegated

I ran two of these on my 355 (5.8L). half of that is 2.9L. So I know it has worked for this displacement.

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

hmm when i was looking at compressor maps even a 60 trim t3 looked a lil small.
id imaginge that thing spools up pretty dam fast.cause hell my .63 to4 spools up fast.
did u pull any timing or anything from the motor?i ran mine +6* base so did doward when he did his,though doward started with a 16 or 18g turbo i belive

ttypecamaro

iTrader: (2)

I haven't touched the timing from stock. it feels like it could use a few degrees to crispen the response a little. I think I'm gonna leave it at stock untill after I raise the boost a little, then decide. He's running 93 octane so it should be fine for a few more psi and maybe a few degrees.

It felt faster on mid-range, I can't help to compare it to my friend's roached-out supercharged civic that dynoed at 135whp

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

yeah its prolly getting chocked up high by that small turbine housing.id say u can bump in 6 degrees base uptill 9 psi and be safe,though id keep an eye on it if u do,id imagine that smaller turbo prolly heats up the air more then the t4 does .
the one thing i noticed is the more base timing i put in it the longer it took to spool,pulling timing down low will make it spool really dam fast