usc iroc

Hey fellow 3rd Gen members... I am new to the DIY Prom but quick to learn and willing to listen. I have read a lot of posts, threads, articles, and know that I have just started and will never fully know it all. I have a custom prom from Performance Resource that I purchased around 13 years ago when I first modified the car. I have recently rebuilt the motor and made more mods and decided to tune it myself. I using Moates equipment and TunerPro program. Car has a 165ecm and $6E. I thought I would start with the stock ARAP bin file since it never really ran "happy" in the past but the car will not even start with it. I compared it to the Perf Res prom I have and there is a lot of extreme differences. I went straight to the VATS and matched it to the stock prom and it tried to fired but that's it. I would like to get some opinions on the Perf Resource bin file. I have heard a lot of good things about the ARAP file and figured that would be a great base to start but if it want run then no data. I am running 383cid, 24lb/hr injectors, stealth ram intake, 200cc Alum heads, Comp Cam, 58mm throttle body, air entry gutted from MAF to filters.

utilityguy2

iTrader: (1)

We are talking about a 89 350/383 auto, correct? If so, I don't see how it can run at all with the PR bin. The rev limiter is set to 457 rpms at which point the fuel pump would shut off. Unless you are running a manual fuel pump of some sort.
Looking through this file, almost every parameter and table has been modified or changed from a stock bin. Never have seen one with this many differences.

usc iroc

Yes...auto, 350/383 auto. I know...there are a lot of parameters and tables WAY different compared to the stock ARAP bin. I figured I would start fresh with the ARAP but car will only turn over but want fire. Once I turned the VATS off it would fire up then shut back off then wouldn't fire up again. I have been trying to learn more about programing and the biggest thing I see is learning from doing it but if I can't get it to run then I have no baseline to tweek. Also back when I built the original motor I tried the 24# inj and it ran way rich and kept kicking up the O2 rich code. We put the ADS 19# injectors back in and it ran 100 times better but always seemed like it needed a little more tuning. I know with the setup I have now the 19# would never keep up....the 24# may even be a little to small....Need some help for sure.

utilityguy2

iTrader: (1)

Are you using the PR memcal and trying to change the programming? if so, you may have the offsets wrong. It should start on the stock ARAP with VATS turned off. What EEprom are you using?

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

Yep, could be offset is wrong

usc iroc

No..I tried to just upload ARAP and turn the VATS off just to get started on my long road to tweeking and tuning but it want run. It fired up then right back off. The PR memcal has such extreme differences I am worried about trying to tweek it. Some of a few wild differences with the PR are
PR Memcal ARAP
single fire set at 4.10 22.36
double fire 7.02 22.36
#of cylinders 08 00
mask ID AA 6E
check sum 4C5C 5BE6
Stoich AFR 2.63 14.73
Minimum Enrich Async Pulse Width 32.94 1.69
Max " " " " 36.80 5.55

Just to show a few examples....

27SF512 memcal

I am hoping that someone can help me out. I am itching to get rolling. At this point the PR prom with the 24# inj runs way rich??

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The PR BIN is neither $32 or $6E. Without the MaskID would need to compare it to other BINs that run in the '7165 ECM to find out what it is. There is Aussie code that runs in the '808 ECM that is very similar to the '7165 ECM.

As far as US based '7165 code, the only other one that I know of is the truck single TBI code.

RBob.

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

Yes, it does sound like the xdf file is wrong that you are using. Are you using an offset of 8000 to burn the sst27sf512 eprom?

utilityguy2

iTrader: (1)

RBob would be the expert but I did a quick comparison and it does appear to be $6E and a lot of parameters are correct for ARAP but others seem slightly off and checksum has been disabled with AA. He said it never did run right on the PR bin so I think someone without much experience tried to tune it. I just don't know how it ran with the rpm limiter below idle speed. I think with the ARAP properly programmed it will actually run pretty good.

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

A lot of those aftermarket companies do things to the chips after they make them to make them un-readable or scrambled. I have heard of one company that actually cut a leg off of one of theirs.

usc iroc

.....................................................PR Memcal ....vs.....ARAP
single fire set at ................................4.10 ....................22.36
double fire ........................................7.02 ....................22.36
#of cylinders..................................... 08 ........................00
mask ID .............................................AA...................... 6E
check sum......................................... 4C5C.................. 5BE6
Stoich AFR .........................................2.63...................14.73
Minimum Enrich Async Pulse Width..... ....32.94................. 1.69
Max " " " " ..........................................36.80................. 5.55

I tired to do a side by side comparison above for you guys to see. It has some strange settings compared to others I have reviewed.
RBob...I will check the offset codes when I get home and post them. Im using a burn 2 and TunerPro to read and burn the proms. The mask ID that comes up on the PR prom is AA??

RBob

iTrader: (1)

A MaskID of $AA is used to disable the checksum calculation. So not only do we not know which mask was used, but also can't tell if the PROM has been read correctly.

For the 27SF512 use chip offset of $C000 - $FFFF

RBob.

usc iroc

Thanks...I will use that offset with the ARAP bin file tomorrow at lunch and see what happens and post results. I appreciate the help guys.

usc iroc

Alright...I checked and the burn 2 was using a 00C000 - 00FFFF offset which is what the instructions show. I burned another prom using the ARAP bin and the offset you suggested and it just spins over....doesn't try to start.

That's what baffles me...why would it fire up and run with the PR prom but not the ARAP. I even burn the PR data onto another prom and it fired right up using the 00C000 - 00FFFF offset.

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

Try it using a bin that was meant for an Fbody car not a Corvette and see.

usc iroc

Do you or anyone else have or know where I could find a stock bin file? My car was originally equipped with the 305 TPI but I changed it around 13 years ago to the stroker motor and had the PR prom made. Wish I had the old hypertech prom that was in it with the 305

EagleMark

There's a couple bin files here:
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/gearhead-efi/

ARAP is a 16k bin?

To read/write a stock chip
Chip 27C128 16k bin file (16384 bytes)
Chip Address and Buffer Address
000000 -> 003FFF

To read/write on a 27FS512 chip
16k (16384)
27SF512
Buffer Start -> End
000000 -> 003FFF
Chip Start -> End
00C000 -> 00FFFF

RBob

iTrader: (1)

usc iroc, one thing to remember about ARAP, is that it takes two full engine revolutions before it starts to inject fuel. May want to change that table and/or make sure that you are cranking the engine long enough.

Does the SES/CEL do the key-on blink? That is, at key-on, engine-off, the SES/CEL turns on briefly, blinks off then turns on solid. Can repeat the test after a minimum of 10 seconds of key-off.

Can also try a noid light to see that the injectors are firing, along with a fuel pressure gauge to make sure that there is fuel pressure during the long cranking interval.

RBob.

usc iroc

Great advice. All the above is good to go.

Funny thing is I downloaded another bin file for a 89 vette and it fired right up. So I compared that bin with the ARAP bin and the only differences is below.
...........................................vette bin..............arap
Check Sum.............................5A08...................5BE6
IAC Target Speed Drive.............37.50..................25
"...............park/neutral............37.50...................75

Not sure why any of the above would have kept it from running using the ARAP and run with the vette bin but it did. Now time for some tuning. Planning on putting A LOT of miles on it this weekend. I am sure I will be leaning on you guys for guidance so stay close and THANKS for helping me get this far.

usc iroc

Alright...I ran the vette bin file I found, which wasn't much diff than the ARAP. Car didn't seem to like it. Driveability was a little rough and the readings were all over the place. I found a less aggressive stock L98 bin and the car ran on it but wasn't able to do a road trip. Question though....I have been experiencing excessive blow by. I use to have the PCV valve in the driver valve cover and piped to the bottom of the stealthram intake plenum and a Mr. Gasket breather popped into the passenger side valve cover. well I noticed it was blowing oil out of the dipstick. I removed the breather and it would blow a little out of the hole where the breather was. So I left the PCV valve hooked up and ran a vacuum line from the passenger side valve cover to the Accel 58mm throttle body. Well it is back to blowing oil out of dipstick. Any ideas or suggestions?

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

You can't tune around mechanical issues.

Fix the mechanical issues then tune.

usc iroc

I agree...that's why I asked you guys for suggestions. I tried installing the PCV system back to stock specs and that didn't work.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

No, it won't.

excessive blow by is a large mechanical issue that short of rebuilding or replacing the engine there is no easy fix.

usc iroc

My my my...aren't we quick to tear a motor down. You must be a parts dealer...J/K Excessive blowby is not always an issue that requires tearing the motor down. There are a lot of posts on here where excessive blowby was the problem and it turned out to be an easier fix than tearing the motor down. Hopefully mine will be as well. I have some things to try this weekend that hopefully will fix this. If not then oh well...pull it.. fix it and put her back in and burn some rubber. WOOHOO

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Show me something other than worn rings or worn cylinders that causes "excessive blowby". Both of these problems require a rebuild (and machining) to repair.

EagleMark

A PCV system is just to ventilate. Hook it up properly, using a vacuum line to a wrong port won't help. What the PCV valve allows through it into intake has to be vented in somewhere else... filtered air in!

If it's working properly it will never help crankcase pressures that are caused by blow by.

I don't know of any other definition of Blow By? It is caused by compression blowing past rings into crankcase. Not sure how to fix that without a teardown?

Some overly built motors will pulse crankcase pressure from pistons moving up and down. But if it's more positive pressure then can be vented by PCV valve the excess should come out the breather/filtered air coming in. I've seen one fancy aftermarket breather you plug in vavle cover that had a one way valve, this was to stop oil from wetting filter during the pusling occurence,good idea for a clean motor and no wet breather, bad idea for motor... this makes pulse blow out places like dipstick if your lucky and if not blow out gaskets.

usc iroc

Mine actually turned out to be the rings weren't seated yet. The more miles I have put on it the better it is running and the blowby or air/smoke that is coming out of my passenger valve cover has almost gone. Anyway...whatever the case may be its getting better and Im happy