Speed_Kills

Stopped at the shop tonight to see the progress of my rebuild and blower install.

To bring everyone up to speed. Picked up a perfect 84 Z28 for 400 and am building it up to be the perfect sleeper. The 90 T/A i had looked at fell through.

Here's what's done so far...

Engine rebuild - 8.5:1 forged
Eaton M112 kit
Blower cam - 212/232
Trickflow heads
750 Carb
Hooker LT's
Off road Y
Borla

So far because the fuel system isn't complete we could only run on 4 psi.

371rwhp
388rwtq

Can't wait to see what she does at 10. Hopefully the fuel system will be done by this weekend.

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

I dont think the smaller bore of a 305 is near as much of a hinderance in a forced induction application. Heck thicker cylinder walls of the 305 probably are more stable and promote better ring seal under boost if we want to split hairs about it.

pretty awesome power numbers. what intake manifold are you using?

MaxxMitchell

iTrader: (4)

Sleeper, with a blower?

Get picks, this sounds interesting.

Nice numbers so far, theres so much left in it. Im betting that youll see 475+rwhp.

Apeiron

305s have thicker cylinder walls?

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

That's because you're filling the cylinders sooo much better with forced induction. It's almost like adding extra displacement! Good looking numbers!!

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I like it. That is the great thing about boost......adjustable displacement. I wish GM had electronic lifters. That would be great.....adjustable cam.

What model are the TrickFlow heads? Who ground the cam and to who's specs? Do you have a part number for the Forged pistons with the 62cc?? Trickflow heads?

flrtin1

Something alot of people are unaware of is with a 76cc head you can use a 2.02 valve on a 305 with a .500/.500 lift add a 12.5 effective compression to that (9-10psi w/7.5:1 static compression) and you get some really stout numbers......but sssshhhhhh dont let the cat outa the bag

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I don't think that really is a secret. People swap them both ways....detonation overhang and all. Last I knew TrickFlow only had a 62cc or 72cc chambers. Where did the 76cc come from? Are you trying to say that the pistons are just regular flat tops?

You mentioned 7.5:1 and your engine is 8.5:1. You picked up the 1 point because of the 72cc vs. 76cc heads. You may even need less lift with the Trickflow heads if the have the non-23* valve angles. Are they the P/N# 304xxxxxxx?

How is that thing off of the line? What RPM is 4PSI of boost at?

flrtin1

I think you may have what I posted and the original poster mixed up

flrtin1

Watch your octane level because you will be around 14.8:1 effective compression with that setup........post the numbers I am sure they will be good

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Yup, I do. Sorry about that.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

MOST of the older blocks do. Some are as thick as the 283s that were bored .125" over.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

There’s absolultely nothing wrong with making power with a 305… like I’ve said many times before, a blower makes up for the small bore’s impingement on airflow (for that matter, look at the proportions of most modern engines, you’ll see that they are going more and more the way of a 305 and less like a 350 or 302), as can good heads, and the smaller bore also makes the engine less detonation sensitive.

Lets see some pics and do some tuning, that thing should have _A LOT_ more in it than 371hp…

The nice thing about those eaton blowers is that when you have them setup right you basically have boost wherever you give it throttle, the engine pretty much just acts like a larger engine when you give it throttle, but can still cruise and sip gas like a smaller engine at part throttle with the bypass open.

What are you running for a bypass? Which M112 do you have? We’re using a jag one to replace my brother’s M90 and I’ve got an Austin martin one floating around also…

As far as some of the other stuff:
- 305’s use a different casting for the block then the 350… it’s not just a 350 with the bores cut smaller. The walls are actually thinner because the coolant passages are larger.
- Yes, in general older blocks tend to have thicker walls, but that is not specific to 305’s
- Sleeper? Those bowers can get VERY loud… are you running the TB before or after the blower?
- Flrtin1… is this something specific to some 76cc heads or are you getting at something else? You can use a 2.02 valve in a lot of SBC heads on a 305, irrespective of the chamber size, but you have to relieve the edge of the bore to do it and you never will unshroud the valve in that bore without actually relocating the valve in the head.

Mike-91 Formula 350

Yea they'll make power with enough work.I seen an 85 Camaro class car run 12.50's with stock heads, intake and Q-Jet.

PETE

iTrader: (1)

You would most likely see a better performance improvement by increasing your exhaust valve size while paying close attention to removing every bit of the restriction under that 1.94 valve as opposed to slapping on a set of 2.02/1.60 heads.

Turbo motors need little help in the intake dept. up to a point. The increase in cfm afforded by going to a 2.02 as opposed to a cleaned up 1.94 valve head could be made up by turning the boost up a tad. Up to a point this will work, after that you'll have to look into a ton of variables concerning port stall/ overall restriction of the intake, etc.

There comes a point where going from 26 psi setting gets you xxxhp, but going to 30 psi only nets you 10 more hp. At that point you've reached either the max potential of the turbo or the ability to flow that air past it's restrictions....

AFBCamaro

flrtin1 you are saying too much!!! Thats was a family recipe.

TBI92Camaro

And at the end of the day its STILL a 305. Imagine how much more power you would make with 350+ cubes instead of a worthless paperweight 305.

And dont try and lecture me on 305's. Ive been there, done that. Hell, we "built" one for a V8 s10. waste of money.

the ONLY small displacement motor Ill mess with is a 302, Ford or chevy. Otherwise, Im going to need at LEAST 346 cubes to even begin considering building it.

PETE

iTrader: (1)

There's always at least one of you


Good job on the numbers!

And I've been there too with a small 3.80x3.40 motor making more power than most V8's. There is no point to that argument when you cram air into a motor.

Want an experiment? Grab a 350 and change nothing! Same heads, same cam, same intake, etc. And see how much power it'll make!!!!!!!

flrtin1

Hehe my bad.......I will shut up now

Threxx

If only you weren't a compulsive liar who creates false identities about non-existant cars all over the 'net.

Speed_Kill's current identity, as he is on this board:
Latest Threxx sleuthing fact: Speed_Kills = UtOhCop - CamaroZ28.Com Message Board

Regarding his previous identity all over the 'net:
I have proof that UtOhCop was a liar - CamaroZ28.Com Message Board

Brisk

iTrader: (25)

thanks Threxxx

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

I have done it, swapped a 305 shortblock with a spun rod-bearing for a 355 short-block. Both had the same ported 601s, same MTC1 cam, (corresponding 305/350 ECM and Injectors), same intake, same TBI unit, same headers, same exhaust, etc. It won't make much more HP if any, but it will make tons more torque down low.

Casey_Butt

371 rwhp
388 rwtq

hahahahaha

That's about 450 fwhp and 465 fwtq ...nice paperweight.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Casey_Butt,
You might want to put your age in your public profile so that you don't get flamed more making posts like this. I am guessing you just got out of High School so I won't say aything bad.

How did you come up with 450 FWHP?

Threxx

You guys bickering about the horsepower do realize that you're bickering about stuff that's almost gaurenteed to be 100% non-existant. Speed_Kills has no motor putting out those kind of numbers - they're just another one of the hundreds of fabricated lies he's come up with over the last year on this among many other message boards.

Project84TA

is there any possibility that this is supposed to be horses at the flywheel???? it almost might make sense (although those hp loss formulas dont really make sence, that some % of power is lost but w/e) but if it really means front-wheel horsepower well...

vwdave

A 350 will always make more power than a 305 if everything remains the same.

Now, add forced induction and that difference gets smaller because forced induction takes away the 305 inheritant disadvantage.

As long as a 350 and a 305 exists, this argument will never end. I accepted this stuff and moved on. Why cant most of you?

PETE

iTrader: (1)

What I shoulda explained was that putting the same heads cam intake from a 305 on the 350 would result in a few % diference in power. Something that will not be measureable at the track. The overall performance of the car running both engines would be very similar. Under pressure a 305 will be able to produce as much power as anyone here(for the most part) needs.


If a 3.8X3.4 V6 with super s.h.i.t.t.y heads (even when ported with 1.77/ 1.55 valves) can pull a 3600lb car into the 10's, there is no reason a 3.766X3.48 engine with 2 extra cylinders could not do the same. That and the extra headbolt provision goes a long way to keep the heads on.

B Rhodes

I cant believe THREXX points him out as a loser with nothing better to do than fabricate cars on the net (he is probably a 15 year old with no girl friend) and people still want to argue?????

Casey_Butt

You might want to include your name.

I never cease to be surprised by what some grown men (I assume) take exception to.

I approximated a 20% drivetrain loss.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

It's in the sig. When posting things in bold it means that you felt the information was important but failed to include any back up info.
A simple component list would have backed up the bold information.

Sounds reasonable.



In general, I think PETE summed it up the best. Who cares how many cubic inches make the power. All that matters in the final FHWP and torque. Most of the cars out there can't get that power to the ground anyway so bragging about HP is pretty much useless. It isn't hard to make huge horsepower with big boost or nitrous on a small engine that will only make 5 passes on a dyno or track.......but it will give you a bragging right I guess.
Take a look at what the motorcyle world is making for HP with boost and small cubic inches. Now apply that to chevy V8s.

Project84TA

ok sorry about the whole front wheel horsepower thing i realized after i posted that, hey, wow, it is flywheel horsepower and i probably just made a complete *** of myself.
again sorry about that,
Joe

305q_ta86

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, but you can be 60 and still immature.

Casey_Butt

Very true. Yet on the other hand, I've taught engineering students who were 19 and quite mature. I've also been confronted by very immature PhDs, both professionally and socially.

About a year and a half ago I was talking to some junior engineers from GM ...they were recent graduates in their early-to-mid twenties.

At the same conference I was talking to a guy who designs superchargers for use in computer-controlled applications.

This is exactly the point that I was attempting to illustrate ...hence the big letters. There's way too much pointless, dogmatic 305 bashing that goes on here. It does nothing to help people on the board and, in most cases, only distracts from the original post and ruins the thread.

Personally, I'm building both a 350 (which will probably become a 383) and a 305 (which "might" become a 334). Of course, the 350 has a distinct potential advantage over the 305, but that does not mean that the 305 is a "paperweight" or cannot develop impressive horsepower ...especially at 5500 rpm and below for a street machine. There's nothing sacred about a 350 block, and nothing shameful about a 305 ...but that's the way a lot of the "immature" people tend to see it. And I have to add here: Yes, I know that a properly built 350 will build more tq and hp for less money than an equally prepared 305 or 334 - if I don't include that I'm sure somebody will jump in here to tell me that the 305 is a worthless waste of money

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

It's comments like these that really bother me. Yes, a 350 will always make more power than a 305. I'll add to this by saying, yes, a 454 will always make more power than a 350. Just enjoy the hobby for crying out loud, no matter what engine you're building...

Do dyno numbers really mean than much to people? I remember reading about Preston Smith's 305 powered Iroc, w/Vortech supercharger, and he ran 10's at full weight. He then went with a turbo charger, and has since hit the 9's. I mean yeah, a 350 will make more power than a 305 on the dynojet, and a 454 will make more power than a 350, but every single one of them has been proven by someone to be capeable of street legal 9's.

The goals are always the same, now matter what the individual's approach... no?

Peace already!

Willie

iTrader: (1)

I like my worthless paperweight....

I also like my supercharged, 32-valve 281 cubic inch Ford.....

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

Preston Smith is running a 4.025" bore and a 3" stroke. that's cool i suppose, but not a traditional 305.

Willie, have you gotten any numbers yet? looks like i'm gonna be the nitrous guy in the mix. always gotta have a turbo, super charger and nitrous guy. been 12.5 already n/a with my 305 and i still have tuning to do.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

That's with his current setup though. When "Kinetic Engineering" was published back in the early 90's, he was initially running a vintage 305 block when he hit 10's;

"Preston bolted together a 1990-vintage 305 with splayed four-bolt mains while he continued to drive the IROC. The improved block was fitted with a forged crank, J.E. .030-inch-over hypereutectic pistons (with the tops ceramic-coated by Swain). Mechart stainless steel boxed rods and a Lingenfelter 272 hydraulic roller cam.

Cognizant of the need for the 305 to breathe, Smith topped the block with Air Flow Research Stage One street aluminum heads equipped with stainless steel roller rocker arms and big ceramic-coated valves. They're tied together by Arizona Speed Marine oversize runners connected to an Extrude-honed manifold base; the upper plenum has been ported and matched to the runners. An ASM 52mm throttle body with airfoil (flowing 750 cfm) and Bosch injectors (30 lb/hr) round out the induction.

Oh, yes, there's the matter of that Vortech supercharger - and the 16 pounds of boost Preston has dialed into it. Recognizing the potential side effects of such a highly squeezed intake charge, Smith fabricated a custom air-to-liquid intercooler with its own pump and radiator system; subsequent track testing revealed the intercooler was good for about 35 horsepower. Preston reins in the supercharger with an MSD boost retard; an MSD 6AL two-step spark intensifier is also employed, along with the stock (albeit indexed) distributor and Moroso heli-wound plug wires. An ACCEL power processor helps out the on-board computer system. The estimated power is approximately 550 hp at the flywheel.

That kind of power will cripple a stock driveline in short order, so the stock automatic was replaced with a 700-R4 modified by CJM Racing Transmissions utilizing B&M internals and an Art Carr 10-inch, 2500rpm stall-speed non-lockup torque converter. It all ties into a 3.54:1-geared Dana 44 which, even equipped with Moser axles, became the car's Achille's heel.

"At New England Dragway last summer, I jumped down into the low-1.5 second 60-foot times", Preston recollected. "Normally, that isn't a problem, but with a 3500-pound car, it is. I popped the spider gears inside the housing because the axle tubes were flexing. We're in the process of fitting the car with a nine-inch differential with 3.70 gears and a Detroit Locker and 35-spline axles. I even had to brace the back of the housing!".

Smith also intends to send the entire intake system-air plenum, runners, lower intake manifold and cylinder heads - to Extrude-Hone, where the whole package will be port-matched. "It should be good for about 20 hp" Preston noted. "It doesn't sound like much, but on this kind of car you can't achieve big power gains in a single step. All the easy things have already been done". The extra ponies should be enough to drop the 3745-pound (with driver) machine well into the 10-second time zone. It's already turned in a best of 10.975 on D.O.T.-approved 275/60-15 M&H tires; changing to slicks has lowered the times to 10.86, although the speed drops off a bit (125.3 versus 126.7 mph) "because the D.O.T. tires are more flexible, and tend to 'grow' a bit more at the top end....".

Either way, as long as the engine builder is having fun with whatever it is he or she is building, thats what it's really all about. Also, I wouldn't doubt the fact that Preston would have eventually achieved 9's on that very same small block that he used initially. Where there's a will, there's a way!

Edit: For those who never read the thread before...

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

right, but his 9 second passes were with the new setup, which is about 3 years old now. i'm not discounting it at ALL. though Rich Aman has been 10.98@121mph n/a with a traditional bore size 305 in his H/Stock car...though it's not much of a street car. i don't want it to sound like i'm taking anything away from Preston's ride, it's frickin' awesome, but he's not the only person out there with fast 305's. mine will remain street driven as well, though i'm not limited by emissions where i live so there is no point in me trying to remain emissions legal. especially on my budget. i'd like to see a 10.99 out of it with spray before it's replaced with a 383.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

When I initially responded, I mentioned Preston's ride running in the 10's w/the vortech. I only threw in the 9's to make it known that he has in fact gone faster. Also, the great thing about that old article is the fact that he was running these numbers with that much weight. If we follow the old racing belief of every one hundred pound reduction, resulting in approximately a tenth in the quarter mile, this says a great deal if Preston decided go that route, and get her down to about 3100-3300 lbs, way back when....

Also, we need to delve into how camshaft technology, and tuning ability has progressed since 1994... as well as increasing boost level. Without a doubt, if someone followed on Preston's original concept with the vortech, but taking it a little bit further, I firmly believe that 9's will be realized, with a similar setup (with excellent street manners).

Your's is extremely impressive. I always boast about you're accomplishment's to everybody over at e-Town....

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

i can't wait to get home and start crackin' again! it looks like i'm gonna take out some more weight and try my best to get the chassis completely up to par while i'm home in August.