TADailyDriver

iTrader: (8)

Im heading to the local drag strip after work tommrow nite. They are having their normal fun and grudge test and tune with a Midnight Madness at 9-11. I just worked the last of the many electrical gremlins out of my new engine I hope. Here are my engine specs:

1975 350 2 main bolt engine bored .40" (357)
Edelbrock Performer ESP Vortec Dual Plane Squarebore intake manifold
1999 Vortec 350 cylinder heads (062 casting #) new seals, stock.
Edelbrock Performer Plus Camshaft Flattappet .442" total lift on intake/exhaust
Edelbrock 600CFM Carburator with Vaccum secondaries
Hooker Super Competition Headers
Full 3" exhaust with single 3" cutout
K&M Open Element 14x3" Filter
1LE A/C delete Pulley
Smog pump bypassed
MSD "Ready to Run" E- Curve Distributor
Eagle Steel Crankshaft machined .10/.10
Keith Black Hypertenetic Teflon coated Aluminum Pistons w/ Cast Iron rings

Transmission Specs:

TH700R4 with complete overhaul/rebuild.
B&M Transgo Shift kit stage 2 with Corvette Servo
BullyDog 2400-2800 Stall Converter
High pressure/12 fin transmission pump
Kevlar Clutch band
Hi-performance clutch kit (dont remember brand name at this time)

Now Im running the stock gears in the rear for now, 2.73 (drum brakes). Im looking for a low to mid 14 second time slip but what do you all think i will run. Im running Nitto 555R Extreme Drag Radials for traction. All stock suspension setup as well. I believe a low 14 second time slip is possible with the right reaction time, but everyone ive talked to says a low 15 at best. Weather should be around the 60's to high 50's come 9pm. Cam isnt as big as i wanted but money got tight and it was free from a good friend and being brand new never used i couldnt say no. Ill post pics and vids as soon as i get them tommrow night.

TADailyDriver

iTrader: (8)

Well the track was so busy that i only got to make 2 passes in 4 hours!
but the car didnt make the times i was hoping for: here are my passes in order:

Pass #1

RT- +.1794
60 ft- 2.3388
330 ft- 6.6288
ET @ 594 ft- 9.4721
1/8 ET- 10.1036
1/8 MPH- 71.25
1000' ET- 13.085
1/4 ET- 15.6204
1/4 MPH- 88.88

The first pass was bad as i only stalled it at 2100 and the car started missing bad around 4k so i had to let out and get back into it. before the 2nd pass i jumped the timing up, dropped my rear tires to 25psi and took my air cleaner off.

pass #2

RT- +.4201
60 ft- 2.2719
330 ft- 6.3770
ET @ 594 ft- 9.1876
1/8 ET- 9.8151
1/8 MPH- 71.71
1000' ET- 12.7805
1000' MPH- 82.56
1/4 ET- 15.2931
1/4 MPH- 89.74

2nd pass was better, was able to stall the car at 2400rpm this time, engine didnt miss at all but bogged a little bit in 3rd. I definelty think a bigger carb and some 3.73 gears would give me an impovement. Car weights 3150 lbs with me in it. I was ruinning premium and tank was 1/2 full. I havent tested the stall with the new tires to see if the tires will hold around 3k. Might go back later this weekend and try and make some more runs. If anyone has any imput on what i can do to get better times it would be appreciated. I have 2 vidoes and will get them up asap. they were taken on a camera phone tho. Talked to a guy who had a 1987 GTA with a 96" LT1 with a ProChager pushing 850 Hp. He ran mid 9's at 136mph. In all i counted 7 thirdgens all together. Got alot fo good ideas for the next motor build hehe....

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

looks like there is something wrong somewhere.... the car isnt making any power.

why did you take the tpi motor out?

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

That thing is trapping like a turd, something wrong there.

TADailyDriver

iTrader: (8)

It was a TBI car.

TADailyDriver

iTrader: (8)

Ya it feels like it makes good power in the 2800-3500 rpm range after that it just dies. idk what to do i spent well over $2400 in just the engine build alone. I could of beefed up the stock 305 and proably run better times. Can anyone give me a hint on where i should start?

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

An intake and carb are calling your name.

TADailyDriver

iTrader: (8)

This is a guess but could a possibly have a vaccum problem and my secondaries not opening all the way or even at all? Im limited when it comes to intakes since im running Vortec heads, and yes i agree a bigger carb is in order. I was looking into a 650 or 700 cfm carb, but from who ive talked to they say anything above 650cfm is too much for my motor. Im really itching on buying a Holley 670 Street Avenger.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

I found my intake on the parts wanted board....

Gotta agree with the other guys. Sounds like you need a bigger/better carb and intake. That cam is fairly small, but it shouldn't trap at 88 mph at all.

BadBowtie88

My '88 IROC had a very small Crane cam with similar lift, 1 1/2" shorty headers, and lower control arms with the same tire and gear you're running with and no stall and turned out 14.40's all day with way faster trap speeds. Granted it was a TPI motor, but I would agree that you should start with your intake and carb.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

What is the cam specs?

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

What is the cam specs?

TADailyDriver

iTrader: (8)

I dont remember the specs off the top of my head right now, but i have the spec sheet in my toolbox at work. Ill bring it home and post the specs. If i cant get this car to break into the 14's before I put it away for winter, looks like I may be doing a whole top end rebuild, new cam intake and carb. But I believe I may be loosing most of my power at my y pipe in the exhaust. I will post a pic of how the exhaust shop built the y pipe and tell me what you all think.


Heres 2 videos from the track, first video is my 2nd pass me in the right lane against a friend of mine in his 93 k1500 350 TBI with a few mods, 2nd video is me against a 90 Camaro RS with a 396 BB.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9B1L4ZZbMHc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFCQUL0lJi0

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Something is very, VERY wrong here... with the exception of the cam and carb, assuming the rest is put together right you should be very close to 400hp. Even that cam and carb you should still be in roughtly the 350hp range with everything else right.

OTOH, your times, both 1/8 and 1/4, and your mph add up to ~175hp (at the crank). You say that it's better down low, but your times don't really show that, with a decent launch that hp/weight combination should be able to run a 1.85-1.9 60', so I unless you're getting a ton of wheelspin I'd guess you're even worse down low, the only reason it feels OK is the low first gear in the tranny and the converter. It's not the gears also, since the stall should cover up the lack of gear. Since all your numbers match up so well it's not like you have one or 2 things out of whack that just don't match up, you're just not making the power.

Do you know what compression ratio you ended up with, how far in the hole the pistons are...? Is it running OK? Cranking compression? I suppose it could be just very bad tuning, but I have a hard time believing that you're that far off. Disconnect any vacuum advance, hook up a timing light, you should be seeing something in the low/mid 30 something degrees advance (I'd like to see it by 25-2800, but as long as it's in by 3200-3400 or so it's OK. I can't imagine that if the fuel is significantly off one way or the other you wouldn't have noticed other problems.

Even an old school goodwrench replacement truck engine with compression in the 8's and crappy heads would have given you at least 250hp or more for about the same $ with much lesser parts, which should be enough to get a 3150 car into the mid 13's @ 100mph.

You tell us, you're so down on power there should be something obviously wrong.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

there's three performer plus cams for the sbc, the only one that matches your description is the one for a 400 small block:
#2103

ENGINE: CHEVY 400 V8
RPM RANGE: 1500-5500

Duration at 0.006" Lift: Intake: 288° Exhaust: 288°
Duration at 0.050" Lift: Intake: 214° Exhaust: 214°
Lift at Cam: Intake: 0.295" Exhaust: 0.295"
Lift at Valve: Intake: 0.442" Exhaust: 0.442"
Timing at 0.050" lift: Open Close
Intake: 0° ATDC 34° ABDC
Exhaust: 44° BBDC 10° BTDC
Centerlines: Lobe Separation - 112° Intake Centerline - 107°

Manic Z

iTrader: (1)

I'd say his problem is more in the tune or something mechanically wrong.
No way upping his carb is going to magically free up the 50 horses he's missing.

My guess is the timing is skewed, the carb is physically out of whack, and possibly not enough fuel pressure.

The combo itself should be trapping 94-98 mph or so.
(There's no way that combo should be making 400hp though, as someone stated)

TADailyDriver

iTrader: (8)

I dont know total compression as the builder never told me, When the engine was timed and tuned, a digital timing light had to be used because of the MSD igntion system I am running. Total timing was 32* @ 2000rpm. Is that too high for such low rpm? Distruibutor has no timing advance on it. I have no wheel spin according to the people who were watching me and I couldnt feel any. I still think the timing is off because i have to crank the car 2-3 times before it will start and the carb has a manual choke which is not hooked up. All the clearences were setup a little deeper then normal, builder asked me what i was going to use the engine for I told him street and strip and he said he would set the clearences a little deeper then normal in case something went astrew. Im running 6psi at the carb, with a Holley FPR slowing it down from 13psi at the pump. Im still running the stock TBI pump in the tank. I do have a small exhaust leak at the header gasket but i didnt notice it until after i made the passes and went to leave for then night after putting my cutout plate back on. I think my y pipe may playing a big factor in my problem as the y pipe is made of 2 1/4 pipe but at the collects, the pipe doesnt come down striaght it comes out at an angle and looks to me that maybe a good 1/2 of the exhaust is actually flowing out. heres some pics to show what i mean:

Driver side header:
http://img2.imageshack.us/i/0906091741.jpg/

Passenger side header, pipe heading to cutout:
http://img169.imageshack.us/i/0906091742.jpg/

I think i may try removing the y pipe and haul it to the track to see if that is the biggest problem. When i ran the car open headered on the street at my house, i could spin the tires in 2nd going WOT and it seemed much faster then. Now it seems slow and sluggish with the new exhaust. In all honesty i have NO IDEA where i went wrong or what is wrong. But i may start with the exhaust.

TADailyDriver

iTrader: (8)

that sounds about right on the cam specs, the box said it was for a 263-400 chey V8. Could i possibly be running the wrong cam for my engine?

87draggta

I had the same problem from my car. Except I had dart heads and a big cam and all that jaz. It ended up just being alot of little things. Check cheap stuff first, make sure your firing on all 8, a dead plug means a no power in that cylinder, then your timing, you said you dist doesn't have an advance was it welded up inside? If it was then timing can jump around. However, just for comparison I had a very similar set up except I had 305 heads and a 750 holley and ran 9.40's. Oh yeah and is your tranny slipping?

TADailyDriver

iTrader: (8)

Trannys not slipping btoh motor and transmiision only have 1,034 miles on them both. I may try and replaced the plugs ans wires, plugs were form my 305 but they only had 5000 miles on them and wires are cheap bosch. I need a 90/90 set for the headers and dizzy. and the dizzy doesnt have an advance on it because the ignition box is under the cap with 2 advance and retard modes with a rev limiter.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

so you have a basically stock vortec 350 on street tires and the car doesn't run well? hmm....

carb, intake, and CAMSHAFT...good lord the ramp rates on that camshaft are AWEFUL! 288* adv and only 214* @ .050! i bet it sounds like a pulp-wood truck going down the highway...especially with that y-pipe!

you just need more of everything, that's the biggest problem. you'll probably need to upgrade the valve springs and get the guides milled in the heads to clear more lift. if you're stuck with the converter you got and a hyd. flat tappet style camshaft, go with an comp XE grind, like a n XE268 or something that has more aggressive lobes. there is so much more to a camshaft then just overall lift numbers. the comp XE268 has less adv. duration then your cam, but MORE duration at .050" so that means the ramp rates are steeper, more aggressive, and that get's the valve open quicker. also, you want something with a split design to help out with the weaker exhaust flow rates of most traditional 23* small block heads. about an 8* split in duration numbers with the exhaust being the larger number.

for now, if you're not interested in doing a cam swap, do the simple things. get a better flowing exhaust, stickier tires, and get the carb/timing tuning dialed in. put fresh plugs/wires in it for cryin' out loud, lol! you just spent $X to put the motor together and skimped out on the last $80 to put fresh ignition parts on it? come on man....

Jay

iTrader: (2)

This is a MAJOR problem. Completely WRONG plug. It's too short. You need a Vortec head specific plug with a longer reach. Put the right plugs in and you will see a big difference.
ACDelco R44LTS @ .035" or equivalent brand of your preference.

TADailyDriver

iTrader: (8)

FYI if you would of read the first entry I have Nitto 555R Extreme Drag Radials on the rear. Since when did those be considered street tires??? Yes the cam is weak but when money got tight and the damn thing was free I was not going to complain. But yes it needs a better flowing exhaust, and yes I am going to swap a new cam in this winter as well as have the heads milled. I just picked up some Ac delco Platnuim plugs today at work and bought some MSD 8.8mm wires. I will be putting those in tonight after work along with some Copper Mr. Gasket header gaskets as ive already blwon through 2 sets of header collector gaskets and now its time for header gaskets. Anyway howd those center caps I sold you for your Firebird work out???

Jay

iTrader: (2)

Did you make sure to get them for a Vortec head? The Vortec head is not the same as the standard SBC head in this regard. Using a standard plug for your old engine, ends up with a plug that's close to a 1/4" too short.

TADailyDriver

iTrader: (8)

sure did and im glad because 4 diffrent techs at the dealership told me there was NO difference but yes infact there was. the old plug was like you said about a 1/4"too short. Put the new plugs in with new wires and i can already feel the differnece. car starts right away on first crank, idles better and the acceleration does seem a little better but I wont be able to exaclty tell how much better until I go back to the track. Going to call around and get pricing on having a new y pipe made. If no one quotes me lower then what the Hooker 2055 y pipe is off jegs then ill go that route. Ill even post a pic i took to show the difference and to show off at the shop to prove them wrong haha. thanks Jay for the imput! Now i just have to pinpoint my exhaust leak i can hear but not feel when i move my hand around the headers and y pipe.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

The 305 plugs should also be too hot… for that matter, you have a lot of hints there that your compression is low, and from some of your answers I suspect that the pistons are too far in the hole, total compression is low… I would confirm, if your compression is under 9:1 you’ll be fighting that no matter what else you do, and my and other’s suggestions will never get you where you want to go. Sounds like your engine builder is at best not very helpful, at worst possibly clueless.

I still think that there’s a major tuning problem somewhere, but obviously there are parts that are lacking in the combination also. I disagree with the thoughts about a fuel delivery problem, generally if that’s the issue you see a car that runs great till half track or the top end that all of a sudden falls over, like I said, the numbers you posted you’re just not making power anywhere.

With your added information, I’d start with a _much_ better exhaust, with those headers if you want something that will work run 2-1/2” pipes, and run the 2 sides around the passenger side frame rail and use something like the flowmaster 2.5”-3” Y (spend the money, most shops won’t do nearly as well). The matching Y is OK, but not great, I’ll attach a pic of a really beat up setup (the car was lowered a lot, and parts that were flattened were cut out and replaced multiple times, making it look worse than it is) for those headers with 2.5” tubing to 2.5” high flow cats, flowmaster Y and no muffler that worked great.

Better, if you can stand the loss of ground clearance long tube headers are the way to go.

Better cam… the cam mentioned by Matt is a good choice if you don’t want to mess with the heads, otherwise I’d consider springs and cutting down the guides and go with something more serious. Until you mess with the heads you won’t be able to run a cam that will really work with this setup.

Next you’ll want a bigger carb, something in the 750 range should be OK.

Converter choice will depend on your compression and final cam choice. Gears will help, but not as much as the right converter.

Nittos are pretty much street tires… keep the pressures high in them on the street and you’ll get 20-30K miles out of them (generally I get more miles out of them then more normal street radials, since the bit of extra traction cuts down on some of the wheel spin)

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

by the tone of your responce, you took what i had to say the wrong way. i slapped you with some facts, don't get all wrapped around the axle because of that. i didn't call you an idiot or anything, just giving you a crash course in how to get the car down the track.

i'm sure the plugs/wires will show dramatic improvement since they're the right plugs now.

i HIGHLY recommend going with an aluminum collector gasket. they work far better than the copper and are nearly in-destructable.

good luck

ps-my mother is really enjoying the car, and the centercaps, once painted, looked great! though i think i told you that in a pm already when i received them.

TADailyDriver

iTrader: (8)

yes i will admit i took your responce the wrong way and im sorry. glad your mother is enjoying the car

TADailyDriver

iTrader: (8)

Well i stopped by the exhaust shop that did my exhaust for me and had a nice chat with the woner. told him I was not satisfied with the outcome of my y pipe and asked they re make it for a decent price. He looked at it, admitted it looked like crap and agreed to have one made up for my car to my liking for FREE. So I'm dropping the car off to him next week, told me he would take 2 days to get this right. Im also having them remove the Hi-Flow MagaFlow converter I had them install, as the car is too quiet with it on and I'd much rather just have a total free flowing exhaust. Im also in the process of looking for a used Holley or Demon 700-750 Carb. I'm going to attempt and re tune the engine this weekend, but even the intructions that came with my MSD distributor are hard to follw when it comes to adjusting the advancments under the cap. Would anyone have a general indea of where to set them? Ill post pics and even a link to the intructions themselves if that will help.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

i'd honestly like to see you go with a mechanical secondary 650 cfm holley. it'll have much crisper throttle response than a 700+ with that camshaft/compression combination.

you have a decent cylinder head, we just need to get you setup with more parts to help compliment what you have.

TADailyDriver

iTrader: (8)

Now if im correct the only way to raise my compression is to have the deck of the heads milled to bring them closer to the pistion correct? if so, what compression ration should I be shooting for? I would like to possibly add a small shot of NO2 into this combo come spring, maybe just a small 50-75 shot as I believe the engine could handle it. But with not having forged pistions I would be taking a huge risk wouldnt I?

Guest

Really? Was not aware they made one. I suspect you are probably mistaken. Was this carb tuned at all to the motor? Out of the box bolted on could leave a whole lot on the table with one of those.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

those are an on demand style secondary system, so while they don't have a vacuum cansister, it still vacuum demanded. they are similiar to a quadrajet in that respect.

Guest

I know how they work, its not vacuum operated like a Holley so the secondaries are opening and as long as the engine is working they are doing the job. Its not like a Quadrajet that you have adjustments to make there too, its non adjustable and really not something you would need to 'fix'.

TADailyDriver

iTrader: (8)

carb acutally hasnt been adjusted much per say, just the idle screw and I adjusted the A/F adjustments on the front go the the engine to run right but with now knowing much about carbs, Im not really sure what else to adjust. Ill have to double look at the box for the carb and see exactly what it says but i know its a 600.

TADailyDriver

iTrader: (8)

Alright guys, I know this is an old thread but a lot of things have changed since the last time I posted. Tons of new parts have been added and I have yet to hit the track yet this spring so I wanted to see what you all are perdicting I'm going to run this year. So here goes the new list of parts:

1. Junked the 600 Edlebrock carb and added a Holley 650 Electric Choke vaccum secondaries, Spreadbore carb with 1" adapter plate

2. GM 3.73 gears and junked the stock 2.73

3. Ported the intake and Vortec heads to match

4. Under drive pulley kit, crank, alternator, and water pump

5. Installed GM platnuim vortec plugs (didnt find out I had the wrong plugs in when I built my motor,, ran like *** at the track haha)

6. Had a pretty much basic tune done to the dizzy, still haven't gotten it figured out yet but I can tell it runs better already)

7. New Moser 10 bolt 26 spline axles

I know that ive done more but Im drawing a blank. Now last year with bad tune, wrong plugs, small carb, and stock gears I ran 15.6 best with 29psi in the drag radials. Im hoping for AT LEAST a low 13 at best. What do you all think?

Shagwell

Any idea what spring is in the secondaries? The OE holley spring does not start to open till around 5k, and basically never fully opens. Thus with such a mild cam, it will need to be addressed, otherwise you'll basically be running on a 2-barrel.

Sounds like you should have the parts to meet your goals, whether you do or not comes down to the tuning and the launch.

87WS6

iTrader: (1)

I was going to recommend getting head work done on those Vortecs. Seriously the stock Vortec truck heads do not make all that much power in stock form. The new gears will help. Of this I am certain. I don't think the Holley carb will add performance as much as its just a better carb than the Edlejunk 600. Beyond what you've done I'd suggest doing some suspension work. Make sure all your bushings and end links are good, then go with new lower control arms and a panhard bar at the very least. This should enable you to put that power to the ground better. Some racing tires will also help you quite a bit if you haven't done that already.

TADailyDriver

iTrader: (8)

Im not sure what spring it may have, they guy I bought it from said he added a few things to hop up the carb some when he had it on his Monte Carlo, and I'm changing out the rear sway bar end links and sway bar this weekend for some red poly bushings and a used spohn sway bar I bought off craigslist. Already have some Nitto 555R tires for the rear which will be going on before the weekend as dd this car last year really tore them up and so I swapped over to just a used set of GoodYear Eagle GA's which came on the Iroc's from the factory. No grip but it likes to slide around corners now when I want it too. Already have my eye on a newcamshaft that may get ordered in the next few weeks, 480* on intake and 492* on exhaust along with a set of beehive springs. Im even going to run the car with the full exhaust hooked up and then the cutouts open to see which I have better times with. With a new custom exhaust costing me in the range to $250-300, that's the last thing on my list to do this spring.

Shagwell

If you go taller than .470 lift with vortec heads, careful attention needs to be paid the the retainer-to-guide clearance; often the guides need to be machined down.

As noted by 87WS6, the OE casting flash in the bowls right behind the valves is a flow killer on stock vortecs. A little grinding can really wake them up.

TADailyDriver

iTrader: (8)

Well I have a set to Trickflow head laying in my basement from a 383 stroker that i purchased years ago, was thinking of swapping to those and selling the Vortec's. How much more power do you think I would gain by swapping them and also installed an Air gap intake to match?