Dusk2600

Thank you for that Jason E. He is 100% right. A time will come when the beaters are gone an only the "strong" will live just as someone stated earlier in here. That is when the Value will go up.

I have been working on my car since i bought it. You learn early that YOU get what you pay for. Buying junk to put in ur car will make it junk.

I have been restoring mine to as close as i can to factory origional. This means undoing a lot of BullS^i% "repairs" made by previous owners. I respect my car and the 3rd gen in general. a lot of growing up has to be done by a lot of 3rd gen owners, a lot of nice cars are ruined by this "kiddie Sh&t" they put on/in them

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Jason, you know I with you 100%. But if we all give up, this site will be exclusively about "duel" exhuasts, $50 paint jobs, and hacksaw engineering. Soon after, 3rd gens would be as common as Chevy Citations.

JT

iTrader: (1)

Jason's T/A was very nice in person and, as I've said before, it was a great representation for ThirdGens as Mark's Camaro was as well.

However, I don't think Jason is giving up. Jason, aren't you selling your T/A due to wanting a special 4th gen that you've been eying for years? At Norwood, it was very clear to me that you have great passion for 4th gens by listening to the way you spoke of them. I'm sure that ordering them when new, may also play a role as it has history with you. You appear to have a struggle between 3rd Gens and 4th Gens

I just don't believe the issue here is specific to ThirdGens or even ThirdGen.org. Camaro has been the "poor man's Corvette" with the not so best reputation that dates prior to ThirdGens. Funny to see this article on Jalopnik just a few days ago that mentions the Camaro with this issue:
http://jalopnik.com/5883700/what-aut...es-need-to-die

HI85WH1

I'd disagree to a time when all the beaters are gone umless youre looking at 50 + years....

"Only the strong survive" is more indicative of the owner than the car... I still see a few classic musclecars driven by original owners here... one just recently sold her '69 Chevelle SS396 for $25K... I drolled over this car when I was a kid... but economically the purchase was not right at the time.

The passion to take care of a car correctly versus simply just trading it in is really few and far between. Some of us take pride in bringing a ride back to life... or putting it back to stock.

My low mile B4C has a handful of mods.. some of which I cannot stand. slowly each will be removed (Except the later style SLP exhaust) and the car will be completed to her original glory.

It will be a cruise night car and sunny weekend cruiser and nothing else. Far too valuable to be a DD in a place where one in four people no longer have required automobile insurance.

I'll drive it and enjoy it.. I owned my '84 MCSS for almost 12 years before I let it go.... had I left it closer to stock I would probably still own it.

Jason E

JT,
How did you know about that special purchase? Did I already mention it to you in passing? Indeed, what JT is alluding to is accurate. I need to make room for a little addition...

If I may be allowed to venture off track for a few, in 2003 I bought wholesale for the dealership I worked for a black 2000 SS t-top M6 with a paltry 6,000 miles on it. It had every SLP option available (dual-dual catback, Bilstein suspension, chrome ZR1s, Auburn HD rear end) along with every GM option. I wanted it. Bad. Too bad a tech at the dealership bought it before I could make it work. 5 years later, he called me, wanting to sell it. I had just bought a house and gotten married...we had no money. My dad agreed to buy it. I tried to buy it later on...twice. The first time was a couple days before I bought my blue TA. The second time was right after I sold my '91. He didn't want to part with it...hence the 2 TA purchases. Last August, as the blue TA was in the body shop getting ready for Norwood, guess what? My dad calls me and says he's ready to sell! Gee, Dad, great timing...this time, I was the one that told him to forget it, as I wanted time to enjoy my new creation

Over the winter, I've decided I feel the need for speed, and my dad and I have finally gotten on the same page. The SS is leaving rented storage on 3/31, and is coming home with me. Wifey's GTP will sit outside for some time while a TA waits to find a new home. With 9,600 miles on it, needless to say the SS is as flawless as they come. And indeed, JT is correct...I do have a soft spot for 4th gens. I love to LOOK at third gens, but when it comes to all out, four-wheel-drifting *****-out driving, my Z28 has plastered a smile on my face for the past 11 years. There's a reason its the car I've owned the longest. Along with my IROC, I wil die owning this SS. Its perfect.

For the record, I am not giving up on third gens. I am a car enthusiast of the highest degree, and my favorite car platform ever is third gens. It started with the way they look, and it ends with the way they go down the road. It amazes me that such a simple, ancient platform is still so exciting to drive today. My IROC will be with me until I'm dead...period. There is not a car in the world I could want more than that exact car, and I cannot express how lucky I feel to actually have it.

But, something has to give with the purchase of the SS, so on 3/1 I may put both TAs will go up for sale. I may let the free market decide which one goes, because I cannot decide myself. The 88 is without question the better car...TPI M5, WS6, t-tops versus peanut cam TPI A4, base suspension and a hardtop. However, I can get more money for the 88, and the 86 has the sentimental value attached to it, and has the most beautiful $3,200 paint job I have ever seen. Its essentially flawless on the outside. Plus, I love the color. At the same time, the 88 is more collectible and more fun to drive.

I cannot decide which to sell, but at the moment I am leaning towards the 86 leaving. I think the 88 has the making of a mild-style street machine. The SS comes with a spare SLP dual-dual exhaust I might slide on it, and I'm eyeing a Hawks LT1-style Ram Air hood, to which I would add the functional airbox. Add some repro red-accented Firehawk wheels, throw in my spare 3.73 L69 10 bolt I have in the garage, and maybe a Crane 2030 cam? Now my heart is racing a little, and I think the mods accent a nice original car.

At the same point, tearing into a 27k mile original seems sacreligious Yeah, I definitely ain't going anywhere. I have too much to prove to the cruise night guys, and I wanna surprise some on the street, too...

Jason E

By the way, to whomever modified my byline under my username, thank you That brought a big smile to my face!

cmcz450

Well I just went and looked at an 87 Iroc z-28 t-tops 350. the car needed a fuel pump, headliner, speedometer(I suspect it needs a whole new cluster), rear speakers, Carpet needs a good cleaning, and the clearcoat is peeling so new paint(Red). I had him show me that it turns over so that was good, also it has one quarter size spot of some rust. After talking with him, it seems he's taken care of it and it hasn't been sitting in a field or anything, but it has sat for a year or two other than moving in the driveway. body is straight no rock chips or dings other than the right door which was really hard to notice. 140k miles <<<<<<<Worth saving??? if so what would you offer by what was given?? (general basic numbers, I know you can't do a good estimate without pictures)

lt1zr28

Asking price would be a good start.$500 great price.$10,000 no.We need more info but in the end it comes down to what your willing to pay.Worth saving probably so. IMO

cmcz450

Ah that's an important piece of info. 1000 is what he is asking. I think he needs to come down a little, but what do I know? Lol

jtsk

iTrader: (3)

I think you approach each car with an eye to save it IF it meets certain criteria. Do your research and know what you are looking at first and what you want to do with it and how much you want to spend knowing if you get a 50% pay back, you are doing good. Common sense should be applied.

Richboll

If you decide to get it, please post some pictures and info. If you decide to let it go, please post some pictures and contact information so that someone else can save this one. It sounds like a keeper.

cmcz450

Rich, If I don't buy I'll post the CL list when he reposts it, but I made the mistake of sitting in it and now I can't sleep without thinking about it. After driving home I passed two third gen's in my area and thats bizarre for my area. I think it's a sign :0
I am calling a guy I know that works at a dealer and see if he will run the VIN and get a report for me. Eric(the owner) seems really straight forward about it all.

cmcz450

O yeah, it is a Norwood car as well.

IROCZTWENTYGR8

iTrader: (1)

If you don't mind, where exacly did you send the steering wheel to get re-wrapped? Did they do a good job, was it like the factory leather wrapping? I have a spare that I'd like to do and it would be good for us to know here in general. This goes a long way in maintaining the original interior look. One of the most awful things to me is when you see a nice car and then look inside to see some the horrid 70s/80s store bought wrapping or something on a once nice steering wheel.

Jason E

Chuck Pelton out of MI did it...I can get their contact info from my files for you. Charlie recommended him. The leather is CLOSE to original for a Firebird, but not exact. The 3 spoke leather Pontiac wheels used from 84-87 have one type of leather from 9-3, with a different rougher texture on the bottom part of the wheel and spokes. They could only duplicate the top part. The color was flawless though, and for $200??? The workmanship was phenomenal.

If you're considering doing your IROC wheel, I recommend them. Mine is just slightly worn from 11-1 or so, and I love the glove soft Camaro leather even though it wears so quickly. I doubt they can match it perfectly, but to be honest, I didn't ask them, either. I agree that anything less than OEM style looks like crap.

IROCZTWENTYGR8

iTrader: (1)

Sure, post the info! If someone is out there redoing our wheels nicely we should know!

eseibel67

I contacted Pelton to get a GTA wheel (with radio controls) recovered, and they said it could not be done because the leather covers the rim AND the hub. Then I contacted Dallas Steering Wheel, and they said they could do it, but I have not done it yet. I realize this is off topic, but if anyone has had one of those GTA wheels recovered successfuly, please advise.

Linson

i dream of a day when we can get 17x9 Formula wheels.

Jonboy2312

IMHO every single one of these deserves to be saved.

Let me use my little video to illustrate:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dqw4DbrMajU

It ticks me off to no end when I see DOZENS of ads of camaros and firebirds sold "for parts only". Cars that seem in very nice condition, too.

And it equally ticks me off when people sacrifice another good car to fix up their primary. Then they send the rest to the crusher.

Seriously, sometimes it seems to me most so-called "thirdgen enthusiasts" would have stripped mine of some useable parts and condemned the rest, if they found it in the same condition I did :/

DD9TransAmGTA

iTrader: (1)

I think if some beaters are parted out to use for parts it fine, but its when people part out decent cars. I really hate seeing fixable thirdgens go to cash for clunkers. I was watching Gearz and Stacey David was standing in front of a pile of crushed cars because of cash for clunkers and said " This is our automotive future".

Ghostfac3

My wife tells me no when i stop and see a third gen for sale. get rid of the ones you have and then she tells me im cheating on my camaro when i look or buy another one. but i have been cut off from buying them. its sad really

lt1zr28

My ex-wife told me I cared more about my Camaro's than her.Still got a Camaro.

Starbug

I think most every third gen deserves to be saved. Here's why...

Not everybody has $2k-8k to spend on buying a gently used or "like new" condition gem. Some people are high school kids working at the local fast food joint for min. wage (not every kid wants a Honda), some people are in college working part time in their spare time between classes and homework to fund their classes, pay for their DD, food, and rent. Some people are long out of the educational systems, and simply don't make much more than min. wage. Not everybody has a nice high paying desk job and can afford to drive a BMW (and pay $8k for a "like new" 3rd gen); a whole lot of people make closer to min. wage. Somebody has to pick up your garbage, sweep your streets, turn on the gas pump so you can fill your BMW, mow your yard, make your food & serve it to you because you didn't feel like cooking at home, etc. (I'm not hating on BMW's, it's just a common expensive car for the more affluent people in my area, and so used as a general example of "people with money".)

So for all these people that make min. wage, you have to leave the "less desirable" third gens and not send them to the crusher. People buy a $500 car knowing that it needs a lot of work and may very well cost more, or at least as much, as having bought that $4k car outright. For many people, it's easier on the bank account to slowly piece a car together over a period of time, as their finances allow it. So a nearly rusted out car with a good interior, sold for $200, is a good donor car for a $500 car that had a straight body but F'd up nasty & broken interior. Or the $500 car with a good motor but T-boned body (no longer safe to drive), is a good donor for the good body but missing a motor $400 car. There are so many combinations of cheap cars for the limited budget people. Some people are willing to patch up rust, no matter how little or how much. If you don't like rust, move along, and let somebody else who knows how to weld and is willing to patch it up buy that car. Many classic '50s cars and 1st gen muscle cars start off as "less desirable" rusted-out hunks of junk before you see them winning First Place in a car show somewhere or going for $90k+ at Barrett Jackson auctions. What if that car had been crushed instead? What a loss that would have been.

Until aftermarket places start producing all the replacement metal body pieces and brand new interior panels like you can get for 1st and 2nd gen F-bodies, GTO, Mustangs, etc, then all the "less desirable" third gens are all we have to work with if our cars aren't in "like new" condition. Don't crush them, save them! Sell it for cheap if it's not worth your time/effort to deal with. By destroying all the "less desirable" cars, you deny the more financially limited people the joy of owning a third gen, because as my opening statement said: not everybody has $2k-8k to blow on a gently used or "like new" gem. For those of you that do, that's excellent because those shouldn't end up rotting away in a driveway somewhere either (buy, drive, and love them!).


...and for the love of god, DON'T crush a perfectly good car just because you got tired of it! And DON'T part out said-car and then crush the remaining body, either! I've seen these happen with a lot of cars (not just F-bodies). Sell the car whole to somebody who will appreciate it, or part it out and sell the shell cheap, because somewhere out there is a car that got T-boned and needs a new shell to transfer the still-good parts into. They don't make our cars anymore, so eventually what we have will all be gone. Your grand kids may never have the chance to own a third gen if people are stupidly crushing perfectly good cars for no reason. Present and future value/worth are irrelevant, availability of whole cars and parts is everything if you want these/your car(s) to still be around in another 20+ years. Even your "like new" gem may end up needing a body panel off a "less desirable" car because you got into an accident. So if no "less desirable" cars are left because we crushed them all, where are you going to get a new body panel for your now-wrecked gem? Better hope that the aftermarket has finally started to make body parts.... otherwise, there's a Honda for sale on Craigslist with your name on it. Or take a welding class so you can learn how to make your own panel, and then spend the money on equipment to do it. Or find a reputable shop and pay a lot of money for them to custom fab something for you (I hope it fits and looks like factory).

Reasonable grounds for crushing a car: being T-boned or badly wrecked in some way that makes the car a serious safety hazard.

My two cents.

(If you like BMW's or Hondas, are affluent or poor, have a beater or a gem, paid $100 or $10k for your car, etc, no offense was meant in the above paragraphs. I'm just pointing out that some people's realities are different than yours or mine.)

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Can't say that I've personally run across any "like new gems" for $2K.........

cIaRmOaCrZo

nicely said starbug. i tried to get almost the same point across but mods deleted due to language and how hardcore my point pushed thier buttons. but yeah too many idiots keep on crushing them, and most unfortunately "most" of the idiots are right here on this forum

scottmoyer

I didn't read the novel above in it's entirety, but I will say this again....It's cheaper to spend more up front and get a better starting point than to start with crap and repair it. I had car payments when making only $3.50/hour. I know first hand it can be done. I was making car payments, paying insurance, etc just like everybody else, but I didn't have a cell phone bill, didn't waste money on video games or Starbucks and yes, I did live at home. I had these while I was a Jr/Sr at high school. I bought a brand new Dodge Daytona ES is 1991 while making $8.55/hour and had my own apartment. I never got fired for being late because the car broke down or missing the work day entirely because of a breakdown. People need to prioritize their needs vs. their wants.

A $10k car payment over 3 years will cost about $300/month. Do you plan on spending about $300/month on repairs? How will you save the money you need to get that rust bucket painted or the floor pans replaced if you can't make a payment? A decent paint job is $2k. That's 7 months of payments!!!

Richboll

Really? That's what you got out of Starbug's assertion?

I agree 100% with what Starbug has so eloquently stated. The time to start saving these cars is now. Back in the day I raced circle track and the 67-69 Camaros were the body to have in most Sportsman classes. We could buy running 1st Gens for $50-500. Sometimes we got them free out of a farm field or from behind a barn. Other than the specialty models, they were just transportation then. And look at them now. These days I frequently go to local car shows and see a row or two of 67-69s but maybe see 1 or 2 3rd Gens on display. On a daily basis it's almost an event to see another 3rd Gen traveling down the road. Let's not worry about the future value of our cars, let's worry about still having them around to enjoy. We need to save what we can when we can and we need to do it now.

DD9TransAmGTA

iTrader: (1)

Most of the time when the car is parted out and all that is left is a shell gets crushed because it was junk to start with. If the floors are rusty/rotted or the quarters are beat up and rusty you can't just transfer perfect parts onto it. Especially if it has no title its not worth saving it. We got to have parts for our cars and the junkier ones will be getting parted out to save more cars.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Nope. Just what I decided to comment on........

Richboll

OK. I get that. And after going through the entire thread I've seen where you have weighed in on the subject. Thanks.

That said, I think that we can argue both sides of this fence but the bottom line is that people are going to do what they feel they need to do. Some just don't care and will part them for the money, others will collect them just to have them, yet others will try to fix-up what they have, and the rest will preserve what they can. This thread can and probably will go on for some time but I think everything that can be said, pro or con, has been said.

cIaRmOaCrZo

the only thing i can find humor or personal joy in people parting them out like its a job, is when the day farther down the road comes when they suddenly have an "itch" to have one again, or saw an awsome one going down the road (not having seen one in a long long time) and then just have that feeling of shame or regret just shower over them because they have had ones in the past that they "killed". and now they will have to pay an arm and a leg not just for a nice one, but ANY thirdgen. thats when i smile and laugh because i have a ton of them

Starbug

You have a ton of them? Oh sweet awesomeness!! Let the hording begin!! LOL, I hope you have even more of them in 10 years.

This reminds me of what is happening with the '83-'88 Toyota Tercel 4WD Wagons (the only years they made them). They are phenomenal 4wd vehicles, on par with Subarus. I have one, and am a member of a worldwide club of them, like TGO.

Anyway, there are no aftermarket parts made for these cars, and precious few replacement parts. You can't rebuild your trans when it breaks since nobody makes rebuild kits anymore, you have to try to find a used one in a junk yard and hope it's in better shape than yours, with no idea how much longer that one will last. Trans swaps aren't an option, only another '83-'88 wagon trans will work. I'm having a hard time finding new weatherstrips for my doors. Other parts are the same way. The supply of available whole runners and parts cars is vastly dwindling. All the Tercel wagons are quickly dieing from rust in areas that salt the roads, crashes from accidents, general neglect/beatings, and simply age. Many owners on the club forum have begun hording them and collecting as many drivers and parts cars as possible. The end is near for us wagon owners, and it sadly won't be long before we can't find any more. They rarely show up on Craigslist, and they go for a mint in bad condition, even more if in good shape. They sell on Craigslist within only an hour or two of you posting your ad. Why? Because they get 30+mpg, are 4wd, and have old school Toyota reliability/durability. Without traction control systems, they never get stuck (I watched a 4wd Acadia get stuck on a snowy hill; I just drove right up with no problems). They run forever, and are simple to work on. How many new 4wd cars can say they have all the same qualities of these old Toyotas? None.

Richboll is correct, third gen owners will all do what they feel they need to do with them, and that's their right. Crush, save, part out, restore, beat, worship, hate, etc. But sometime in the future, third gen owners will all find themselves in the same boat that Tercel 4wd Wagon owners are right now.... and it's not a fun place to be. It's frustrating when you are trying to keep something that you love going, but have to struggle to find the parts you need. This is why I worry about what people are doing with their F-bodies, because I'm already there with one of my other cars, and it's the same age as the third gens!

eseibel67

2 million 3rd gens made. It will be a while before the used parts supply is exhausted.

mantaguy

iTrader: (5)

Not really, Obama's, Cash For Clunkers,may have taken about 25-30% of them.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

I remember seeing a breakdown of all the Cash For Clunker vehicles. It killed afew thousand 3rd gens.

mantaguy

iTrader: (5)

A few thousand of what was left,they only made 841,000 third gen firebirds.

Coupe Guy

I remember a time when you could pick up a twenty year old first gen for $2000.-$3500. in the local auto traders. Many were abused by their previous owners. It wasn't until much later that people started buying them and returning them back as they came (restored). Not all were saved, 3rd gens will have to go through the same process of time before they get what they deserve by people that care about them.
The Mustang crowd has the MCA which promotes them heavily which also helps with the perception that everyone can afford to do a concours thoroughbred restoration. I've seen many rattle canned mustangs in my day as well.
One should see the level of detail one puts towards a thoroughbred restoration. I have noticed that GM and the aftermarket for 2nd and 3rd gens are slow at producing quality reproduction parts for our cars. It took me weeks to find plug wires that were as close to OEM for my 88 Sport coupe. They are made by Packard and only the font was slightly changed from the originals.

florida_gators

iTrader: (2)

I used to think so, but at the junk yard today in Orlando I saw what used to be a very nice black '84 TA (one of my favorite years) that had been cheaply converted into a Batmobile...yes, a Batmobile. Every piece was trashed since cheap plastic pieces (like a fake cell phone) were glued all over the dash and the body panels had all been cut up to allow the foam inserts to be cemented onto it. Now, I don't mind a nice professional looking conversion to a Knight Rider car, but seeing this car trashed in this manner made my stomach turn. This car needs to be euthanized before it suffers any more...

lt1zr28

Im thinking that 10 years from now the more original our cars are.No rust and original body panels with no repairs.The more they will be sought after.Some are doing major mods to their cars which is fine.But why is someone going to give top dollar for one of those at that time just because it has an LT1-LS1 or what have you and something other than the stock trans and suspenion.Just to ****** it out and put in the latest and greatest.So when you find one think about it.Before you part it out.

zombienerd

I'm reading this thread and thinking of the other automotive love of my life, the 75-80 Chevy Monza. In pretty much the same boat, but a little worse off now. They made over 4 million of those during the 5 year run. Nowadays, the aftermarket is abysmal, finding a decent "like new" example is like winning the lottery. If you need parts, you better hope you know someone with a similar parts car.

I'm not saying that people should be hoarding these cars to save for the future, but it's a shame to crush them, in any condition. There will be someone, someday, that needs that 4 inch piece of sheet metal that is still intact on that rolled over Iron Duke 82 Firebird.

I hate seeing cars crushed, even in the worst shape possible. I know many cars are too far gone to be restored, but you have to keep them around for parts if possible.

cIaRmOaCrZo

its a shame but sad to say, i may have to eat some of my words.....because i just bought a fully loaded 87 iroc that happen to be swiss cheese. the more i look at the damn thing, the more buyers remorse sets in. i bought it with a knocking l98 with intentions of throwing the corvette l98 i have sittin in another iroc parts car. well i think the parts car is gonna live on because this new one needs put out of its missery. and i almost dont wanna be the one who has to do it.

cIaRmOaCrZo

oh and it happens to have the super rare bose sterio system if anyones interested in buying. its the rear trunk door with the speakers in it, and the front kick panels with speakers in it

IMissMy86TA

This is a great thread.
sorry I cant contribute much. I always see the rust bucket 3rd gens on the road but last fall I saw someone in my neighborhood had what looked like a 91 Z28 convert.... black and very BA looking. I thought maybe I made him think with mine driving by and he bought it now while nice ones can still be had.

kmcn47

i'd love to save them all, mainly because if there still plentiful they'll be cheap and i dont know about you guys but i want at least 5-6 third gens so I'll have one for everyday and i'll have a wide array of them too, an 84 z that i already have an 89 bird to recreate my first, a firehawk replica a newer rs to experiment with (engine swaps) a 88 iroc (make it a roadracer/autocrosser but stock looking and nice, and who doesn't want a bright yellow iroc with all the options? variety is good which is why i want to have alot of them to choose from in the future, and you cant have that without having alot left, i wouldn't want the standard to be all red or black irocs/z28s that'd be so boring lol

Arctic White 91 RS

When my wife totaled our 91 RS in 2001, everyone said the car wasn't worth saving. The car had 229,xxx miles on it. I decided to have my RS repaired anyway. The car is still my daily driver when the weather is nice and has 363,000 miles on it's orginal driveline. No rebuilds or overhauls. I still make 1,300 mile road trips with the car and get 30+ mpg on the interstate. This RS was well worth saving.

If the car is special to you and it's with in reason, it's worth saving.

lt1zr28

With that many miles if it had to retire its more than done its job.How about a pic or two

patricklav

iTrader: (7)

363k miles? That may be a record for a 3rd gen.

cw3adkins

Carlos, where did you get the coolant overflow can?