So Cal member gets “attacked” for planning LS1 swap
11-11-2010, 03:24 PM
#151
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Re: So Cal member gets “attacked” for planning LS1 swap
Why is it that people push swappers into a corner and then freak out wondering why the swappers get all bent out of shape?
It's not like the lsx guys yank their tpi, swap a lsx and then walk around with their nose stuck up to tpi owners. I've got a 3rd gen lsx, and 4th gen with an ls1, and I am currently hunting down a tpi GTA for my girlfriend.
Swapping is the essence of hot rodding, I must have missed the turning point when it became taboo and frowned upon. I don't care if you really did have a ford 428 and stuffed it in a 3rd gen, not my style, but I want pics and vids either way.
Instead a thread gets locked up by purists in the so cal section, and then they chase us into the lsx sub forum to continue bickering about how they "really never said anything against the ls motors". Yet we have several quotes shown above proving otherwise.
Again I'll say, I can see where some one would relate it to "****"/"cult" mentality. Denying some one else the enjoyment of their own vehicle and chastising them for going against the grain.
As for me, I'll enjoy my car regardless of whether or not it's the Honda boys or the "purists" hounding me about my lack of taste or testicular fortitude for doing what I deem fun and interesting with the cars I've got.
It's not like the lsx guys yank their tpi, swap a lsx and then walk around with their nose stuck up to tpi owners. I've got a 3rd gen lsx, and 4th gen with an ls1, and I am currently hunting down a tpi GTA for my girlfriend.
Swapping is the essence of hot rodding, I must have missed the turning point when it became taboo and frowned upon. I don't care if you really did have a ford 428 and stuffed it in a 3rd gen, not my style, but I want pics and vids either way.
Instead a thread gets locked up by purists in the so cal section, and then they chase us into the lsx sub forum to continue bickering about how they "really never said anything against the ls motors". Yet we have several quotes shown above proving otherwise.
Again I'll say, I can see where some one would relate it to "****"/"cult" mentality. Denying some one else the enjoyment of their own vehicle and chastising them for going against the grain.
As for me, I'll enjoy my car regardless of whether or not it's the Honda boys or the "purists" hounding me about my lack of taste or testicular fortitude for doing what I deem fun and interesting with the cars I've got.
Last edited by $750 L98; 11-11-2010 at 03:28 PM.
11-11-2010, 03:42 PM
#153
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Re: So Cal member gets “attacked” for planning LS1 swap
Nope, Not irrational at all. I also Know fast cars. My good freind is one of the best builders in NY, I see 1000+hp cars all day long, LSX, SBC, BBC, BBP, BBF, SBF, and so on. So, yea, I do know my shizz. And yea it is true, That the mentality is the "I got one too" type like i mentioned above. Most people are sheep, and do things for the sake of acceptance. And like i also already said, Alot of these kids wont own there Thirdgen in a few yr's anyway. I just hope they didnt hack up there cars enough, so that when real car guys want to restore them down the road, They are still able too.
O, and i also beleieve there are guys that do a great job of swapping in a LSX into a 3rdGen. But theres also alot that do a REALLY BAD, sloppy job. They just want to get the LSX in. And go out and run there cars. Alot of those are real POS, IMO.. Anyways, yea, I dont discriminate. I love all types of muscle cars, and drivetrains. LSX is great. So is SBC, Skys the limit on a GEN1.
O, and i also beleieve there are guys that do a great job of swapping in a LSX into a 3rdGen. But theres also alot that do a REALLY BAD, sloppy job. They just want to get the LSX in. And go out and run there cars. Alot of those are real POS, IMO.. Anyways, yea, I dont discriminate. I love all types of muscle cars, and drivetrains. LSX is great. So is SBC, Skys the limit on a GEN1.
Also, I think the argument about “sloppy” or “cobbled” LSX swaps can go both ways. I have seen some hacked-up LSX, TPI, Carb and TBI 3rd gens. I have also seen very clean set ups, even TBI.
PS, any of these 1000hp cars competing in the standing mile? I can’t wait for a GM car to compete with the TT Gallardos and Supras!!!!
11-11-2010, 05:21 PM
#154
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Re: So Cal member gets “attacked” for planning LS1 swap
You TPI guys need BOOST to make up the difference with the LSX children.
And to "WhiteDevilTA" A tubro L98 car also goes 10's. Look for the white 91/92 formy in here and GMHT. Pretty much a stock thirdgen with a small turbo and tuning.
Anyway, You guys bikering is really silly. Some of the "LSX" crowd has the Fox body mentality of the mid 90's.. Its the "I have one too" crowd. Most wont own a Thirdgen in a few Yr's from now anyways. The TPI guys in here, are for the most part true Thirdgengen enthusiasts. and keep there cars period correct. I luv my little TPI motor, boost makes up all its shortcomings. Next cars a 4thgen with LSX, And it will stay LSX.
And to "WhiteDevilTA" A tubro L98 car also goes 10's. Look for the white 91/92 formy in here and GMHT. Pretty much a stock thirdgen with a small turbo and tuning.
Anyway, You guys bikering is really silly. Some of the "LSX" crowd has the Fox body mentality of the mid 90's.. Its the "I have one too" crowd. Most wont own a Thirdgen in a few Yr's from now anyways. The TPI guys in here, are for the most part true Thirdgengen enthusiasts. and keep there cars period correct. I luv my little TPI motor, boost makes up all its shortcomings. Next cars a 4thgen with LSX, And it will stay LSX.
Nope, Not irrational at all. I also Know fast cars. My good freind is one of the best builders in NY, I see 1000+hp cars all day long, LSX, SBC, BBC, BBP, BBF, SBF, and so on. So, yea, I do know my shizz. And yea it is true, That the mentality is the "I got one too" type like i mentioned above. Most people are sheep, and do things for the sake of acceptance. And like i also already said, Alot of these kids wont own there Thirdgen in a few yr's anyway. I just hope they didnt hack up there cars enough, so that when real car guys want to restore them down the road, They are still able too.
O, and i also beleieve there are guys that do a great job of swapping in a LSX into a 3rdGen. But theres also alot that do a REALLY BAD, sloppy job. They just want to get the LSX in. And go out and run there cars. Alot of those are real POS, IMO.. Anyways, yea, I dont discriminate. I love all types of muscle cars, and drivetrains. LSX is great. So is SBC, Skys the limit on a GEN1.
O, and i also beleieve there are guys that do a great job of swapping in a LSX into a 3rdGen. But theres also alot that do a REALLY BAD, sloppy job. They just want to get the LSX in. And go out and run there cars. Alot of those are real POS, IMO.. Anyways, yea, I dont discriminate. I love all types of muscle cars, and drivetrains. LSX is great. So is SBC, Skys the limit on a GEN1.
11-11-2010, 05:31 PM
#155
Re: So Cal member gets “attacked” for planning LS1 swap
Why do the LS1 guys insist on comparing a stock TPI to a stock LS1? That's not the arguement here. Of course a stock LS1 is better. LS1's have 18* cylinder heads, higher flowing heads, 1.7 roller rockers, sequential fuel injection, distributor-less ignition, etc. I've never said that LS1's suck and TPI is the way of the future. I've simply said that I prefer to work on TPI engines and that I prefer to see TPI engines in Thirdgen f-bodies. Why does that make me a "cult member" and not you, when you say you prefer LS1 engines and TPI engines suck? Since LS1's start out so much better from the factory, why is it a crime to change the heads, cam, and intake to match or exceed what the LS1 does, before we line them up and race? You're talking apples to apples here, so lets get the two engines to put out the same horsepower first before we go comparing what sucks and what rules. And for the ones who bash a TPI because it needs a 383 or a 406 to make the same power, how come you're building a 6.0L LS2 or 6.2L LS3 instead of using a 5.7L LS1?
As Allen has said, we in SoCal have to follow the emissions rules, unlike the majority of the other states. That means no long tube headers, no removing the cats, and all engine swaps to a different engine family have to go thru the state referee. I've heard enough horror stories on the SoCal and NorCal boards from guys who have swapped in LS1 engines and the referee failed them because they used the TPI air intake snorkel instead of the LS1 one. Even though the TPI one fits perfectly and is identical to the LS1 air intake. So we prefer not to go thru that hassle and modify the existing TPI engines that came in our cars and keep our thirdgens more original. And with the way the liberals are taking over this country, it wont be long before all 50 states have to do emissions testing like California does.
What the owner of the car in question failed to mention, is that he's a 17 year old young man, getting his father's LS1 from his 98 Trans Am. The one that went 11.2 in the quarter mile WITH A TURBO on it, not just heads/cam. Like most 17 year olds, I'm guessing he probably doesnt have money overflowing his pockets, so for you guys to tell him he should just go for the LS1 swap, its cheaper than an upgraded TPI, etc, is false information. Of course the LS1 is going to cost money to install, because you need lots of little parts and fabrication to make it all fit. Any engine install is going to cost time, money, blood, sweat and tears as I mentioned in the original thread in the SoCal forum.
What upsets me the most, is the LS1 crowd DOES have their noses in the air, thinking that only the LS platform is worthy of being hot-rodded, and anyone who builds anything else is wasting their time. We've built several TPI engines that run in the 12 second ET range, get over 20 MPG, and pass California's emissions test. As well as being daily drivers, go on our club cruises, and are reliable and trustworthy. That's our passion, and its what we like to do. Its fast enough to beat the typical cat-back exhaust LS1 f-body, and that's enough for us. For some people to call us a cult for having an opinion is hypocritical.
As Allen has said, we in SoCal have to follow the emissions rules, unlike the majority of the other states. That means no long tube headers, no removing the cats, and all engine swaps to a different engine family have to go thru the state referee. I've heard enough horror stories on the SoCal and NorCal boards from guys who have swapped in LS1 engines and the referee failed them because they used the TPI air intake snorkel instead of the LS1 one. Even though the TPI one fits perfectly and is identical to the LS1 air intake. So we prefer not to go thru that hassle and modify the existing TPI engines that came in our cars and keep our thirdgens more original. And with the way the liberals are taking over this country, it wont be long before all 50 states have to do emissions testing like California does.
What the owner of the car in question failed to mention, is that he's a 17 year old young man, getting his father's LS1 from his 98 Trans Am. The one that went 11.2 in the quarter mile WITH A TURBO on it, not just heads/cam. Like most 17 year olds, I'm guessing he probably doesnt have money overflowing his pockets, so for you guys to tell him he should just go for the LS1 swap, its cheaper than an upgraded TPI, etc, is false information. Of course the LS1 is going to cost money to install, because you need lots of little parts and fabrication to make it all fit. Any engine install is going to cost time, money, blood, sweat and tears as I mentioned in the original thread in the SoCal forum.
What upsets me the most, is the LS1 crowd DOES have their noses in the air, thinking that only the LS platform is worthy of being hot-rodded, and anyone who builds anything else is wasting their time. We've built several TPI engines that run in the 12 second ET range, get over 20 MPG, and pass California's emissions test. As well as being daily drivers, go on our club cruises, and are reliable and trustworthy. That's our passion, and its what we like to do. Its fast enough to beat the typical cat-back exhaust LS1 f-body, and that's enough for us. For some people to call us a cult for having an opinion is hypocritical.
11-11-2010, 05:40 PM
#156
Re: So Cal member gets “attacked” for planning LS1 swap
That thread in the SoCal forum was locked because it turned into a flame war with members calling each other names and using foul language. Before that, it was a heated discussion about whether or not ItsMikey should put an LS1 engine into his car.
11-11-2010, 06:01 PM
#157
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Re: So Cal member gets “attacked” for planning LS1 swap
Most are running 6.0FE blocks, not AL, AL 6.0 blocks are more expensive, and we like the FE blocks for boost, and longevity. If anyone runs a turbo LS1 for a 11.2 I want to see that time slip, either that car is hurt, or they are probably fighting for traction. There are cam only motors that have never been opened running 10's, and turbo guys with junkyard motors and a turbo running 9's (in a heavy gto if I remember correctly). That made about 825rwhp on a stock LQ4 with the turbo.
I also believe part of the argument was that to have a TPI with a similar output to a 400rwhp LS1 with just a cam, the TPI would hardly have the same drivability.
My 383 TPI certainly didn't drive stock. And I've seen no one here with their nose up at the TPI, since, most of us started with one variation or another of it. That motor will always have a place in my heart, but for most, it is just not cost effective to build the TPI to such an extent when a cam only LSx can achieve better with a simple cam swap.
But again, this whole fiasco would have been avoided had Mikey not been harassed through either direct or implied bashing of the LSx swap idea.
I no one still ready to admit that technology advances over time? The man asked for simple help and advice, not to debate the validity of heavily modded TPI motors, or the LSx right to be under a 3rd gen hood.
You want to build the TPI, fine by me, when the day comes I look for another project car, I will likely buy a GTA for myself to turn into a bolt on weekend car. But I certainly have no regrets putting a 6.0 under my 1989 Formula's hood.
Do some despise the TPI like they do a standard SBC? Sure, but I'm sure you and I are educated enough to know that it's just trolls adding flame to the fire. We have a carb'd 3rd gen guy running a little 355 and nitrous doing 7's in the quarter I believe it was.
I respect everyone's will to do what they feel necessary with their cars, so why continue the tireless debate? It has been said by so cal members that non-tpi cars are not welcome to the club, that doesn't sound much like accepting everyone to me, so maybe the tpi guys should stay in the so cal section and the lsx guys should stay here, we can stay segregated and avoid the drama in the future. Now Mikey knows where to look for help.
I also believe part of the argument was that to have a TPI with a similar output to a 400rwhp LS1 with just a cam, the TPI would hardly have the same drivability.
My 383 TPI certainly didn't drive stock. And I've seen no one here with their nose up at the TPI, since, most of us started with one variation or another of it. That motor will always have a place in my heart, but for most, it is just not cost effective to build the TPI to such an extent when a cam only LSx can achieve better with a simple cam swap.
But again, this whole fiasco would have been avoided had Mikey not been harassed through either direct or implied bashing of the LSx swap idea.
I no one still ready to admit that technology advances over time? The man asked for simple help and advice, not to debate the validity of heavily modded TPI motors, or the LSx right to be under a 3rd gen hood.
You want to build the TPI, fine by me, when the day comes I look for another project car, I will likely buy a GTA for myself to turn into a bolt on weekend car. But I certainly have no regrets putting a 6.0 under my 1989 Formula's hood.
Do some despise the TPI like they do a standard SBC? Sure, but I'm sure you and I are educated enough to know that it's just trolls adding flame to the fire. We have a carb'd 3rd gen guy running a little 355 and nitrous doing 7's in the quarter I believe it was.
I respect everyone's will to do what they feel necessary with their cars, so why continue the tireless debate? It has been said by so cal members that non-tpi cars are not welcome to the club, that doesn't sound much like accepting everyone to me, so maybe the tpi guys should stay in the so cal section and the lsx guys should stay here, we can stay segregated and avoid the drama in the future. Now Mikey knows where to look for help.
Last edited by $750 L98; 11-11-2010 at 06:12 PM.
11-11-2010, 06:34 PM
#158
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Re: So Cal member gets “attacked” for planning LS1 swap
i suppose this argument will never end. never. as for noses in the air. both parties have it. badly. and rightfully so in THEIR OWN respects. this tpi verse lsx will never go away. this or that is better. i thought most of us were past this. even though i posted earlier. the lsx platform is one of gm's greatest accomplishments. period.
as for the tpi people-i have built one that ran 11.90's with a 406 sbc. good engine. ran well. street manners were ok. this was in a 91 camaro. and that was with a 3.23 rear end. this engine was replaced with an lsx engine that produced a 11.67 with a lot less money. but that is what we built. we loved it. better street manners and all. so i have had both. as far as keeping it real the tpi was a good lookin engine that ran well. the lsx is better only in our opinion. and runs better in our opinion.
now i have read why lsx people swap heads and cams in lsx swaps. well!!! why do people with tpi swap heads and cams and etc>>>>> because we can and we want to. stock for stock. ok. who cares if it is a ls1, 2, 3, 6, 7, or nine. they put it in there. why change it???? didnt you change yours??? cant we cange engine parts if you do. IT IS OUR CAR!!!!!! WE CAN DO WITH IT WHAT WE WANT. so if we put in a bone stock lsx engine. and you bring your bone stock tpi who will win???? i pick the lsx.
tuning ability?? the lsx will win out. parts availability-lsx will winout. ugly!!!! eye of the beholder will win out. as far as how much performance can be had?? the lsx will win out again. gas mileage. well. i havent seen to many performance built tpi,s get 20 to 28 mpg's. lsx will.
so in all i think it is a mute argument. for the true people it is what they make of it. nostalgic---ok. go for it. if it were a nostalgiconly club then yeah. but it is not.
it is my opinion that the same money spent on both in a race the lsx will win it every time.it will also win the driveability test also. we are talking1997 to now tecnology vs 1980 to 1992 technology.
6 bolt mains standard.
so to me a tpi has its perks that are a smaller number than the lsx. what is any different than sticking a big block in a 55 chevy. we think it is cool. but it didnt come in it. what is any different. the performance ability with a lsx is endless. the tpi will go far but will fall short due to technology. always. period. can it ne made to run well?? YES. can it be fast? YES. will it beat the same money spent lsx on street manners, performance, and available parts to go faster. NO, NO, NO.!!!!!!! NEVER.
so now we have narrowed it down.
1. the people that love the tpi engine that make them go fast and love them.
2. the people that love the lsx engine that make them go fast and love them.
apple to apples. never. the lsx is years ahead of the tpi.
he wanted advice. he was discouraged from doing so by opinions in which all boards welcome since that is what they are for. he brought the thread over here. now we have a 4 page thread going about which is better. WHO CARES!!!
HE WANTS AN LSX IN HIS CAR. you do not want it in yours. so all in all he wasnt givin what he was looking for. so you bring the argument to an LSX FORUM. you are recieving what you get. if you want to talk tpi then go to the tpi section and do it. if you want to talk lsx then this is the place. tpi has no buisness imhop anywhere near an lsx forum.
all in all he hasnt gotten what he asked for.
so let the dead horse beating continue. THIS IS AN LSX PART OF THE FORUM. NOT TPI.
as for the tpi people-i have built one that ran 11.90's with a 406 sbc. good engine. ran well. street manners were ok. this was in a 91 camaro. and that was with a 3.23 rear end. this engine was replaced with an lsx engine that produced a 11.67 with a lot less money. but that is what we built. we loved it. better street manners and all. so i have had both. as far as keeping it real the tpi was a good lookin engine that ran well. the lsx is better only in our opinion. and runs better in our opinion.
now i have read why lsx people swap heads and cams in lsx swaps. well!!! why do people with tpi swap heads and cams and etc>>>>> because we can and we want to. stock for stock. ok. who cares if it is a ls1, 2, 3, 6, 7, or nine. they put it in there. why change it???? didnt you change yours??? cant we cange engine parts if you do. IT IS OUR CAR!!!!!! WE CAN DO WITH IT WHAT WE WANT. so if we put in a bone stock lsx engine. and you bring your bone stock tpi who will win???? i pick the lsx.
tuning ability?? the lsx will win out. parts availability-lsx will winout. ugly!!!! eye of the beholder will win out. as far as how much performance can be had?? the lsx will win out again. gas mileage. well. i havent seen to many performance built tpi,s get 20 to 28 mpg's. lsx will.
so in all i think it is a mute argument. for the true people it is what they make of it. nostalgic---ok. go for it. if it were a nostalgiconly club then yeah. but it is not.
it is my opinion that the same money spent on both in a race the lsx will win it every time.it will also win the driveability test also. we are talking1997 to now tecnology vs 1980 to 1992 technology.
6 bolt mains standard.
so to me a tpi has its perks that are a smaller number than the lsx. what is any different than sticking a big block in a 55 chevy. we think it is cool. but it didnt come in it. what is any different. the performance ability with a lsx is endless. the tpi will go far but will fall short due to technology. always. period. can it ne made to run well?? YES. can it be fast? YES. will it beat the same money spent lsx on street manners, performance, and available parts to go faster. NO, NO, NO.!!!!!!! NEVER.
so now we have narrowed it down.
1. the people that love the tpi engine that make them go fast and love them.
2. the people that love the lsx engine that make them go fast and love them.
apple to apples. never. the lsx is years ahead of the tpi.
he wanted advice. he was discouraged from doing so by opinions in which all boards welcome since that is what they are for. he brought the thread over here. now we have a 4 page thread going about which is better. WHO CARES!!!
HE WANTS AN LSX IN HIS CAR. you do not want it in yours. so all in all he wasnt givin what he was looking for. so you bring the argument to an LSX FORUM. you are recieving what you get. if you want to talk tpi then go to the tpi section and do it. if you want to talk lsx then this is the place. tpi has no buisness imhop anywhere near an lsx forum.
all in all he hasnt gotten what he asked for.
so let the dead horse beating continue. THIS IS AN LSX PART OF THE FORUM. NOT TPI.
Last edited by one92rs; 11-11-2010 at 06:44 PM.
11-11-2010, 09:14 PM
#159
Re: So Cal member gets “attacked” for planning LS1 swap
now i have read why lsx people swap heads and cams in lsx swaps. well!!! why do people with tpi swap heads and cams and etc>>>>> because we can and we want to. stock for stock. ok. who cares if it is a ls1, 2, 3, 6, 7, or nine. they put it in there. why change it???? didnt you change yours??? cant we cange engine parts if you do. IT IS OUR CAR!!!!!! WE CAN DO WITH IT WHAT WE WANT. so if we put in a bone stock lsx engine. and you bring your bone stock tpi who will win???? i pick the lsx.
tuning ability?? the lsx will win out. parts availability-lsx will winout. ugly!!!! eye of the beholder will win out. as far as how much performance can be had?? the lsx will win out again. gas mileage. well. i havent seen to many performance built tpi,s get 20 to 28 mpg's. lsx will.
HE WANTS AN LSX IN HIS CAR. you do not want it in yours. so all in all he wasnt givin what he was looking for. so you bring the argument to an LSX FORUM. you are recieving what you get. if you want to talk tpi then go to the tpi section and do it. if you want to talk lsx then this is the place. tpi has no buisness imhop anywhere near an lsx forum.
all in all he hasnt gotten what he asked for.
so let the dead horse beating continue. THIS IS AN LSX PART OF THE FORUM. NOT TPI.
all in all he hasnt gotten what he asked for.
so let the dead horse beating continue. THIS IS AN LSX PART OF THE FORUM. NOT TPI.
11-11-2010, 09:24 PM
#160
Re: So Cal member gets “attacked” for planning LS1 swap
"THIS IS AN LSX PART OF THE FORUM. NOT TPI."
Tell that to the original poster. When someone uses the terms "cult" and "*****" in describing our club I think we have the right to defend ourselves against such baseless attacks.
Tell that to the original poster. When someone uses the terms "cult" and "*****" in describing our club I think we have the right to defend ourselves against such baseless attacks.
11-11-2010, 09:27 PM
#161
Re: So Cal member gets “attacked” for planning LS1 swap
is that all you want? 12's? jeeze...i did that with my 305 ON MOTOR three years ago...and did it with a 650 double pumper, got 23mpg hwy, and had DD street manners. you need a 406 tpi to do that?
11-11-2010, 09:34 PM
#162
Re: So Cal member gets “attacked” for planning LS1 swap
what about a 57 chevy with a BBC swap? it never came with anything larger than a 283 IIRC since anything larger wasn't available yet...and the BBC wasn't readily available in a swap situation till the mid 70s (kinda like an 80's car that has a 00 engine?)
your logic about not swapping these motors in has all kinds of flaws
11-11-2010, 10:29 PM
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Re: So Cal member gets “attacked” for planning LS1 swap
really...TPI is ARCHAIC! GM DOES NOT EVEN MAKE THEM ANYMORE...if TPI was so great it would be in 5th gens. I'll take my "bastardized" LSx 3rd gen anyday over your "real" TPI 3rd gen. I really think that the TPI fanboys are just jealous because their TPIs can never do half of what a LSx can. hate on that 
11-11-2010, 10:38 PM
#166
Re: So Cal member gets “attacked” for planning LS1 swap
"well then open your eyes friend. all you gotta do is read the threads on the board."
That is a hot one. I am not going to search anything. I know what I have said. The onus is on you to back up your accusations.
I can see members of the LSx crowd have a reading comprehension problem with the continued post stating things that are not true. It's really amazing.
That is a hot one. I am not going to search anything. I know what I have said. The onus is on you to back up your accusations.
I can see members of the LSx crowd have a reading comprehension problem with the continued post stating things that are not true. It's really amazing.
11-12-2010, 12:25 AM
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Re: So Cal member gets “attacked” for planning LS1 swap
So Cal member gets “attacked” for planning LS1 swap
"Attacked"
You guys are the ones that attacked us for suggesting he shouldn't do it.
Now you come over here and spread your falsehoods.
"Attacked"
You guys are the ones that attacked us for suggesting he shouldn't do it.
Now you come over here and spread your falsehoods.
Last edited by Dyno Don; 11-12-2010 at 12:29 AM.
11-12-2010, 12:59 AM
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Transmission: TH700-R4
Axle/Gears: 3.23
Re: So Cal member gets “attacked” for planning LS1 swap
This is just as bad as the Build a quick 6 than swap a heavy 8 deal for all us V6 members.....
11-12-2010, 01:27 AM
#169
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Car: 1986 Pontiac Firebird
Engine: 97 LT1 W/ Alot of goodies.
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Axle/Gears: 3.27 9 Bolt BW
Re: So Cal member gets “attacked” for planning LS1 swap
So I take it people have swapped in L98s into 4th gens. No? Why not? 
I need to go read that thread and see what the fuzz is about so far from reading this thread looks like it will be a good read.
I need to go read that thread and see what the fuzz is about so far from reading this thread looks like it will be a good read.
11-12-2010, 07:03 AM
#170
Supreme Member
Re: So Cal member gets “attacked” for planning LS1 swap
Here’s an email I received from one of our SC3G members in reference to a completely different thread that was going shortly before itsMikeys & Z28Fast1’s threads went viral.
“Hello, thanks for allowing me to be part of your club. I sent an email to the webmaster to take me off the list of members today. After reading some posts on a recent thread about a recent build Don did, Kevin, (I guess his son) made a comment about a no-carb diet thing. Well that did it for me. I can't be part of a group that says everyone with a third gen is welcomed so long as it's fuel injection. My original feelings was to have a good network of fellow third gen's talk about their cars and not be so biased or look down on someone who has a carb'd car. Kind of sucks too.”
Why did I post this? Because I wanted everyone to see that it’s not just the LSX they have a problem with, it’s anything other than TPI.
It took me over an hour to calm this member down and explain that Don and Kevin were no longer affiliated with SC3G (the club they and several others ‘founded’), they have started their own TPI organization (So Cal TPI), and we (SC3G) do not care what is under the hood as it is his car and he can run whatever he wants. This isn’t the first email I’ve received like this and it certainly won’t be the last.
It’s like I said in an earlier post, SC3G is 300+ members strong and growing. So Cal TPI has a little fewer than 40 members most of which are also SC3G members that could also care less about what’s under the hood of anyone’s 3rd gen. So we are talking about 10-15 people that are hardcore TPI purists.
Don’t let 10-15 extremely opinionated people discourage you from doing anything. Having dealt with these boys personally, the best course of action is to ignore them and abandon the thread. They thrive on chaos and drama, don’t give it to them.
“Hello, thanks for allowing me to be part of your club. I sent an email to the webmaster to take me off the list of members today. After reading some posts on a recent thread about a recent build Don did, Kevin, (I guess his son) made a comment about a no-carb diet thing. Well that did it for me. I can't be part of a group that says everyone with a third gen is welcomed so long as it's fuel injection. My original feelings was to have a good network of fellow third gen's talk about their cars and not be so biased or look down on someone who has a carb'd car. Kind of sucks too.”
Why did I post this? Because I wanted everyone to see that it’s not just the LSX they have a problem with, it’s anything other than TPI.
It took me over an hour to calm this member down and explain that Don and Kevin were no longer affiliated with SC3G (the club they and several others ‘founded’), they have started their own TPI organization (So Cal TPI), and we (SC3G) do not care what is under the hood as it is his car and he can run whatever he wants. This isn’t the first email I’ve received like this and it certainly won’t be the last.
It’s like I said in an earlier post, SC3G is 300+ members strong and growing. So Cal TPI has a little fewer than 40 members most of which are also SC3G members that could also care less about what’s under the hood of anyone’s 3rd gen. So we are talking about 10-15 people that are hardcore TPI purists.
Don’t let 10-15 extremely opinionated people discourage you from doing anything. Having dealt with these boys personally, the best course of action is to ignore them and abandon the thread. They thrive on chaos and drama, don’t give it to them.
11-12-2010, 09:43 AM
#171
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Car: '90 Trans Am-12.45@110.71
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Transmission: Tremec T-56
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Re: So Cal member gets “attacked” for planning LS1 swap
More lies and BS from the "king" of BS
Mods take notice this clown's at it again.
Mods take notice this clown's at it again.
Last edited by Dyno Don; 11-12-2010 at 10:14 AM.
11-12-2010, 09:57 AM
#172
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Car: Trans Am, Corvette
Engine: LB9, LT1
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Re: So Cal member gets “attacked” for planning LS1 swap
WOW. Im happy i dont live in Cali. Fruits n Nuts alright..
Here in NY, We have all types of motors that run 12's and FASTER. All kinds, That is. lol
Here in NY, We have all types of motors that run 12's and FASTER. All kinds, That is. lol
11-12-2010, 10:24 AM
#173
Supreme Member
11-12-2010, 10:32 AM
#174
Re: So Cal member gets “attacked” for planning LS1 swap
Watch out Don, last time I called someone that name I got put on probation, in fact it's happened twice. We'll see if anesthes comes here in his infinite wisdom and puts you on probation...
Last edited by 1MeanZ; 11-12-2010 at 10:36 AM.
11-12-2010, 10:57 AM
#175
Re: So Cal member gets “attacked” for planning LS1 swap
..but but but.... they are untouchable you should know that. One builds headers and the other pats himself on the back for a tune on a 406 that really is a POS, the damned thing doesn't idle worth a crap in cold weather and doesn't idle the same twice. The tune is crap. The wiring is crap, the damned thing almost burned down. The headers and Y pipe hang too low, the Y pipe slip collector leaks and the solid roller cam has worn the stock distributor gear to mush. Oh the POS professional products damper was 5 minutes from grenading itself also.
What a hack job!
11-12-2010, 11:26 AM
#177
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Car: 1989 Mystery Firebird
Engine: 350 FIRST TPI
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Re: So Cal member gets “attacked” for planning LS1 swap
like i said before... this arguement is dumb...
few years ago.. it used to be bbc vs sbc, carb vs tpi, 305 vs 350, hsr vs mini ram vs FIRST vs etc., today we all argue about TPI vs LSx
everyone has their info on whats better... but its YOU as the owner of the vehicle to decide weather you want TPI or LS.... it is YOU that will pay for it... we all just give our opinion and you have to man up and decide what is best for what you want the car to do.... and weather or not your able to complete either project you choose to do....
11-12-2010, 11:49 AM
#178
Re: So Cal member gets “attacked” for planning LS1 swap
Why did I post this? Because I wanted everyone to see that it’s not just the LSX they have a problem with, it’s anything other than TPI.
It took me over an hour to calm this member down and explain that Don and Kevin were no longer affiliated with SC3G (the club they and several others ‘founded’), they have started their own TPI organization (So Cal TPI), and we (SC3G) do not care what is under the hood as it is his car and he can run whatever he wants. This isn’t the first email I’ve received like this and it certainly won’t be the last.
It’s like I said in an earlier post, SC3G is 300+ members strong and growing. So Cal TPI has a little fewer than 40 members most of which are also SC3G members that could also care less about what’s under the hood of anyone’s 3rd gen. So we are talking about 10-15 people that are hardcore TPI purists.
Don’t let 10-15 extremely opinionated people discourage you from doing anything. Having dealt with these boys personally, the best course of action is to ignore them and abandon the thread. They thrive on chaos and drama, don’t give it to them.
It took me over an hour to calm this member down and explain that Don and Kevin were no longer affiliated with SC3G (the club they and several others ‘founded’), they have started their own TPI organization (So Cal TPI), and we (SC3G) do not care what is under the hood as it is his car and he can run whatever he wants. This isn’t the first email I’ve received like this and it certainly won’t be the last.
It’s like I said in an earlier post, SC3G is 300+ members strong and growing. So Cal TPI has a little fewer than 40 members most of which are also SC3G members that could also care less about what’s under the hood of anyone’s 3rd gen. So we are talking about 10-15 people that are hardcore TPI purists.
Don’t let 10-15 extremely opinionated people discourage you from doing anything. Having dealt with these boys personally, the best course of action is to ignore them and abandon the thread. They thrive on chaos and drama, don’t give it to them.
Don and I left SC3G to get away from you and your drama queens and smack-talkers who thrive on chaos, belittling other people who dont live up to your high standard of living. Why dont you look in a mirror sometime, Michael? And its nice that you're AGAIN posting personal private information in public for everyone else to see.
300 people, by who's count, the democrats? One-time show ups and one-time posters do not count as members. By the way, SCTPI had 16-18 people show up at its last meetings, same as SC3G. I've never said 40 members and I'm impressed that you think so highly of us.
SCTPI is a group of friendly, fun loving people who enjoy learning about TPI engines, finding out what makes them work, and experimenting with new ideas to make more horsepower and compete with today's LSx, Ford, and Dodge engines. You dont have to have a TPI engine under your hood to be a member, just an interest in TPI and want to learn more about it. You guys are the ones putting words in our mouths saying we hate anything that's not a TPI.
Twin_Turbo, any issues you have with that car you need to take up with the seller. Personal issues came in his life and he was forced to sell the car unfinished.
Tricked-Out-Toy, ask Burnout91. He recently spent the money to build a 400+ HP setup. I treat my car like entertainment, and I dont keep track of the money because I dont put a price on fun. Fun for me is building and tuning TPI engines. I dont consider putting an LS1 engine in my car fun due to the numerous differences between a thirdgen chassis, and an LS1 engine. That's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.
11-12-2010, 11:55 AM
#179
Supreme Member
Re: So Cal member gets “attacked” for planning LS1 swap
We have TPI engines in our cars. We chose to focus on TPI because it is the best engine that came in Thirdgens (Turbo V6 excluded). How is that any different than the LSx crowd who say LSx's are the best and anything else is crap?
Don and I left SC3G to get away from you and your drama queens and smack-talkers who thrive on chaos, belittling other people who dont live up to your high standard of living. Why dont you look in a mirror sometime, Michael? And its nice that you're AGAIN posting personal private information in public for everyone else to see.
300 people, by who's count, the democrats? One-time show ups and one-time posters do not count as members. By the way, SCTPI had 16-18 people show up at its last meetings, same as SC3G. I've never said 40 members and I'm impressed that you think so highly of us.
SCTPI is a group of friendly, fun loving people who enjoy learning about TPI engines, finding out what makes them work, and experimenting with new ideas to make more horsepower and compete with today's LSx, Ford, and Dodge engines. You dont have to have a TPI engine under your hood to be a member, just an interest in TPI and want to learn more about it. You guys are the ones putting words in our mouths saying we hate anything that's not a TPI.
Twin_Turbo, any issues you have with that car you need to take up with the seller. Personal issues came in his life and he was forced to sell the car unfinished.
Tricked-Out-Toy, ask Burnout91. He recently spent the money to build a 400+ HP setup. I treat my car like entertainment, and I dont keep track of the money because I dont put a price on fun. Fun for me is building and tuning TPI engines. I dont consider putting an LS1 engine in my car fun due to the numerous differences between a thirdgen chassis, and an LS1 engine. That's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.
Don and I left SC3G to get away from you and your drama queens and smack-talkers who thrive on chaos, belittling other people who dont live up to your high standard of living. Why dont you look in a mirror sometime, Michael? And its nice that you're AGAIN posting personal private information in public for everyone else to see.
300 people, by who's count, the democrats? One-time show ups and one-time posters do not count as members. By the way, SCTPI had 16-18 people show up at its last meetings, same as SC3G. I've never said 40 members and I'm impressed that you think so highly of us.
SCTPI is a group of friendly, fun loving people who enjoy learning about TPI engines, finding out what makes them work, and experimenting with new ideas to make more horsepower and compete with today's LSx, Ford, and Dodge engines. You dont have to have a TPI engine under your hood to be a member, just an interest in TPI and want to learn more about it. You guys are the ones putting words in our mouths saying we hate anything that's not a TPI.
Twin_Turbo, any issues you have with that car you need to take up with the seller. Personal issues came in his life and he was forced to sell the car unfinished.
Tricked-Out-Toy, ask Burnout91. He recently spent the money to build a 400+ HP setup. I treat my car like entertainment, and I dont keep track of the money because I dont put a price on fun. Fun for me is building and tuning TPI engines. I dont consider putting an LS1 engine in my car fun due to the numerous differences between a thirdgen chassis, and an LS1 engine. That's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.
I know how to get you guys to tip your hand and that all I was looking to do so now that it’s done I’ll leave you to whatever it is you guys are doing in an LSX forum
11-12-2010, 12:36 PM
#180
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: So Cal member gets “attacked” for planning LS1 swap
No, the words I quoted prior are yours. Anyone with a working search button can find them on their own if they so choose. If you've since changed your mind, well then so be it... its changed. I was going to suggest you inform others of this change of tune as well, but I see now you've already done that. I would change the title though, M$ word suggestions of "It looks like you're trying to write a letter" come off rather cold. Maybe... SCTPI/SC3G and other local clubs (or even include their names).
11-12-2010, 12:52 PM
#181
Re: So Cal member gets “attacked” for planning LS1 swap
"Don’t let 10-15 extremely opinionated people discourage you from doing anything. Having dealt with these boys personally, the best course of action is to ignore them and abandon the thread. They thrive on chaos and drama, don’t give it to them. "
I agree with Don. You are so full of BS in this matter as your goal is to expand your club at other people expense with lies. We have also dealt with you personally over the years in person and on the internet. However I do agree with you in that this thread needs to be closed.
I agree with Don. You are so full of BS in this matter as your goal is to expand your club at other people expense with lies. We have also dealt with you personally over the years in person and on the internet. However I do agree with you in that this thread needs to be closed.
11-12-2010, 12:54 PM
#182
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Car: 89 GTA/93 S13/91 Si
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Re: So Cal member gets “attacked” for planning LS1 swap
its funny how people can be so biased, almost to the point where the whole "elitest" factor comes in...
i personally, will say no more on my LSX subject publicly, i know who to go to and this whole thing just needs to be forgotton and anyone with a maturity level above a fifth grader will do so.
so...lock the thread.
be done with it
Mikey
i personally, will say no more on my LSX subject publicly, i know who to go to and this whole thing just needs to be forgotton and anyone with a maturity level above a fifth grader will do so.
so...lock the thread.
be done with it
Mikey
11-12-2010, 12:56 PM
#183
Member
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Car: 1989 Mystery Firebird
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Re: So Cal member gets “attacked” for planning LS1 swap
soooo its all about the he said she said.... really now guys who cares... give your opinions just dont knock the other guy with his choice... ultimately is the persons decision to pick his poison...
11-12-2010, 12:57 PM
#184
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Axle/Gears: 12 Bolt 3.73
Re: So Cal member gets “attacked” for planning LS1 swap
11-12-2010, 01:08 PM
#185
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Re: So Cal member gets “attacked” for planning LS1 swap
You still dont get it. We're not saying stock for stock. We're saying we've modified the TPI intake so it can compete with the LS1 engine. We've changed camshafts, heads, and intakes so the TPI is on a level playing field with the LS1's stock parts. And why put a stock LS1 engine in your car anyway? That's good for 300 RWHP and low 13's at the drag strip. That wont win you very many races if that's your goal. So now you have to spend more money for better LS1 parts. That suddenly makes the swap more expensive.
BTW, TPI TERR swapped in a bone stock 02 LS1 and made 342rwhp after a tune and cold air intake. It runs solid 12’s with higher trap speeds than your TPI build. I’m sure it’ll win a lot of races against built TPI cars.
Originally Posted by Kevin91Z
Mikey asked in the SoCal forum if he should put the LS1 engine from his dad's car into his car. We TPI guys gave him several arguements why he should not, and the LS1 guys gave him several arguements why he should.
"well then open your eyes friend. all you gotta do is read the threads on the board."
That is a hot one. I am not going to search anything. I know what I have said. The onus is on you to back up your accusations.
I can see members of the LSx crowd have a reading comprehension problem with the continued post stating things that are not true. It's really amazing.
That is a hot one. I am not going to search anything. I know what I have said. The onus is on you to back up your accusations.
I can see members of the LSx crowd have a reading comprehension problem with the continued post stating things that are not true. It's really amazing.
All of a sudden when the TPI Cult is put on the spot, they are innocent purist but still open to all engines. However, the evidence posted proves how you guys belittle anything not TPI.
PS I'm against locking this thread, the more they post the more interesting the TPI v. LSX debate gets. First it was modded TPI vs. modded LSX, now its modded TPI v. stock LS1! Plus I'm sure the website has gotten a nice spike in activity due to this topic.
11-12-2010, 01:08 PM
#186
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Car: 99 Z28 / 68 Skylark
Engine: LS1 / 455
Re: So Cal member gets “attacked” for planning LS1 swap
I want this one answered!!!!
I bet the figure could make a BBC or LSX go into single digits.
Fact:
Comparing apples to apples means STOCK vs STOCK, MODIFIED vs MODIFIED.
Apples to oranges means a STOCK vs MODIFIED car.
Also, the stock F-Body LS1 record (this means never opened, heads never taken off, no cam swap, nothing.) is nearly 10.high.
So yes, I could stick a stock LSX in a thirdgen and be happy.
11-12-2010, 01:20 PM
#187
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Re: So Cal member gets “attacked” for planning LS1 swap
[quote=Z28FAST1;4733144]Looks like NY3RDGEN is a “closet” TPI Cult Member lmao!!!! Also, just because you know someone that builds fast cars doesn’t mean you know your “shizz.” Now we know your agenda in here, silly.
WTX are you talking about? Im not a closet anything. You must be the one with the bad reading skills. Read all my posts. I like LSX, TPI and all SBC's. You havent got a clue young man. And yes, youre right. It dosent mean i automatically know "shizz" but fact of the matter is, That i do. Im sure tons more than you ever will. You really shouldnt talk about things you havent got a clue about. You seem to be that guy on here that does though.
I guess becasue i have a TPI Thirdgen, Im a "closet Purist" LMFAO.
WTX are you talking about? Im not a closet anything. You must be the one with the bad reading skills. Read all my posts. I like LSX, TPI and all SBC's. You havent got a clue young man. And yes, youre right. It dosent mean i automatically know "shizz" but fact of the matter is, That i do. Im sure tons more than you ever will. You really shouldnt talk about things you havent got a clue about. You seem to be that guy on here that does though.
I guess becasue i have a TPI Thirdgen, Im a "closet Purist" LMFAO.
Last edited by NY3RDGEN; 11-12-2010 at 02:07 PM.
11-12-2010, 01:38 PM
#188
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Car: Trans Am, Corvette
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Re: So Cal member gets “attacked” for planning LS1 swap
To Z28SLOW1, You should really stop using the word "****" you seem to be in love with it for some reason, Must make u feel cool. But anyway, You could be offending people in here with youre choice of words. This is a public international forum.
11-12-2010, 01:44 PM
#189
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Car: 1989 Mystery Firebird
Engine: 350 FIRST TPI
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Re: So Cal member gets “attacked” for planning LS1 swap
[QUOTE=NY3RDGEN;4733154]
everyone loves a stock non modified 3rdgen here and there...
but NY3RDGEN is NOT a closet purist... when i said that he talked me out of it was because of $$$ he flat out sAID IF I HAVE THE CASH GO FOR IT... i dont so i didnt...
but no need to bash each other here guys... lets keep it civil please.....
Looks like NY3RDGEN is a “closet” TPI Cult Member lmao!!!! Also, just because you know someone that builds fast cars doesn’t mean you know your “shizz.” Now we know your agenda in here, silly.
WTX are you talking about? Im not a closet anything. You must be the one with the bad reading skills. Read all my posts. I like LSX, TPI and all SBC's. You havent got a clue young man. And yes, youre right. It dosent mean i automatically know "shizz" but fact of the matter is, That i do. Im sure tons more than you ever will. You really shouldnt talk about things you havent got a clue about. You seem to be that guy on here that does though.
I guess becasue i have a TPI Thirdgen, Im a "closet Purist" LMFAO.
WTX are you talking about? Im not a closet anything. You must be the one with the bad reading skills. Read all my posts. I like LSX, TPI and all SBC's. You havent got a clue young man. And yes, youre right. It dosent mean i automatically know "shizz" but fact of the matter is, That i do. Im sure tons more than you ever will. You really shouldnt talk about things you havent got a clue about. You seem to be that guy on here that does though.
I guess becasue i have a TPI Thirdgen, Im a "closet Purist" LMFAO.
everyone loves a stock non modified 3rdgen here and there...
but NY3RDGEN is NOT a closet purist... when i said that he talked me out of it was because of $$$ he flat out sAID IF I HAVE THE CASH GO FOR IT... i dont so i didnt...
but no need to bash each other here guys... lets keep it civil please.....
Last edited by spade; 11-12-2010 at 02:58 PM.
11-12-2010, 01:54 PM
#190
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Re: So Cal member gets “attacked” for planning LS1 swap
[quote=spade;4733171]
everyone loves a stock non modified 3rdgen here and there...
but NY3RDGEN is NOT a closet purist... when i said that he talked me out of it was because of $$$ he flat out sAID IF I HAVE THE CASH GO FOR IT... i dont so i didnt...
but no need to bash each other here guys... lets keep it civil please..... Thanx Buddy
NYTG FTW!!!!!
everyone loves a stock non modified 3rdgen here and there...
but NY3RDGEN is NOT a closet purist... when i said that he talked me out of it was because of $$$ he flat out sAID IF I HAVE THE CASH GO FOR IT... i dont so i didnt...
but no need to bash each other here guys... lets keep it civil please.....
NYTG FTW!!!!!
11-12-2010, 01:59 PM
#191
Guest
Posts: n/a
11-12-2010, 02:07 PM
#192
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: So Cal member gets “attacked” for planning LS1 swap
We are seeking friendly, performance-oriented people who have TPI engines in their vehicles.
Sorry, this is a SoCal TPI event and is only for members with TPI engines.
We are a fun, friendly group of people who want to get together and share our love for the 85-92 Camaro, Trans Am, and Corvette, as well as other vehicles of all years who have been converted to Tuned Port Injection.
Sorry, this is a SoCal TPI event and is only for members with TPI engines.
We are a fun, friendly group of people who want to get together and share our love for the 85-92 Camaro, Trans Am, and Corvette, as well as other vehicles of all years who have been converted to Tuned Port Injection.
11-12-2010, 02:27 PM
#193
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Car: 1986 Grand Prix TPI
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Re: So Cal member gets “attacked” for planning LS1 swap
SCTPI must stand for Selective Communication Thru Paltry Intelligence
11-12-2010, 02:35 PM
#194
Senior Member
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Car: 1991 Trans Am GTA
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Transmission: 4L60E (swapping)
Axle/Gears: 2.73 Posi 10 Bolt
Re: So Cal member gets “attacked” for planning LS1 swap
Why is this thread so long. Who cares. Lets all just let it drop.
I suspect... it will continue. Just a guess! 
11-12-2010, 02:47 PM
#197
Re: So Cal member gets “attacked” for planning LS1 swap
So you are comparing a built TPI motor(heads, cams, intake, etc) to a stock LS1? Wow, so you’ve given up on modded LS1’s and want to pick on bone stock LS1 swaps. In that case, you TPI guys can take the win!!
BTW, TPI TERR swapped in a bone stock 02 LS1 and made 342rwhp after a tune and cold air intake. It runs solid 12’s with higher trap speeds than your TPI build. I’m sure it’ll win a lot of races against built TPI cars.
BTW, TPI TERR swapped in a bone stock 02 LS1 and made 342rwhp after a tune and cold air intake. It runs solid 12’s with higher trap speeds than your TPI build. I’m sure it’ll win a lot of races against built TPI cars.
TPI members have came here and through their actions cemented the stereotype that they really are Cult/****. The new joke around the LSX Forum for high-horsepower builds is a sarcastic... "Should have put a TPI in there..."
All of a sudden when the TPI Cult is put on the spot, they are innocent purist but still open to all engines. However, the evidence posted proves how you guys belittle anything not TPI.
PS I'm against locking this thread, the more they post the more interesting the TPI v. LSX debate gets. First it was modded TPI vs. modded LSX, now its modded TPI v. stock LS1! Plus I'm sure the website has gotten a nice spike in activity due to this topic.
All of a sudden when the TPI Cult is put on the spot, they are innocent purist but still open to all engines. However, the evidence posted proves how you guys belittle anything not TPI.
PS I'm against locking this thread, the more they post the more interesting the TPI v. LSX debate gets. First it was modded TPI vs. modded LSX, now its modded TPI v. stock LS1! Plus I'm sure the website has gotten a nice spike in activity due to this topic.
Madmax, certain events, such as our dyno days, are for TPI vehicles only. Other events members are welcome to bring any vehicle they want.
11-12-2010, 04:02 PM
#198
Re: So Cal member gets “attacked” for planning LS1 swap
Some of you that participated should not be surprised to receive a follow-up warning posted to your account for not being able to discuss the topic on a civil and mature manner without personal attacks and insults.
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