GeneL

Hi guys,

Re: my 1983 Camaro Sport Coupe 5-Liter, V8, 305, 5-Speed, which I purchased (BRAND NEW -one owner) in January 1983 from a Chevy dealer in the San Fernando Valley in Calif. where I was living at the time.

Ok, I'm in Oregon now (since 2004) and just went today and passed the DEQ (Smog emission) Test to renew my Oregon Registration for the next two years...ok fine.

Problem: the tester would not issue me my new Registration tags (Oregon is 2 years...so the new tags, if issued, would be Feb. 2008-2010).

Reason: she said the letter "C" within the VIN that is on my paperwork (Registration renewal, Title, etc) does NOT match what she reads on the VIN on the car's windshield (it's the letter "D").

A little History:
Like I said, I am the only owner of this car and upon relocating to Oregon in 2004 was required to go through the vehicle inspection process to transfer my Title and Registration from California to Oregon (what a hassle!).

Long story short:
at that time (Jan 2004) I had to pass a Smog Test (DEQ) as well as a verification of the VIN. In January of 2004 the DEQ operator said he was not able to read the VIN numbers on the car and sent me to the Motor Vehicle Department for them to verify my VIN. Well, they also were unable to read it and in turn sent me to the Portland State Police (that's another story) where the Officer (on a cold, snowy Saturday morning) had me sit in an office while he "did his thing" and finally gave me this Form 11 (verification of VIN) to return to the DMV...which I did and was finally issued my Registration Tags.

Now it seems that the DEQ operator is saying there is a discrepancy on the VIN she was able to read on the windshield and the one on my Registration Renewal form and as a result was not able to issue me the tags..."Sir, I'm just doin' my job."

Now I have to go back to the DMV and probably will be sent back to the Oregon State Police...AGAIN!...(it's about a 50 mile roundtrip through some very heavy traffic and construction delays as I head into Portland).

The VIN that is recorded on my documents is:
1G1AXXXXXCXXXXXXX

While the one on the car (under the windshield) reads:
1G1AXXXXXDXXXXXXX

The difference in the "C" and "D" (as I'm sure you are aware) is:
C = manufactured in 1982
D = manufactured in 1983
(Googled a VIN Decoder)

I'm not sure what advice, if any, you can offer but I'll be heading to the Oregon DMV next Tuesday to try and get this thing straightened out so I can get my new tags before the Feb. 20 expiration date...I have the feeling this is going to get pretty messy...AGAIN!.

Any suggestions or advice welcomed.

Gene

wildjeff

iTrader: (1)

Since your car is an 83 it should be D, unless you actually bought an 82. On my download page I have an application you can download and install that will validate your VIN or you can go to http://www.autocheck.com and entering your VIN, which will also validate it. If you try it with the C and it comes back invalid then you try it with the D and checks out okay, you can make the case that it was a typo during recording. Then it's a matter of fixing the paperwork.

If you try it with the C and comes back okay, but is invalid with the D. then you may actually have 82. Either way good luck

GeneL

Thanks for your reply wildjeff,

I had gone to...
http://www.camarosource.ca/php/camar...year=1983&tm=1
earlier today and the "D" came back as:
"VALID - Your VIN Appears to be CORRECT."

While running the VIN with the "C" came back:
"INVALID - Your VIN Appears to be INCORRECT! Recheck your VIN"

I'll try another decoder and see if I get the same result but, since I bought the car in January 1983, it was obviously manufactured in 1982...BUT it was sold to me as a 1983 (sticker et al said so)...and the VIN under the windshield verifies it's an '83 with the "D". Something obviously got screwed up along the way and wasn't noticed until trying to transfer from CA to OR...
I would have to think the VIN that's actually now being read on the car is the "official version" and would trump any subsequent Registrations, etc. and perhaps I can convince the Oregon DMV that a "typo" had occurred and "they" need to fix it.

Anyhoo, I'll go on Tuesday and present my case along with some of this VIN documentation I'm gathering and see what happens.

Thanks again,

Gene

ADD EDIT:
I did go to your download page and installed your ThirdgenVinTools v1.2.7 and got
with "C": Invalid Check Digit
with "D": it decoded ALL the digits including the D, telling me it's a 1983.

coolram62

iTrader: (2)

The VIN on the front edge of the dash would show tampering if incorrect rivets were in it.Also the VIN is located on other parts of the car to verify it.An easy one is the trim tag top center of the radiator support which will also give the build date.Do you have older paperwork showing the correct VIN?

The fact she has the 5 speed and you're the original owner points to her being a '83(4 speed was the only manual in '82 unless you had it swapped).

GeneL

No, the only thing ever done to the car was the normal replacement for wear and tear (couple of clutches, Z-bars, water pump, Alternator, etc, had the rear end replaced a couple of years back (broken gears in the rear end).
The engine and 5-speed tranny are the original and never needed any major work or replacement (other than normal Transmission service over the years)...the car is pretty much the way I bought it.

There would have been no opportunity for any tampering with the VIN since the car was always with me (garages) so the VIN on the dash is correct. The only thing about that is upon the move to Oregon, the Inspector was not able to read the VIN because of obliteration caused by "dirt accumulation" over the years making it unreadable which is why I was eventually sent to the Oregon State Police (who's job it is to verify VIN's) and they gave me that Oregon VIN Inspection Form 11:
http://www.odot.state.or.us/forms/dmv/11.pdf
Notice the area where the Officer was to fill out: "I have assigned the following VIN to the vehicle described above."

Unfortunately in my haste to get this back to the DMV in order to resolve the issue and get my new Oregon tags I failed to make a copy so, I'm hoping that the copy I gave to the DMV can be quickly located (four years later) and perhaps it will indicate the correct VIN (model year "D" 1983)...
but then, why did my new Oregon Title and Registration still reflect the incorrect VIN ("C" model year 1982)?....big mystery.

Over the weekend I'll be doing a search through my "stuff" to see what documents I can find but, after 25 years and several residential moves where "stuff is discarded" I don't have high hopes of finding what I need.
I'm a pretty reliable "packrat" and find it hard to throw things away that I think I might need...that would include the Sticker that I carefully removed from the window of the car after purchasing and putting it between the pages of the 1983 Camaro catalogue I had at that time...if I can locate that then we've gone back to the very beginning and that might shed some light on the subject.

Anyway, I can see in my future: 1) Temporary Registration Tags (new Registration due Feb 20), 2) other various and sundry forms to fill out and pay for, 3) possible letters to the California DMV, etc. etc.

One thing for sure, if I ever had a notion to sell this car I would have run into the problem at that time. Funny how after all the Smog and Vehicle inspections in California that this never was an issue until now...it's like no one ever checked the VIN's on the car itself and only relied on the documents I presented.
BTW, old Registrations and Insurance Forms that I've come across so far from my California experience are all indicating the "C" (model year 1982) so this is going to be a tough nut to crack since I don't know the genesis of this mistake but it looks like I can't blame an Oregon "typo" or misread since the error goes back way before I came here.

If you don't hear from me before next Tuesday, I'll report back with exactly what transpired at the DMV and where I need to go from here.

Thanks again for your interest.

Gene

okfoz

When we bought my first car it we got the title and all of the paperwork for the car and a few years later we found that the VIN was actually wrong on the paperwork, I compared it to the car several times to make sure. I was able to go to the Secretary of State (Michigans version of the DMV) and had the number changed. I think it took something like $20 as it was their error, but now it is correct. You might want to see if you can get it changed through your DMV it might solve some problems.

John

GeneL

As I prepare my case for my Tuesday visit to the Oregon DMV I want to give the Inspector as much helpful info as I can that might help him/her to finally verify that the VIN is a "D" (1983) and NOT a "C" (1982) as is incorrectly recorded on my Oregon Registration and Title.

Is there any document or image (something I could print out) that points to all the locations where a VIN can be found on the '83's that I could show the Inspector? I'd sure like him/her to see the VIN on more than the one location.

Or can someone just point out the locations?

So far we have:
1) on the driver side of the dash under the windshield...(remember that during my initial inspection in 2004 this was obscured and undecipherable by the DMV Inspector prompting him to send me to the Oregon State Police VIN Inspection Department)

2) tag/label on the driver's door panel (over the years this has WORN OFF AND IS ALSO UNREADABLE).

3) the trim tag top center of the radiator support (thanks coolram62)...is this easy to spot?

4) other locations that I could point out to the Inspector ???

Best case scenario:
The Inspector convinces him/herself that indeed the VIN (now that it's readable as was discovered by the DEQ Inspector during my Registration Renewal last Tuesday) is a "D" and not a "C" then we could proceed with correcting the documents.
If all goes well, I may not have to make the 50 mile roundtrip to Portland to the OSP as I did in 2004 since the DMV office I'll be going to (6 miles) has "qualified VIN Inspection".

Plus, I'm still interested to check on that Form 11 completed by the OSP which I gave to the DMV in '04 to see what VIN he documented.

Thanks all,

wildjeff

iTrader: (1)

The VIN is also stamp on the firewall under the A/C blower motor housing. A little hard to get to but may be an option.

GeneL

Duly noted wildjeff...

Brother Al

I dunno if GM did it back in '83 on Camaros, but my '86 'Bird has the the VIN stamped onto the inner lip of each fender (where the hood meets the fender, halfway between the nose & firewall). Its also stamped on the engine block right behind the Alternator. Its on a small pad that sticks out. Its actually part of the engine block's machined surface that the pass-side head bolts onto. You might have to clean it up w/ degreaser to read the stamping. Good Luck on your quest with those morons @ the DMV.

GeneL

Thanks Brother Al,
I don't know if the Inspector will be willing, or able, to go that far into the underbelly of this beast but, I'll put that one on the list.

Y'all might find this interesting (or not)...
In my searching through my old documents and receipts, I came across the
original (yellow copy) Loan Agreement with my Company's Credit Union where I financed the car:
Dated January 27, 1983
Sticker Price: $13,165

Oh and btw, the document has the VIN listed as 1G1XXXXXXDXXXXXXX
Somewhere along the line however, that D became a C and has been with me ever since.

This should at least show that at one time the VIN was correctly showing the car as an '83 but the visual inspection and verification by the Inspector on Tuesday "should" be the ultimate bottom line determination.

Thanks again all for your interest and input.

coolram62

iTrader: (2)

That's great you found a copy of your original loan paper(and she must be very well equipped).That's proof of VIN originality to a point and shows somewhere along the line CA made a mistake on your registration.It just goes to show how good "cough" they are at vehicle inspections.

The trim tag is in plain sight just ahead of the front section of the fan shroud(it's body color also).It has the complete VIN but it's out of sequence.The first letter on the first line will be the build year(D in your case like mine),then build date as 3 character(2 numbers 1 letter - month and week),car line series,build plant,sequential part of VIN.It also has other info for paint/trim color/type.

The pad on the block Brother Al is speaking of just behind the alternator.He's right in pointing out you may need to clean it off before you go.But it will only have the sequential part of the VIN(proof of matching numbers).It will also have the engine code and build date/plant.

Good luck with the DMV.

GeneL

Ok coolram62 thanks for confirming the same location on the Camaro as Brother Al's Firebird (it figures as much since they're basically out of the same mold).

As I see it, the DMV Inspector on Tuesday can have two choices:
"We can do this the easy way or we can do this the hard way."
The easy way, he simply gives the VIN number he reads on the car his blessing and initiates action right away to correct the documents OR, he sends me on the road to hell of forms, letters, fees and return trips to the DMV's endless lines before the smoke clears and all is right with the world once again...we shall see.

BTW...I said I lived in the San Fernando Valley when I bought the car...I actually was living in Van Nuys, just a few blocks down off of Van Nuys Blvd where the GM Plant (220,000 sq.ft on 10 acres) that built the Firebird and Camaro was located. I used to cruise Van Nuys and passed by there all the time on my way to Panarama City and such.
Ironic eh? the car I bought was built in the neighborhood, shipped to Detroit (I believe) and then back to California for sale.
That facility went through several expansions and in 1970 began producing the Monte Carlo and then was retooled in 1981 to produce the Firebird and Camaro. It was finally closed in 1992.

I've got some more old boxes to go through, let's see if I can find any more documents that will add confirmation that the "D" VIN was officially recorded somewhere.

Thanks all,
Gene

GeneL

.
Knowing that you've all been on the edge of your seats patiently awaiting the outcome of the drama I've presented, here ya go...

THE MISSION: convince the Oregon DMV that an unfortunate error has occurred during the past 25 years that has left my Registration and Title incorrectly stating the VIN and have them proceed to make any corrections necessary and expedite a corrected Title to me as well as issuing me new Registration tags effective next week on the 20th (new expiration Feb 2010).

MISSION LOGISTICS: locate as much documentation as possible showing that at one time the correct VIN had been recorded proving the validity of my claim that the 9th digit has been incorrectly recorded as "C" (1982) whereas in fact, it should be a "D" (1983).

RESULT: MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!!

SUMMARY: Over the weekend I found two important documents besides the original Loan Agreement with my company Credit Union from 1983:
1- a WARRANTY Repair Invoice for some work done by the dealer where I bought the car dated June of 1984 clearly indicating the VIN with the "D".
2- (and this might be where all the problems started) a copy of a work order from a different Chevy dealer dated June 1995 for a rear seal leak and a clutch check...the handwritten VIN had a "D" BUT (for some unexplained reason), was gone over to make it a "C" (he also spelled my last name incorrectly).

THE ADVENTURE BEGINS: with the above items in hand I set out this morning for the Oregon DMV...

• DMV opened at 8:00 a.m....I arrived at 8:30 a.m.
• My number was "21", number being waited on at the time was "14".
• After about 10 minutes my number was called..
• Explained the situation, offered my evidence.
• The DMV rep listened attentively and we went out to the car where he visually confirmed the VIN was with a "D".
• He filled out a "REQUEST FOR CORRECTION OF TITLE RECORDS" which he explained could take "a few weeks" at which time the new Title would be sent to my address (no need for any return visits to the DMV).
• He completed the Registration Renewal and issued me the new tags ($54.00 fee) which are now displayed on the front and rear plates.
• Total mission start to finish...including travel time: 2 Hours.

THE LESSON: take the time to visually check the VIN on your car and compare it to your documents...you can do it now, possibly finding an error OR, you can do it later at a time of discovery that might not be as convenient.

Hey, thanks to you all for your advice and support throughout this "trying ordeal", fortunately it had a relatively happy ending with just a few loose ends like, finally getting that corrected Title and notifying my Insurance Company of the correction they need to make on my Policy.

G'day!

okfoz

Its a good thing to get all that straight as the Insurance company could deny a claim, or like you experienced the DMV could balk...

Just a little note to all you car buyers out there, ALWAYS, ALWAYS, did I mention ALWAYS VERIFY the vin of the car to the title when making a purchase, it can make life a whole lot easier if you do or harder if you don't.

John

coolram62

iTrader: (2)

Okfoz makes it plain but how many fail to check your registration each.That's great to hear that you got it straight GeneL.

82CrossFire Z28

iTrader: (1)

GeneL

Glad to hear that you have resolved this issue, at least as far as the DMV is concerned.

One other way to verify your VIN is to calculate the check digit in the VIN using both C and D in the VIN. You will only get the correct check digit with the correct year code, C or D in your VIN. The check digit is the 9th digit in the VIN.

I suppose that is what you did when you went to several of the other sites. I can post the GM method for calculating the check digit if you want to see it. My source is the 1982 Camaro Factory Assembly Manual. I will have to scan the page and post it.

Dave

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Glad to hear it was resolved fairly painlessly. As mentioned the VIN is easily authenticated by the check digit. Since the check digit is derived from the other characters in the VIN number, it should have been obvious that the recorded vin was wrong. It can be nearly impossible to rear the early vin tags, GM must have noticed since the later cars have the much improved printed tag with the barcode.

okfoz

Drew, Good to see you back!

As for the check digit, and the DMV. I was thinking (always a problem) and I thought "I wonder why the DMV does not use the check digit to verify vins?" THen it dawned on me, 1) it would make too much sence, and 2) If they were to actually check the VIN then no one could come in and give them extra money to actually change it to the correct number.

I have come to the conclusion that if you ever question why the government or a large corperation ever does something strange or does not make sence... follow the money, you will almost always find your source.

John

GeneL

Thanks Dave,
Actually, using the decoder at Camarosource.ca, I ran the VIN with both the C and D...
the C came back as:
"INVALID - your VIN appears to be INCORRECT! Recheck your VIN"
while the VIN with the D came back as:
"VALID - Your VIN Appears to he CORRECT"
I showed both of these to the DMV rep during my visit as part of my defense (of course, he had his own VIN sources also).

Well John, surprisingly, I was not charged anything for the "Request for Title Change" that the DMV rep filled out...only the normal Renewal fee for the new tags.

Now, what I didn't mention before and what I noticed after I got home and reviewed the copy of the Request that he had filled out, he made an error on the form which I hope will not complicate or delay completion of the transaction.

And since the wheels have already been put into motion and the form and attached ORIGINAL TITLE sent along with the form to the "headquarters" (as he put it) are on the way, I'm hoping the outcome will be a good one.

Here's what happened:
On the form, REQUEST FOR CORRECTION OF TITLE RECORDS, the DMV rep filled in by hand the VIN number but, LEFT OUT THE THIRD DIGIT-

what should be: 1G1APXXXXXXXXXXXX
he wrote as: 1GAPXXXXXXXXXXXXX

and he referred to the "ninth" digit as the one to be corrected "from a C to a D" (instead of the "tenth" digit).

The ninth digit of course is the Check Digit while the tenth digit is the C or D indicating the year of manufacture.

Avoiding another trip to the DMV, I decided to just wait for what I'll be getting in the mail figuring that common sense will prevail when whomever at the DMV acts upon that request.

So, something else to worry about.

You get the feeling things are not going to go as smoothly as they once appeared.
Let's see what the mailman has in store for me when/if he brings me the corrected Title.

Thanks everyone,

Gene

coolram62

iTrader: (2)

The third digit of the VIN indicates manufacture division(1 - Chevrolet).I hope that snafu doesn't cause a delay in your paperwork.This is probably what happened to you in CA.As Okfoz stated above always double check paperwork.

And John I agree on your statement on a goverment or large corp and common sense.I've worked for the federal goverment for 20 years and know it first hand.My though has always been there's a little box when you go to work that you have to leave your common sense in.

Guest

I had this happen on another car, actually it was wrong when I bought it (I knew it was wrong too) so when I finally took the car to the DMV to register it I had them verify and correct the VIN. I almost left it alone since it was a VIN for a convertible and AFAIK there was no check digit involved but... I decided to do the right thing and keep my coupe.

Randy82WS7

ppl are morons and have a hard time copying digits by hand

happens all the time

i have had many vehicles over the years with an incorrect digit or two


never causes any problem though

here in IL we have no inspections or testing or anything else

you just buy the car, transfer the title for 65 bucks, buy registration(license plates for 78 bucks and pay 20 dollar IL road tax as long as you didnt pay over a certain amoiunt for it or as long as its not newer than about 7 years old

if there is an error in a digit or two of the cvin code on the title or registration then they just leave it at that also sometimes the insurance company makes an error in the vin code on their cards as well

it is just something that happens

im glad i dont live out there where bad things like you have had happen can happen just because of an incorrect digit wow

id be so pissed off

id probably go find that dealership guy that screwed up the vin code and name and tell him to freaking learn how to read and write and tell him the trouble he caused by his inability to coordinate his mind with his hands

but... thats just me i guess


good luck haha

GeneL

Yep Randy, it would have been real easy to get my dander up but, what would that have solved?

On my way to the DMV last Tuesday I had to tell myself repeatedly to "just be calm, don't get pissed off..the damage is done, let's just get it fixed."

But yeah, the guy's inability to get all the digits correct did of course bother me later on after I reviewed the copies I asked him to make for me and my first thought was to go right back there and show him the error of his way but, that would have cost another couple/fews hours at the DMV and I just wasn't up for that...that's why I'm just waiting on the Title and hope the error was caught in time to get it right...the fact that the original Title went along with the Title Change Request and...if they in fact decode that VIN, it will clearly show which is the correct VIN and the issue should resolve itself.

Things in Illinois are apparently a lot simpler when it comes to selling a vehicle but here in Oregon (and California) I would have been prevented from selling this car until this VIN situation had been addressed.

Thanks for your comments.

GeneL

In today's mail was my new:
Oregon Vehicle Certificate of Title...

• All the information, including the revised VIN number indicating the "D" is, I'm relieved to say, correct.
  
  Attached also was a corrected Registration Card.
  
  I had contacted my Insurance Company last week and my documentation was updated immediately to reflect the corrected VIN.

Took just over two weeks from the date of my visit to the DMV on the 12th to receive the corrected Title.

Hey guys, I appreciate the opportunity of being able to come to this Forum and get your sound advice and support...keep up the good work...it helped a lot just to be able to vent.

Y'all have a good day now, ya hear!

coolram62

iTrader: (2)

That's great news Gene everything worked out for you.And it's a good lesson for all of us,as Okfoz pointed out,to check all documentation before accepting it.