raymanism

First post!

I found a hard-top '91 Camaro Z/28 with a 5-speed manual transmission (guessing it has a 305). The exterior is white and the interior is black. The owner claims it has 49,710 miles on the clock, new tires and exhaust system.

Asking price is $ 8500.

I still haven't seen the car, but he claims it's in an excellent condition.

What do you guys think of the price?

EDIT: I should note that this car isn't in the US. I live in Saudi Arabia, and 3rd gen F-bodies are hard to come by, or at least hard to find in a good condition.

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

Sounds like a great car, however, i htink 8500 may be a little high unless it truely is spotless with no damage/rust/ect. Definatly worth looking into. Consider what it will cost to ship the car as well.

Maybe see if you can get a picture of the RPO list, its in the console or in the locking complrtment in the truck area. Maybe its a 1le car, doubt it, but you never know.

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

In Saudi Arabia I think that is a great deal on a Thirdgen.

raymanism

Ok guys.. Just got off the phone with the owner. He bought it from the US from the original owner, and has owned it himself for 2 years now. This is his second third-gen maro (owned an '86 Iroc before it for around 16 years).

He confirmed the mileage to be 51K mi. The car has the original paint on it. He has ordered new absorbers for the hood and trunk, a new gear **** and sport springs.

I checked eBay for third gen Camaros with a stick-shift, and found only 18 with a V8 (which includes RSs). Coincidentally, one of the cars was also a white '91 Z28 and the asking price is $ 7,995. Click here for details.

So $8,500 and $7,995 is pretty close (mind you the car I'm looking at has 51k miles on the clock, the one on eBay has 126K miles!).

The bad news is, a new law was just implemented about two months ago which prohibits the importation of cars manufactured prior to 2005 for road use. I had heard about this law before, but I just now realized that they are actually implementing it. Any new import older than a 2005 model cannot be registered for road use; they can only be registered as classics.

As dramatic as this might sound, this is one of the only chances I have to buy a car like this in such a good condition (still didn't see it face to car though )

Attached are two images of the actual car. First image was taken in the US. Second image is in Saudi Arabia.

I've always wanted a third gen camaro with a stick-shift. Would've preferred having T-tops or a convertible though...

raymanism

Man...

How can I convince the wife??!!

Zwrench

Maybe I missed something but, didn't you say that this car is already in Saudi Arabia and has been for two years? If that's the case, it was imported before the law went into effect and should be exempt. That's how I read it anyway.

I know very little about Saudi Arabia so I know even less about the laws there. Maybe it's a retroactive law? Or it applies to re-sale of imports?

raymanism

Sorry if I confused you.

What I meant was importing is no longer an option. This is why this car, which is already in Saudi Arabia, is one of the rare opportunities (if not only) that I have for me to buy a late model third-gen camaro in such a good condition...

So yeah, this car is still street legal in Saudi Arabia, and I can still buy it and have all the proper registration documents.

I got a picture of the interior from the owner (see attachment). Apparently the car now has 60K Mi on the clock, not 51K as he previously told me. Still low mileage for the car's age.

Now for the real bad news. My wife doesn't like my taste in cars... We also don't exactly have funds to get this car... We could find a way to cough-up enough money... but my wife still doesn't like the idea of buying an 18 year old car. She doesn't like the style, and feels that it will break down at the first traffic light.

We had a long discussion, and nothing... I'm sure someone faced something similar when buying one of his(/her?) dream cars, right? What can I do?!

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

It's easier to ask for forgiveness then permission.... I am lucky, my SO lets me buy as many as I want.

84redta

iTrader: (34)

Not to mention, it has the factory cd player which is nearly impossible to find over here. I say go for it, like you said, with the new importing laws, this is nearly your last chance to get ahold of one.

Zwrench

Thanks for the clarification.

As far as the little lady is concerned, I have no advice (because my wife might be reading this). I'm lucky, too. She encourages my interest in these cars and helps when she can.

I sure hope you can find a way to get it. Good luck!

webeeZ28

iTrader: (2)

Who pays the bills? Let her drive the VW and you get to drive your dream car.

raymanism

Just by looking at your signature I'd say yes... You ARE lucky! I'm envious!!!
I was going to mention the factory CD player. It's nice that it has a more modern stereo, but I'm sure I'd want to change it sometime down the road anyway.

The car was originally in California by the way.
Sigh... There are two roadblocks ahead of me; 1) the money, 2) the car itself. My wife argues that we could use the money for other stuff we need, which is true.... But if she liked the car herself, I think she wouldn't mind us getting it even if we had to tighten our belts a bit for next few months. So the real issue is that my wife doesn't like the car. In her own words, she thinks this car is a "downgrade". She categorizes certain cars as "boy cars", and she uses that term very liberally. For example, she thinks all corvettes are for teenagers. She's OK with coupes, but the ones she likes are the luxury kind, not the sporty or "noisy" kind. I hate all sedans and SUVs (the T-Reg is ok, but obviously not my first choice), and I always prefer coupes. Dream coupes of mine include the 2nd and 3rd gen F-bodies, and the BMW 850, all of which are out of production... My wife hates how I'm so attached to all of these cars from yesteryear...

Since we're tight on money, we're debating whether or not it's a good idea to get a second car now. She not against the idea of a second car, but she thinks that I'm being selfish when thinking of getting a sports car (which she doesn't like) as our second car, and not thinking of her and the kids (aged 3 and 6). My idea is, we already have a large car that can fit us all + one more person, why get another large and boring car???

Yeah I could put my foot down and do what I want... but trust me, it's not good for the relationship...

I might test drive the car in a few days and see. I haven't been in a 3rd gen F-body in 17 years. Maybe I don't like it anymore... Maybe I still do... This might help me decide if it's worth fighting over.

Imthebriman

iTrader: (1)

I say go take it for a test drive. If you still like it, then go for it! Your wife may be mad for a little bit, but she would probably forgive you. I wish I had a corvette when I was a teenager.

webeeZ28

iTrader: (2)

......good luck with your decision either way.

raymanism

Thanks guys...

I contacted the owner, and I'll be meeting him this Saturday to test-drive the car. Any pointers you guys think I should consider? I'm really hoping the car is very clean, because if it needs too much work to be done, it'll be even tougher to try to convince my wife about it for the second time!

She realized that I wasn't happy with her disapproval last time we spoke. I didn't tell her I'm testing the car... If I like it and I try again to convince her that we should get it, I'm hoping she'll sense how bad I want it from my persistence...

Damn it, it's the beginning of the month, and our funds are already running low! I just hope there isn't much interest in this car!

raymanism

Guys, I drove the car today!

First the pictures...

Here's what the exterior looks like.

raymanism

More exterior pictures.

raymanism

Now the interior pics. Part 1/3

raymanism

Part 2/3

JaxJags

Looks great! Did you like test driving it?

raymanism

Part 3/3...

That's it for the pictures... I forgot to take pictures of the engine.

Well, the car runs great, and idles very smoothly. The exterior looks clean. The owner claims it has the original paint, but the front bumper and front lip were re-painted. You may notice that the fog lights are missing. The owner says he removes them during the Summer to allow for more air to find its way to the engine. This keeps the temperature at around 160 (as you see in the picture), and during the peak of the Summer, the temperature is just below the 220 mark (which is acceptable since temperatures reach 120+ degrees here!

All tires are new, the size is 245 X 50 X 15. There's a custom exhaust system which sounds amazing (cat. converter was removed). I really like how it looks. There are a few dings on the body, but nothing too major. The lights are all working (front and back). The shocks for the hood and the trunk are busted, and the rolling cover in the trunk does roll back. The owner has ordered new shocks for the hood and trunk, and a new gear **** (the leather wore out).

Inside the car, the stock seat covers have some tears on the outer side of both seats (can be seen in the pictures) The driver's seat is power-adjusted and runs fine, but the passenger seat is manually adjusted. The optional CD player isn't running, and sometimes the volume control doesn't work.

The Air Conditioner runs very well (a huge deal here), and doesn't affect the car's stability even when running on the maximum. All windows, locks and mirrors are power controlled and fully functional. The door lock labels didn't even wear-off (only the labels on the window buttons are worn). The only crack I found on the dash was on the front left speaker grill (only one of the lines was broken).

When I drove the car, it revved very well (although i felt the 305 reached the red-line too quickly... would be nice to do an engine swap later). This was the first time for me to drive a third-gen with a stick-shift, so the clutch took a little bit of getting used to. I realized that if I stepped on the clutch too quickly, the car would be jerky, when I depressed it slowly, the shift were as smooth as silk. The clutch was pretty tough though (which I heard is normal, right?) The brakes weren't as responsive as I would've liked. I asked the guy if the pads needed changing, he said the pads were fine as long as you don't hear metal screeches! He also said that the car had disc brakes at front, and drum brakes at the back (I wasn't aware of this). This is probably another area where I could improve the car.

Since I drive an SUV everyday, I had to be more careful with bumps in the 'maro, but ride height was much better than I expected. Generally, the car is very well maintained. As I said previously, the current owner has had it for 2 years now, and he had bought it from the original owners (a couple in Santa Ana, CA). They sold the car to buy the new Camaro.

The guy is passionate about the car, as he has owned an '86 Iroc for around 17 years in the past. He drove that car for over 250K miles! Point is, he's knowledgeable when it comes to third-gen F bodies. I checked the car's VIN, and the significant numbers are:
1G1FP23F3MLXXXXXX
1) 1: Country=USA
2) G: Manufacturer=GM
3) F: Car line code=F-Body
4) P: Car line series=Camaro
5) 2: Body type=2 door coupe (hatchback)
6) 3: Restraint system=Manual belts (driver inflatable)
7) F: Engine code=305 ci V8 LB9
8) 3: Check digit
9) M: Model year=1991
10) L: Assembly plant=Van Nuys

So the VIN fits the cars specs fine. I might do a history check on the car (do you guys think it's worth it?)

I like the car... I didn't fall in love with it. I'm happy it's in such a good condition. Is it worth the asking price though? $8,500...

I might need a push... What are your thoughts on the car? Anything you think I should've asked or didn't cover here?

Guest

You said you did not fall in love with it, so this might not be the car for you. To spend that much money on something you don't have your heart into would be a waste in itself. Unfortunately I think you need to let it go if you are so on the fence and the money would put you in a hole financially.

BigWhiteGTP

I'm sorry it's a realy nice car, but will a car pay your bills or get you through a financial crisis? Listen to your wife.

Imthebriman

iTrader: (1)

If you didn't fall in love with it then I wouldn't spend your money on it. But I am on the fence also. This might be your last chance to get a pristene third gen....this is a toughy....

67tothefuture

I also agree. If not in love with it keep looking. Probably not a good idea if the wife is not on the same page. I think the price is high. I know it is different not being in the states, but I bought a 91 z28 all original convertible w/37,000 original miles this spring for $5000. If you really want it shoot the guy a offer, but I would not give him near what he is asking for... Also, not sure how well these cars hold up in the desert???

raymanism

I guess when I wrote "I didn't fall in love with it", I was imagining my self discussing this with my wife again, preparing my self for the talk so to speak. I think a clarification would be a good idea. Probably the most thing I dislike about the car is the white exterior color. I might've once sworn that I'd never be caught in a white car, not even dead. Sure I can appreciate 1 in a million cars which look good in white, but it's still at the bottom of my list of colors I like on a car. That being said, the '91 Z28 looks much better in white than say an '86 Iroc, probably because the '91 doesn't come with the stripes. So the color is fine. Second gripe would be the F40-style rear spoiler. I think it's too flashy, most likely does no good performance-wise and probably just adds unnecessary weight. Third problem is not having T-tops, but with our humid weather, this might be a good thing since I heard the support bar can rust real quick. Final gripe, I prefer the old-style tachometer and speedometer (where the needles would be in the 6 O'clock mark) seen in older Irocs (my uncle had an '86 Iroc back in the day, hence the obsession). Those dials simply looked sportier. The overall dash of the '91 looks more modern though.

Yet the car is very clean, which is both good and bad. It's good, 'cause if I buy it it will last with me (hopefully) and I wouldn't need to invest more into it from the get-go. I can save money for it, and work on it on my terms.

But! It also doesn't feel right to modify such a clean car! I've been reading just a few posts here and there at thirdgen.org and a lot of people don't like it when a '91 has the wrong year's ground effects/emblems/spoiler etc.. This made me feel like I was insane to want to mod my future car! Am I? Would it really be bad to want to change the rear spoiler, possibly do a T-top conversion in the future, change the body color etc...? Doing these things would likely make me love the car more!

This is the reason why I'm taking a long time making up my mind!

I know the price is high, but checking eBay I found other third-gen Camaros selling for so much more! What gives? What's a good price for this car?!

BigWhiteGTP

Better than winter frozen salty icy streets of the northern states. No rust issues here in the desert.

raymanism

forgot to comment on this. the main concern here is the extreeme heat. like I said, temperatures can reach over 120 degrees here. but the weather here isn't dry, since I live in a coastal city, so humidity is an issue in the summer.

i just wanted to add one more comment about the car. i'm absolutely happy that it's a 5 speed manual! i wouldn't be this serious about it if it was an automatic. so this is a HUGE plus.

i probably listed all the things I don't like about the car before the the pros.

ROCFATHER

Hey man you should really think about it!!! To pay that much for a car that the only thing you really like is a 5 speed manual? I would just wait. I think you have a bad case of 3rd genocitus ( a disease which causes you to want any thirdgen that comes your way!lol) Been there had that!

When i was searching for my IROC i always said I wanted to get a vert or 5.7 t-top car! Found alot of junks out there until i stumbled upon my buddy selling his car. Keep in mind it was a hard top of all things. I swore i would never get a hard top again! BUT it was a beautiful jet black and had a 5.7 TPI so those were really key selling points for me. And it was half of what your goin to pay. Adding t-tops later would cost you, and if you plan on painting it too, expect to pay even more money. These cars are nice, but modding and just putting money into them is a part of the 3rd gen life. Bottom line here... Not worth 8500... i say more like 6000-7000$. Good luck dude keep us informed.

raymanism

Actually, I rather have/had a case of F-bodiocitus! I remember wanting to get a used 25th anniversary 4th gen Trans-Am, just because it was a Trans-Am (although it was white!). I don't like the 4th gen F-bodies very much, and I like them even less now. I ended up not getting it

I'm not "only" liking the 5 speed manual, but it's at the top of my "must-have" list. This is a thing in me, I try to find flaws in things I consider getting before looking at the merits. I think I made everyone feel that I don't want this car at all. I do want a third gen Camaro. For me to get a coupe at this point in my life, it has to be in a certain condition and have a few things in it... Right now, I want a second car (almost need). Since it's going to be our family's second car (and my daily driver), it has to be reliable. Check... It's so clean that even the stock spare tire and jack are in place and dust free! If I'm getting a coupe, it has to be a stick shift (what's the point otherwise?). Check... I love how the '91 model looks so modern overall compared to older 3rd gens. The hood blisters are nice (would like them more if they were functional), the ground effects are beautiful.

So it hits lots of selling points... Not to mention that it's extremely hard to come by a 3rd gen around here. I mean I haven't seen a third gen here in years! Let alone a third gen in such a good condition! 4th gens are more widely available (Camaros only, dealers here stopped selling Pontiacs in the early '90s).

This is a VERY clean car. White looks OK on it, not completely unacceptable. Would've liked it to have T-tops, but I can make a compromise. After all even if another car was in similar/better condition, with the exact specs I want, importing is no longer an option (very unlikely to be available locally)!

I really like the car, and I'm very happy that it's a 5-speed. The fact that it's a hardtop, white in color and that all (or at least the vast majority) of V8 3rd gens with a 5-speed came with the 305 I can live with. These are areas where I can willingly spend more money on the car to improve/upgrade, when I have the money.

I might be lucky here. First, I really cannot afford the car for $8500. Second, 3rd gens generally aren't all that popular either (with the exception of people like us!). These might be reasons for him to accept a lower offer, if he's desperate. He told me a friend of his sold his 4th gen Camaro for only $4500.

For a person who wants a third gen, and is in my situation (where 3rd gens are scarce, and impossible to import) I'd say the car is worth the $8500.

But the reality is that I don't have that kind of money... I want to make an offer. You guys think 6-7K is reasonable? Or still a little over priced?

67tothefuture

I would offer $6000. Be honest, tell him you want it but cannot afford it. I have a 91 Z28 convertible w/39,000 miles on it, in nice condition and would be thrilled to get $8500 for mine at this point if I was to sell it.

raymanism

Guys... I don't know what's happening, but I'm digging the look of the '91 Z28 more every day. I now think that the rear spoiler looks very nice on it!

Either I'm thinking about this too much, or I'm really falling for this car. I dreamed about the car last night! (I was mentioning to someone that the custom dual-exhaust can get hot)

I am no considering offering $6000-6500 max.

But something's fishy... The picture the owner sent me of the interior before seeing the car had higher mileage than when I saw the car! When I saw the car, I did ask him about this, but he sorta ignored the question. I didn't ask again, because I wasn't so sure...

Look at the attachment though, the image on the left is the OLD picture, and the image on the right is the NEW one. If the embedded-information is correct, the old photo was taken back in March 28 2008. I tested the car October 10 '09. The mileage in the old photo says "59,648.4". The mileage in the new photo says "55,305.4". What gives? How concerned should I be?

Note: Just shot the owner with the question below. Will report back when he replies.
Here's his reply:
Well... is it a concern? It isn't that much. His answer shows that he is willing to verify the actual mileage from the ECU (is that possible?).

What do you guys think?

Guest

Your inability to make a decision and hairpin waffling are mindblowing!

raymanism

I take my time when it comes to spending large amounts of cash...

jshort0034

I have a car identical to the one youre looking at except mines a convertible with red leather interior. And I don't have a wife but I have a mother who is very **** about old cars. My Dad and I bought my 3rd gen behind her back and hid it behind the barn... I don't know how many barns are in your country but its worth a shot haha she didn't have time to change our mind!

raymanism

Here's a re-cap of my thoughts on the car. Please look at my questions.

About the car

• 1991 Camaro Z28
• hard-top
• 305 ci V8 with 5-speed manual
• White exterior
• Grey cloth interior with black inserts (original)
• Original optional CD player (not running, FM works)

1G1FP23F3MLXXXXXX
1: Country=USA
G: Manufacturer=GM
F: Car line code=F-Body
P: Car line series=Camaro
2: Body type=2 door coupe (hatchback)
3: Restraint system=Manual belts (driver inflatable)
F: Engine code=305 ci V8 LB9
3: Check digit
M: Model year=1991
L: Assembly plant=Van Nuys

New items

1. New tires (245 X 50 X 16)
2. New custom Edelbrock exhaust system with dual center tail-pipes
3. Ordered new hood struts
4. Ordered new trunk struts
5. Ordered new gear ****
6. Ordered new Eibach springs
7. Ordered new K&N air filters

History

• First bought by a couple from Santa Ana, CA in 1991
• Current owner bought it from the original owners two years ago (They sold the car to buy the new Camaro)
• Car currently in Saudi Arabia
• Mileage 55-60K Mi (see question 3)
• Current owner is passionate about the car. He has owned an '86 Iroc for around 17 years in the past. He drove that car for over 250K miles! Point is, he's knowledgeable when it comes to third-gen F bodies and has taken good car of his second 3rd gen Camaro
• Asking price is $ 8500.

Reasons to buy

• I really like how it looks. Had my reservations at first, not anymore! I'm digging the look of the '91 Z28 more and more every day
• 5-speed manual is at the top of my "must-have" list
• New law, implemented just two months ago, prohibits importing cars manufactured prior to 2005 for road use (importing a 3rd gen is no longer an option)
• Extremely hard to come by a 3rd gen around here (One of the only chances I have to buy a car like this in such a good condition)
• Haven't seen a third gen here in years (Let alone a third gen in such a good condition)

The wife

• Doesn't like my taste in cars
• Doesn't like the idea of buying an 18 year old car
• Feels that all used cars will break down at the first traffic light (she thinks no one sells a car unless it has a problem)

Test drive observations

• Runs great
• Idles very smoothly
• Exterior looks clean (few dings on the body, nothing too major)
• Original paint (front bumper and front lip were re-painted)
• Fog lights removed for better air cooling (keeps the temperature at around 160, and just below 220 during the peak of the Summer, which is acceptable since temperatures reach 120+ degrees here!)
• Custom exhaust system sounds amazing
• Cat. converter was removed (not required here)
• All lights are working (front, back and inside)
• Hood and the trunk struts are busted (new ones ordered)
• Rolling cover in the trunk doesn't roll back (new one ordered)
• Has original two-tone seat covers (some tears on the outer side of both front seats)
• Driver's seat is power-adjusted and runs fine
• Passenger seat is manually adjusted
• CD player isn't running, and sometimes the volume control doesn't work (FM runs fine)
• Air Conditioner runs very well (a huge deal here)
• Windows, locks and mirrors are power controlled and fully functional
• Door lock labels intact
• Labels on the window buttons are worn (maybe trunk release as well)
• Only crack in dash is on the front left speaker grill (only one of the lines is broken)
• Ride height was much better than I expected (coming from an SUV)
• Stock spare tire and jack are in place and dust free

Possible future mods

1. Engine swap (supercharged small-block maybe?_
2. 4 disc brakes
3. New instrument dials (speedometer, tachometer etc)
4. Make hood blisters functional (if possible)
5. T-top or targa conversion

Questions

1. I realized that if I stepped on the clutch too quickly, the car would be jerky, when I depressed it slowly, the shifts were as smooth as silk. The clutch was pretty tough though. Is this normal?
2. Living in Saudi Arabia the weather get's hot, but since I'm in a coastal city, we get lots of humidity. How bad do 3rd gen F-bodies rust?
3. Where should I look for rust in the car?
4. Mileage in an old photo (March 28 2008) says 59,648.4, new photo (October 10 '09) says 55,305.4. Should I be concerned?
5. Owner offered to check the mileage using the ECU. Is this possible?
6. Owner said that the car had disc brakes at front, and drum brakes at the back. Is the factory setup on the '91 Camaro Z28?
7. Might do a history check (carfax) on the car. Do you guys think it's worth it?
8. The car is in a very good condition. Is it worth the asking price of $8,500?

Next steps

1. I'll have "the talk" part II with the wife!
2. considering offering $6000-6500 max.

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

1. Probably, hard to tell over the web
2. They don't rust that badly, they are less susceptible then a lot of cars
3. Battery tray, wheel wells
4. Ask about it
5. No
6. Yes
7. 20 bucks is cheap insurance sometime... however Carfax doesn't uncover lots of things
8. Its hard to say, we don't know the import market in Saudi Arabia. In the US, probably not, but they where built here. Take into account you can't just import one anymore, it's about the price I'd be asking.

Revserse the "next steps" and I think you are golden.

I wouldn't do a t-top/targa conversion considering how hot it gets over there.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Im new to this thred and just skimmed it but what about trading your wife for 4 a diff one thats car friendly?

raymanism

I might just do that... Contact the guy, tell him what I can afford and see his response before committing.

I actually owned a convertible a while back. Everyone thinks Saudi Arabia isn't a place to drive a convertible. I think that's not true... Many men drive Harlies here.. Does the heat stop them? No... I believe it's a lifestyle thing; you either love it or hate it.

In the UK they have way too many convertibles, yet they rarely have dry weather!

Wouldn't trade my wife for the whole world! She already puts-up with a lot being with me!

Guest

I have a 92 formula with the LB9 and a 5 speed, you will love this combination. I live in Las Vegas Nevada which has several months out of the year over 100 degrees. These cars run good in the desert even at the high temperatures I have not had any problems. Keep in mind that the $8500 is the asking price, you need to negotiate!

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

I live in Washington State, so I know about the rare dry weather. Our climate is a lot like that of the UK. One thing to remember is that the t-top cars have much more of a greenhouse affect then Verts or hard tops. The Verts either let a lot of light in, but also let the heat out when the top is down, or they do a better job of blocking the sun.

But it is something that would be completely up to you, of course. I found the little time I spent in hotter climates the t-tops where mostly only good at night. But, Good luck in the negotiations with both the seller and your wife!

raymanism

This is good to know. Probably the Formula does better in the hot weather than a Trans-Am since it has air intakes (next to the fog-lamps) which the T/A lacks.

Very true. My uncle had cardboard cutout in the shape of the T-tops to block the heat! I think there are after market shades for the T-tops, right?

Thanks! I need all the luck! I'm doing as you suggested... Negotiating with the owner before the wife. Last night I was checking the classifieds site where the car was posted and it was gone! I panicked... But fortunately when I contacted the owner, he said that the car is still available! However, the owner claims there's another guy interested in the car, and that I need to reserve it if I'm interested because the other guy started negotiating the price...

I told him that I like the car, and that I'm a fan of the 3rd gen Camaro, but that I can't offer him the asking price of $8500 (being honest). I asked him to tell me how much the other guy is offering to see if I could afford the price or not.. He replied saying the other guy (or my arch-nemesis!) is offering $7750, and the owner's final price is $8000.

The other buyer still didn't respond, but will give his final reply sometime today.

I'm panicking again now (I was texting the owner while typing this post)!

I replied by saying:
Will report back... Sorry if you guys aren't interested in these details!

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

Yes, actually, there are even factory t-top shades.

I know it's hard, but if the car isn't for you, it isn't for you. The right car will come along. If it is meant for you then I have no doubts that the car gods will smile and you will have a Z28 in your driveway

raymanism

Just did a Carfax report on the car....

The guy's story doesn't add up with the Carfax report...

The title I saw said the car was registered in Santa Ana, CA, which is correct, but the last recorded mileage says this:
Date: 03/26/2008
Mileage: 159,638
Source: Auto auction
Comments: Sold at auction in Pacific Region Listed as a dealer vehicle

So the mileage is off by 100,000 miles!!!!!

The guy said he bought the car from the original owners, but the comments says the car was listed as a dealer vehicle.

The owner also says he has owned the car for 2 years, but this shows that it was sold on March 26 2008, just a year and a half ago (ok, almost 2 years)

Maybe he bought it from the dealer, but met the original owner... That doesn't justify mileage difference??!!

Ok... I just checked my older post... Get this... He sent me a photo of the interior which dates back to March 28 2008, which is just two days after it was sold at the auction.. The mileage in that picture read 59,648... or so I thought! The image was taken from the left side, so I guess the 1 was hidden. This means that on March 28 2008 it had 159,648 miles on the clock, not 59,648! Which makes sense, the car was driven for 10 miles from the time it was sold... I'm guessing this picture was taken before it shipped to Saudi Arabia.

Obviously the "current" mileage of 55,305 is completely baloney!

The guy is lying through his teeth. Wouldn't be surprised if the "other buyer" didn't exist....

Should i confront the guy?!

What do you guys think I should do next??

The problem is that although this guy is most likely lying, I don't have that many other options for getting a 3rd gen f-body, and I can't import one anymore...

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

Mileage isn't of that much importance, IMHO. I've seen cars with 60k on them that are beat and cars with 150k that are in great shape. So I wouldn't let the mileage be a complete turn off. However, you do need to bring it to his attention. The "other buyer" is a typical ploy... sometimes it is real, sometimes it is not. I wouldn't call that lying, that is "salesmanship".

If this was in the US I'd be more inclined to say "walk away"... however, like you said the market for Thirdgens in Saudi Arabia is pretty limited.

webeeZ28

iTrader: (2)

.....Red flags starting to appear. Have the car checked out thoroughly if you're still interested. What else isn't this guy telling you about the car? Don't let the desire to own a third gen cloud your judgement. Due to it being a tight monetary situation to own this car, you don't need any headaches right off the bat. That will throw a monkey wrench into your marriage for sure! Good luck.

67tothefuture

I highly recommend you walk away from this car!!!!!! I can tell you want it badly, but if you spend the money and it turns out to be a total lemon (which is highly plausible) you will feel like a idiot. And I would ask yourself, is this really the car you want (color, condition, mileage, interior, price, etc...) or are you feeling you have to buy this car because there is no other choice.
The man is lying to you. The car has >150,000 miles. Your wife is concerned about it breaking down and so would I. You really have no idea how many miles this car has. The story of the car from your carfax is untrue. I say you take your time and look for the right car. Though there may not be many 3rd gen Camaros in Saudia Arabia, I am sure there are some there. They will come up for sale. I was not too long ago in your shoes. Had a IROC vert I was going to buy. Then found out it had a salvage title as I was ready to buy the car, after the guy told me it was clear. I waited and eventually found a great car. I think you should do the same thing. Don't confront the guy, just let it go!

Zwrench

I have to say that i agree with everything in this post I also agree that red flags are appearing like webeeZ28 said.

Other than having great taste in cars, I don't know what your level of expertise in automobiles is. The car looks great from the pictures to me but, that doesn't tell the whole story. Can you take the car to a trusted friend or mechanic who could put it up on a rack or at least give it the 'once over'? I can check out a car myself but, if I couldn't, I'd get someone to go over it with a magnifying glass.

>150,000 miles on one of these cars wouldn't scare me a bit. But, it becomes a problem when the owner tries to represent the car as something it isn't. There's something more here that requires diligence on your part to ascertain.

If you buy the car and it breaks down 'at the first stoplight', your wife was right. You've done some homework on this car but, I think more is required.

I also believe, after what you've posted, that you are in a better bargaining position than you may think!

Good luck and keep us posted! We are interested.

kizz

iTrader: (1)

1) there is some kind of yellow stain under the gas door on the driver's side rear quarter panel. I see it in at least 2 pictures.

2) maybe it's just my bad perception, but the odometer between the 59,000 mile picture and the (newer) 55,000 mile picture seems to have moved quite a bit to the right, to where the leading "0" is a lot more visible in the newer pic. Either this confirms odometer tampering, or it's just the angle of the pics. only you can decide if this is the case, by maybe looking at it in real life again and comparing to the 59,000 pic.

3) obviously he's flat out lying to you, so the $8500 is ancient history! The 159,000 odometer existed under his ownership, if he has had it for 2 years as you said. so what I would do is offer a ridiculously low offer like $3000 and tell him that you have the Carfax to prove that he's lying, and that if he's lying about this, who knows what else could be hidden? ask him to explain the 159,000 under his ownership, knowing full well there *IS* no explanation, other than odometer rollback...

good luck.

raymanism

Guys, thanks for all your responses!

Mileage wouldn't have been a concern for me either, after all it is an 18 year old car. Lying about the mileage to sell the car for a higher price however is a totally different story. I was thinking that the owner had the right to ask $8500 for a car so difficult to find here with such a low mileage. Not anymore!

Agreed. Nothing's wrong with saying someone else is interested in something you're selling.

I'd have to agree with Zwrench. I think that with the information that I found (partially from the seller him self, from the photo he sent me!) I can now bargain even more with him. I think I'll offer him $4000, which I believe is generous given that he lied about the mileage and all. This would be a gain for me since it's $2000 less than my previous minimum offer (was willing to pay $6000-6500), and $4000 less than his final price ($8000). Before I found out about the mileage, I would've felt bad if the car was sold to someone else just because I couldn't afford it. Now, if the seller finds someone else who'd buy it for more than what I'm offering, I'd wish the new owner the best of luck (poor guy, could've been me)!

@Zwrench Thank you sir Honestly, although I'm a huge car buff, I wouldn't say I'm an expert at all. Thankfully though, a friend of mine has a workshop and I trust him. I can have him take a look and have him give me his opinion on it.

This is why I come here and post my findings; so I don't let the desire cloud my judgement It's like taking one step back, looking at the whole situation and thinking about it all over again rationally!

Yeah, I now know for sure that I still want a 3rd gen badly. This would be the third 3rd gen car I try to buy. The first car was a black '92 T/A GTA. This car was beautiful, but it was back in the late 90s, I was still in school and I couldn't afford the car. The second car was a beat-up '82-83 Firebird. The owner had a ridiculously high asking price and wouldn't take our offer... Times have changed now.. Back then, I'd always say to my self that if I didn't find a good 3rd gen locally, I'd import one one day. *** this new import law

Honestly, the car has lots of things that I like... I hope I get a chance to buy it for a reasonable price. But as AmorgetRS said, if it wasn't meant to be, I guess I'll have to accept the decision of the car gods!

Thanks man... I'll let the guy know that I found out about the mileage and see what he says. If he would still talk to me, I'll probably ask to see the car again with my friend (which can't happen till Thursday 'cause the guy works out of town!). If we don't find any major issues, I'll offer around $4000, $4500 max. One thing is for sure though; the guy knows 3rd gen F-bodies. He knows known issues with 3rd gens, he knows about the 1LE package, he knows what Iroc stands for, he knows that the 350 engine didn't come with a 5-speed. All of which isn't typical for someone who isn't a fan, especially for someone from Saudi Arabia, since these cars aren't so popular here. This is probably the reason I'm not walking away, because although it has a high mileage, the guy is still taking care of it. If the seller was a greedy dealer just lying left and right I'd totally walk away.

Let's see how it goes from here. It could either get interesting, or everything might come to a conclusion! Fingers crossed!!

***EDIT***
Didn't want to double post... Kizz replied while I was typing.. You know what? I like the idea of offering $3000 even more Who knows, this might just work :P