firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Hey guys, ahvne't posted here in a while, but as the new engine is near completion, I want to share

For the people that missed out on the origional turbo 660 (that's 60degrees with 6 cyls), I turbo'd a stock 3.1 only to have tuned improperly and spun a bearing. I then replaced the bearing, only to hit the rev limiter and the car sounded like a cannon going off. This time it crushed a rod bearing much like a penny on a train track

Anyways, back to the project.

I found a 1994 Camaro 3.4 shortblock and heads from a 2004 Malibu 3.5. Everything is getting ported/polished, it's getting cammed, MegaSquirted, and a few other things.

At first the engine will be running N/A with just over 11:1 compression and am expecting over 250hp, then the boost is going back on with a piston change (8.9:1). The rods are forged from the factory, and I have yet to find a failed 60* cast crank (even well over 400hp).

Even tossing around the idea of stroking by offset grinding a 3500 crank with it's bigger rod journals. A 3900 (3.9l) can actually be stroked/bored to a 263ci 60*, but that's a different thread.

Here are a couple of items that were recently delivered...


The Aeromotive fuel pump is good for 800hp under boost, and you all know what the Tial WG is.

Still have quite a bit to go until the turbo goes on, but here's the treatment of the motor thus far...

Mirror polished runners...





Everything gasket matched...

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

The heads before porting...





Test fit the heads to the block...



LS6 spring modified to fit the 3x00 heads (good for over .550 lift)...



Still have to work out the accy situation to make room for forward-flowing headers

Why not go with a V8? Simple, because I don't want to This car was bought and was going to get a SB swap, and decided to have some fun with a V6. My intention is to be the fastest 60*V6 in an Fbody, and currently only have one contender. He has a full 3400 Grand Am swap with a nice-sized turbo on board, and neither of us is driving yet.

Here is the inspiration...

http://www.intense-racing.com/movies/INTENSE_Fbody.wmv

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

This time this is going in before the turbo ...

86blackiroc

iTrader: (12)

You've never seen a failed 60* crank? I thought I had posted pics of mine (broke in half) on 60*v6. Of course, that was from no oil pressure and a spun bearing, lol.
----------
Also, what do you plan to do for a throttle cable?

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

I should have said post-1986, I have never seen a BROKEN crank, lol. I detonated with my turbo and spun a bearing, but there are several 60* stock cars that are seeing 7000+ RPMs for a good duration of the race, and they have only had micro-fractures shown with a magnaflux (thay had oil, though ).

I haven't gotten as far as the throttle cable just yet, but the Vortech truck cables are a direct fit, and are long enough to use a FWD TB that pulls from the front. If I go with the TCI 65mm TB (at $275, hard to justify), then they can be pulled from the rear, but the stock cable is still too short for it.

86blackiroc

iTrader: (12)

Now you've seen one It's even a large-journal too. I'm 86euro on the other site BTW, haven't been on there in a while though.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

That pic is going in my HD!!! Wow, that's a first, even with well over 400hp has been made on the 660's, I have yet to see something like that. I had detonation that would have killed most motors, but I didn't even hurt a piston, lol.

What site are you referring to? We are allowed to post links here. I'm ForcedFirebird/Forced_Firebird everywhere else.

EDIT: NM, I see you are on 60*v6 .

86blackiroc

iTrader: (12)

I got the car with the crank already broke. As far as I can tell, someone did an oil change and jacked the car up by the oil pan (I could see the marks on the pan). The oil pick up ended up flat against the bottom of the pan causing no oil pressure, spun bearing and then snapped the crank next to the spun main. The oil filter looked brand new

Oh, I was referring to 60degreev6.com

grimmcs

iTrader: (1)

Just found this thread, replying to add subscription.


^^^ Who would that be?

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

John from Texas (Driver_10 on 60*v6). It's a 4thgen with a full Grand Am 3400 swap. He also has a few other goodies on board like MS and coolant-cooled oil cooler, coated pipes, tubular k, a nice 5 speed tranny etc.

grimmcs

iTrader: (1)

Thats what I thought. Is he the one with the red UIM?

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Yep

Here's Driver_10's car...
http://60degreev6.com/showthread.php...ight=Driver_10

http://s141.photobucket.com/albums/r..._10/?start=all

SpitotRs305

first if you are in need of any parts... i have a very good supply of GM V6 parts... can get just about anything i can carry cheap send me a PM if you are looking for anything specail

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Eh, the block is almost ready for final assy...

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Looking good, man. Hard to believe that's the same block, cleaned up real nice.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Thanks! Got it stripped of the cam and crank today then bead-blasted the exterior, pressure washed it, and threw a coat of paint on it. Don't really like the color, but they only had silver, blue and red in 500* paint.

This block might not stay that long anyways, I'm basically using this engine now to test a top-end swap kit for the 3.4's that we are developing at the shop. Just found a good hook-up on 2005+ 3500 complete engines for less than what I paid for the 3.4 short-block could have had a tubular k and 3500. This thing should still make as much power as an LT1 with more than 100lbs less in the engine bay

While N/A it's going to have 11.5:1 compression, and who knows, maybe a couple of pounds of boost till it blows That is if I don't end up selling this turbo I have here.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Clevite 77 bearings and a .010" under reman crank...



Just got to get rings, cam, cam bearings, and an appropriate sized hone, then it's time to assemble!!!

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

That is coming along nicely. What cam are you going to run with the 11.5:1 CR?

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

I was thinking something like Purple82 TA used on his 3500 (315BHP, 13sec 1/4)...

http://www.3500z.com/3500/Cam-Valvetrain/camcard.jpg

but until the LS6 yellow springs are installed and checked for max lift, no solid decision has been made as of yet.

Got to finish porting, and need to purchase LS1 spring seats since it has been recently discovered using shims as seats allow the springs to walk around too much and can pull the seals off the guides (also see post #2)...







Thanks to Dave (Purple83 TA) for making this discovery.

BDR

subscribed

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Some exhaust port work...

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Here's the finished exhaust ports, they should flow pretty nicely

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Intake ports...

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Polishing the chambers and getting rid of sharp edges...

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

I thought the Franken60 was your inspriation?

BTW, you'll still be slower than my winter beater.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

You and Russel are the inspiration to do the aluminum head swap, Tim's car is the v6 f-body inspiration

We'll just see how slow it is when it's finished.

Got the new hone yesterday, cam bearing tool end of last week. All that's left to buy for assy is the rings. All the local stores are out of Sealed Power stock rings, and only had the chrome-moly and didn't see the need to spend that kind of money ($180) when these pistons are going to be comming out and replaced with 3400 (probably forged). Better rings will be used then.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Did you cut anything with carbides? It looks like you just cleaned up the ports with sanding rolls. The stock shape of the ports and heads are excellent. I don't see how much better you could get with carbides without welding in the ports. At that point you would need a flow bench.

Nice work. I wish the V8 junk I have had port shapes as nice as the pics you posted.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Thanks!!!

Some high-speed steel cutting was done to get the general shape at the port entrances, then blended in from there. Then just a light skim with the same tool was used to remove any pits, castin seems and imperfections. Then it was on to sanding. Exhaust ports went to 220 grit, and intake to 180. I made a tool out of wooden dowels with a slot cut in them to accept a strip of sandpaper (rolled in the direction of rotation). This helped get in the tight corners and close to the guides etc without damage.

The high speed cutter was also used in the chambers to make smooth radii around the spark plug holes as well, then they were sanded to 220 grit, and finally buffed with an abrasive wheel to a mirror shine.

The gasket surface on the head was then lightly sanded with 500 grit paper stuck to a nice flat piece of steel. They are also going on the surface table with jo blocks and surface guage to make sure they are nice and flat (I'm sure you are fimiliar with aluminum heads and their expanson/warping).

EDIT: I have been looking into building a flow bench using FlowQuik's design and meters. The only hang-up I have now is the fact that the meter is over $500 itself. There is a way to use a velocity meter and specific exit-port sizes to calculate CFM with less expensive equipment, but not as accurate as having a real flow bench type set up.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Worked on my engine finally for a little bit today instead of everyone else's, lol. Got another 3500 comming in tomorrow, and will be dissasembling/cleaning all day.
Got the cam bearings out...

And honed the cylinders...






Now I got to order the rings (hopefully tonight after the kids are in bed), and maybe this week the crank, cam bearings and oil pump will go in.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

It looks great. The hone was done on a machine by the looks of it. Why are the main caps not bolted on while it is sitting?

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Honed by hand.

No reason the caps aren't on. I know it's a boo-boo, just like the crank laying horizontal on the shelf. I'm bad about these kind of things on my own motor. Kind of like a cobbler's kid's not having shoes, the customr's stuff get's treated better then my own.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

That hone job by hand is one of the best I have seen. It looks like it was done on a machine.

I hear ya. I wear the worn-out shoes with holes in them in the garage. I hate when I have to do carbide burr cutting.....a sliver always seem to find its way in.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Thanks!

I always wear shorts living in FL, and it never fails that welding spatter wil land right behind the toung of my boots. I'm sure it's a funny sight watching me weld while shaking a leg, or dancing, trying to avoid a re-start Can't tell you how many pairs of socks have little black holes in them.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

It must be nice to be in shorts. A weldernator with a TIG torch would solve the spatter problem. Around here you spend most of the months with two pairs of pants to keep warm. What kind of turbo are you going to put on the engine? Those 6 ports probably flow the same as the 8 ports I have. Maybe a 70mm+ inducer?

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

So why is it bad to not have the main caps on the block?

Drac0nic

In theory when you hone the block you want the caps on and torqued because it will distort the bores. Pretty much the same reason you have a plate that you torque down to simulate a cylinder head.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Yep, I know that, it seemed that the questionable lack of main caps was stated more for storage, which I don't see a problem with. I didn't see any action shots of honing or boring the block, which is why I asked.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

When the block was dissasembled, the caps were left off during cleaning, and never put back on. They are off after honing because I thought I was going to be installing the crank that day, but didn't relize the time until the wife was calling, lol, but it has been sitting for about a month without them.

Like I said, the crank is on a shelf as well, also not advised.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Got the crank installed today after test-fitting a 3500 forged crank. The 3500 crank has rod journals .5" larger then the earlier blocks and wanted to check clearance for a future project.

I figure while I had the opportunity, to check the claim that the caps will distort a block. So, I got out the .0001" and .001" dial bore guages. There was anywhere from .0002" to .0008" distortion from the caps. While it is still a good idea to have them on while honing, I don't know if it's absolutely necessary. Boring without a doubd needs to have the caps on, but a standard boring rig is only accurate to about .0002" to start with.
- Just thought I would share.

Have the canter cam bearing pressed in, and found out tonight that I can use the wider SBC bearings (same outside diameter), so they might be comming back out.

Here's the crank bolted in (nothing exciting today, lol)...

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Got the cam bearings in after a slight snag yesterday, also the rods and pistons are done...

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Good progress. It is nice to see the dish pistons in there.....ready for more air to be packed in.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Those "dished pistons" are 8cc's, the chambers are 32.4cc's. That makes 11.5:1 SCR

The pistons replacing them will be 27cc's when it's time for boost

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Valve seats and some springs installed...


Heads snuged on, and the manifolds will be going on soon ...




Going to measure the max spring lift and now can get the cam.

More porting pics...





Forgot to take a pic with the valves installed. EasyOff works wonders on carbonized valves

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

.5613" is coild bind. We will see what happens with a .525" valve lift


Couldn't resist a good deal. Got these for $100. Now I have to spend more money for the adapting studs ($90), but gain adjustability and full roller rocker arms. The 3500's have non-adjustable roller-fulcrum and are steel...

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

It looks you are going for big HP with this setup. How streetable is it going to be? Have you picked out a cam for it?

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Yes big HP, I cruise with the car very little but would like to make it to the track 50 miles away.

280 adv dur, 231 dur @ .050, .525 valve lift, and 114.0 lobe sep 4* advance was my thought while N/A - and using a narrower LSA when the turbo goes back on. I'm hoping to make it to the V6 Southern Clash in March N/A and tearing up some 3800's Then the boost will be worked back out.

Desktop Dyno with this cam is showing 317hp @ 7000rpm.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Desktop dyno doesn't simulate turbocharging very accurately. Found that out a while ago when I was comparing it to engine analyzer pro. It tends to exaggerate torque as well. Really pissed me off when I found out I dished out all that cash for something so inaccurate.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

I was refering to N/A numbers and yes I said 317hp (250whp is the goal).

Dave (purple82ta) used DDyno to select his cam in a 3500 powered CaviZ, and came up with 350hp. The actual chassis dyno showed over 270hp and 291tq at the wheels (aprox 315bhp). This is an fairly accurate program as far as I'm concerned for N/A, especially seeing the cam supplier made a mistake on his grind - and the DDyno showed the reduction when the actual cam profile was entered.

Even with engine sims, it's hard to predict boost. Even the best turbo car builders use general rules to get close to calculated/projected output.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

It's pretty good with n/a simulations, but like I said it tends to exaggerate torque. Good to see some real world numbers verifying the program. So how close was it?

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Got the timing cover clearanced today.

Here's the interference...


Here's some shots after modification...




How does it look mocked up? I think the silver block is growing on me. Probably going to use a set of our polished valve covers to match the plenum (plenum is getting re-polished before install)...






Just wish I had a cam to put behind that timing cover, lol. Didn't have time today to call Delta, but by next week the cam and lifters will be here.
I think I may have decided to raise the compression a bit. The 3.4 gakets will give 12.33:1, but I am afraid the .030" clearance isn't enough after seeing Dave's valve/piston slap (.040" is ideal). The 3x00 gaskets and 3.4 piston-to-deck clearance will give ample room, but I don't know about keeping a .050" quench. 3400 gaskets will make 11.56:1, and 3500 gaskets will be 11.5:1.