formula forever

i just thought i share this with you. Did you know that before third gens came out GM wanted to make the third gen camaro and firebird FF drive. im glad they did not because i think i would not be the owner of my formula. i would be pissed off. good thing its not FF drive. i wounder who thought of that idea.

Greg99LS1

Like I always say, "Death before Front Wheel Drive!"

billsfirebird

iTrader: (1)

Cam"A"ro not camero. :P

I don't think they would have been as successful if they were fwd. when i think of american muscle i think of rwd and plenty of smokey burnouts....of course that's not entirely possible with my car.

okfoz

The Probe was Fords replacement to the Mustang, but because of so much hate mail Ford delayed the next gen Mustang and made the Probe into a new car. It lasted not much more than 10 years.

Same thing goes for the Dodge Stealth, it too was FWD and it had a very short life.

History dictates that a FWD sports cars similar in size to the Firebird/Camaro/Mustang are not successful in the american market. The Miata, I am not sure if its fwd or rear wd but it seems to have been rather successful.

John

85 T/A WS6

The Grand Prix made the transition with no problems, along with the W-Body brethren.

The release of the GTP in 97 was an awesome addition, now the latest GXP has a V-8.

The GTP remains a very affordable performance platform. Got Boost?

Dens71TA

iTrader: (5)

Are you sure about that? As far as everything I've read the 3rd-gen was always intended to be RWD. The 3rd-gen design dates back to around 1975/76 and was originally indended to go into production around 1979. As we all know, there were design and tooling problems that pushed it back to 1982.

The 4th-gen F-body was originally designed to be FWD and debute around 1988. Its code name was GM-80. Thankfully budget cuts required them to put the project on hold and when they picked it up again it was decided to stay with RWD!

formula forever

i think so. I was at boarders book store and i readed it in a firebird book. I forgot the name of the book put all the information in that book was right on the money. by the way that one ugly 4th gen. im glad it did not turn out like that

crrllmich

New monte carlo = FWD just so you all know.

okfoz

Aaaaannnd.... what's your point ?

The Monte is not a "Pony car", threfore it really does not figure into the equasion, nor the conversation.

Dens,
Where did you get that pic, it looks like something from a Newspaper...

John

Mr. TurboTA

That picture is from one of the car magazines way back in that time period.
It's a spy shot published before the cars came out in production.

George

92Transam

The miata is a RWD and can actualy fit a fox body 5.0 llol ive seen it before just takes alot of custom work

TAdan

I thought of this thread as a 94ish Probe wanted to race me at a light today, lol. I was in the 94 T/A GT. I wouldnt call it a race.

wellington

probes are qwiuk,but agianst 3 times the hp its no contest.


i have toyed with the idea of a fwd firebird.maybe a fwd v8 setup out of aurora or a cadilac.


i think it would make the car front heavy,but all fwd cars are front heavy.


it would be cool if someone tried it.

Derek The Great

not to bash your opinion, i just want to add my own thoughts as well. A front drive camaro or firebird project would be horible... My 4 banger grand am should be relativily light compared to other front drivers but it couldnt take one of those left turns at a traffic light faster than 30 MPH, the tires just start to loose traction, but my bird with its WS6 can take those same turns at 40mph or more so if some one were to make one of these front drive it would only drive straight, and would brake for all corners

3rdgenparts

iTrader: (8)

Call me crazy.But the car in the bottom pic looks like it has N89 Turbo Cast wheels and caps ???

1982TA

iTrader: (1)

The stealth was also available with AWD with all wheel steering on the twin turbo model. The Mitsubishi 3000 GT lasted from 91-99. The stealth only lasted till '96. At 300 horses that's not bad but they are heavy. Properly tuned they can keep up with the LS1 crowd.

I remember seeing in High Performance Pontiac and article about a prototype GTO back in the 80's. Looked almost like a cross between a late model 3rd gen firebird and a fiero. Had front wheel drive but I think they were going to try and market it as a firebird. They just put the GTO name on it to call it something. Pretty interesting to say the least. I think it also had a glass roof and a wrap around rear glass window for zero blind spots.

formula forever

.

wellington

how about a rear engine or mid engine firebird?

something like a fiero drive line witha 350 ?

that would be sweet.

okfoz

the problem with that idea:
1) Mid engine or rear engine cars do not seem to be well recieved here in the US. Ever since the Corvair was found to be "unsafe" it seems that the idea has not stuck. Even the Fiero had a short life, I think in part to the rear/mid engine.

2) Anything that would come close to competing with the corvettes performance is usually shelved. The exception is the Cadillac XLR, but they are asking a lot more money for that car and its really not the same market. Did you ever notice that the Camaro and the Firebird were given a de-tuned version of the corvette engine? Even the GTO is not available with the LS7 or LS6. Its all about Chevrolet, and making sure the vette is the top performer. I am actually surpised that the GN lasted as long as it did, however the GN did not handle as well as the vette.

John

wellington

if i had the money i would be building a mid engine northstar powered firebird.

i bet it would haul *** compared to a front engine car.

mid engines have better handling then front engines,and it would be one of a kind.

but it will probably only be a dream.

formula forever

no no no mid engine car are not that good at turns. rear wheel drive is the best at turns and can hold the ground. north star engine are the hardes engines to get plugs out of. it makes me sick sometimes

87TPI350KID

Your wrong, mid engine cars have better weight distribution. More weighs on the tires that recieve power, thus greater traction.

okfoz

ACtually your BOTH wrong, it has NOTHING to do where the engine is. Granted most Mid Engine cars have abetter balance, but the C5 Corvette was a 50/50 car, that means that half of the weight is on the front and half on the rear. That is the "Ideal" for handeling.

Straight line performance your better off having the weight on the drive wheels like the rail car dragsters.

If the engine is in the front the car will tend to push, and it will feel wht is called "Tight" If you have too much weight in the rear it will want to come around and once the car lets go and starts to spin it will do so AKA "loose."

If you think of cars like an arrow, and you put the weight in the back the arrow will spin around and want to fly backwards. If you have the weight up front it will want to go straight, and if you have a perfectly 50/50 balance then it will twist and turn easily. Wont fly well and it might want to turn corners.

John

MikeDirntRulez

Yes, but they are some of the most unreliable sports cars around. With constant crank walk and the fact that they are tuned to the max from the factory, running a couple more pounds of boost can blow the whole motor apart. None-the-less, there are some ones still running out there, but I would rather have an LS1 which is a bit more reliable, and wont blow up if I run it a little too hard.

And any FWD f-body would be a blasphemy. Luckily somebody smart at GM got past the bean counters and said "wtf were we thinking"? and realized that it was a dumb move and they ultimately would be known for the demise of the f-body.

Atleast the 4-cyl mustangs were still RWD, even during the time they were looked upon as economy cars, they still kept the RWD.

GTA Jim

How do you get "Front Wheel Drive" out of "FF drive" ??

I guess the first F is for front, but what's the second one for ??

1tinindian

92Transam

front engine, front wheel drive = FF

avro206

Never heard FF before.
So then what s RWD car?
FR?

Back to the topic. It is true that the 3rd gen was being considered on a FWD platform. GM debated this for quite some time and could not tell engineers what the layout was/

The 3rd was at some point supposed to come out before 1982---but kept getting pushed back because of the FWD/RWD debate.

1982TA

iTrader: (1)

Yes, the idea of front wheel drive was as early as 1977. It kept getting pushed back because of other projects at the time.

aaron7

iTrader: (7)

I heard that FWD was the idea for the 4th gens... but who knows.

The reason the Stealth was FWD was because it wasn't a Dodge at all, it was the 3000GT (as seen above). Not like they had a RWD Stealth to begin with, so not sure where you were going with that one.

And mid-engine cars are much better at cornering and handing... trust me, I would know

jumpinjoe

um...how are northstars the hardest to get sparkplugs out of?
i assume youre referring to the back bank? all you need is an angled extention for you ratchet and yer good to go. A 2.5 cirrus or a dohc 3.4 lumina is harder than that

jumpinjoe

and yes rwd is FR

aaron7

iTrader: (7)

oh dear gawd YES. My g/f had a Lumina Z34. I couldn't figure out how to get them out!!!

crrllmich

I get bashed for talking about a monte carlo and we end up talking about Luminas and Probes. How nice everyone is

jumpinjoe

awwwww....you know it's just because we love ya and i love RWD because i dont have to take he plenum off just to take out a flusshinger spark plug! although the starter on an iroc with 3 inch exaust sux. (having to move the exaust)

TurboGM1

Like it was said before the original front wheel drive idea was for the 3rd gen in the late 70's and early 80's but was pushed around for money or bad concept ideas around it. GM has tried to protect it's fleet badboy the Vette for years. It's the whole reason the Pontiac Banshee never came out in the 70's it was a Vette ripoff from Pontiac for a cheaper price and more power. So GM thought of turning it's closest competitors, the Camaro and Firebird, into a FWD design. Then it became a bigger concept in the early 90's for the 4th gen. Who remembers the crappy TV movie of Knight Rider 2000? Kit was put into a concept car design of the 4th gen Trans-Am, that was front wheel drive, and this time Pontiac wanted to call that the Banshee. They also toyed with an AWD Camaro and a four wheel steer F-body in the early 90's. Thank *** none of that transpired and the F-body continued as they should, RWD, slid it around the corner sideways, smoke the back tires off and have fun putting the power to the pavement.

crrllmich

I love you too Joe!

DakotaSLT

Actually, it was the 4G63-powered DSM's that had crankwalk issues, in particular the 7-bolt 2nd generation cars, rather than the 6-bolt 1st gens. The 3000GT/Stealth used the Twin-turbo DOHC 3.0L V6 (the same motor with SOHC is found in the third generation Eclipse), and they did not have crankwalk issues. The biggest limits on those vehicles is their weight, tiny factory turbos (though you can still up the boost with no trouble, but running more than 4-5 extra psi requires larger turbos), and the fact you have to pull the engine to do any major mechanical work or maintenance (Timing belt, clutch, etc, etc.). Oh, and the Getrag gearboxes are horribly expensive to rebuild, thankfully they last awhile. The cars actually hold up to abuse pretty well, my buddy bought one as salvage and drove the absolute **** out of it for several years. Nothing better than embarassing an EVO with a chained down hood and a big dent in the front passenger fender.

They're not amazing cars, but they are quite fun. If you're going to criticise them, at least do it for the right reasons.

jumpinjoe

lol Crlllmnch