Opher

iTrader: (1)

Like the title says, I've come across an 89 Formula 305 TPI, 5spd car, hardtop, loaded, gray interior. Its a WS6 car. Worth it or no?? I cant seem to find a production number on 5spd formulas. I know 5spd 3rd gens are rare, but Im wondering if its something I should pick up or not. Its clean, needs a bit of paint work, but is absolutely bone stock.

Chris

Bull

iTrader: (5)

Worth it how? A price would also help.

Although d speed cars are uncommon, I would not go so far as to say they are rare.

If the price is decent and you like the cars, go ahead and buy it. Obviously, no thirdgen (except TTA, Firehawk, and time-capsule cars) has any ability to command collector prices at the moment, so buying any example is only worth it based on cost and your love of the vehicle.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Not hardly. It's a mass-produced CAR.

However, for that year, that would be one of the better cars to get... if it has rear discs especially. It'll be a 3.45 gear 9-bolt, and the discs would be PBRs. The Formula, being the lightest of the "performance" type Firebirds, is probably the fastest one.

As far as "worth it" and "pick it up or not", that would depend on the price and how bad you want it, ALOT more than any "rare".

Rich2279

iTrader: (7)

If you go to Firebird Tech Data and then click on '89 Firebird it gives an overall production number, but doesn't break down how many had the 700R4 or T5. For Formulas, in '89 the total is 16,670. A long web search may get you more specific numbers.

Rayvan

Find out if it has the quick ratio steering box and the larger (1 3/8") front sway bar and the dual cat exhaust. If it does, you found my car! (I've had mine since it was new). The hard-top kept the chassis tight and rattle free and it's fun as heck to drive it.

I'll never sell it. If the motor ever fails, it gets an LS2 and a T-56.

avro206

FYI---ALL 3rd gen Formulas have WS6 as standard equipment.

Out of all the engine/transmssion combos---I think it might be the rarest.

I look through 3rd gen classifieds all the time don't see too many 5 speed TPI cars.
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all WS6 cars had them (GTAs and Formulas) Optional on Trans Ams

Rayvan

When I ordered my car back in Dec. '88, there were 3 levels of WS6 handling packages available. I remember checking the "WS6 Level III" box, which included the quick ratio steering box, and a couple of other upgrades. I thought the larger front sway-bar was one of them. It may have been a larger *rear* bar, it's been 19 years, so you could be right.

avro206

I don't know what to say--except maybe your memories fuzzy from 19 years ago!

Check out any brochure from back in 88--they suspensions were called in that book--level one, level two and level three (WS6)

I have several brochures that confirm WS6 as the only suspension on the Formulas.

Some one back me up here


Nice car you have BTW---Formula TPI 5 speed hardtops are one of my fav...post a nice pic!!

Zepher

iTrader: (1)

How much are they asking?

Rayvan

Thanks. I still love the car like when it was new. It's now literally the oldest car I've ever owed, including a '72 GTO I sold in '89 to buy the car, LOL!

There indeed were differing levels of handling packages WRT the Formulas. Quick ratio (12:1) steering boxes, rear disk brakes, better shocks/stiffer springs, limited slip 3:45 ratio axle for example that not *all* the Formulas were equipped with.

The top of the line handling packages for the Pontiac F-Bodies were all designated "WS6 Level III."

All of the GTAs got the "WS6 Level III" automatically. *I* had to pay extra for it.

Not sayin' you're wrong, and as you've said; *Every* Formula had the "WS6" designation (and I stand corrected on the sway-bar sizes), but I'm just saying, that there were indeed differences...

Zepher

iTrader: (1)

I am looking at the 88 Dealers book and the options are:

Rally Tuned Suspension includes larger front and rear stabilizer bars.
There is no WS6 option level, or mention of WS6 at all.

There is a section that has Level I, II, III, but those are the option groups.
Mine has the 1SC Level III group.

Another odd thing is the HP rating,
LB9 is 205 regardles of the Trans and the L98 is 210.
MPG of the L98 is 25/16 while the LB9 is 24/16
LB9 with M5 is 26/16

avro206

many times brochures can we so wrong. 86's say 201hp LB9--but that was BS. All LB9s were down graded to 190.

My 89 product book says a yellow for that year but there was not----cancelled I guess

okfoz

Well alrightie then...

From 1987 - 1992

1) ALL FORMULAS got the level III WS6 suspension,
2) WS6 from 1987 - 1992 basically included: Quick ratio steering box, special gas filled shocks & struts, 36mm front and 24mm rear sway bar, special springs, and 16" Wheels.
3) the FORMULA with LB9 & M5 ALL should have gotten the 3.42 or 3.45 rear axel ratios, the L98 ALL would have gotten the 3.23 or 3.27 Gear ratios.
4) Starting in early 1989 FORMULAS with the LB9/M5 or L98 SHOULD have gotten the N10 Dual cats. Later in the year the GTA's and the Trans Ams with the WS6 option would have gotten the Dual cats.

The FORMULA was the equivalent to the idea of the GTO back in the 60's. The idea was to get the light weight with the big engine. Albeit MOST of the formulas got the LO3 engine so they were relying on the cornering aspects of the performance more-so than acceleration. BUT you take a car that handles well AND you add the LB5/M5 or the L98 and you really have a fun car to drive.

From what I have seen the Formula LB9/M5 is probably the rarest of the Formuals from year to year. The performance was good enough that with a good driver should keep up with an equal L98 car.

The 1988 & 1989 LB9/M5 & L98 actually has the most agressive cam available for all years.

Fuel milage is the best for 1989 & 1992.

John

gpdscott

iTrader: (1)

Hi John.
How rare would my car be, it is all original.. It a 1987 Yellow Formula, LB9 Motor( 305 TPI), M5 Trans(5-Speed) and has GU4(3.08) Rear Axle...
Glen

redfirebirdman8

it would be a little more rare since its yellow. only a few came in that color.

okfoz

Glen I know you have contacted me before, It took me a few days to remember it tho.

Actually I really do not know how many yellow cars were made in 1987. What I DO know is that in 1987 & 1988 ALL yellow cars were Formuals for the Firebird line. In 1986 it was a T/A only color.

John

gpdscott

iTrader: (1)

From my paper work that I got from PHS for my 87 LG4 Formula. It included a copy off the firebird production for each year.It shows in 1989 there were 64,404 built, 16,670 W66, 6478 with LB9, and 9107 with MM5.
Glen.

92RS(real slow)

omg i want that

gpdscott

iTrader: (1)

The Paper work ? or the Car? lol...

okfoz

Glen,
I just noticed that you have the GU4 (3.08) Saginaw rear axel (10 Bolt)... Did you get that RPO from your SPID sheet or did you guess at it. This would be the only Fomula that I know of without the Performance gear and the LB9/M5 combo. Also was it originally a Canadian Car or a US car?

Usually the 87 - 89 Formula/LB9/M5 came with the GM3 (3.45) Borg & Warner Axel (9 Bolt). Have you ever counted the bolts on the rear axel?

John

gpdscott

iTrader: (1)

Hi John.
I got that RPO code from the sticker inside the center console and did a spread sheet on all the codes and that's what in it for the rear axle, the guy who did the appraisal couldn't believe it , and he looked under it and it does have a 10 bolt, all original.. The car was built at Van Nuy's plant, shipped to Butte Montana,US, and the guy I bought it from, had the dealer in Rock Springs WY. get it in for him.So yes it was a US car, until Sept.07. This car doesn't have many options, NO power window's, locks,or NO rear window defogger. From looking at my PHS paper work for my other Formula, the GU4 wasn't available on the Formula, Only as a option on the Trans Am.
Glen.

okfoz

That is usually true. THe 3.08 might have been used on the LG4 M5 cars but yours is the first with the LB9/M5, Ever, ANY year that I have seen.

John

avro206

You should phone is the orginal owner Glen--see if he special ordered that rear end

gpdscott

iTrader: (1)

No, the original owner didn't order it, he lived in Green River WY, and wanted a Trans Am , but Ins. was high, so his next choice was a Formula, the dealer found this one on a lot in Butte, MT, so the dealer got it in for him. The owner moved to Casper WY in 2004, and I bought it for him in Sept.'07. He gave me a folder with every paper from day one with this car, Bill of Sale, first owner gas fill up, oil change,etc, you name it , it is there..

I see you are in Calgary., I live in Brooks.May see you at the May.25 Firebird Club Car Show...

Glen.

jakesTA87

iTrader: (1)

i have an 89 formula with the 305 tbi, 5speed, and GU4 3.08 read end...is this a posi rear end? if so i would like to put the gears in my trans am that has 2.73s...i am parting out the formula by the way...you can see my listing in the Parts for sale forum

gpdscott

iTrader: (1)

You have to look for the code G80 on your car for Positraction. GU4 is just for the 3.08 gear ratio..

okfoz

I doubt that it is a Posi Rear end. .. Very few if any non TPI cars after 1986 had Posi (ltd slip). Prior to 1986 it was more common to have an LG4 with Posi, my 83 was so equipped, Both of them for that matter.

Honestly going from a 2.73 to a 3.08 rear axel will not improve things that much, it will a little but nothing significant. You will be better off trying to find something with a 3.23 or higher, ALSO you will have to contend with the speedometer being off as your MT gears will not work in an AT AFAIK. Another option is to take your 3.08 gears out and install taller gears, I would recommend Precision Gears over Richmond as Richmond tend to whine.

RacerX13

I just got an '88 LB9/MM5/GM3 hartop. If you think they aren't rare try finding one-esp. one that's still a nice car. I started looking a year ago.

And it was worth the wait!

Lampropeltis

So maybe you can help me with this issue. A 91 Formula TPI 5spd I am looking @ I was told is equipped with rear drum brakes and a 3.42 rear end. What is up with that and how does the cam in 90 and 91 models compare with the ones from 88 and 90?

Drew

iTrader: (58)

The cam is essentially the same. The reason you'll find 91-92 cars with drums when they should have discs is a supplier shortage issue. I want to say that those cars that got drums instead of the discs that should have been standard, had a note on the window sticker showing a discount for the downgraded brakes. It doesn't make a huge difference since the back brakes don't do most of the actual braking, and both 4whl disc and disc/drum cars both shared the lousy front discs. And it's not unusual to find rear drums where there should be discs. Check the RPO codes if you want to verify what should have been there.

okfoz

Actually the brakes were Aluminum Drums which cool faster and do not fade like the cast iron drums. There is actually one advantage to drum brakes of an equal size to a disc brake. They hold better.... The down side is that they only hold better once. The Aluminum disapates heat better and has a different expansion rate than cast iron, which reduces fade.

As Drew stated, there was a shortage in 1991 of something for the disc brakes, only 1LE and B4C cars got the disc brakes for a time IIRC...

John

Lampropeltis

Pretty interesting note about the rear drum setup. I am not so concerned about performance - not like your going to be braking on the limit around the street - as I am about maintenance; I hate changing out shoes in drums as opposed to pads on discs.

As far as the cam, why did OKFOZ state "The 1988 & 1989 LB9/M5 & L98 actually has the most agressive cam available for all years."? That basically tells me that the cam from the 91-92 ISN'T essentially the same. Especially when you throw in the statement "..for all years"

okfoz

The cam specs are as follows for the LB9/M5 & L98
1987 Lift - I: 404" E:.415" Dur: I-202° E-207° PN 14093643#
1988 & 1989 Lift - I: 415" E:.430" Dur: I-207° E-213° PN 10066049
1990+ Lift - I: 413" E:.428" Dur: I-202° E-207° PN 10111773*

#note: also includes some exported LB9/A4 cars...
*note: also includes LB9/A4 cars as all LB9's and All L98's from 1990 - 1992 used the same cam...

John

Lampropeltis

So did Pontiac decide to change that for fuel econ reasons?? Or did it have something to do with the change to speed density?

Drew

iTrader: (58)

I don't consider the difference large enough to really worry about. It's not enough difference that you're going to hear, or feel the difference. Generally speaking you've got Peanut cams, and the good cams. You will feel the difference between a peanut cam and the L98 cam. There are minor differences from year to year, but at the end of the day you've got the good cam, and the bad cam. Regardless by 91 & 92 all the LB9/L98's had the good cam.

okfoz

Drew is correct, the "Peanut" cam that came in the 1986-1989 LB9/A4 cars (non export) were not nearly as performance in comparison... Drew, you can add 1990 to using the same cam as all the other LB9's and L98's.. That is according to the Parts & Illustration catalogs of both the Camaro and Firebird.

The "Peaut" cam used in the 87-89 had the following specs
1987-1989 Lift - I: .350" E:.384" Dur: I-179° E-194° PN 10088155# IIRC the specs were very similar to the 1986 LB9 cam...

This was actually the same cam that they used on the LG4 & LO3 Cars, From 1988+ the LB9/A4 engine did get the better heads however....

----------------------------------
Lampropeltis,
As for your question about fuel economy, yes, it was for fuel economy, and the SD played a part. I suspect that there may not have been a big performance difference between an LB9 & L98 with the A4 if they both used the same cam and same exhaust. So in order to increase sales of the L98 GM (both Chevrolet and Pontiac) used the peanut cam in the LB9/A4 in order to help persuade people to upgrade to the better engine. In 1990+ most of the LB9/M5 cars and most of the L98 cars got the N10 Dual cats to increase the offset of the performance gap.

I suspect with the loss of the MAF which was rather restrictive the new SD cars improved performance by that improvement alone. It was a new design, so the learning curve started over, somewhat, It also helped with emissions I suspect...

John