383backinblack

hey guys.......im still shakin' down the f1R procharged 383 here, and tonight i had an interesting occurence.....maybe someone has some experience here and can give me something to check first.....

first off this thing rips......like insanity.......but tonight i got on the highway, and romped on it in 4th gear, it pulled HARD to about 5000rpm, and then all of a sudden it just started breaking up.......anyone have any ideas?

i pounded on it at lower speeds later on in lower gears and it didn't do that.......we're talking someplace in the neighborhood of 15psi of boost here......the ignition is a 6al with digital programmable timing controller retarding timing on boost, full timing until 6psi, then pulls 1 degree per 1psi of boost......fuel seems to be fine as well, didn't notice any lean spikes on the wideband.

so my question is, does anyone have any idea what this might have been? spark plug gap too big? coil running out of gas after 5 years?

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

is it possible that you're pulling too much timing? i mean that's 9 degrees...

383backinblack

ya, but theres still like 25 degrees of total timing at that point at about 15psi

Saigon_Bob

iTrader: (2)

whats your gap @

383backinblack

its at .050.......i thought my ignition was powerful enough to handle that, but past 15psi i may have been mistaken

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

wow...that's a bunch of gap. some of the guys i run with (yeah, like i have a blower, right, lol!) were having issues with the boost charge actually blowing the spark out at high rpms with too large of a gap. a 6AL probably isn't enough with the power level you're at now. most guys i know are running Digital 7's...my personal experience with this is limited so take everything i say with a grain of salt. i'm just throwing out ideas.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Shakes head.

if you're not sure when and where a high energy ignition application is needed though, you might want to reconsider building an engine like that and do alot more research and questing for understanding first.

Close the gap or bigger ignition.

383backinblack

actually i ordered a digital 7 and a 3 bar map sensor for it 3 days ago, thanks for asking though.

this is a tuning issue dude, not a lack of knowledge as it relates to engine theory.

you're talking about an adjustment versus not knowing what parts are suited for a certain application......im glad you pointed that out, so we could see you being a dink, glad i could clear it up for you though......you know goddamn well if you honestly think you're building 1000hp engine, and you what o-rings are for and where to use them you're in Sh*t up to your neck already......unless of course you're not doing the work yourself, which is also within the realm of possibility

but once again, thanks for hijacking a thread where i had hoped a wealth of experience about boost related plug gapping would be shared
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PS....the digital 7 doesnt put out a ton more energy than the 6al either.....its like 120 millijoules vs 190 millijoules.......some, but not massively bigger.....and no, im not going to get a magneto

TTA850

Try closing the gap and see what happens, on my turbo buick motor I run the plugs at .032 and run 19 psi on the street and 25 psi on racegas with 100% stock ignition and no issues. Most of the guys I know run between .030-.035 in boosted applications, some tighter.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

so, was i close then?

FSTFBDY

iTrader: (33)

I'm 2nd 3rd or 4th that tighten up the gap.. Sounds like your blowing the spark out at higher boost levels.

383backinblack

thanks guys......im definitely gonna try reducing the gap to like .035 with the new digital 7 this weekend.....and then we'll see what happens i guess haha.

i really need to get this thing on the dyno for like a whole day....then hit the track

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

You should have probably asked here first before wasting your money.

??? You already have the answer? Tune it then. Engine theory is engine theory whether it is assembling code for an ECM or cutting pipe for some exhaust or o-ringing a block. It is still all engine theory.

Kind of ironic that your own statement offended you more than the person you initially targeted it towards. Actually, it is down right funny. You are talking about having the wrong ignition....what 's the difference? He could "tune" his block with o-rings / head gaskets.

You are welcome. I told you the solution. Once again, close the gap or better ignition. You're welcome again.

I guess you don't know what an ignition box does.....much less what a millijoule is. Your best bet is to get an electronics book and learn about what an inductor is and does. Do you understand what happens to the energy (millijoules) when you close the spark plug gap? Yeah, fiddling with it on the dyno for a few days may help out.

383backinblack

you're an idiot dude, i don't know what a millijoule is? my being a couple credits short of a degree in electrical engineering says i have a pretty good idea, and have a decent grasp on what a CD ignition box does you dolt.

my work speaks for itself, as most people on here have seen........it never ceases to amaze me.....the bigger and more powerful you build, the more people that wait in line to talk sh*t and try and take shots at it. take a look at the fabrication pictures, and tell me i don't know what im doing.

this is why i don't post on this board very often.....because of hero's like yourself that feel the need to try and make themselves feel superior by arguing semantics and being a keyboard warrior......i stand by what i said, because its right.

like i said if you think im that inept, search out some posts and look at the build process......you obviously have enough free time to grab quotes from one thread and find another one to apply them to try and **** on people.

Saigon_Bob

iTrader: (2)

well anyways.... you pretty much have the idea... i'd say start with the least amount of gap.... prolly .020 and work your way up until you "A" get spark problems again or "B" run outa gains

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Flexing your e-muscles will definately make you appear smarter on the web when asking for help. Are you really sure that you will get that degree? You are on the web asking people how an ignition (think electrical engineering) works. You might want to anti-up and re-take a few of your analog circuit courses. Somewhere along the way you missed the V = L*di/dt thing.

Yup, your work sure speaks for itself. I seem to remember you posted some fuel tank pics with some nice fresh butt-connectors on the fuel pump wires. Now that is quality work for an electrical engineering student. What does power have to do with your inadequate ignition system. Again, close the spark gap or go with a bigger (more powerful) ignition. Spark blow-out makes very little power.

I have to thank you for not posting that often. For some reason you like to ask for help but then freak out about the answers you get. I typically feel dumber after reading anything you post. I was just trying to help you out with what you need to do with your ignition system. Then somewhere you got all proud. Take three deep breathes and relax.....it is going to be OK. It is just a car.

I never said you are inept. Actually, you did. I said you should get a good electronics book so you could understand why your ignition system is not enough. As an electrical engineer you should be able to model it and see that it would not work BEFORE you even built it.
Yes, I grabbed that quote because instead of helping the guy out you just gave him a hard time. I helped you out by saying bigger ignition or close the gap and you still give me a hard time. Anyway, save some of the money you are wasting on ignitions and put it towards taking some analog circuit courses.

slapi01

hey black, just wondering what plugs you are running in that monster. i also agree with tightening up the gap some more. i believe i set mine at .035, but i am also running less boost. isn't it great having to work out these little bugs on a engine that still runs insane. listen to the guys here that want to offer help to ya if you get waht i am saying. (hint hint)

i have learned alot on this site and thank alot of guys here to help me get my engine to where it is today. the only thing is that coming home work a hard day's work to jump on this site and have to read stuff that makes me wonder why people bother coming on.

383backinblack

there are alot of people on this board that have a wealth of knowledge and experience and most have the hardware to show for it.......unfortunately they aren't the ones that jump in an answer every thread, for the same reason i don't post here very often anymore.

i set mine at .032 this afternoon......so i'll try that and see how it runs

the infamous preston smith, who's a neighbor of mine, warned me when i started this project what i was in for with people constantly having something to say about it or about me or how im doing it......thats why you don't see guys like him on message boards most of the time.

the plugs are NGK r4118s-75 i think.......im not positive if that the right part no. im remembering it off the top of my head.......but its a cold racing plug

CrazyHawaiian

Sorry to get off topic but I find it halarious that you say this. From everything I've seen junkcltr has been very helpfull to everyone and I don't think I've ever seen him get personal with anyone. You on the other hand, yeah you got knowledge and results to prove it, but you're arrogant, you got an attitude problem, and you like to make personal insults. Peoples cars and the mods they have isn't the issue here, its the attitude. Here's some things you've said to me in the past, a short display of your awesome attitude

Maybe you should seriously ask yourself who likes to make themselves feel superior and who the real keyboard warrior is. Sure as heck isn't junkcltr.

Oh yeah good luck solving the ignition problem. I'm actually supprised you didn't pull the plugs and try different gap settings before posting.

383backinblack

once again, the issue here is message board behavior......people that don't know me, or have never taken the time to actually listen to what im saying assume that i'm arrogant......

this is not even remotely true......people dislike the fact that i tell it like it is, without exception....i dont let anything slide.......when someone says something thats total BS i'm gonna call them on it, and people HATE when they cant get away with something like that.

id also like to congratulate you on another ridiculous message board behavioral problem......quoting people out of context in order to make a point no matter how far off base it is. post the links to all those threads so people can see how the entire process transpired.....not to mention that was at least 2-3 years ago.

Ol'Blue

iTrader: (1)

OMG....Internet...OMG...I posted again OMG such drama...this is getting to be like the streetracingdayton forum I frequent...carry on....

Saigon_Bob

iTrader: (2)

OMG GUYS I DRIVE A CAMARO TOO AND OMG IT BREAKS DOWN TOO AND OMG>>> ITS STILL OVERHEATING... dammit it really is running hot... anyways im sure this thread is gunnaget locked soon soooooo

let's just all be friends

'91 Formula

iTrader: (1)

Do you have a 5.7 knock sensor or a 5.0 sensor?

When I did my 383 I just used the one that came ont he 305 and I was pulling timing on me in the upper RPM range. I ordered a knock sensor for a 350 and that solved the problem.

383backinblack

lol....its carbureted, it doesnt have a knock sensor

CrazyHawaiian

So how did it work out with .032 gap? What does the wideband read after 5000RPM? Its kinda weird how it only happens in the higher gears.

BTW, here is the link you requested earlier. Whats kinda funny is there's another link for you in that thread.

383backinblack

its still doing it, but now only above 6000rpm, which is 21-22psi then it breaks up........so it got better with the smaller gap, but apparently its not small enough so i'll have to re-gap it again.

it probably only happens in higher gears because its under a much heavier load

PS.....yup thats exactly what i remember that thread being

vwdave

All forums dedicated to racing are filled with morons. Southfloridaracing for example.....

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Quoting a number of different posts out of order but in an order that makes sense:

Um, do you notice that you’re the one making most of the noise in this thread? People are going to react to you on the ‘net based on how you act and what you say. Now I’m not saying this to pick on you, but go back and read what you’ve written in this thread and tell me how ANYONE else reading this isn’t going to perceive you as an arrogant, pompous idiot?

It isn’t working so throw money at it… you sure that you don’t own a ‘vette?

As far as your later comments about “an adjustment versus not knowing what parts are suited for a certain application...,” well, which is this? FWIW, the digital 7 is probably not a great choice here unless this is a race car that doesn’t see much street time.

Actually, that’s exactly what it is, a lack of knowledge. I don’t think that anyone that knew what they were doing would have even tried that gap and I don’t think that anyone that had a bit of a clue would have posted this without knocking down their gap significantly and testing it.

As far as what you _should_ do… leave the ignition like it is (assuming it is in reasonable repair now), and knock the gap down to around .020” like Saigon_Bob suggested and if it helps go from there. There are a lot of boosted cars out there that don’t play nice with gaps above the .022-.024” range with the best ignitions behind them. Also, if your gaps end up staying down in that range you may end up having to drop a heat range to compensate, but you already knew that, didn’t you? (why am I helping here?)

Well, apparently you’ve bought into the advertising crap but I’m not sure that you really know what it means. Even if that wasn’t the case you’re telling us that a 60% increase is not a big one?

Real world, results here depend more on matching the coil design to the ignition box’s output and to the load placed on the system by the application. The coil that will work best in your application with the 6 series box will not work best with the 7 series box, and for that matter, the 6 series has one of the wimpiest coil driver circuits of all the common ignition boxes, so your selection there is very pertinent to the box that you’re using to drive it (most of the coils that it will fire, the stock HEI module will fire and most of the ones recommended for most of the other boxes will not play nice long term with the MSD 6 series boxes).

And an engineering student also, huh? Wow… I hope that you are quickly promoted to management…. For that matter, I’m lost, where in this thread is anyone arguing sematics? I’m pretty sure that those that are saying that you suck mean you suck, I don’t see any devious wording to make it look like they’re trying to imply something different. I honestly don’t care, all I’m seeing is someone with a lot of attitude jumping all over a few people that generally try to be helpful and were trying to be helpful to you. If you wish to continue getting any kind of help from the people that have a clue around here I’d suggest you check the attitude.

Oh, and for the record, I’m usually the one around here and in a few other places that pisses people off telling them like it is.

Yea, but the ‘ick ignition setup is by far superior to a normal distributor/coil setup, and I would venture that the generally lazy ‘ick heads and the fact that you’re only firing 6 cylinders help the situation on both counts.

383backinblack

someone started BS in this thread, because i made an honest comment in another thread....don't see how thats my problem.

ummm......or it needed that ignition REGARDLESS because the msd 8977 controller can only handle 15psi of boost......so i needed a 7535 digital 7 with boost retard and a 3 bar map sensor so that the ignition could actually read how much boost the car was making........do you suggest i somehow make up for the lack of 15psi of boost measurement with zip ties?......if i was a corvette guy (and i hate those people with a passion) i would have given up after the first of about 100 instances where there was no part made, and i had to fabricate one from nothing......thanks for playing though

how do you figure? what ignition would you suggest seeing as you're clearly more versed in parts selection for MY combination than i am.......what ignition controller would you call "good for street use" on a carbureted non-efi supercharged engine? perhaps you should actually know what it is you're making snyde comments about, before doing so......as not to look like a bafoon.



if i was afraid that people would talk sh*t and/or think i was an idiot, i wouldn't post anything on any message board ever. However, i will admit i overestimated the power of the ignition system which we have already been over. I knew the gap was big, i set it that way on purpose because i didnt plan on running a significant amount of boost right away, which quickly became irrelevant. im used to working with alcohol boosted application with magnetos, and those are totally different and don't really apply here. The theory is the same, but the details aren't

reasonable repair? there was nothing wrong with it before, its just a different controller now.....what was that you were saying about being an arrogant *****? hello pot, have you met the kettle?



are you serious? i sincerely hope not......how is reading an output rating for a component buying into advertising crap.......and what does that have to do with understanding electrical principles? its obvious that you think you're talking to someone of inferior intelligence and I asssure you, you are seriously mistaken.

thats very true, and a valid point


I don't have an attitude problem, the only people that take issue with me, are people who are generally A-holes to start with.....which works out well. I get along fabulously with all the great holders of valuable knowledge.....how do you think i learned how to do all the things i can do these days? hmm, intetresting.......i'm not an engineering student, I have a BSBA with a concentration in IT from an AACSB accredited college, (with the like of babson, harvard, yale etc) i started college as an electrical engineering major and decided it wasnt the path i wanted to pursue. I run a small company thats doing very well right now, so thanks i promoted myself.

i find it interesting how all the people that end up with the neatest stuff are screwed with to the point where they just give up with web entirely. thats why you'll never see guys like preston smith on this board or any other board for that matter. The first thing he told me when i started building this setup is be prepared for the BS you're gonna get over it. Everyone is smarter than you are, and has the answer, and they're going to let you know it........apparently he was right.

I've been doing it for years dude, you're not special.

what is it that you have to show for all this superlative knowledge you possess anyways? what kind of hardware have you tested all your expertise on?......i'll make sure i post up the dyno numbes and track results for my S'box so you can choke on your own vomit.
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PS do a search and find some threads, there's plenty of them with pictures and tech info that show just how incapable and retarded i really am.....so you can see how inept i really am at building things

TurboedTPI

Funny, i had the same exact problem and at the same boost level. I run an accel 300+ box, but had the stock coil. I fixxed it by putting in a higher voltage coil and closing the gap to .020.

'91 Formula

iTrader: (1)

oops just noticed.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

HUH, that sounds like something that I said last night...


FWIW, the 300+ will fire a much hotter coil then an MSD 6, most of the newer solid state designs like the accel box, crane hi-6 and mallory have outputs closer to the msd 7 boxes

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

NON of the msd boxes have reliable boost retards, it’s not uncommon for people to check a year or so down the road and find that they actually aren’t getting any boost retard at all anymore.

Is this thing carbed or something, why are you doing something like this with a separate box anyway?

Heh… nice, keep going…

Crane Hi-6 TRS…

Yep, you’re an arrogant *****… not the words that I would have used but a fairly accurate description.

Oh my god, the world is coming to an end.

Heh, do you really want to start a pissing contest?

I’m done with posting anything useful till you start apologizing, particularly to some of the other people that were trying to help you here and you ripped into for no good reason.

383backinblack

considering i can monitor the retard on the laptop, i think i'll be fine

ya it is, i said that at least twice in this thread, perhaps if you weren't too lazy to actually read was going on you would have picked that up. why would i be using a totally seperate ignition control if it was EFI? remove your head from your **** cavity



oh ya....crane boxes.......had 3 of them that were inoperative directly out of the box......good investment.....i wouldnt buy a crane ignition box with monopoly money



apparently you didn't get that, not suprised







i'm sure i can survive without your input.....you have a better chance of seeing jesus christ than getting an apology from me........i didn't rip anyone that had pertinent information and wasn't a d*ck head
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PS......car is running mint now

Saigon_Bob

iTrader: (2)

theres too much to read but basically it was an easy answer tighten the gap up. Altough I maust say i'd prolly never run .050" gap on my N/A motor... shoot only my 3800 series II with DIS is near .050" and thats a DIS which has more saturation time for the coils.


Plenty of ppl hate MSD plenty love em... brand bias

this thread is a big ***** contest( small penises really though)

383backinblack

just like people that hate comp cams, or hate crane cams etc etc.

i could prove otherwise for your ***** argument, but i doubt you want to see that lol

askulte

Stop acting like children, throwing insults, or responding to them (and if you guys just like to get each other pissed off at each other, and revved up, do it somewhere else). I'm sure everyone thinks the other started it, so next time, ignore it, and go on like the name throwing didn't happen. No one else cares, points are not being tallied for a winner or loser of the message board insult wars, and $200 isn't awarded when you pass go. Nobody needs to jump on the band wagon, since it just keeps the dross going. The thread has good tech in it, so don't crap it up.

That being said... It sounds like a spark issue. I had the same thing when I attempted to run 15 psi on the stock HEI with an accel coil - .035 gapped spark got blown out at 3800 rpms (dyno chart showing the drop at http://www.carolinaautomasters.com/d...phs/Andris.JPG) and the car started breaking up. Also - make sure the power & ground cables are large enough for the ignition system & coil, so you don't artificially choke them at the higher rpms.

383backinblack

what are you getting for flow with the twin turbos?

askulte

I'm not sure I know what you're asking. They're two Turbonetics T04e's, and I could dig out my compressor maps if you're interested. It's a MAP based system, so I suppose I could estimate CFM based on rpm, horsepower & assumed volumetric efficiency. Boost level wouldn't be a good way to measure flow, since weak heads would raise the observed boost level (analogy would be blowing through a straw vs garden hose vs shop vac hose).

383backinblack

well a given compressor spinning at a given speed would have to produce a certain CFM.......obviously its harder to quantify with a turbo, because theres no mechanical link to determine the actual RPM of the compressor......but yes i was asking what CFM you think you're getting.