Matto'85TA

What is the largest motor that will fit in a '85 TA? I want to retain powersteering, stock hood, wipers/washer and power brakes. The AC has been removed already and I have an electric fan.. So what is the largest that will fit?

Thanks,

Matt

87WS6

iTrader: (1)

As long as it's a small block and the heads are drilled for accessory brackets you should be set. So I am thinking not anything above 400 basically. I think a 427 is a stroked something else but I am not positive.

Anyone who knows more than me should feel free to jump in But I think that I am right on target just not quite specific enough.

Black363IROCZ

anything SBC will retain "stock appearance". I think they've gotten them out to 480cid

bigals87z28

never saw a 480 small block, but the new motown block can be bored and stroked to a 454 small block. Its about the same size as a 350 or 305. No one would know the difference till you ran a 11 sec 1/4 mile.

Matto'85TA

Where can I found out more on this Motown block? What is it originally?

Thanks,

Matt

RB83L69

A Motown block is originally ..... a Motown block. It is originally found in ..... the store. It is aftermarket, with a raised cam bore and IIRC tall decks also, to accomodate a longer stroke than a GM block can. It is a very expensive motor to build, just for the few CIs it adds, for a street motor. It is for people in racing classes that don't have CI or stock-block rules, and where the prize money justifies the expense. It is possible to build SBCs in the 500 CI neighborhood with some of the aftermarket blocks.

It is possible to get a stock 400 block up to 434 without too much sweat, using the right internals.

So basically, the largest SBC that will accomodate stock accessories is something based on a stock 400 block or an aftermarket one with the same dimensions (stock deck height, stock cam location).

wingnut

I have the factory hood on my car but had to use a 2" drop base air filter with 3" element. It is probably way too restrictive for my engine, but like you, I like the sleeper look.

SweetS10v8

Mowtown Block: Up to 454ci $1700 for block + shipping. It should come ready to go(havent bought one to know). After you run the motor, you can bore it .030 over, then again .060 and even more safely(thats how they get a 454, more boring.

Factory GM 400: Up to 434ci $100-400 for block and $500+ for all the machine work(bore, hone, line bore, deck, clearance block, debur, hot tank, magnaflux...etc) The GM 400ci can be bored .030 and .060, but at .060 the cylinder walls are getting thin, more than .060 is unsafe and requires block filler to keep the cylinder walls from flexing.

Its all a matter of choice. You can always do the GM 400 for cheaper than I said, but who wants to skim on this expencive of a motor. If you want to skim buy a expencive forged 400 rotating assembly. Run with 400-406ci and save a lot of cash, but if you need to brag about your 427/434/454 small block youll have to pay to do that!

Also remember if you take a block and bore it more than what it phiscally needs to be good, your waisting the amount of lives the block has. Thats why I laugh at people who automatcally bore their standard bore 350 to .060 over. In soing that you totally waisted a motor that could have run at .030 over for 100k miles. They think those 5ci are actually going to make a noticable difference!

Just my $.02

Matto'85TA

I'm thinking the 400 block is the way to go for me. How much hp and tq is possible with the 400? I want to keep EFI so would tpi be ok or would a miniram better. This is gonna be a summer project but I want to know what I'm getting myself into and what money is needed cause right now money is tight(in college). During the summer money wont be a huge problem.

Thanks,

Matt

Black363IROCZ

http://www.speedomotive.com/SB%20CHE...RANK%20KIT.htm
dart tall deck block + this kit.

wingnut

.040" over is also a common size, hence the 408 SBC.

Air_Adam

400 wont look stock... too many freeze plugs.

Whatever you can do to a 350 block will look stock (327, 350, 383, 396, etc)

Matto'85TA

Well, I'm more concerned about keeping stock appearances outside( stock hood) and retain power steering, brakes, etc. Basically want the biggest motor that will fit in the bay with the stock hood and the stock power steering, master cylinder/brake booster, wiper/washers, etc.

Thanks,

Matt

bigals87z28

hummm a regular 305 with a HSR in a firebird will cause a change of hood! It all depends on parts. An 427 C5R block will sit pretty low in the engine bay and nothing will have to be modified, only engine and trans mounts. What is your goal? If you want a 700hp mill, your gunna have to think about a big block or some type of power adder.

Matto'85TA

700hp!! Nah, I'm not looking for that much. the car will be a daily driver( almost, I dont drive EVERY single day) I just want something that will beat most at stoplights, and something that I can run at the track without bein embarrassed. I'd like to at least run in Vette territory. Though it would be even nicer to beat a new Z06

Thanks for all the suggestions. Keep 'em coming!

Matt

robbob

How about Edelbrocks e-tec FI 350,has 440 hp,that should beat most. Or maybe a RamJet 502,not sure if the 502 will fit though.

Matto'85TA

Ramjet 502 huh? Maybe I should say screw stock look and drop that in! Serously, I want a 502 and if I had the cash I'd get one, but unfortunatly I am only a college kid right now. I looked at that engine but I want something I can put togather myself. I'd like to tell people I built the engine that just smoked them.

thanks

Matt

bigals87z28

building your own is cool, but you get a warrenty from GM if you get a crate!! A ZZ4 crate or 385 fast burn is a good move. You better move fast... next gen Z06 is right around the corner, and rumor has it, it will stomp all snakes and horses... even the italian breed. Its gunna be 300lbs ligher and a 475-500hp motor... that 502 ram jet is looking pretty good right about now eh?

Matto'85TA

My cash is limited. Is it cheaper to build the engine myself, or cheaper to go crate? I need to have money leftover to beef up the rest of the drivetrain and the chassis.

Maybe I should just save for the :hail: Ramjet 502.

SweetS10v8

Unless you find the 400s that have the same freeze plugs as a 350. they arent as common but are the big thing for circle track racing around here, where you must have a stock motor.

And if you can see the freeze plugs, GET BIGGER HEADERS...lol

Kingtal0n

<b>Well, I'm more concerned about keeping stock appearances outside( stock hood) and retain power steering, brakes, etc. Basically want the biggest motor that will fit in the bay with the stock hood and the stock power steering, master cylinder/brake booster, wiper/washers, etc. </b>

so you dont care what it looks like under the hood?
save up and put a supercharger on it, thats the simplest and easiest and most affordable way in my opinion. even with a stock motor you can run some intercooled boost and push into the 11's. thats why i say cheaper and easier... a procharger may be $3000 but how much would building a 400 and then the hassle with the fuel infection cost? better just to FMU and booster pump over the stock computer with some boost retard to make it safe. or if you like chip burning the skys the limit...

Matto'85TA

Yea, under the hood I could care less. I just want to keep everything else stock( yes, i will be upgrading the entire drivetrain, and strengthing the chassis)
I thought supercharger, but my 305 needs to be rebuilt most likely. I dont think it will take boost for very long. That is also why I dont use nitrous.

Thanks,

Matt

Matto'85TA

OK, is 396 a 350 that is stroked and bored? I ask cuase I just found out I can get a 350 for free.

How much does a engine rebuild cost if I did most of the work myself?

Thanks,

Matt

Kingtal0n

first ask yourself, do you feel lucky.

if you feel really really lucky, then you can go ahead mic the bore and order pistons the appropriate size.

if you DONT feel lucky, and you plan on rebuilding anyways, the first step is machine work. have them sonic test, hone with deck plates, bore it to the size you want, etc etc...

then after thats done, you ask another important question.

will you ever:
a: run more than 150 shot of nitrous
b: run boost
c: run over 6500 rpms.

if you answered yes to a, b, or c, then chances are you will need a forged crank, forged pistons, and forged rods. unless you feel really really lucky of course.

assuming you dont want a, b, or c, you can pick up a decent complete rotating assy for under $1000 including the bearings and most gaskets for the bottom end.
if you DO need forged components (or dont feel lucky) you may spend upwards of $1800 on key components, PLUS the gaskets and bearings and basics that go along with it.
-this concludes the bottom end.

now for the top. is it a pre-86 block? if so your going to need a flat tappet cam, unless you like spending $ on retro fit lifters.
thats the easy part. now the horsepower goals.

want to make it fast? you need good heads, plain and simple. AFRs are recommended to anyone with the cash, try $1250~ out of the box, plus any machining or head work you want done.
also check out pro-line (another name now?) and do some searching, there are plenty of great heads out there. use a good head gasket!

and now the induction. do you like the cheap effectiveness of a carbeurator? its cheap, and it works.
want to stay EFI? many many options there also. if your goals are more than 330 horsepower on motor, forget TPI. you will want a stealthram if your budget is tight, or a mini-ram if you want to spend the $. for EFI you need a computer, either use the stock computer and burn chips, or use aftermarket and spend mad cashflow. a good aftermarket is commander 950, or TEC3. FAST and Accel DFI are out of most peoples price range...

assuming you do the labor rebuilding a 350 to, say, 383 (my and many other people's choice for the 350) it could cost anywhere from $500 to $5000 depending on the parts you choose from above. just remember, all the forged steel bottom end parts you buy wont make it fast. its the heads, cam, intake that make power, and make sure they match your drivertrain.

example: dont put a 234/244 @ .050 duration cam into a 383 with TPI and 2.73 gears / stock stall converter. BAD idea.

also dont put a XE262 cam (218/224 @ .050) into a car with 4.11's, 5,000 rpm stall, and a mini-ram. bad idea.

and now thats over with, others will add insight im sure. (flame retardant suit enabled)

Matto'85TA

Thanks for all the info Kingtal0n!!!
I most likely wont be running boost and i wont be revving that high. As far as nitrous goes it wont be more than 150 shot, probably 100 cause I dont like to push it with that. I prefer NA motors. So I don't think I'll need forged parts. I still would like to keep the TPI if possible(saves me money and trouble). 330 HP sounds good to me. What is the limit in torque with TPI? I dont want to build a seriuos race car here. It will be my normal car that will be taken to the strip in the summer. I just want to hold its own at stoplights and not get stomped at the strip by some mustang or r!cer.

Thanks,

Matt

Kingtal0n

<b>What is the limit in torque with TPI?</b>

Well i could simply give you a rough answer about any old 350 sbc pulling in 95%VE would probably be close enough, (with good heads of course) but instead i think you should do a little research.


https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...peak+resonance

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...peak+resonance

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...peak+resonance

Read and have fun

Air_Adam

Yep, 0.030" overbore on the 350 block and, I think, a 3.85" stroker crank. I can't really say how much $$ to build it though, I havent done it.

bigals87z28

there is also the original 396 big block.

Abaddon_fallen1

I have HOT ROD issue with a guy that did a buick 455 swap in his (forget what year) Trans Am. I did some research and as all of us GM guys (not just chevy and pontiac) should know, a 455 Buick with aluminum heads weighs less that your small block chevy. Some food for though.


Plus those Buicks have A LOT of low end grunt when built right.

Abaddon_fallen1

Oh yeah, that's an all iron small block Chevy.

Matto'85TA

Well, the money situation has gotten considerbly worse. I just found out I am gonna have to pay for college all by myself. My parents really can't afford a loan. I really don't want to ask them either. They already bailed me out when my transmission went in 2002.

So I need some ideas of getting some decent performance in my car. Either through engine swap, or stroker kit, or anything. I'm open to all ideas.

This is the setup I have currently: 1985 Trans Am, 305 TPI out of a '89 camaro, AC delete, electric fan, AIR and smog pump removal, still got the 1985 ECM and harness, open rear-unsure of gear ratio, 700R-4, steel driveshaft, Accel cap and rotor, platinum plugs, original Multec style injectors(some probably leaking), performance muffler. The cat is present but it sounds hollow when tapped on, I'm removing it this winter.

The engine is probably in need of a rebuild, had been run on low oil for 30-40 min, overheated a few times, hasnt run the same since.

Thanks,

Matt

derrickk

I have a magazine where a 454 big block was put into an 85 Z28. It kept the stock look. It was a tight fit but really only had to change some minor things including the front springs to account for the weight. If I can track down the mag, I can supply a parts list.

MrDude_1

a low buck engine swap would be either a reman or crate 350 long or short block and you just pop your TPI on it, swap injectors and chips and go.

Matto'85TA

derrick- That would be cool.


Thanks all, still open to suggestions or comments.

Matt

89CamaroRS350

i think u should definitely big block it and a great motor would be a 454 not sure on how it fits side to side or fowards and backwards but u could play with it up and down should work awesome so i would go big block 454

88Camaro350

I would just stay small block. Get a decent 350 block and either rebuild it yourself or buy a cheap crate. I needed a motor ASAP and I am also a poor college student so I went with the 1500$ anemic caprice roller 350. I had originally planned on staying TBI so It would be cheaper..........Things changed.

I ended up with a 670cfm holley street avenger, brand new proform HEI distributor, holley street dominator intake...I got all that in the mail and went...damn this 2.5'' flowmaster catback and cheap headers isn't gonna cut it.

Next thing I know a set of hedman longtubes, and everything for true duals was in the mail. There I was with brand new everything...broke as I could be LOL.

That motor was still weak...well still is. It runs like a top and is a good street motor. I wanted it for the 9.6:1 compression and the roller cam/lifters. I added a lt4 cam recently and it really woke it up. Once I get the 3.73s and posi in I think I'll have a decent very very low 14 second car or very very high 13's.

I think I ended up spending 2800$ on everything. I since changed the exhaust again. Now Im working on heads. I hope to have a decent 375hp engine by next summer. I think some 200cc E-tecs and a comp cam 270 should do it

1989RS

a 502 will fit, look at my friends car, 8.2L Trans Am, it is running and driving now

bigals87z28

yummmmmm 502... must... have... motor.... arrr!!

Bitchin89RS

My cousin had the same question until he found his favorite engine... the 377.. take the 400 SB and destroke it... you can build those things to rev to 10,000 RPM's =) bad@$$ lowend torque and a wicked topend = really fast if you build it right...

88IROC350TPI

In my opinion a 377 is a waste of a 400 ...I really dont see any point in taking away cubes unless you need to for certain racing classes. You can make a 400 (or just about any motor) rev to 10,000RPM with the right parts + more cubes = more power.

Bitchin89RS

It's almost impossible to get any type of long stroke V8 to rev that high.. the 377 can compete with any type of 383 or 427... any stroker b/c that 10K range has a whole lot of top and and the bottom and ain't to shabby... I mean sure it doesn't have the same amout of torque as a 383 but the fact that a 377 can hit a power-band of 4000 RPM and go up to 10k a 383 would get smoked in a street\road race....

88IROC350TPI

In a street car spinning to 10k would really suck ....In order to stay in your powerband you'd need insane gears and a real high converter (thus losing streetability). A typical motors powerband width is only like 2000-3000RPM'ish. So for instance a motor will not have a powerband of 4000-10,000RPM it'll be more like 8,000-10,000RPM. Sure the motor may still pull like crazy below 8,000RPM but to get the best ET you're gonna need A LOT of converter and gearing

Now you're driving around the street in your 377 right ...You gotta 4000RPM stall, and 4.10 gears and you're spinning to 10,000RPM. You pull up next to a mirror image of your car (same car/weight/traction) with a 383 or 400 small block, 3000RPM stall, 3.73 gear and hes spinning to 6000RPM. Even if hes making less peak HP then you are your still going to lose because his drivetrain is setup better than yours ...he can get into his powerband faster. I'm sure you'd win in a 1/2 mile race though ...not 1/4.

Now, same thing only you have a 8000RPM stall with a transbrake, 4.56+ gears, ect .....you'd smoke him (thats if you could even drive it down the street)

Bitchin89RS

Very true... but street race's usually last alot longer than 1/4... all it boils down to is what setup you have not just an engine... you can have the biggest engine and **** gears and you wouldn't break a 13 in the 1/4

Kingtal0n

<b>It's almost impossible to get any type of long stroke V8 to rev that high</b>

Thats what everyone thought 30 years ago. how old are you?

any engine with the right valve train can spin to any rpm. parts breakage is going to be dependant on what you put into the bottom end and how its assembled... power is going to be dependant on valvetrain and flow.

so i can take a 383 and spin it to 10,000 RPMS if i wanted. a solid roller and some AFR220's would put me there perfectly fine. It would make plenty of power, and with the right forged parts it would probably last a while too.

and if you consider a 383 a "long stroke" and "bad for revving" then why do people choose big block 427's to spin to 9000 RPMS instead of somthing with a shorter stroke? how about top fuelers... they dont spin to 8000 with a 500+cubic inch motor? its all in how its built. Your right about one thing though, a shorter stroke will apply less piston speed thus allowing a higher RPM per manufacturer's max piston speed recommendation. and with a shorter stroke generally you wind up with a lighter bottom end as well.

CrazyHawaiian

I think Kingtal0n hit the nail on the head. The parts you choose will dictate how the motor performs, not the displacement. It is true that some bore/stroke setups are really good for high rev applications, but that does not exclude the rest of the motors out there. With the right parts any displacement motor can do what you want.

For those of you interested in the Motown blocks, check out World Products Inc. After reading up on how these blocks are made, I am 100% certain I will be using a Motown block when I Build my next motor (400+!). I'm currently boosting a stock 120k mi L98 and I dont consider the setup reliable. I know since I'm using forced induction, I dont really NEED the extra CI (could make up for it with more boost), but I need a reliable built motor and I wanted to do something different. Something extreme that will compete with all the 500+ hp cars in my car club. 20 psi (intercooled) @ 7,500+ rpm and a 6 speed!! Crazy stuff like that!!

iroczman380

10 grand on a 383!!! Good luck achieving that one. You better have a steep bank acount, otherwise it will throw a rod before you get half way there. I think it can be done but why????
No way in hell is a 383's max horsepower Rpm going to be anywhere near 10 grand. If your going to rev that high id suggest a 355, 400,427, or 377. a 383 would be a big challenge.

Just my o2cents

IROCZMAN380

Kingtal0n

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok IrocZman, what stroke do you think a 400 Has? how about a 427? your telling me that the bigger bore of the 400 makes the crank withstand more RPMS? I dont understand...
and what about the 427? because its a "big block" you think it can take more RPMS? Where did that come from? it has an even BIGGER stroke! max rpm potention is in the valvetrain and induction, like i said before. not the length of the stroke, period. of this i am sure...

Matto'85TA

Well, i havent yet decided what exactly to do. What do you think would be best for me?
The car will be a daily driver, decent gas mileage would be nice but not necessary(poor college kid, but i dont drive a ton during school), would like around 300HP, 375+TQ.Definitly needs to be fuel injected, also needs to work with the factory guages and tranny. I have a 700r-4, was rebiult in Spring 2002. I dont have tons of cash, I have never built an engine, though I am willing to spend my time on it, I also have a few freinds who have done this. I'm thinking maybe a 350 with mods or a 383.

How much $$$ would I be looking at? I am pretty sure I can get a 350 block for free, the rotationg assembly too maybe. I also can reuse my TPI stuff, and I have a '86 ECM lieing around somewhere. I got a '86 parts car that has a TPI engine, the guy says its a 350, but i dont think it is cause the 350's didnt come to '87 i thought.

Anyways whats your opinion? I mainly want a better engine for stop light races and for the 1/4 mile.

Thanks for all the info.

Matt

88IROC350TPI

woah you just went from wanting to build the hugest small block possible to being a broke college kid wanting 300HP ...find yourself a stock 350 rebuild it to stock specs, slap on some half decent heads, a little cam ...bam 300HP+

no need for fancy crap or exotic motors. I'd laugh at a guy with a 400+ ci motor making less than 300HP

92 zzz28

Someone mentioned early in this about using a Motown block as a foundation for a large displacement small block. The Motown block is a great choice because it is not as expensive as a Bowtie block and it also doesn't have the raised cam that bowtie blocks have. This means that expensive aftermarket cam drives are not needed. Motown blocks are available in 4" and 4.125" bores and 350 or 400 mains. That means, like others said, you could build yourself a 454 or larger SBC. GMHTP mag. had a pretty good article on their website about this block. Check out there webpage and you can read about it yourself if you are still interested in huge displacement SBCs.