Thirdgen Ranch

iTrader: (5)

I’ve noticed there has been a lot of posts recently regarding the amount of restoration parts available for 82-92 Camaros and Firebirds. Most of the discussions concern the cost, quality, and amount of parts available. Of course, most of you know I started Thirdgen Ranch so I know the thirdgen parts business better than just about anybody. However, what most people don’t know is that before that, I was quality manager for a large OEM auto supplier so I know the automotive parts business very well. I figure there’s not too many people who can give you better insight into the OEM and restoration parts business so I thought I would post some information to help you understand the parts market a little better.

I’d like to start by saying I’ve always been a little surprised by how many people here complain about about the lack of reproduction parts available when so many good used parts and even original GM parts are still available. No matter what collectors market you’re in, “reproduction” is almost always a bad word. Remember, only an “original” part is truly “original”. Even the best reproduction piece is still a reproduction. It’s funny that so many people on this site complain about how few reproduction parts are available compared to older cars. I can guarantee that most people with older cars would love to have a many good affordable used parts available as we still have for our cars. With that said, let’s take a look at the reproduction parts business.

I’ll start with the amount of parts available. I saw that somebody posted the other day saying people needed to start contact GM Restoration Parts to start pressing them to start making more parts for our cars. That person claim GM would be more than happy to start making parts again if the demand was there. Coming from a large OEM manufacturer, I can tell you nothing could be further from the truth. The VAST majority of parts are made by outside vendors, not GM. In most cases, these suppliers are only interested in extremely large parts orders over a long period of time. (The company I worked for had production lines that were set up to run one part and one part only. Each line ran the same part all day everyday 365 days a year.) We’re talking about orders of hundreds of thousands of parts in many cases. When you’re talking about restoration parts you may only be talking about a run of 250 to 500 pieces tops and most of those companies would have little interest in that.


With original OEM out of the question, that means that most restoration parts will have to come from other companies. This leads to many issues regarding quality and cost but for now we’ll focus on production. Anytime there is a buyer willing to pay for a specific item there will be somebody willing to manufacture it. That means, the problem is actually with the companies selling parts, not the manufacturers. However, the resellers are the ones taking on most of the risk. In most cases, a manufacturer will require a minimum order before starting production of an item. This number can vary but it is likely to be at least in the low hundreds. This is where the problem lies, a company needs to know it will be able to move these parts in a reasonable amount of time.


I’ll give you an example. Say a company is willing to make a part for us for $50 each they require a minimum order of 200. We would be looking at an initial investment of $10,000. For a small parts business $10,000 is a sizable initial investment for only one part and we would need to determine how quickly we could sell those 200 parts to decide if it was worth the investment. I can tell you for certain that those 200 parts would NOT sell fast!!!


Earlier this year, we started to offer LOTS more new replacement and reproduction parts because of the amount of requests we were getting for them. Also, in most cases, we have been able to beat our competitors pricing. I have been extremely surprised with how slow most of these parts are selling. For example, let’s look at one of the more inexpensive reproduction parts we offer. We have every style of reproduction of window switches available and they are very nice pieces and we sell them for $27.50 each. Of course, these are pieces that MANY people need and at only $27.50 each they are very affordable. How many of these pieces do you think we sell a month? I’ll bet you would be shocked to hear that I don’t think we have sold as many a five a month in the six months or so that we have been selling them!!! I’m glad I chose to take the safe route and buy a small amount of these to start with. Could you imagine if we had chosen to start with an initial order of 200? If we sold only five a month it would take over three years to sell them. If a small business like ours invested $10,000 into parts that would take over three years to sell we wouldn’t be in business long!!!


Of course, that is just one example. Some of the reproduction parts we offer sell very well. However, until a part is released, it is anybody’s guess what items will sell and what won’t. In this economy, you’re not going to find many companies will to take a gamble on coming out with many parts when some items prove to be slow movers.

Now, lets take a look and cost and quality. I’m going to cover both of these together because they go hand in hand. To start with, I see lots of people complaining about the quality of aftermarket parts available. Let me tell you, it is not just the 82-92 Camaro/Firebird market that suffers from poor quality parts. Even the muscle car market is full of inferior quality parts. The truth is, many of the companies making reproduction parts for our cars are the same ones making parts for others.


It’s true there are lots of very poor quality parts available for our cars. We have looked into offering many of the same parts our competitors sell but I refuse to carry them because they are basically garbage. (After working as a quality manager for an OEM supplier, I’m pretty picky about the quality of parts we sell.) I’ll give you a couple of examples.


The replacement seat covers many of our competitors sell look like a great option for most people. However, when you’re spending $350 to $400 for four seat covers the quality is going to be very bad. Our testing has shown significant wear in a little as a few months. The company that makes these covers makes them for many older cars as well so it’s not just our cars. Why can’t somebody come out with a high quality original cover? Well, we tried. However, the cost basically made it out of the question. We talked to a shop that does excellent quality work and was able to get many styles of original GM fabric. Unfortunately, prices for high quality covers made from original fabric would have been in the $1500 range. How many sets of those do you think we could sell at that price. I would guess maybe a set or two a year…tops. We are still working on offering a much better quality option than what is currently available. Hoepfully, we will have something soon.


Another common part nearly EVERY thirdgen needs is weatherstripping. There are lots of aftermarket replacements available and the best quality pieces are, at best, “decent”. There isn’t a single kit available that I would use on a car of my own. (My general rule is that if I wouldn’t use it on my car, I won’t sell it.) The good news is that original GM pieces are still available. Unfortunately, original pieces are expensive. However, when you consider that they are VASTLY better quality than aftermarket they are well worth the extra money. We’ve found that many of the people that buy the original GM weatherstrip from our site only do so after trying one of more aftermarket sets first only to find out that none of it fits or seals correctly. Just remember, it’s always cheaper to do the job right the first time.


Now, let’s take a look at a few of the specific parts I see mentioned from time to time. I’ll start with dashpads. Everytime somebody posts something about what parts they would like to see available “cheap dashpads” is always on the list. Let me tell you, you will never see an inexpensive dashpad. There are reproduction dashpads available right now in the $350 to $400 range. I’ve seen people here mention that they would consider spending that kind of money on a new dashpad as long as it was a very good quality piece. Unfortunately, $400 will NOT get you a quality dashpad. Remember, quality and cost are usually a trade-off and that is probably about the range where you can offer a decent quality piece at a decent price and still be able to sell a decent amount of them. I don’t know for sure but I would guess a very high quality dashpad would probably sell for at least $700 to $750. Right now, there’s definitely not enough of a market at that price to even consider coming out with a higher quality piece.

To give you a better idea of quality vs. cost let’s look take a look as the reproduction Camaro console doors that are available. These are very high quality pieces that are very comparable to the original GM pieces. I saw a post from somebody not long ago concerning the price of these. (I believe it was 58 Mark). He was talking about how console doors used to be about $60 and now all the sudden the cost had more than doubled. I can tell you there is a very simple explanation for this. The original pieces that were in the $60 range were original GM pieces. The more expensive pieces that are available now are reproductions. Why the price difference you ask? Again, it basically comes down to cost vs. quality. These pieces are most likely made by somebody other than the original manufacturer. Because of that, many pre-production costs would come into account. (Equipment, tooling, design, research and development, etc.) The original OEM manufacturer would have had these same costs but would have been able to spread those costs over hundreds of thousands of parts. In this case, those costs would be spread over maybe a few hundred parts. Because of that, the costs will be much higher. Of course it would be possible to offer a piece at the same $60 piece as the original. However, in order to do it you would have to sacrifice quality.


Another one I saw recently was Camaro hood insulation. Scottmoyer was able to find somebody willing to make new hood insulation for $80 each with a minimum order of 250. That’s an initial cost of $20,000!!! He said he wasn’t able to get any of the bigger parts vendors to commit and I’m not at all surprised. If we have a hard time selling five new window switches a month at a cost of under $30 each how long do you think it would take to sell 250 pieces of hood insulation at a cost of about $100 each? Honestly, I don't think I would touch that deal with a minimum order of ten. They just wouldn't sell fast enough.


The most important thing to remember is that the reproduction parts market is MUCH smaller than OEM so quality vs. cost ALWAYS comes into play. Quality costs money so most reproduction parts will never match OEM quality because the initial production costs need to be spread over a much smaller number of parts. OEM quality parts can be made but at a higher cost that will shrink the market even more so most suppliers will choose to make a lesser quality part that will be affordable to a wider market.


This is only a start and there's LOTS I didn't cover. I could go on and on about this but I think this at least gives you a little insight into the reproduction parts business and answers some of the questions concerning cost and quality. Trust me, more and more pieces will be available in the years to come but it will take time.

We are working to offer more and more parts and will continue to do so. We are also working to offer higher quality reproduction pieces that are already available. I'm sure other suppliers are working to develop new parts as well.

puma1552

iTrader: (1)

These cars are unfortunately viewed as throwaways by the industry, because they are viewed as throwaways by most of the owners.

That's about all you needed to say.

Thirdgen Ranch

iTrader: (5)

Actually, they're really not seen as "throwaways". They are more seen as a "developing market". Unfortunately, these cars are at a time where they are getting old enough so that there are fewer left on the road but not old enough to where many people have started to restore them. It basically happens to everything.

What most people don't realize is that there was a time when 60's muscle cars were in the same situation. I remember when you could pick up 60's Camaros, Chevelles, GTOs, Chargers, etc for dirt cheap. Nobody wanted them and people routinely parted them out or scrapped them.

That's where our cars are at now but our market will increase soon as well. They were just starting to increase in value before the economy hit the wall so that is definitely coming into play now but nice, low milage cars are still increasing in value and it won't be long until others are affected as well. As the market increases, the supply of parts will follow.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Hey Denny, what's up with those OEM reproduction muffler/tailpipe assemblies we were talking about on FB?

BTW, IF a perfect reproduction molded hood insulation were available for 80 bucks each, I'd buy two right now. Shipping would be a bear, however!

puma1552

iTrader: (1)

Problem is, they sold 200k+ of a lot of those muscle cars annually, and they hit a point of desirability long before the 20-30 year mark.

I was here 10+ years ago and people said our cars would start going up soon, hasn't happened unless it's the typical low mileage original. I paid $4300 for mine 13 years ago, and I could *maybe* get $6000 for it on the best of best days; but then I realize it's a thirdgen, and some hillbilly with no education and a crusty Chevy racing hat would take it on a test drive and rag the **** out of it, then offer me three bucks.

If it hasn't really happened after 30 years, when are you expecting it will? Muscle car prices skyrocketed in the '80s. We are waiting for a day that will never really come, just like a '79-'86 Mustang will never be worth a fortune.

The other issue working against us is that most young people wouldn't bother paying for/fixing up a turdgen when they can go drop their dimes on a 400+ hp car today that wipes the floor with our cars in every way, with a warranty to boot; it takes a special person to want to drop serious coin on underdog '80s cars that are caught between the romantic '60s and the high tech 2000s.

The only thing you can really do is buy up as many of the NOS parts as possible. When they are gone, they are gone, and I wouldn't expect much to happen on the resto front.

Thirdgen Ranch

iTrader: (5)

Charlie, the OEM reproduction exhausts is just one of many things we're working on right now and I have no idea how soon we could have them.

Also, that hood insulation that Scott lined up was $80 cost from the manufacturer. That didn't include any kind of dealer markup. I'm sure you're in the minority of people who would be willing to spend that kind of money on hood insulation and it doesn't surprise me that no parts retailer was willing to commit to the deal with a minimum order of 250. I can't imagine how long it would take to move 250 of them.

Thirdgen Ranch

iTrader: (5)

Muscle cars prices didn't skyrocket in the 80's. They were a dime a dozen in the 80's. They were seen as gas guzzling hogs and many people were happy to get what ever they could for them. I graduated in '90 and the high school parking lots were loaded with muscles cars that were bought for next to nothing. A good friend of mine used to by '68 and '69 SS Chevelles in high school just to part them out.

The prices really started to go up in the '90's. The economy has hurt most of the collector car market at a time when our cars were just starting to go up in value. There's NO doubt they will continue to increase in value as the economy improves. Will they ever be worth the kind of money that muscle cars have gotten too? Probably not but that doesn't mean they still can't be worth good money.

red rock

iTrader: (2)

Thanks for the insight. I for one would rather refinish or re salvage a OEM part than buy aftermarket. I have bought some aftermarket parts and have had problems with fit and finish. A prime example is a aftermarket fender vs. a used OEM. One of the common complaints I see is the people that need emission parts to keep their cars smog compliant. In some cases new parts are no longer available and used parts are getting harder to find. So if it isn't cost effective to make some aftermarket parts, because of the years our cars were built, we may find less of them on the roads in some states.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

I hate to point out the obvious, but part of the problem is the cost of the reproductions. How can you expect me to pay almost $30 for a reproduction window switch, when I could get the real thing NOS, for $12 each all day long at the dealer? That $80 hood insulation is a bit repulsive too, when only a few years ago they were $25 with free shipping at the dealer. The prices need to be in line. Just because a part goes obsolete over night doesn't mean that the value suddenly skyrockets. At the very least it's going to take awhile for the consumer to adjust. I'm just thankful I acquired a wide variety of NOS parts when they were still dirt cheap. I only regret leaving a bunch of them on a car I sold, that some ******* parted a few years later. If I'd stripped the parts before selling the car, I'd be sitting on at least $500 worth of lightly used NOS parts.

NCGuy68

Why do you say shipping would be a bear? I have a NOS insulator (GM part #14047972) that I received years ago via UPS. I doubt it weighs more then 10 lbs. in its original packaging. I plan to offer it for sale next spring and I'll ship it via UPS with plenty of INSURANCE on it. The first time its ever been out of the GM packaging was month to take some photos.

Have a look.

jlarsson

iTrader: (5)

Thirdgen Ranch; totaly with you on what you say and can't agree more.

What people don't realise is that reproduction parts, as you briefly mentioned, require all new tooling and the engineering work that goes with it ... the suppliers GM used normally have to scrap the tooling when the last order was placed or they might even have been worned out to the point where GM decided it was time to scrap and not repair/replace due to low demand of that perticular part.

Quality (and cost) of the tooling along wiht the quality of the material used is what determines the quality and the cost of the final part ... and without a very large volume the parts will become very expensive.

Another factor to consider is the cost of the GM licensing, not a cheap thing and the commitment when you sign on the dotted line is not trivial or cheap ...

Anyway I keep my post short, I've been in the automotive supply chain so fully aware of the requirements and the cost of tooling and manufcaturin in general and involved with both the automotive OEM's and supply chain to this day and it's not got any cheaper :-)

I would love to see high quality spares for our cars but know that quality and cost goes hand in hand and producing a couple of 100 of any type of part is a struggle both from a manufacturing/quality point of view as well as the supplier/consumer point of view.

NOS or really nice used parts is what I look for ... and they are getting more expensive and much harder to find these days compared to 10 years ago when I got most of the stuff I needed to restore my car luckily ...

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Its not the weight, its the size of the box also. Its crazy but they think it should cost more to ship a big box of air than a small box that weighs a ton..

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Remember Keith, the 4 mile IROC guy and the thread he had going here about it a while ago? He posted a pic of a hood insulation he bought from GM for the car and was wondering why it looked so weird. It had foil in one side and a hole in the middle. I thought, OMG, I've been searching all over the country for a new, original Crossfire one, (with zero success), and Keith apparently got the lvery ast one from GM by accident. I PM'd him immediately and bought it. He was 100 miles from me, and UPS would have charged $100 to ship the package. Good thing he was close enough where I could work out the pick up.

NCGuy68

I know UPS and Fed Ex are high on some stuff but thats just nuts. Hell, Grayhound or common carrier/truck would be cheaper then that. I'am certainly not going to roll mine up and stuff it in a box. Gonna have to do some research when the time comes to ship.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

There's one problem with most of this discussion: Pretty much all of the parts being discussed are little things with less than $100 value in the first place.

Let's start talking about big heavy body parts. Yes, originals are expensive, when you can find them (and in most cases you can't find them new). What is the deal with the repros getting their hands on original OEM NEW parts (which I'm sure they can with the money they have) and producing parts that actually FIT? There's a ton of OEM steel Bird hoods out there (that haven't been damaged!), but the RAII hood is still not shaped right. One would think they would fix this after YEARS of bad fitment and complaints, but nooooo...

Now, I (and I'm sure many others as I can't tell you how many cars I've seen with rust or dent damage) would like to see FULL replacement Firebird quarter panels. Not skins, FULL REPLACEMENT PANELS, including the sail up to the factory roof joint. You can't say they're a dime a dozen because every single one I've seen (passenger's side) is either dented, bent by a crash, or chewed up by rust in the J/Y. And shipping decent ones (generally the whole back corner of the car rather than just the outer panel to save weight and packing materials), from down in the no-rust states, is ridiculous. There are NONE available... Classic Industries and YearOne stopped carrying full replacement GM panels years ago (if someone finds just the outer panel, let me know, because I've been looking for 2 years now!), and there are NO repros available.

I'm sure a lot of us would rather pay good money for repro panels with just the metal we need, rather than paying a whole load of money for a bunch of extra steel we can't make anything back with because scrap yards pay pennies for a pound of steel, and losing money in the process. As long as the fit is decent.

rarebmx

iTrader: (6)

I would like to buy NOS, OEM parts - heck the window switches - I have added them to the basket numerous times but I still have worn out rear hatch switch screen printing. I cannot put brand new items next to used. I pot a "WANTED" ad out for a NOS or super nice rear hatch switch and got zero response. I am willing to pay up to $100 for one! I have bought passenger seats in Beachwood since there is no good seat out there reproduction. I will pay someone to sew them together and make good seats out of original material. Cost isn't the factor to me as much as being correct!

I have contacted one Site Supporter on here looking for a small item (cig lighter) they had listed on their site, showed they had some, added it to the cart, then figured I would add a couple trim screws on since shipping would be the same. Low and behold the screws show up and no lighter. They don't have any at this time. NEVER will I buy from them again. In fact, I had gotten an email before the order went out stating they were sedning only screws, I called to tell them to cancel the order. A young lady answered and I asked her why this was the case and she told me that on the site it says to call and confirm since it was used. Yes, on some items that is stated but not on this item. Then she told me, I am not the only customer they have and she really doesn't care if I buy anything from them. I told he the better response would be, let me know before you ship and call (since you have my number) if you don't have all the items on a small order - we hung up and they were not going to ship. I got a call a few minutes later from unsaid company stating they are sorry and will not happen again and they would hold the order and sorry for the way this young lady talked to me. THEN I get the order, call them and asked what happened? Mistake, and they asked what they could do - I said, I got the screws, just refund the shipping since I shouldn't just get them for free - "No Problem, we want your buisiness". No refund still and for that small order - screw them. I truly have a LONG list of items to buy. Since buying our car in Oct '11, I have spent $1200 on mechanical, $800 on buying parts and I figure another $2-3K easily by next year, carpet, trim, weatherstripping. They will not get another dime (small order).

There is one other company that shipped lightning fast for the first order, Second order, still waiting on a response.... I buy, I will spend the $. Communicate and I will be as loyal as the day is long. I will but NOS or nice OEM and I will pay the premium - I finally bought the lighter off eBay.... I just think that if the parts are going to be made, great but who didn't think to make the hatch release that sits right next to the window switches? The price is cheap for the window switches and actually cheaper than it should be.
Seat covers for my Vette are over $800 and that is for 2 seats. My theory is: price stuff higher and it will make the values of the cars go up, it will keep the riff raff from buying them.... Everyoe needs to make a buck and tooling is expensive. Heck, if someone made great rub on declas for the hatch switch I would buy thise until I could find a NOS one. There are other ways to make it look restored.

On the post above mine, no rust here and won't be looking for body parts. Too many nice bodies out there to spend crazy money fixing one not in great exterior shape. The small items is what didn't hold up, charge more and maybe some of these cars will be sold to people who have the resources. If it comes easy, it is not as rewarding. I know a guy who has been restoring a 69 for over 10 years and looking and waiting for OEM parts when they come along, and trust me, they always come along. There are people out there with NOS parts being hoarded.

cerberus

Nice post, I would like a new shifter ***.

Thirdgen Ranch

iTrader: (5)

Well, I already covered this in the first post but it should be obvious why quality reproduction parts cost more. The original GM supplier for window switches was probably under contract to produce over a million window switches. The company producing the reproductions is probably looking at producing 500 to 1000. Since a new company is producing them, all new equipment, tooling, and other development costs come into play just like the original switches had. However, the OEM manufacturer was able to spread those costs over a million parts while the company producing the reproductions has to spread them over a much smaller amount.

Think about it, the more parts you order the better price you'll be able to get. GM probably ordered over a million window switches from the OEM manufacturer so it only makes sense they will be cheaper. The only way to produce a reproduction comparably priced is usually by skimping on quality.

82tarecaro

iTrader: (4)

The dealers still have window switches?

rarebmx

iTrader: (6)

I got a print out of EVERY dealer in the country two weeks ago. Called every one that showed one switch. They were gone and some did not even have them in the system anymore. If they are out there, go for it. I would buy if I could find one NOS but they don't seem to be out there now.

82tarecaro

iTrader: (4)

I didn't think they were available anymore. I picked up a set of the repros from Denny- they are nice. I don't have anything but my worn switch to compare it to, but it appears to be a nice repro.

puma1552

iTrader: (1)

Curious here, being that you are a parts supplier, what's your proposed solution to this whole debacle?

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Note "could", not "can", implying past tense. It wasn't very clear, but I was referring to the relatively recent past when the window switches were still available, they were dirt cheap.

The flip side of the "small quantity = higher prices" is that if the price was more reasonable, they'd sell a lot more of them. At $15 each (accounting for inflation), and some advertising, it stands to reason more people would be buying. At $60 per car, it's a lot to spend to fix the rubbed off "UP" and "DN" markings, or the faded window outline. At half the price it starts becoming a lot more reasonable.

jlarsson

iTrader: (5)

Problem you have is the break point on volume where price falls dramaticly, having 500 made instead of 250 wont drop price by 50% ... you are looking at 25000 made vs 250 maybe and then try to figure out if you would be able to sell that volume over a 3 year period for instance @ the 50% price point compared to selling the 250 over the same period of time @ the 100% price point.

It all sounds very simple however the market is not there for the very large volumes to make it viable as a business with high quality and low prices.

If GM would have sold very large quantaties of the window switches maybe they would still produce them however I bet that over those last 5 years they did carry them the demand dropped dramaticly.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Their are alot of variations on 3rd gen window switches. Functionally, I'm pretty sure that they all interchange. Getting the "correct" ones for your car is a different matter however. I paid about 70 bucks on ebay to get new, correct, window switches for my '83, to replace the faded and cracked original ones.

burnout88

I am pretty sure I actually bought the last GM dealer stocked window switch. I had got a list of dealers showing them in their inventory from my local dealer and started calling. A lot of them did not actually have the switch. Then I finally got to a little dealer in Iowa that actually had one on the self. I paid $16 for it. Never could find another one after that.

cerberus

Yup what he said. We can all b!tch.

I also sent GM RESTORATION a qoute from this topic and wanted them to respond in kind to these concerns via Email. We will see what they have to say.

82tarecaro

iTrader: (4)

GM restoration is just there to collect money when a company reproduces a product and needs licensing for it. GM isn't making anything for our cars anymore, and they never will. They don't make anything for the cars from the big, bad muscle car era either. It is up to independent companies to fill that niche. If you want original, you have to do your homework and find it. Reproductions will never be exact, no matter how well they are made. Purists won't want them on their 100% original cars anyway. Me, I don't mind a nicely made repro. Sometimes a repro could be made a little better. The original window switches turned grey and the white lettering disappeared. Hopefully the repros won't do that. Many of the interior parts in my car have stress cracks. My original t top seals leaked since I bought the car 22 years ago. Let's face it - the quality on these cars was pretty low when they were new. So hopefully, when a company decides to reproduce a part, they can improve on some of the original materials used. I know that the company reproducing window switches is a small outfit - PWD. If you buy direct from them, the owner, Dave Clee actually fills the orders. He is very conscientious about the quality of his products. I bought a reproduction 20th anniversary emblem set from him, and they are actually nicer then the originals on the car. Are they exact? No. But the consistency in the quality and the color and plating looks better. Hopefully they last longer then the originals.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

That's another thing... One would think, with the number of people on this site and others like it (truck sites, W-body sites, Corvette sites, etc), that GM would wake up and smell dollar signs. I'm sure there are any number of people on sites like this that work for GM parts departments, and I'm sure someone could say, "Hey! We have a market here for original parts! Why aren't we putting people back to work in some of the defunct factories making these parts?" I mean, they have the original blueprints, designs, and in some cases, the parts themselves, right?

The way I look at it is this... GM wants us to buy new cars and scrap our old ones because they don't want to put good people back to work making the right parts to fix our cars/trucks/what have you properly. What they're missing is that there is a market that's going to the Chinese and Koreans that are making "replacement" parts when they could be pocketing a lot of money for parts that fit, look, and work like they're supposed to. For all anybody knows, they could make just as much money making/selling parts for our older cars as selling new cars and making parts for them that nobody really cares about because they're basically throwaways (like they say our cars are but we're trying to prove them wrong).

And we're still stuck with parts from junkyards that may or may not be health and safety hazards...

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

Not to speak for Denny, but I think the answer is pretty obvious. You need a large enough population who IS willing to pay 27 for a window switch that cost $12 to get from GM 10 years ago that it makes it financially viable for companies to start reproducing the parts. Right now, there isn't.

cerberus

The ball better start someplace and parts resellers and restoration places have to give us a listen.
Including GM restoration. if we dont raise our voices nothing will happen.

I think its utterly sophomoric for posters to assume most us dont know the ABC's of business and production.

GM restoration, Year One, Classic Ind, etc. have to know what we need. We must voice our needs some how and some way. I have not seen a single company mentioned above ever make a post here asking for our desire for a part. Go to a corvette board and suddenly you see small posts from these companies asking for a market response.


If we dont speak up now it wont happen.

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

Did you even read Denny's thread? Denny IS a supplier and parts reseller.

cerberus

Yes I did what is your point?

He is "a" supplier reseller NOT "the" supplier reseller, Is there something wrong with what I said? I did not offend him or counter any point he made. I did not disagree with the cost analysis. Infact I agree with him.

SO what is your point?

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

My point is that if one of the suppliers, who actually went to the effort to get parts repoped, is saying that it isn't financially viable because the parts just don't sell, then there is NO reason to believe that it will be any different for any of the other suppliers.

The people who are currently trying to make reproduction parts ARE here and listening. However, what they see a bunch of screaming for parts and then when they make them nobody buys them. Denny has been around the board for a long time and he saw a market for repop window switches and he took the risk to make those parts, but now they just don't sell well. Corvette owners have no problem putting down the cash for the parts these suppliers/vendors are selling. You won't see near the number of people will to pay that money in the Thirdgen crowd. The suppliers know that, it is why they are on the Corvette board.

scottmoyer

If I remember correctly, there is a member on this board that works for Eckler's also. They can only do so much when the bean counters and market analysts sing a different tune.

82tarecaro

iTrader: (4)

Cerberus -
Dave Clee from PWD regularly visits the thirdgen messageboards. I have seen posts over on GTAsource where guys tell him what they want. Contact him if you think there is a need for something. He will let you know if he thinks there is a market for it and if he can do anything for us.
sales@pwdstore.com
If and when these cars become more collectible, I am sure you will see more parts available for them.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Denny is one supplier trying to make a dollar, he's certainly not the only one. Ask others and I'm sure they'd echo his comments. I've been selling parts on this forum, and others like it, for years. I've never seen that it's profitable enough to sustain an organized business. It's hardly worth my trouble to list used parts I've got laying around. It's not at all worth it for me to seek out good parts to resell, because I can't get them for any less then what others would pay, and in most cases, I LOSE money selling thirdgen parts. I can seldom make as much off a part as it would cost me to replace it. And it hasn't gotten better over time, if anything the thirdgen parts market has gotten much worse in recent years. It's easily the worst used car part market I've tried to cater to.

What I've been very vocal about, is changing the community. Look at the Mustang community, and the market for Mustang parts. The Mustang community is much more interested in what makes the stock car unique, and appreciating them in that condition. They actually create that market by supporting enthusiasts that are interested in more than just going faster or flashy appearance modifications. It's not that there aren't Thirdgen enthusiasts and collectors that appreciate our cars, we are just the minority and we aren't represented, at all. We can start by changing the community to be more like the Mustang, Corvette, or even Fiero community.

The other point I've brought up, is that thirdgen owners are cheap. If a vendor wants to sell a part, it has to be cheap. Producing a quality product, that costs more than the target audience will pay, isn't going to work out well. A half *** reproduction isn't going to satisfy the serious enthusiast, but the serious enthusiasts don't represent a large enough market.

Thirdgen Ranch

iTrader: (5)

Actually, we aren't the ones that had the switches made, we are buying them from a distributor. However, I must say how slow they are selling definitely affects how willing we are to work to develop other parts. Over the summer we greatly expanded our line of new parts because of e-mails from customers, feedback on Facebook, and even posts on here.

The number of requests led us to believe that many new parts would become big sellers. However, that has not been the case. Some of the new items we added have sold very well, however, the majority of items have seen very slow sales. Companies are not going to be a big hurry to expand their reproduction parts lines when the parts they already offer are not selling fast.

As 82tarecaro stated, GM Reproduction Parts is basically just there to sell GM licensing to parts. Whether you like it or not, GM is in the business of selling new cars and trucks. In most cases, GM doesn't make the parts, they buy parts from outside vendors and assemble them to make a car. The majority of these suppliers are under contract to produce hundreds of thousands of parts over a period of years and would have no interest in running a small batch of reproduction parts. However, whether the part is being made by GM, an OEM supplier, or a company producing reproductions the same rules apply. First, the more items you produce the cheaper each item will be. Secondly, quality costs money. Unfortunately, both of these factors work against us in the reproduction market because we're dealing with much smaller market.

cerberus

GO TEAM THIRD GEN.

Spirited convo I appreciate. We obviously love the third gens. I am happy.

I think the message is loud an clear. Third gens are getting more rare and more collectible.

Our voices count and it looks like our (thirdgen.org) suppliers are willing to listen and help us.

rarebmx

iTrader: (6)

okay, I will buy switches from Denny this week. I will just set them aside untl I get a hatch switch though with good graphics.

puma1552

iTrader: (1)

These threads are so depressing. At one point in time a decade ago, they were really interesting when the newest thirdgens were still less than 10 years old and had the possibility of having a booming restoration market, now it's clear that will likely never really happen.

Classic argument of vendors wanting to sell a crappy part for an overpriced price to a market that wants 50 cent parts for their three dollar car. Who loses? The people who actually care.

Thirdgen Ranch

iTrader: (5)

Just because the market for reproduction parts is slow now doesn't mean it will always be that way. Twenty years ago the muscle car restoration market was small and just starting to grow. Now it's possible to basically build some muscle cars from scratch will all the restoration parts that are available.

Are there companies out there selling poor quality restoration parts for our cars...absolutely. However, I never said anything about wanting to sell crappy parts. As I said earlier, there are plenty of restoration parts available that I choose not to carry because I don't feel the quality is there. I'm sure we could make a lot of money selling reproduction weatherstripping but there isn't a single company making stuff I would put on my car. Luckily, original GM weatherstrip is still available and that is the only weatherstrip we carry. However, we don't sell much of it because most people don't want to spend the money for quality stuff that actually fits and seals correctly.

However, quality parts cost money so if people want good quality reproductions they need to be willing to spend a little extra money. Unfortunately, most people tend to choose price over quality.

82tarecaro

iTrader: (4)

Puma - have patience. We will get respect one day. When I was in college my buddy had a 1967 Camaro. At the time it was just considered an old hunk of junk. Now they go for decent money, and the market is there to restore them properly. The market has changed for the 1st gens and it will eventually for us.

FormerL69

iTrader: (2)

Great discussion.

Denny -- you can count on me to help make your 5 window switch per month quota next month. I need a switch for my '82 Pace Car. I really wish there were a replacement for the '82-style hatch switch too, but I get it that those aren't in demand what so ever. I'm glad you're offering the 82/83-specific window switch, even though the later 84+ switches would work fine.

In fact, a lot of the '82/83 stuff seems unique and, IMHO, unlikely to ever be repro'd simply because the demand isn't there. Maybe some day, but I don't see it happening any time soon.

The statements about the cost are right on the mark. Dashpads are a great example. I'd pay $750 in heartbeat for a quality repro '82 style dash pad. However, I have to believe that very, very, very few other people would every do that. Or they'd be willing to use a non-correct 84+ style pad and not care.

It certainly makes the hunt for "correct" parts much more challenging. I'm just getting started on my '82 and have already run into a handful of unique items that aren't available anywhere.

GTA50

I've gotta' tell you that Denny and Thirdgen Ranch are first rate. Parts arrive in incredible condition. I have bought repeatedly.

Yes, there are other suppliers and I have found also that Modern Day Muscle deals in some of the smaller stuff. So, yes I purchase there as well.

Finally, GM is also a source. And don't kid yourself, sometimes parts get lost!!!! I was at a GM dealership a number of years ago (but certainly well over the "20 year inventory") and some guy was picking up chrome door sill plates for a '69 Chevelle. This is not an urban myth, I saw them handed over the counter.

When you think that '91 and '92 are just crossing the threshold of a 20-year moratorium on dealer parts, then there is still a lot of inventory. For example, the rear drum shoes fit from my '84 T/A to my wife's '94 Firebird.

Is it going to be expensive, yes (markup from GM to dealer is at least 100%, from dealer to consumer is 100%)!!!! On the other hand, do you need it, want it, gotta' have it, can't find it anywhere else?

The only other option is aftermarket. My hope is that the copyright, licencing only lasts 25 years, then the repos' can become "full on".

Thirdgen Ranch

iTrader: (5)

Great, they are very nice pieces and I'm sure you'll be happy with them. Now if two more people buy sets we'll set a new monthly sales record. HaHa!!! Hopefully, we don't run out, I've been keeping fairly low numbers in inventory lately.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Well, nobody said these places had to start off with making a million of each part... All they really need is the tooling, molds, blueprints, etc. You make one window switch right, you should be able to make more right, correct? What I think most people don't understand is why these places insist on producing 5,000 or multiples of it of a single part, and then they give up when the parts don't sell very well. I mean, how many window switches go out, on however many power-window equipped thirdgens that are left, per year? Only reason I replaced mine is because they suffered the same thing that my suspension bushings did, they crumbled due to a severe climate change (Alabama, down by the Gulf, to WNY snow country). They were still plenty sound electrically, but they couldn't stay in position in the console due to no outer trim, and one of the rocker buttons fell out and got lost, leaving me with only one. Which is why I said "screw this" and went to RadioShack replacements, which haven't failed in about 6 years now (except for a broken connection on the wiring). Most people don't really care about how the switch looks. They just want something that WORKS because they need the window/headlights/etc NOW, so they get the replacement from a junkyard.

Yes, I understand the price of the metal tooling is high. Same for the copper inside and the oil that makes the outer plastic. But there's a difference between correctly reasonable and ridiculously priced but still correct. Which is why the "correct" repops don't sell very well. Back in 2005, I bought a replacement EGR solenoid for my car for about $85-90. Now it's $200 for the same thing, same part number, same manufacturer (GP Sorensen) and all. THAT'S what everyone is up in arms about. We want the right parts (in fit, use, and appearance), but we don't want to be ripped off in the process.

Thirdgen Ranch

iTrader: (5)

Trust me, nobody is making "millions" off these parts and nobody is producing 5000 of these parts at a time. The small amounts being produced is the reason prices are higher. The smaller the amount produced, the higher the cost will be.

As I said earlier, pre-production costs need to get factored into the price of the part. These costs are higher than what most people would think. Pre-production costs for the company I worked for were well into the millions for each part. Just the machines and tooling for new parts were in the millions and that doesn't take into account design costs, R&D, etc.

Of course, a company making restoration parts probably isn't seeing pre-production costs in the millions but they will still be high. They still need equipment, molds, tooling, R&D, etc. I wouldn't know what costs could be for a part like a window switch but I believe $5000 could be a realistic number. Now, let say a company decides to produce 500 of them. That breaks down to $10 per part in pre-production costs alone. The original OEM manufacturer definitely had higher pre-production costs but produced MILLIONS of switches so those costs probably amounted to only pennies per part. Let's say the OEM supplier had pre-production cost of $100,000. If they sold a million switches that only breaks down to 10 cents per part. So you're looking at each reproduction piece costing $9.90 more to produce. That is why reproduction parts of comparable quality will always cost more.

NCGuy68

Denny,

Although I haven't bought any parts from you yet, you have answered many questions truthfully and honestly from a venders point of view. I've dabbled in both NOS and used Camaro parts for many years as a hobby which includes 1stgen, 2ndgen and 4thgen. I have looked at your website and noted that you sell nothing that you wouldn't install on your own cars. Few sellers if any, can honestly make that claim.

Keep up the good work.

rarebmx

iTrader: (6)

I have bought a couple times from www.ThirdGenRanch.com and I have been very happy with the parts and service. I would recomend to buy from them for anything you might need. Great follow-up and really nice parts (granted some were used but good used parts).

On another note - I had a HORRIBLE first exp with another vendor on here with lies, customer service was BS and parts didn't even come in as ordered. They can go fly a kite and keep their current customer base because not one thing did they follow through what they said they would do.