aaron7

iTrader: (7)

I'm dropping a 350 that's currently in a 74 Nova into my 86 Camaro, but I'd like to try and ID it before I get it out, to do some research it. (can't see the #'s when in the car)

I have been told that it is a late 60's early 70's block. What could I look for to see what year it is, besides that #'s?

It has the front-of-the-intake oil fill... and I guess that's old!

RB83L69

All blocks have the front oil fill. Intakes quit having it in the lates 60s though. A 74 intake wouldn't have had it.... but who knows, just because this engine was last observed wrapped in that sheet metal, may have nothing whatsoever to do with the parts it's built out of.

Get the casting #, and the numbers that are close to it. Those will tell when it was made. Not that it makes much difference other than historical curiosity, and of course, making sure that it's really a 4" bore large-journal block.

ME Leigh

Thats a really old engine, definitely not a 350.

aaron7

iTrader: (7)

Why so?

Yah it has a 6" filler tube right in front, in the center on the intake.

I'll get the #'s as soon as I can! Is there anything else to look for?

Air_Adam

The 350 has been made since 1967. The best way to find out what it is is to check out the casting number on the block, which will tell you if its a LJ or SJ block, because they had different numbers.

Then pop off the valve covers and see what heads you got.

ME Leigh

Because they started building 350's in late 68 and 69. They did not have filler tube in the front. Unless some complete moron swapped the intake.

RB83L69

The oil filler tube thing is a part of the intake. It is not part of the block. Anybody can stick any intake they want onto any block (we're talking SBCs here after all). An intake with a fill tube will fit directly onto any block at all, and onto any heads with the 86-back bolt pattern without modification, or onto any 87-up heads until the Vortecs by slotting the 2 center bolt holes on each side. So the fact that the intake has an oil fill tube on it offers no clue whatsoever as to what the motor is.

Get the block casting number. Without that, all else is just guessing and conjecture, and is basically a waste of your time and the site's bandwidth.

The 350 first appeared in 67, in the Camaro SS. It was first used in other vehicles in 69. It has always been a large journal block.

But that has nothing particularly to do with the motor that's in that car, or the intake oil fill tube.

aaron7

iTrader: (7)

ahhh ok. The intake is an Edelbrock T1 or something like that. No other markings!

I'll get the #'s today and post them later.

Air_Adam

No, GM started making the 350 late in 1966 for the SS350 Camaros for 1967.

Apeiron

Could be an Edelbrock Tarantula maybe? Some kind of hopelessly outdated design, anyway.

aaron7

iTrader: (7)

Ok, this is what I can see from the front passenger side of the motor (can't see the back #'s)

Big numbers: T04I5HV
Small: 152079994

The smaller # is very worn away, and I'm not sure about the "152"


I can't find any info online, help!


Oh, and the intake says TM4 or something like that.

RB83L69

The "T" (Tonowanda engine plant) is the engine part #. If you could look that up, it would tell you what motor the block was originally built into. Useless now except as a curiosity. Most of the "T" engines went into trucks.

The "152" number was the vehicle's VIN. Useless.

The number you need is the casting #; back of the block, top of bell housing flange, behind the driver's side head.

92TRANSAMWS6

T04I5HV

T=Tonawonda

04=April

The I should be a 1

15=15th day of the month

HV=1965 Corvette 327

Got that from here

http://www.nastyz28.com/spmenu.html

aaron7

iTrader: (7)

Neat! Is that a good motor? Worth putting in? Will it be hard to mate stuff up to the 86 Camaro?

Air_Adam

They are OK, but not as good as a 350.

Now what I think you should do with that is sell it for an absurd amount of money to a guy trying to restore an old Corvette or something, and use your new-found wealth to build a healthy 350.

If its still in its original configuration though, it wouldn't work in your car with the heads it has anyway. No bolt holes for your accessories.

aaron7

iTrader: (7)

Well, weird thing is, it has the same alternator bracket as my 84 L69 did! And the alternator has the same wiring connector as the 86 I think. Maybe it has newer heads on it? I'll have to get the #'s off of them.

If you were able to get all that info from the front #'s, what does the one in the back tell you?

Wish I could sell the thing (I would in a heartbeat!), but I have no idea how to go about it.

ME Leigh

Cool i never knew they put 350's in 67 SS's. But i did know that they started putting 350's in "real" cars in 69.

Apeiron

It probably has newer heads if it has the long waterpump accessory setup.

Air_Adam

Yup, the 350 debut was in the Camaro SS in 1967. It was the only car in 1967 and 1968 that could have the 350. I think MAYBE the Chevelle did in '68, but I'm not sure.

1969+ everything got it.... Camaro, Corvette, Nova, Chevelle....

aaron7

iTrader: (7)

How could I tell if it has a long water pump or not?

RB83L69

Look at it.

Doesn't really matter what kind is on it. It's a used water pump. Unbolt it and throw it away, and put on the kind you do need. The kind of WP that's on a used block when you get it is totally trivial. I wouldn't use such a one, even if it did happen to be the right kind for my car; with my luck, the thing would already be bad, and I'd lose a whole load of coolant in some spectacular way at the most inconvenient possible place and time, and I don't like that.

Get the block casting number. It will tell you what the block really is. Personally I don't trust those stampings, as they're too easy for somebody to redo after a block is decked (for maintenance or whatever). However, casting numbers are far more difficult to fake, and very very rarely lie.

If it's really a 65 327 with the correct numbers for a Vette, sell it in Hemmings or one of the Vette mags, to somebody that really needs it. It's not a 350, if it's a 65, that's for sure.

aaron7

iTrader: (7)

Well, I don't have another water pump to compare it against... and I don't want to just get another one till I know, so it will work with all the pulleys on the block (alt, ps pump, crank, etc.)

RB83L69

There are 3 WPs: short, long, and long/reverse.

The short one works with the alt on the left, and doesn't need the accessory bolt holes in the heads.

The long one is about 1" taller, and works with the alt on the right; and that bracket system DOES require the bolt holes.

The long/reverse works with the 87-up or thereabouts serpentine setup that runs the WP off of the back side of the belt.

You don't need to worry about what kind of pump is on it now. Get the right pump for whatever kind of accessory setup your car has, not the pump that matches whatever setup was in the last car the motor was installed in.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Uggh... Why do people have to make things so difficult?

You've got an 86 Camaro, ie one piece rear main, passengers side dipstick, etc... Get yourself a 350 core from a 86-newer pickup and save yourself the headaches of finding the right flywheel, starter, headers, etc etc etc... The advantages of a cheap old school engine are outnumbered by the problems you'll have to work around in the long run. Yes it will work, no it won't be cheap or easy. Every shortcut you take will come back and bite you in the ***.

PS. Those shortcuts will also bite everyone owner of your car after you sell it.

Check out www.nastyZ28.com and www.mortec.com for casting numbers, engine identification, etc. Then consider spending a little extra money and getting a crate motor that you know will work right the first time.

aaron7

iTrader: (7)

Hmm, you said that it will be a problem getting headers for it. I bought Summit 82-92 shorty headers, those won't work? I thought all 305 to 350 blocks were the same

Air_Adam

Headers won't be a problem. Using the factory cast manifolds might be, but headers won't be.

THEGENERAL

OK, I'll give you getting the right flywheel and starter. Its not hard at all to find them, you just got to change them Headers are all pretty much the same, there shouldnt be any troubles finding them. I dont understand what the other etc.'s are? Care to elaborate?

aaron7

iTrader: (7)

There really isn't any budget for this project. Not meaning the sky is the limit... meaning that there is NO budget! The car was $400 (totally mint, new everything... bad motor. Kid wanted it gone) and the motor (with a free 74 Nova lol) was free.

I can buy a flexplate. I have headers for a 82-92 3rd gen.

Will the starter on the 327 now work with the 82-85 flexplate? If not, I can take the LG4 starter in the Camaro now and use that, right?

I just think it will be neat to have a classic motor in a 3rd gen!

Air_Adam

Maybe, maybe not. When I put my '79 350 into my car, the '83 305 starter didn't bolt onto the block because the block had a different starter bolt pattern than the 305 did. If yours is like mine, use the LG4 starter and just drill and tap the block so its got the bolt hole you need for the LG4 starter.

RB83L69

Why? What difference does that make?

How do you know it's not some early 70s 307 with cast pistons and a 929 cam that somebody just re-stamped, or that the factory re-used the same stamping codes?

Somehow I don't think that in all of this, the right message has got through yet.

YOU NEED TO FIND OUT THE CASTING NUMBER. That tells all there is to know about the block. The stampings are OK as far as they go, but the real deal is the casting number.

Same goes for the heads. GET THE CASTING NUMBERS.

You might find that you have a motor that some Vette guy would pay $10,000 for, and you might find that you have the biggest pile of junk ever created. All of this conjecture and planning and "will this fit on that" is a waste of bandwidth, if you don't know what you've got.

I've said my say enough times now I hope, and I won't have anything else to add to this UNTIL I SEE CASTING NUMBERS. And I'm sure you've probably figured out by now that if there's any one person on this board that can tell you what you want to know about old motors, it's me. So GET THE CASTING NUMBERS.

Air_Adam

Brutally honest as usual, but he is right. You gotta find the casting numbers. For the block, its on the back, on the bellhousing flange on the drivers side.

For the heads, it will be under the valve covers between the valves somewhere.

Really, all we need are the last 3 digits of each number.

aaron7

iTrader: (7)

I can't see the #'s in the car. That was the total purpose of this thread. I have many sites where I can look up casting numbers, but I was hoping that there were other ways to do it.

When I do take the motor out, I'll run the numbers.

RB83L69

Try one of those little dental inspection mirrors and a flashlight. Maybe take it to the car wash first and stick the hose down that way, make sure it isn't all caked up with the funk.

It sucks that they put it in such a convenient place....

aaron7

iTrader: (7)

Ok, motor is out, and I'll get the #'s on the back soon.

This is off the heads:

932441
C2S 9


They seem to be 350 heads... but can anyone give me more info?

RB83L69

3932441....69-70...350..........76cc chambers

At least they're not "lightweight" castings. But still, they'll be early, low-perf, low-flow, 2-barrel smoggers.

The 4-barrel motors that year would have had 64cc heads.

Not much potential there.

It's probably not "C2S 9", rather, it's probably "C25 9. That would be the 25th day of the Cth (3rd, March) month, in a year ending in 9". "S" doesn't really exist in that code system.

aaron7

iTrader: (7)

That sucks. Guess I'll have to buy some new heads! Well, depending on what the #'s on the back of the block mean. Here they are:

BIG ones : 3956616
Small: A318

92TRANSAMWS6

www.mortec.com doesn't show a 3956616, closest they show is

3956618....302.....69....4...Z-28 Camaro
3956618....327...68-69...2
3956618....350.....69....2 or 4

Same goes for nastyz28.com

1968-69, 3955618--327-- 4--- A,F,Vette
1969, 3956618--302 4--- Z28
1969, 3956618--327 2--- fullsize
1969, 3956618--350 ---2/4---cars

aaron7

iTrader: (7)

Why can one # mean so many different motors?

Sounds like it's a junker then, right? What might the HP range be stock with this motor?

RB83L69

It's a 4" bore block. Such a block can be built into any of those motors, by using the crank & piston combo that produces that many inches and the right compression (dished, flat or dome pistons), and sliding in whatever cam, and then by bolting on whatever heads and intake and carb were called for. The block is just a block.

It's a 350 block. It's hard to guess what you're looking for in the way of "ID", other than to make sure that it's really a 350 block, which it is. The differences from one 350 block to another are trivial; certainly not worth calling it "junk". Alot different situation from heads... once you get past bore size, and year model differences such as dipstick location or roller setup or rear main seal design, a block is a block is a block is a block for the most part; but heads vary greatly.

I'd guess the HP for that motor would have been "rated" at 260 or 275 or so by the "ratings" method in use at the time. Using the current "ratings" methods, it would probably be "rated" at around 175 HP if it had been a 327 or 350 with a 2-barrel carb, and around 190-200 HP if it had a 4-barrel. Not that any of that makes any real difference, since you wouldn't be putting it back exactly the way it came. The block itself has nothing to do with the HP "rating" except for the CID that it can be made into. That is, you can just as easily take some 160 HP 76 2-barrel 350, strip all the 2-barrel heads and other crap off of it, put some decent pistons and heads and a good cam with it, and come up with a 500 HP motor; just as you can take a "370 HP" 350 block and put 882 heads and a 929 cam and -18cc pistons and a 2G on it and come up with a 160 HP motor.

But, none of the HP "ratings" have anything at all to do with the block; just like you can look at all those motors that they used that casting in, and their power output varies all over the map. It's just a block.

Where are you really going with all of this? What ar eyou trying to figure out?

aaron7

iTrader: (7)

I really don't want to rebuild a motor. Maybe gaskets and such, but no piston or crank changing. I was trying to figure out what HP this motor might make in it's current configuration, so I can see if it's worth it to drop it in as is, or just to find a different motor that already has good heads and such on it.

Now I see what you mean about the cast numbers vs the ones that are cut in on the front!


Also, is it safe to assume that the motor has the original heads?

So, from what I gather, it's a 69 350 2 barrel motor. And from what you said, that's about 175hp? Beats the LG4 in there now!

RB83L69

In no case would I recommend just sticking it in your car as is. Pop the heads off and look at the pistons. If they're dished (probably are) then LG4 heads would be a better choice than some old 2-barrel smoggers. But if it's been rebuilt, then who knows what pistons are in it. Only way to know would be to look. Then you can make a more informed decision about what heads would be appropriate.

However, what might be a 35-year-old short block is probably not real wise to put into a car, just as it is; I'd recommend pulling the oil pan, and putting a new rear main seal in it, even if you leave the rest of the bottom end as it is. Look at a main bearing and a rod bearing while you have the pan off and see what condition it's in.

I'd assume you're going to do something about the cam, since again, if it's original, or for that matter even if it's been rebuilt, it's most likelyly a 929 or a copy of it. Garbage of the lowest (well, almost the lowest) order.

Yes those heads could be the original ones that came bolted to that block, since they are correct for one of the motors that the block could have been, and with a reasonable casting date range even. Again, garbage; toss them.

aaron7

iTrader: (7)

Ok, well, I should be tearing it down either today or tomorrow, so I'll let you know what the internals are. I'll snap some pics as well.

I should have been more clear about what I meant when I said I was going to drop it in as-is. I plan on replacing all the gaskets, seals, bearings, etc. I just didn't want to buy new pistons, cranks, etc.

Klortho

But if it is a 327 and was a Corvette 327 (possibly) would it not be the 300 HP model? I know that the heads were changed according to the description, but the cam would be the same (unless it was changed) or some idiot did that to a 302, then whoever did that needs to be shot. If it is a 327, a good set of heads, intake and carb will make that car fly.

RB83L69

The heads are garbage.

Those old cams aren't worth a hoot today. We've learned alot about how to make them better since then. There's no reason to keep some old stock cam laying around, or even installed in some old block.

There's nothing about a 327 that makes it "fly" any better than a 350 built with the same parts. Think of the 327 as a 350 with some of the inches left out. Much as a 350 could be considered as a 383 with some of those inches left out.

It's a 4" block. It doesn't matter if it used to be a 327, or it used to be in a Vette, or if it used to fly. It's a 4" block with some 2-barrel truck smogger heads on it. Not much point in getting all sentimental and romantic about the possibility of some magic from ancient times having wafted up out of the sheet metal (or even fiberglass!) that it might have been wrapped in for a while back when your grandfather was a kid, and permeated the block with some special properties different from any other 4" block. Doesn't happen.

Yes of course a good set of heads and a good cam and the right pistons will make a 327 run good. They would also make a 350, 302, or a 383 run good. Problem is, he doesn't have a good set of heads and a good cam and a good set of pistons yet; he's got some old core, that needs to be torn down, the used-up parts and ones with no potential thrown away, and other ones bought and installed after machine work to the block.

At this point, the best thing that could happen, is to discover that it's still standard bore, and hasn't already been bored out .060". That would bite. If it's still std bore, it has some life left in it, probably; but if it's already been punched .060", it's all the way used up, and has no value except for its weight of cast iron.

All of that about "maybe it's a 327 out of a Vette" is useless drivel.

aaron7

iTrader: (7)

Ok, so, once I tell you what the pistons look like, you'll be able to tell me if it's worth it or not?

I'm not going as far as replacing those. I'll get new heads, cam, intake, carb, etc., but no pistons. Just getting into way too much $$.

This is supposed to be a budget project, how does Car Craft do it?!

RB83L69

I wish when I called people looking for parts or machine work, that they would salivate over the opportunity to have me mention their name address and phone number, like they do over Car Craft or any of those mags, and give me stuff for free too. Oh well.

Yeah once you get it all torn down, post any part #s or markings etc. that you can find, pics, whatever would help to identify the parts; and go from there. Mic the bores to see if they're re-useable. Obviously if they're too worn to use, then the pistons will have to go too. If it turns out to be in good enough shape to re-use them, you'll just need to pick heads and stuff that will give the best results with them, without being some kind of overkill.

aaron7

iTrader: (7)

Someone who wants to buy it asked me these questions, but I don't know what the answers are! Anyone able to help?

2) Is it stock bore or bored over?
(What should the bore be?)
4) Do you know the compression ratio?
(Don't the heads determine that?)
5) Is this a 4 bolt main?
(Only found in trucks, right?)
6) Is the crank forged or cast iron?
(What came with these that year?)


Thanks again!

Air_Adam

2) Only way to know is to measure. If its a 302/327/350, it should be 4.00"

4) Depends on heads and pistons. With those 441 heads, likely mid to low 8's.

5) They came in trucks and hi-perf engines. Only way to know is to pull off the pan.

6) Check out thr casting # on the crank. Also, look at the 'seam' on the counterweights. If its thin, its cast, if its wide, its forged.

omnivec

I was enjoying this someone update it, please.