cmk-2

iTrader: (1)

Hello all,
I have owned a number of new and used 3rd gen camaros start ing with brand new 1984 Z-28 5.0 H.O. then ordered a 1987 Iroc-z 5.7 waited what seemed for ever for it to be delivered to the Chevy dealership back in 1987 (Preston Hood Chevy). Looked at a few brand new Trans Am's on the dealerships floors but there were just not that many to look at or test drive campared to the Camaros. Looking back does anyone think that GM may have been playing with Pontiac to purposely limit the sales of Trans Am? A couple of things that may do it. First, no T-Tops with the 5.7 except for 1989. Next when Chevy/ASC came out in 1987 with the convertible it went to the IROC not both. Why not both? These items were a deal breaker with me, as mine must have T-Tops but would have thought about a Trans Am convertible with the LB9 and 5 speed in 1987 or 1988. Now I realise that Pontiac did have the very limitied run of the 1989 TTA but that's small potatoes in the overall numbers. Next question is why would GM shoot themselfs in the foot and limit any sales? Where they worried about GTA getting into Corvette sales?
What do you think?

DynoDave43

iTrader: (11)

Lots of ground to cover with this one.

Did GM limit Firebird production Vs. Camaro? I don't think so.

Did the federal govt. via the tool of CAFE cause GM to limit F-body performance? Quite likely.

Did GM limit F-body performance to protect the Vette? Almost certainly.

Why would GM shoot itself in the foot? Auto industry watchers have been asking that question for 50+ years. GM went out of it's way to screw Pontiac over countless times. That the brand did as well as it did, for as long as it did, is a credit to those who worked for the brand with great passion, not due to any corporate guidance or help.

modracer

Part of it may be due to the Pontiac selling dealers too in what they ordered as back then they seemed more luxury orientated since they were also selling Buicks and GMC from the same lots where many of the Chevy dealers were more performance orientated.

I worked at a Chevy dealer in the mid to late 80's and we were twice the size of our local GMC, Pontiac and Buick dealer combined.

mikeceli

iTrader: (2)

In the late 70's the Trans Am outsold all the other Pontiac models. I read that GM management ,while happy with TA sales, was concerned because their "Pony" car was not supposed to outsell sedans and intermediate cars.

LAFireboyd

iTrader: (3)

My feeling is that the GTA was purely a marketing gimmick, created just because the Z28 had is upscaled IROC, thereby minimizing the once-legendary status of the Trans Am name, when the Trans Am should've simply been marketed as having upgraded performance.

Trans Am is the name people knew and remember. Whenever anyone sees a GTA (or TTA, TA, Formula or Firebird), what do they ask? "Is that a Trans Am?" 'No, it's a GTA.' "A what?"

JT

iTrader: (1)

I somewhat disagree. There is a reason why so many put GTA badges on Trans Ams and attempted to sell them as GTAs. GTA became a buzzword, like 1LE, when it came to listings. There's also a reason why there are some articles that help readers to verify a GTA based on the differences.

DynoDave43

iTrader: (11)

Very true. In the GM hierarchy, a Pontiac is the more expensive vehicle compared to a Chevrolet. High transaction prices may mean lower volumes, but also higher margins / profits.

JT

iTrader: (1)

The Firebird vs. Camaro doesn't quite add up when you consider that the 1991 and 1992 Formula was the only F-Body you could get in 1991 and 1992 with the L98 and CC1 from the factory, which required the PW7 wheels. The last item gives some suggestion that weight was a factor. The PW7 wheels were the lightweight wheels, plus the Formula was less weight than the Trans Am/GTA. You couldn't get a L98 in the base Firebird, so that was out of the picture.

1965gp

Ive collected, restored and researched Pontiacs most of my life. We’ve built a pretty extensive collection over the past 30 years or so. You are absolutely right that there has been some ‘protection’ for Chevrolet and their flagship cars.

In the late 50’s Bunkie Knudsen took over and took Pontiac from being an old man’s car to an aggressive young man’s ride. Fuel injection, Tri-powers, dual quads, aluminum body panels and bumpers…. Even Swiss cheese frames. Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday- and they won a lot. He brought John Delorean with him who took Pontiac even further. Hell, in 1965 the entire Pontiac line won car of the year. The GTO and possibly even more so the marketing of the GTO changed the industry.

By 1968 Pontiac was one of the big three- meaning the third biggest manufacturer. That was huge news- for a division of GM to outsell all other National brands. Pontiac pushed the envelope and did it without involving the other brands. This was a threat to Chevrolet. Pontiac was going to play a support role and that was that.

it wasn’t until Bob Lutz brought over the Holden as the GTO (and ultimately the G8) and they developed the Solstice/Sky that Pontiac was really able to be their own brand. Unfortunately that was short lived….

ksr

Pontiac was sometimes held back by Chevrolet to protect the Corvette. No doubt about that (so was the Camaro).

I don't think there were any limits on Firebird 3rd gen production. In the 1982-92 timeframe, Pontiac was still a very strong brand. It was still dwarfed by Chevy, but it was strong enough by itself that GM wouldn't have constrained production. Prices being generally lower, you might have seen more inventory of Camaros, which always outsold Firebirds by good margins.

It can also depend on what dealership you went to. I had to shop around to find one when I bought my first in 1990. And I helped a friend out when he was buying his new '86 Trans Am. I don't know how it works, but dealers have certain allocations of models, and if they exceed that, you might not see any more inventory there and may face a long delay even if you ordered it. It always seemed like an odd system to me and I still don't really understand it. I had the same issue with allocation when i ordered my 4th gen T/A in 1998. My dealer had sold its allocation and I had a significant wait to get mine. This despite the fact that 4th gen sales were already tending hard downward. At that point, considering falling sales, I really wonder if GM wasn't trying to eliminate f-bodies and the plant in Ontario that was then building them (you'll find Canadian auto workers who will agree with this). Why else would my dealer have had trouble stocking a model that, supposedly, few people wanted?

GTA, like a lot of names, was a marketing thing. It just represented a somewhat higher level of standard equipment.

LeonardS

FYI, The 4th Gens were built in Ste. Therese Quebec, not Ontario.

ksr

Ah, my bad. Thanks.

When they closed that plant, I remember hearing CAW workers saying that GM didn't support the Camaro and Firebird because they really wanted to shut down that plant. Low sales justified the shutdown. My experience ordering my 4th gen Trans Am makes me wonder. Even in 1998 with the refresh, sales numbers weren't good. Yet it took close to 3 months to get my "low-demand" car.

LeonardS

When Ste. Therese closed, there was also an agreement with CAW that when/if the Camaro came back, it would be built in Canada. That’s why the Gen 5 was built in Ontario.

John in RI

iTrader: (167)

While I have no badging on my 88 ( or ground FX right now for that matter ),......... I STILL get this all the time !! People give a head-nod & say " Cool Trans Am ! " I reply, "Ya' - Kinda' -----> It's actually a GTA." They reply "A GTA,.......?? Looks like a Trans AM". It happens ALL THE TIME !!

cmk-2

iTrader: (1)

Thank you for the replies. I find it interesting that when someone in 1987 ordered the IROC opition for the Z-28 you would receive the upgraded suspension, 16 inch wheels,wonderbar,Bilstien rear shocks all things you could not have separately and you could only get the 5.7 TPI in the IROC. With the Trans Am ,IF i'm correct you could order all the suspension upgrades (WS6) and the 5.7 TPI and in some cases even ordering the lower ground effects in body color with the Trans Am while not going the GTA route. The GTA gave you emblems inside and out, no side vent behind the front wheel, different inner door panels and a solid body color. Am I missing something with the GTA opition? I'm straying from my orignal question sorry.

DynoDave43

iTrader: (11)

That's funny, but I often get people thinking my T/A is a GTA because it has the PW7 wheels, which casual observers seem to associate with the GTA only.

1983LU5TA

That has driven me up a wall for 30+ years. I had a set of black PW7 on my black/silver 84 MSE for a while (the original N24s were gone), and MANY people called the car a GTA 🙄

ksr

I never bother telling someone that I drive a GTA. If they call it a Firebird or a Trans Am (most common), I'm fine with that. They're all correct anyway. I don't expect a lot of non-fans to be familiar with 30+ year old Pontiac trim levels.

On this forum, I refer to my car as a GTA, since this audience knows what that is. In conversation, I'll typically call it a Firebird or a Trans Am. I probably say "Firebird" more than anything else, just because I've always liked that name.

dmccain

iTrader: (2)

Even my car gets called a GTA all the time I guess because of the wheels ...even though Gta,s had the gold ones.. .Its actually a Formula but since it looks nothing like a Formula at this point I refer to it as a Firebird.

86blackiroc

iTrader: (12)

I'll buy into this theory. My local Chevy dealer usually only had 2 or 3 Camaros in stock in the '97-ish-'02 time frame. The Pontiac dealer across the street had even less Firebirds/TAs in stock. Not a one of them sat on the lot very long at all. They seemed to sell like hotcakes.